Mozilla shilling Rust with conditional grants

c++ is shit but that doesn't stop everyone from using it and forcing you to use it too.

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That's a good reason actually. Why not lock out proprietary shit for once instead of always the other way around?

There's nothing wrong with shilling, as long as what you are shilling for is good.
There has been a consensus on Holla Forums that Rust is objectively superior to modern C++ (there wasn't even a debate with respect to C++ before C++14), due to its inherent safety and better thought out syntax and semantics.
Shilling for Rust is therefore not only a good thing, but it is a duty for anybody who cares about developing and maintaining performant and safe software.

C++ is only "memory safe" if you don't use mutables. Anyone who believes otherwise is an actively malicious fucktard who should stay far away from safety critical anything, because they believe their shit could not possibly stink. Stroustrup's model for type/resource safety is fucking useless, btw.

People who like to believe that all of their static analysis, test frameworks and modern C++ safety patterns mean that they could not possibly have any memory safety violations lurking are ignorant enough to be actively malicious. There is no other explanation.

Go on openbsd-misc and tell Theo it's his duty to rewrite everything in Rust.
I dare ya.

systemd

Theo has earned his right to troll faggots, I'm not going to come in there with weak bait and shit up his mailing list. But even Theo will agree that it's stupid to suggest that there's no memory safety violations in his base system, even with all the work they've done.

You're a idiot, that consensus does not exist and you're just shilling a shit language.

C and python are superior to all.

They'd be better off using Lisp or Forth. Because at least those are mature and have ISO standards and high portability. We don't even know wtf Rust is going to be like in next build.

People talk about Rust and C++ as if Rust wasn't made as a byproduct of experienced C++ developers going "This is shit and needs to stop"

There are experienced c++ users going for less instead of more. "More of what?" you might ask?

Check up all the new stuff c++ adds to their standard each year to appeal to kids like you. Now look at how game programmers, the people that actually needs performance ignores it no matter how much you squeal and would like otherwise.

I remember reading some thread,not sure if emscripten ir wasm, where the support of pointers was being discussed. And idiots that were all like "enforce smart pointers, and make sure raw pointers are not supported"

This kind of mentality eludes me, first, because they think their two or three approaches to managing memory should suffice for everything, second because they believe somehow to be the bearers of true programming.

Theres endless capacity for brainless people to think that their choices are better, and so, you end with people suggesting more restricted languages, more obtuse sintax, more types of pointers. Eventually, you get rust.

Ayy. From what I've gathered, Common Lisp is useless without any extensions.

I can give them half a dozen reasons to stick with C++:

~ $ eshowkw hunspell llvm | egrep '^K| [~sparc] ' | catKeywords for app-text/hunspell: | a a p s a n r | n | | l m h i p p r m m i i s | e u s | r | p d a p a p c a x m i 6 o s 3 | a s l | e | h 6 r p 6 p 6 r 8 6 p 8 s c 9 s | p e o | p | a 4 m a 4 c 4 c 6 4 s k 2 v 0 h | i d t | o 1.3.3 | + + + + + + + + + ~ ~ o o o o ~ | 5 o 0 | gentoo 1.3.4 | ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ o o o o ~ | 6 o | gentoo 1.4.2 | ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ o o o o ~ | 6 o 0/1.4 | gentoo 1.5.4 | ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ o o o o ~ | 6 o 0/1.5 | gentoo 1.6.0 | ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ o o o o ~ | 6 # 0/1.6 | gentoo[I]1.6.1-r1 | ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ o o o o ~ | 6 o | gentooKeywords for sys-devel/llvm: | a a p s a n r | n | | l m h i p p r m m i i s | e u s | r | p d a p a p c a x m i 6 o s 3 | a s l | e | h 6 r p 6 p 6 r 8 6 p 8 s c 9 s | p e o | p | a 4 m a 4 c 4 c 6 4 s k 2 v 0 h | i d t | o3.5.2 | o ~ ~ o o o o o ~ ~ o o o o o o | 5 o 0/3.5 | gentoo3.6.2 | o ~ ~ o o o o o ~ ~ o o o o o o | 5 o 0/3.6 | gentoo3.7.1-r3 | o + + o o o o o + ~ o o o o o o | 6 o 0/3.7.1 | gentoo3.8.1 | o ~ ~ o o o o o ~ ~ o o o o o o | 6 o 0/3.8.0 | gentoo3.8.1-r2 | o ~ o o o o o o ~ o o o o o o o | 6 o | gentoo3.9.0-r1 | o ~ o o o o o o ~ o o o o o o o | 6 o 0/3.9.0 | gentoo3.9.1 | o ~ o o o o o o ~ o o o o o o o | 6 # 0/3.9.1 | gentoo3.9.1-r1 | o + o o o o o o + ~ o o o o o o | 6 o | gentoo4.0.0-r1 | o ~ o o o o o o ~ ~ o o o o o o | 6 o 4 | gentoo

This isn't shilling, it's bribery. It makes sense for Mozilla to do that but it's still absolutely Microsoft tier.

