How do you, personally, view the people who work within the security apparatus...

...

I think you misread my post. If push came to shove, it's the cops who would be teargassing us and shit, not the soldiers. They're the ones who, on a daily basis, subjugate people under the boot of the capitalist State and protect the capitalists' private property.

It is possible that there might be someone who decided to become a cop because they had no other choice, but there are far easier ways to make a living than being a cop. Becoming a cop requires going through the academy, and that shit takes time. Like, I'm talking months, maybe even a year, of no payment. And being a cop isn't even close to being a lucrative job. People who become cops are people who want to be cops - and usually people who want to be cops are pieces of shit. I know this from personally knowing someone who went through it, and I also know that even if you have someone who goes through the academy and becomes a cop with the mindset of being a "good cop", it doesn't fucking matter. That environment is corrupting. It's like saying that a politician can be a "good politician"; even if they remain true to their beliefs, the simple fact is that they're fighting against a system that is itself oppressive - within that very same system. It just doesn't work.

Think before you post with your Leninist smugness next time.

That's really interesting, but I don't know how in the hell anyone would ever be able to reach out to people who are in the CIA or FBI. Though if you're right about that, they'd certainly be an asset.

"Spy" is honestly more a personality type than a trained skillset. The CIA even admits that a handful of Case Officers recruits 80% of its agents. To be a successful Case Officer requires a high degree of empathy, particularly when recruiting agents in other cultures. The stress of having to weaponize that empathy causes a high rate of burn out, and the agency has mostly been taken over by the scions of bourgeoisie and petite bourgeoisie families along with neo-cons. They can't really do shit without the lefties though.

The enlisted and low-level employees are the first, the officer corps and senior people are the second.

bump

...

More or less.

Also is Kuze Holla Forums approved?

Depends on the type of "security worker" in question, though I'll give a bit of insight based on my personal experiences with such groups.

Military tend to be a mixed bag. You have a lot of lupenproles who live and breath "muh nation, muh heritage" and will die at the behest of the bourg state with little hesitation and little ability to convince them otherwise. "Junior partner" may be giving them a bit too much credit in the degree by which they are allowed to participate. They could be best described as indoctrinated cannon-fodder; people that are deserving of pity, though are unlikely to accept mercy. They get the wall.
Then you have people who join up because they think they're doing good by their community, and either end up like the group I mentioned earlier, or become incredibly disenfranchised with the experience. These are people that may well jump ship should an alternative arrives that seeks to liberate themselves and others from such conditions, making them prime candidates by which we might find support and solidarity.
Lastly are those who went into the military because they were enticed by the benefits the state grants through service. Usually this means that they had few prospects before going in, and thus already suffer from severe alienation. Assuming they don't become "career military" when the skills and experiences they acquire prove useless on the outside, they likewise have the potential to jump ship when the opportunity for better arises. They're participation in the system is one that is born out of necessity rather than ideology, thus they should be seen as something the left should seek to protect and rescue.

Cops I've seen tend to come in two flavors. The first are those who go into the job because they want an opportunity to hold SOME position of power over others. These ones are literal jackboots of the capitalist state and should be lined up against the wall at the earliest convenience. They get the wall.
Then you have those who are deluded enough to believe that their work is a "great service and sacrifice" to their community. At best, this means they become well-meaning lupenproles. At worst, they devolve into the former category. Regardless of outcome, they're almost always too indoctrinated by bourg ideology to be anything but an impediment to a revolutionary and post-revolutionary society.

Private security almost always consists of people who KNOWINGLY thrive on some of the worst offenses of capitalist oppression both domestically and abroad. They have no cares about "common good," and they're skills usually are applicable in a myriad of other occupations outside private security. They get the wall.

And last but not least is intelligence: a sector consisting of people who will step on the rights, well-being, and lives of anyone who looks at them funny. Among the mechanisms that support the great capitalist machine, workers in the intelligence community make up those parts that are welded to the very framework of the machine. They get the wall.

So the long and short in your summation is:

Cannon fodder or unfortunate proles.

Lumpenprole at best and vicious thugs at worst.

Evil fuckers doing evil shit in the hopes of becoming petite bourgeois.

Junior partners? Something else?

permanentsocialism.wordpress.com/

This used to have a shitton of critical analysis of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex from a leftist standpoint, but they marked it private. I will try to find some material I saved.