You could randomly remove features from C++ and end up with something better, doesn't mean everybody has to use Rust. Ever since systemd and Wayland this "if you don't like our shitty replacement you can only love the current state of affairs" shit has gotten pestilential and it's seriously beginning to piss me off.

You're full of shit.

Sure, they don't use these tactics to the same degree, but they certainly do use them. Honestly, you could lump in the entirety of FDO with these two.

Give me an example of Wayland developers doing that.

Don't use such offensive lies. Works for hire is not bribery. Mozilla is not a government official nor a third part mediator of any kind.

Did you miss the shitfest that was X/Wayland/Mir?

What the fuck are you talking about? X11 was a bloated pile of legacy cruft, so some X11 developers got together and worked on a replacement. Then Canonical tried working on their own display server that absolutely no one liked (not even other Ubuntu flavours) and kept at it for several years before giving up entirely.
Explain how that's in any way similar to the tactics used to push systemd.

Are only governments or "third party mediators" able to bribe now? On that note, who would even be the third party in this situation?

Hunspell applied for a grant to rewrite their shit in C++. Mozilla granted it but promised them extra money if they rewrite it in Mozilla's experimental language instead (changing the goal), which would lock out their competitor as described in (i.e. it changes the goal to Mozilla's benefit). How the fuck is that not a bribe? It seems to me like you are only opposed to calling it a bribe because the word has bad connotations. The substance is the same.

I didn't notice that part when I replied. The developers aren't the biggest problem (well, except in the case of systemd), the fanboys are. I don't believe the faggots who spam every thread on Holla Forums, Plebbit and Hackerjews with "USE RUST SAFEST LANGUAGE NO BUGS EVER" are Rust developers either. They still make sane discussion impossible. During the X/Wayland/Mir thing you couldn't ever criticize Wayland without getting shit in the vein of "move on gramps, X is deprecated and Mir is shit" as if you said you wanted X forevermore, or — God forbid — the shitpile that was Mir.

The way it works is: whatever those guys touch will become a pile of legacy cruft. X was a lot simpler before they started fucking it up with their bullshit extensions, in an attempt to turn Linux into Windows clone.

Wayland required display server specific patches to be added to upstream Mesa and DRM code to work. These were handwaved through; the same developers have commit access to all the repos.
Mir required less intrusive patching, in most cases to work around bugs in the shitty Intel drivers. These all got rejected for (((reasons))).

sure it does. being anti-rust is just a meme. how new are you?

mind posting any examples?
blog.rust-lang.org/2014/10/30/Stability.html

X has always been horrifying. This book has a lot of pre-Linux rants.

False 1)This is a work for hire. If Mozilla proposed that job to me, I would implement Hunspell in Rust. I'm confident that if I asked for it, they'd offer me that job. 2) Free software means no competitor is locked out. If it is free software, then Google or KDE, or Apple or anybody else with a copy of Hunspell-Rust is free to take it and use it.

X was a lot more useless because its featureset was designed for outdated network scenarios and trivial GUI designs. The reason why they put in X11 extensions is because these were the exact features that developers needed today in a way that's compatible with the X11 protocol.

I always thought freetards of the "it's free software, if everything is theoretically possible everything is easy and free gratis" variety were memes and didn't actually exist. Just because you never write more than a bunch of fizzbuzzes in Holla Forums's flavor of the month language doesn't mean language dependencies are free, especially when the language in question is directly controlled by your competitor.

Nuh-uh isn't an argument. Who gives a shit about what you'd do if Mozilla offered you money?

The point is that Mozilla has no involvement of any kind of bribe. The point is that the so-called "bribery" is actually a work for hire.

Nobody is claiming that free software is easy. I like to make it clear that software development is not a trivial process. This means that software development is inherently expensive. This means integrating software code into your own software is also inherently expensive. I never claim that free software is cheap. I always claim that those who do not invest into free software have no entitlement to bitch about other people's investments into free software.

Is there any chance you'll address my point or should we stop before you repeat the same phrase until the thread is full?

I'm not sure what point you want addressed. I'm just trying to address the allegation about Mozilla's bribery.

Did you complain when Microsoft fucked with their OEM key prices to prevent pre-installed Linux? How dare you if you neither make an OS nor sell hardware? This is a load of shit and you know it.

Sorry for quoting Wikipedia like a redditor, but I want you to address that what Mozilla is doing fits the definition of bribery to a T.

You need to keep going.

>Bribery is defined by Black's Law Dictionary as the offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of any item of value to influence the actions of an official or other person in charge of a public or legal duty
Emphasis is mine. Bribery involves some kind of public office or being an officer with a legal duty. Mozilla are not acting in these roles in their offer to port Hunspell to Rust.

jesus can you both pls stop derailing this thread with your autism?

No, not really. I complained when I couldn't get a refund for rejecting the Windows license that I bought with my computer. The result was that I got refunded cash for rejecting the EULA.

You need to understand that free software is inherently different to proprietary software. In the case of proprietary software, users are forbidden to control the software. The only action users can take to change the software is to beg to the owner of the software for goodwill for some specific change. Free software is not the same. In free software, users always have the right to improve and share the software. Users who have not invested into the software they use have no right to bitch that developers won't work for them. They will always be free to hire developers and thus, they will be entitled to demand a certain performance for that software.

I'm not going to sue Mozilla over it, m8. People talk about freedom of speech without meaning the constitutional right all the time.

Come on man, we are actually sperging about the thread topic for once.

Well, at least you're consistent, though now I'm not sure what your point is. "You may only criticize X if you do X" is still bunk.

So you're using the term "bribery" as loosely as Holla Forums uses "cuck" and "faggot". This is the reason why I was confused: you're using a changed definition to how it is supposed to be.

My point is that I'm complaining about users who are acting as entitled freeloaders whenever they complain about free software. For these kind of people, they are "all talk and no action".

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Who are you quoting?

X worked fine to make all manner of scientific programs, even medical imaging and NASA applications. That was before those idiots tried to "improve" it so it can be a Windows clone. Because that's what they always wanted from the beginning: to make Linux into a Windows clone. They never even liked Unix to begin with. Now they have subverted your Linux, and XFree86 became a pile of shit so you can play "muh games" at 120 fps and have stupid desktop fancy shits that don't make the OS any better but needs fucking botnet GPU.
"Muh games"
"Muh compositor"
"Muh tearing" (probaly his ass)

Stallman? Is that you?

He's quoting you, obviously.

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lel

t. webdev monkey

ok kiddo

t. pajeet

If you think Holla Forums's overuse of cuck is in any way comparable to not using a common word according to its meaning in the American legal system (which often defines words in unusual ways), you are legitimately retarded. This better be a troll.

gb2/prog/

Are you retard?

Shut up Cudder.

It's no wonder they chose C++ instead.

Why do Rust shiteaters need to lie in order to push their meme language? Could it be that it's not as great as they promise, and they know it?

holy fuck

Bribery is defined by Black's Law Dictionary as the offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of any item of value to influence the actions of an official or other person in charge of a public or legal duty.

Gifts of money or other items of value which are otherwise available to everyone on an equivalent basis, and not for dishonest purposes, is not bribery. Offering a discount or a refund to all purchasers is a legal rebate and is not bribery.

That was probably buried somewhere in the fine print.

Could retards like you just fuck off? I'm really tired of reading your autistic shitposts about "muh red hat" "muh rust" "muh guhnome"

Theyre severely insulted and memed in every thread to the point they cant discuss shit. The opposition is simply too clear. But then they always claim to have won, to have reception etc. Its clear they want to meme their imagined superiority into reality. Even if it comes at the expense of shoving sjw coc and cock down everyome throaths

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at the expense of unconventional sintax and unwelcome politics. I'm quite aware of what rust gives and it's simply not enough in exchange of what demands.

As a person that has been victim of sjws in meatspace I can't even let them an inch of breathing space. Their code of conducts doesn't apply to them and their horrible behaviour. Do wathever you want, they will eat you alive when its convenient, and you can't even imagine when the situation will arise.

Their code of conduct also don't apply to your projects.
cuck

I think Rust is the way to go. Compile times right now are a bit fucked, but it's going in the right direction no matter whether you like it or no.

i think they are tolerable. not really worse than c++.
incremental compilation is being worked on and can be tested with the nighly compiler. internals.rust-lang.org/t/incremental-compilation-beta/4721
last release they also added cargo check. blog.rust-lang.org/2017/03/16/Rust-1.16.html

Nice! I've already begun rewriting some of my smaller projects in Rust. Also happy to see cargo check.

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damn you convinced me. im going back to c. fuck memory and thread safety.