Basically they said that Kuze is just another bourgeois self-inserter into the struggles of the refugees, having no lived experience from the point of view of the refugees. It's like Maoists and Che fantards autistically criticizing Regis debray for pointing out that foquismo failed due to tactical and strategic considerations.

Nailed it pretty much.
There is said to be a revolving door between intelligence analysts in the public and financial analysts in the private sectors. Both have an overlap of skillsets.

archive.is/9mr6U
samefag but found something here

I'll tell you something for free. Spying runs in families. The first place that intelligence agencies go to recruit new blood is their own blood, then top college candidates, then people who cut their teeth in the military. Spies in the family go back for generations for some people.

I hate their fucking guts. As someone who's been interested in militaria since childhood, and interacted through the internet with military types for over a decade, I am confident in saying that they are the most spooked, fanatical, hateful, violent, reactionary, generally unpleasant people around. They live and breathe anticommunism, and are wholly committed to protecting and perpetuating the dominance of the state and ruling interests. They're also "culture warriors," driven to fight against anyone or thing that doesn't conform to their warped personal ideologies and prejudices.

If you want an honest window to the ideology of the typical american soldier, read Chris Kyle's book. They're proud invaders, occupiers, destroyers and murderers, holding onto their flags and bibles like grim death.

Sounds like you met the worst of the worst.

I don't. I hate the institution, not the brainwashed people who are wage slaves in it.

they work for a living, they are proles. I won't get into more detail, you'd know enough if you read Marx.

I'm largely indifferent to them until the chips are down and they're standing in the way of a better society.

This. Anyone who's been on a military website and read what these people really think will realize that most people in the US military are literally the scum of the country.

...

bump

No way, they are an essential part of capitalist reproduction, nothing vestigial about that

Basically this. They don't even try to hide it behind anything more noble. Now I don't really KNOW but I think that this hate is mostly for white military members, but there are definitely loads of poor minority members. How bad is racism among the rank n file or is race literally forgotten in the face of the Nation?

Good luck converting people in the security and intelligence communities after decades of public grandstanding (in America, anyway) with choice themes such as "fuck da police," "the CIA is le ebul! remember Allende," "fuck the troops," "babykillers," and so on.

The "fuck the pOlice" is edgy anarkid BS.

CIA cannot become revolutionary.

The army is prols. We need to raise class con in them.

So is this what Marxists think of proles when it comes down to it?

Just look at these posts. This is pretty clear what the average radical leftist thinks of people in the military. It's also why the possibility of violent revolution is going to be castrated by the rhetoric of jumped-up college-educated young 'adults' who can talk big about cracking people's skulls on the pavement yet have never been in a fight in their lives having spent 12 years in preparatory schools. That's not meant to be inflammatory, by the way, that's just what I'm seeing.

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Yes. Because clearly Marxism, the ideology associated with authoritarian mass-murderers is in no way shape or form edgy.

...

See? Memes are annoying.

pls end dis meem

I was a cavalry scout in the military, deployed for a year, now a marxist.

Free to answer any questions before any dumb fuck teenagers want to make sweeping statements that come from their starfish and not experience.

I see.
The fact that Marx is popularily associated with totalitarian murderers is just a meme.
It's a bourgeoisie lie, and when people see Marx in no way shape or form is the USSR the first thing that pops up inside their heads.

Do you… do you really wear those spurs in the field?

Kinda both. Most people today are for the status quo, but individuals in themselves aren't the enemy.
Security apparatus is exactly that (an apparatus), so the debate of whether attacking security workers means attacking working class is dumb: what is attacked is the apparatus itself. But today any such attack is automatically "terrorism", while the left dissolved into impotent pacifism long ago anyway.

We wore them around the quad on Friday's if that works.

Why is your evolution of the cavalary, tanks, like every normal country?

:^)

*not tanks

The conflation of Marxism with Stalinism is the meme I want ended

Do you mind me asking what country you served? Also, what percentage of your fellow soldier would you say are more interested in protecting the people rather than State self-interest? If a revolution were to come about, how many would be reasonable enough to consider our views?

The problem with Marxism isn't any supposed "totalitarianism" (which really is a liberal propaganda) but its self-limitation to the domain of political economy.
And I don't see anyone (outside of this board) who is a Marxist out of desire to be edgy.

I don't see Marxism being strictly political economy as a bad thing. People should get their philosophy from better philosophers on other subjects tho, Marx was pretty shit outside of political economy tbh.

US Army.

I'd put the number at 99% (people who would protect the people in a situation of government vs. the people). Ultimately what a lot of people who talk about "hurr durr, robots of the bourgeoisie" forget is that these are cousins, brothers, sons, daughters, sisters that enlist and commission. None of the dudes I did my time with (combat arms, the especially conservative and somewhat republitard section of the Army) would ever, ever fire on a civilian. The 1% are just crazy, whacked out assholes who say edgy shit like "I can't wait to kill me some hajji's". But those 1% are fucking everywhere.

If a revolution came about…I mean, I don't even know where to begin there. Who knows what the fuck would happen. But I would probably guess that if that ever happened, the military wouldn't be the tool the state would deploy (given what I just said about the 99% of people I did time with not harming American citizens). We would have to worry about the police, FBI, etc. Those are the people who are explicitly trained to fight civilian elements, and what I just said about cousins, family etc go right out the window when we talk about civilian police forces.

What are you asking? That question sounded dumb.

The Romans used to kept the military as a largely separate populace from the civilians so that they could be turned upon them if need be. In a nation with citizen soldiers it's Feds, who often go from sheltered homes to Ivory Towers to muh privileged and well compensated public service, who are kept separate to be turned upon the populace if need be.

Personally I respect the army far more than the police (the private armed forces of the bourgeoisie). No civilized society can survive without a professionally armed force today. There are good people in the army that don't make up the brain-dead "joined to kill sandniggers" group. The army is also a means to stop a fascist take over, if it were to happen.

This is why the prokies want to remove gun ownership so much in the US, they know if an uprising happened, the army may not be entirely loyal to them, so law enforcement would be the way to crush any dissent, so no guns=no real opposition.

In Europe Cavalry became Tanks.
In US it became Airborne.

And it is dumb.

In general, the police is far more dangerous in modern western world.
They don't NEED to become cops.
They have too much fun being in power.
They have no actual threat, while soldiers in combat zones are under constant threat.
They more afraid of the people, than servants or helpers of the people.

And this is why a Police State is more possible dictatorship than a Junta.

lol what are you talking about. Cavalry becomes airborne? Did you miss the part where I said my job was a cavalry scout, not an airborne infantryman?

they are the tools that capitalism uses to enforce itself. any army/police force that doesn't serve the people but serves to capitalists, is itself an enemy of the people

B-but…. I thought… .. then why did our Cavalry become tanks???

… And I had to wake up half an hour earlier before infantry does, during conscription…

…

I'll never get how the modern army works…

I don't know if you were asleep during your "conscription" or are lying, but cavalry in first world militaries have not gone away. Armored personnel carriers serve as modern cavalry. Every modern military, from the Bradley Fighting Vehicle (USA) to the Russian BMP has cavalry arms.

you are a paid murderer, hired to fight bourgeoisie imperialistic wars. you were not conscripted, you joined with your own free will the ranks of the mass murder machine that is the us military.

so don't claim to be a marxist you fucking pig.

Well… Greece only has light tanks, so.. … this is our cavalry… … M60s…

And I still thought the airborn got that role in US. Thanx.

I grew up in an orphanage you piece of shit middle class hipster. It was my only way out, either that or behind metal bars. So you can suck my cock, I'm not ashamed of anything I did. We built a school, provided medical care, and provided security for local infrastructure projects.

Tell me more about your middle class lifestyle and why you're a "real Marxist".

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Don't mind him, there is a lot of stigma surrounding the US army due to Afghanistan/Iraq war (justifiably so) but then again the army can be a progressive force in a lot of cases.

Even if the army is part of the imperialistic war machine, the soldiers themselves can show class consciousness and even oppose the state.

Their muh privilege shows when they fail to realize that for the poor and the working class there are often few good jobs available outside of the military, which will pay to train and house you out of its own pocket as long as you serve their interests.