Why does Rust's COC affect you? Are you contributing patches to the Rust compiler?

"First they came for X and since I wasn't X I didn't care."

This is what It all boils down to. Sjw like to feign to be minorities, victims, and having not power and being reasonable... until they actually have any kind of ability to make choices for you.

While It's true that COC isn't enforced by Rust developers, it's community goes around not only trying to convince everyone to "rewrite it in rust!" but also trying to suggest that big projects use COC too.

So, write a project that becomes big enough, (and I'm not talking big, but just enough visible) and you will be faced with the choice of assuming coc or having someone start spreading rumours about how bigoted you're even if you are a minority in a third world country.

The easiest solution is to simply refuse to support any technology that submits to COC before it's too late.

Other than that, I've been personally affected by sjw(sexually assaulted) and I've seen how suddenly their "It's just being polite, duh" doesn't apply to them. Suddenly, for being the wrong type of victim you should apologize.

COC are nothing but a political tool to gain and mantain power in ceirtain spheres, ignoring it with smug rolleyes "I don't see it, nu-uh" is all fine and dandy. However, by sjw nature YOU or someone YOU cherish will eventually be a victim at some point. Either the rules will bend to cover an agressor that is part of the clique, or rumours will be casted over your behaviour so you're put aside so a "better thinking person" takes your place.

It doesn't matter if COC aren't strictly viral in paper, since the community behaviour is unforgivable and dangerous.

and obviously, if I were to choose to contribute to rust I wouldn't be able, since COC is against people that question COC at all. I don't see why use a language I'm forbidden to contribute too. I don't like being a mouthpiece for ideologies that I detest.

I use Python, Java, C++ and Scheme. I've never felt the need to contribute anything to the languages. I've never felt the need to talk with the language designers. All I've done is download the compilers and read the documentation about language syntax.

This is a non-reply.

You also never felt the need to make your own language. So, why don't you question rust creators then?

The whole problem with rust, it's not really even a suggestion to try their shit, but rather a squeal, a demand to think exactly like them.

"I can't even fathom that you feel, and think and have experienced things different than me, use rust now damn! contribute to my hegemony so we can make MY things!"

I have no reason to question the Rust creators. Rust either does its job or it doesn't do its job. When it works, I will use it. When it doesn't I'll move on.

I know nothing about this because I don't bother thinking or reading anything like it. All I do is read the syntax documentation and API documentation.

how about fuck you?

I know nothing about this because I don't bother thinking or reading anything like it. All I do is read the syntax documentation and API documentation. And post everyday in several sites about it so people start using it. And pestering people that didn't like it.

Fixed that for you.

didn't read lol

If a project wastes time and resources on shit like codes of conduct, that's a clear sign the project('s management) is going to hell. This has technical consequences, too. SJW shit is not the only thing that smells about Rust, but together with everything else it's enough to disregard the project. Remember when they put a fucking RAILSTARD into a high position in a systems programming language? Remember when they excommunicated an actual expert who bitchslapped them around every time they fucked up badly (e.g. when their style guidelines included such gems as "use the fixint size you feel is right") because wah wah muh toxicity?

There's a difference between "there are cockroaches" and "cockroaches run the show". When's the last time you saw a project run by cockroaches that didn't turn into shit shortly thereafter?

I'd love to see any citations about this.

He is also talking about socialism I think, dont worry, this time, with rust it wil be different

Sounds like something a shill would say....

Codes of conduct are necessary to avoid a community to spiral into a pile of shit like this one.

filtered

Holla Forums is shit because the posters are grown up scriptkiddies.

And yet when i was sexually assaulted it was a sjw code of conduct the one that protected my agressor.

Coc is a tribal inside clique pushing device, it is used to replace native elements with foreign ones.

Any coc that bases itself on presumption of guilt will be misused by those in power and by their fans to protect one of their own instead of actual victims. This will happen most often than not, since the grievances that it is meant for actually fight arent real either.

The only thing you need for the coc to be misused in your favor is to draw yourself as a more valid victim. If your morals dont allow you to do this, youre not useful and will be excluded.

And they actually admit it at last. If people like us governs, you cansay drivel like this. But if people like YOU governs? How long until we are labeled bigits and banned?

OH HO HO HO HO HO HO

doned

what the fuck is it?

legit.png
What project?

why the fuck does it even relate to any project?
it's police's job to sort it out.

Arent you coc supporter required to not ask and just complain?

Of course that doesnt work when the ideologically clique authority might be hurt, then you do have to investigate and get all the facts, dont you?