You've heard the term "Limousine Liberal", no?

i've been living in poverty you cannot imagine since i was 13 you murdering piece of shit

i don't care where you grew up, i don't care what the fuck your issues were, i would off myself before becoming a part of the imperialistic bourgeoisie war machine.

you are a hired murderer, paid to fight wars your government created for profit. and on top of saying "you're not ashamed of anything you did" (as if i'd expect a mindless nato murderer drone to express human emotions like remorse), you claim to be a marxist?

you are lower than dirt, i sincerely hope your crimes haunt you at night and drive you to kill yourself

the afghanistan/iraq war? are you serious? do you have any idea how many people's deaths the us has caused directly and indirectly?

sott.net/article/273517-Study-US-regime-has-killed-20-30-million-people-since-World-War-Two

Nuremberg Trials tought us nothing?

Even if he did participate in the fighting, there is little point in moralizing about it now. Yes US imperialism is destructive and wrong. But I doubt the guy would come here, if he thought that it was right to begin with, and yes there are good things that the army can do, building a school when the Taliban would cut off the arms of girls being educated is a good thing, even if on the long run the war was destructive.

Don't worry, "my crimes" don't haunt me at night at all.

Only thing I'm sorry about is how you don't realize how counter-revolutionary you r>>733526
eally are. There are so many on the fringe liberals in the military who are just waiting (converted some myself after I got out) for someone to send them over the edge from liberal into communist. I hope you realize how fucking stupid you are, and how all your rhetoric is really just depriving the cause of possible recruits. Best of luck to you, you faggy little shit.

Its exactly how I knew that he was a middle class type, no matter about his cries of "poverty". Someone who has been in poverty and internalized those lessons wouldn't speak that way.

For the record, we served in a combat advisory role. Platoon took three roadside bombs, but never fired a shot in anger. I came close to having to pull a trigger once, the incident still scares me thinking about it. Thank the fucking gods I didn't have to take a human life.

aha. and tell me user, who funded the taliban in afghanistan in the 80s to fight the soviets? was it per chance the us?

point is that he is a murderer allowed to walk unpunished only because the people he murdered were murdered by the orders of his capitalist masters. is it moralizing to say that a murdering lapdog should be jailed for his crimes? or that it is an injustice that he sits here chatting it up while his victim's families will never see their loved ones again?

think of that for a second user before you try to justify the unjustifiable

you can rationalize your crimes all you want pig, the fact remains that you are still a piece of shit lower than dirt murderer for your capitalist masters

as for me being "middle-class" i currently live on a 300 euros per month salary that barely covers the necessities. but you don't see me murdering people for money, because i am a decent human being. i would rather kill myself than become a tool for the global aggressor

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It was the US, but not user. Do you blame every coal miner for global warming? Do you blame farmers for when your kids get fat eating too many grains?

no, but i blame the us imperialistic war machine and all it's members when the us imperialistic war machine does something.

don't forget to vote for bernie

Not even an American, bro. Also who said socialism should be anti-army?

But the members of the US imperialistic war machine are in congress, on boards of directors and busy investing in oil or weaponry. What do those guys have to do with soldiers?

Everything you do no matter where you live in some way benefits the US war machine, every time you work or buy something in some way the chain benefits the US military machine because it his its claws wrapped around the whole world. Even posting here gives more traffic to a site predominantly used by americans and your contribution helps them relieve stress or spend time so they can better contribute to the US economy and thus the military. That doesn't make you responsible for the decision making.

the us army soldiers is what provides the us war machine the means to do all these things

you are arguing semantics, trying to justify being a hired murderer

You've got it entirely the wrong way around. It's because of the economic evils they are able to force so many people to join the military. You seem to think those horrible things happen because of the army, but in truth they happen because people want to do them because it benefits them. If they didn't have the army they would find another way, build another army. Drones, private security forces, enforcing a draft or whatever. Creating poverty to force people into the military is only their current tool, they can just as easily find another. Its not the hammer that bashes in nails, its the hand behind it.

This specimen is called the "high school teenage, early college" communist. Can only deal in absolutes, and lacks the life experience to see that throwing around buzzphrases like "imperial war machine" does not actually win an argument off the bat.

I hope you don't pay taxes, because you are directly supporting some kind of military. Whoops, you're a murderer now.

And to be clear we should break that hand and kill everyone who wants to do it then create a society where it isn't beneficial to do all that shit. I don't want some looney to come along and accuse me of justifying capitalism or some bullshit.

They will always find an army yes, until every single soldier says no. and a decent human being should always, always say no. there were people that said no when conscript was mandatory, and paid the price for it. so i will not accept some sob story as an excuse for becoming a hired murderer.

nice ad hominem chump, #ourrevolution

Are you an idealist?