Believe wathever you want. Im no giving no more details since I was forced to stay shut thanks to ideologically driven jerks contacting my bosses.

Unless every witness is ideologically driven and you know they dont possibly see you as a victim of assault to the point theyre going to lie about it.

Had too many problems thanks to sjws, not gonna give any detail.

Why do have coc in the first place if thats the case? Any real harassment online should suffice to call the police if there actual harassment and not just dissent.

The COC is the document that explicitly describes the type of behavior that's expected when contributing work to the project. It's stricter than what is permitted by law.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I want to know how your sexual assault is correlated to Code of Conducts and social justice warriors.

COC is less strict than the law. And allows for moderation to abuse under the guise of following the rules.

You don't get a fair trial under COC, you can't even question a penalization, you're expected to comply or be excised from the community.

This is not "strict" this is just "We request to have a moderation team aligned with our ideology" and "we want to label breach of our ideology as harassment so everyone knows that going against us is a sin"

Social justice warriors don't see white cis males as possible victims of sexual assault.
So they will claim such thing didn't happen.
And even being witnesses of the thing happening, if the agressor claims to actually be the victim, or claims that acussations are actually harassment, they will support the new politically correct victim rather than the "wrong" victim.
This is not a hard to understand acussation, you might not agree with it. But you can't claim to have no idea what I'm saying.
The social scenario that sjw make around you is several times worse than the actual attack.
Also, I don't admit the possibility that you can't come up with any explanation of how the coc seeps into meatspace, you're feigning ignorance in purpose to make me leak any kind of detail that will allow you to report me. It will not work.

Are you a markov bot?

Words are defined by their common usage unless mutually agreed otherwise, you low-functioning autist.

Fixed.

If you have bad compile times in c++ you're not coding well, and this is something people seem to purposedly ignore. Don't bloat your headers, don't abuse templates. Simple as that.

If you use bubble sort and you expect the compiler to magically know what you're doing it and write faster code YOU are the one on the wrong. The machine is doing exactly what you asked for.

M8, the standard headers and almost every big C++ library are bloated in this way. You can't get around it.

Go has more chance of success then Rust.

(You)

So you're saying that bribery is synonymous to employment?

Your hallucination is noted.

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Which is full of shoehorned political correctness.

you don't go around editing the standard, so it doesn't add up to compilation times. You don't put stuff in the headers that isn't needed. You don't do templates trying to prepare for the future for cases that will simply not happen or you can't truly predict how they will end up being implemented.

And, well, C++ still applies to different styles, here at work we cut that shit before that even happens and it simply works like a charm. It depends on what you're programming. The gist is that if you go out and don't make sure the rest of your team agrees to do things in a certain fashion it matters very little what language you use, it'll end up being shit.

Look at the boost library and you can see exactly how C++ shouldn't be used.

archive.is/2014.04.28-125041/http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_55_0/libs/geometry/doc/html/geometry/design.html

The document should have ended at "Quite simple, and it is usable". The rest of the document is the rambling of a misguided autist, even if c++ could work like that, the end result is an overcomplicated mess.

I have to add. Disregarding languages, go take a look at any DOD speech by Mike Akton.

Most of the problems we suffer everyday are because of overcomplicated code that doesn't lay the things correctly neither for humans nor the machine. And this applies to any language.

What the fuck am I reading? Of course complexity in the official headers adds up; just because it's standardized doesn't mean it's free, it just means you can't avoid it. And yes, if there are templates in the headers (more often than not there are because C++ is getting boostified more and more), compilations are going to be expensive.

I agree that Boost is the reification of everything wrong with C++, but what does that have to do with anything? You don't have to use Boost to get bad compilation times, look at any big C++ project like LLVM.

Again I agree, but it applies to C++ in particular because the language itself is an offender. I'm sure a program can do stupid shit in C headers that blows up compilation time, but your compilation time won't blow up just because you use . In C++, this is not so.

Ok, it *isnt free*. But the ammount they add shouldnt matter because 99% of the time not even the standard library should be added to headers.

And yes, skimming through llvm headers I can see already what are most probably unneeded bload in the includes.

I dont think the language itself is a particular offender rather than other languages not being as expressive nor paradigm free. You might prefer in some cases not having that freedom but it certainly has its values in all the levels.

Terrible programmers will produce shit redundant code no matter the language. Having a language that makes it hard to make mistakes might let terrible vices fester and people with really wrong and counterproductive ideas advance without being ever corrected. Just look at web ecosystems, with their managers of managers of managers to solve what should be simple problems.

All that shit was possible thanks to meme diaper languages. Now imagine that insanity being dragged to the lower levels.