He's 15, what else can he be? Its *literally* the only way someone can be that idealist, to be a child.

Meanwhile you post this sentiment on a device built from gold, cobalt, and lithium, which are conflict minerals mined by african slave labor, smuggled by organized crime, processed in sweatshops, and sold by Capitalists.

All money is blood money faggot. Looking down on people who handle money when it's wet because they don't have a choice is its own form of classism.

if one person can do it, so can another. millions gave their lives to fight fascism, so there is no excuse for someone to actually be an active part of the war machine, let alone murder on command for it

ok

the only difference is that using the goods produced by capitalism is unavoidable. being a hired murderer for the same capitalistic machine that commits all these crimes on the other hand is completely avoidable

yes because his ONLY options were to literally STARVE TO DEATH or become a hired murderer. that was it

Hey mother fucker, you know how easy it is to stop buying goods made from conflict minerals? Put down that expensive phone and laptop that you're posting on.

Only a lumpenprole or a member of the bourgeois showing up in camo would think that way. Life isn't that clean cut when you're poor as shit, young, and have nothing going to you.

How do those truffles taste?

I don't believe that at all, i think its perfectly valid to be an adult idealist. I just happen to think they are dumb and wrong. I see nothing about being an adult idealist that is any different to a young one.

Though yeah being at that age probably does make you more of an idealist as you begin to finally understand thoughts about thoughts and shit, but the fact young people are idealists isn't itself an argument against idealism. The fact idealism has no connection to reality and provides no solid answers about anything is the argument i prefer.

is your pc built from wood?

i am studying to become physiologist, i need the technology i am using in order to help out mankind as a whole. the science developed under capitalism will one day be used after the revolution, so whatever contributions i manage to make will be immortalized and be a small stepping stone that helped the proletariat as a whole

like i said, i live on a salary of 300 euros per month. that is less than op ever made, or any american in this thread will ever make for that matter. i have known poverty much better than you or op. and i will say it again, i would rather be poor forever, flip burgers i dont care, than be a hired murderer. if you are willing to murder your fellow proles and to fight for the capitalist war machine, you are human filth. you can spin it all you want piggy, but the facts are the facts

Nah. Actually it's sourced from parts that are conflict mineral free, which doesn't solve the problem but which isn't quite as bad because it indirectly creates a demand for conflict minerals, but maybe whataboutisms aren't your best recourse.

Did you read the guy's posts, or are you being dense on purpose?

i am 23 btw, don't know how that matters in the discussion since 80% of your part is ad hominem and 20% is justifying being a lapdog for the capitalists

So you participate in a capitalist system that you feel that you cannot defeat in the name of doing some small good here and there… just like OP.

I know what Romanians make. Do you know what Gypsies make living under literal feudalism?

ye our only difference being i would never murder anyone no matter who ordered it, unlike op who willingly signed up to be a murderer

i am not romanian, i don't know how you came to this conclusion

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No, he simply doesn't have to make sure every action in his life is "morally clean" to do them. If you tried to escape taking any action that might benefit imperialism you'd be able to do almost nothing.

How can you put yourself on that pedestal and not see how similar your position is to that of the soldier?

Well 95% of your post is using percentages and the other 5% is ad hominem. I was just pointing out that the age of someone is not a valid criticism of their ideas. Idealism is flawed without having to make some kind of statement about "young people are idealists", it is ridiculous when people say an idea is bad because young people hold it.

Judgement is easy in some circumstances

Because that's what a normal job pays in Romania, so one of two possibilities: you're a Eurokiddie making the equivalent of murrican McDonalds bucks, or you're from some former soviet bloc country where cost of living skews everything.

No you deluded yourself into believing your actions dont support murderers in their murder.

but i don't enforce capitalism by being it's sword you dense motherfucker

are you people fucking with me or are you legitimately this dense?

because i am not actively ENFORCING capitalism nor am i MURDERING anyone. i am living my life, partaking in capitalism the smallest amount i can while doing the best i can for humanity as a whole. i am not a MURDERER FOR HIRE

ye, the circumstances being not being a murderer

wrong and wrong.

purchasing the goods of capitalism is a necessity, simply because every single product creating is a good of capitalism. murdering people to enforce capitalism on the other hand, is in no way shape or form a necessity. it is a horrible choice made by class traitors that would rather be hired murderers than struggle in the work force

So you've never been hard up in your term of "poverty".

So let me get this straight: you're "poor" and not from the eastern bloc? Fucker I grew up gypsy, and you want to tell me about Western European poverty? Eat a dick.

like i said, i make way less than op, am not supported by my parents and i'm still not murdering people in the nato war machine

i'm from greece, which has at the moment the same salaries as eastern europe but with western europe pricetags amigo. so like i said, i know poverty way more than some amerifat who hasn't had a paycheck under 1k/month in his life

I am OP. How much do you think I make? What do you think it buys me?

So your paychecks…

>numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United States&country2=Greece

go into costs that are about 25-33% of what Americans pay. Minimum wage nets you, without benefits, about 12k-15k per year. 300 euros per month in Greece has been ~4k per year American, which is about equivalent to a McDonalds worker.

You REALLY fucking think that you're as bad off as an orphan or a fucking Gypsy? Eat a dick you fucking faggot.

Can we please stop with the "poverty Olympics", this serves no other purpose than to divide us.

The military guy here never killed anyone nor did he support US imperialism. Accusing of things he hasn't done, and of things he doesn't believe is in bad faith.

As the other user said things in life are not "clean cut" accusing him of being "pro-American imperialism when he was an orphan
that had just come out of adulthood, where his only viable way to survive is the army, is absurd. Don't judge in moralistic terms situations you haven't founded yourself in.

We didn't start the poverty Olympics. Cavalry user offered an explanation of why he joined the military based on his background and this shithead decided to tell us about his "horrible poverty" and how it made him a shining example of nobility for not joining the military.

No.

This is getting stupid.

Police in the first world need to be fought; their job needs to be hell, it needs to be socially acceptable to make their jobs hell. Why? They are a threat to the revolution and will not be convinced to be otherwise, as they operate in a comfortable space after a while of conditioning to enjoy and feel in debt to that space. they are continuously ordered to control, and would be fired if they did not do so. Make their jobs shit, and that space that they felt was so stable and enjoyable, that they thought they were successful in "cleaning" or "helping out" has turned against them.

In short, less people would become cops, or if it was manditory they wouldn't do shit.

And stop with all this "is it ok" bullshit

The military is a purely national and therefore bourgeois force. it, on its own, however; is just a bunch of fags with guns and costumes.

How you respond to this depends on your political leanings. If you want "marxism-leninism" (natsoc minus the concentration camps) you probably wana take it over for it to serve simmaler functions.
Otherwise it must be destroyed and restructured to meet prole needs.

They could be looked at as the workers who make sure that the average prole is in line with making capitalists money, and not doing otherwise.

But really it's not that important who they are or what they are for the class struggle, unless it actualy effects the class struggle.

I often hate cops personally, along with many vets I've met. But those are just reoccurring instances of subjective discomfort.

The hired murderers are the work force and the people who join it are the people who have struggled. Choosing to remain unemployed and starve to death is not struggle, it is suicide.

all these costs are numbers before the recent tax raises and austerity measures. also i mistyped, didn't mean i made less than you but less than the military fag. and the reason i brought that up was because you are arguing that poverty forces you to become a hired assassin

so he can become a mcdonald's worker instead of becoming a hired murderer

he served in the us military, the driving force of us imperialism. whether he killed someone or not is irrelevant, since he was ready and willing to do so at command

that is a tough head start in life, but it does in no way justify becoming a hired murderer. like i said, he could have worked minimum wage

and i never will, i would never fight imperialistic wars on behalf of the global aggressor because i'm not a piece of dirt like user

he can work for minimum wage, or migrate to some other country. hell, i'd sell my asshole first before becoming a hired murderer

Gotta love the moralism in this thread. People who would excuse any type of crime and (rightfully) explain most crimes as results of the social dynamics under capitalism refuse to do so when someone joins the military or police force out of desperation or alienation or blind idealism or what have you. Enemies of the revolution must be purged but I'd welcome back those of them who would rather fight FOR the revolution than against it.

explaining something and justifying it is 2 completely different things

How many in the military treat it as "just a job," and how many are "true believers"?

Did you or any fellow soldier ever question or condemn the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq? Was there ever any "this is wrong" kind of sentiment?

How did you and your fellow soldiers feel about those who opposed the wars, especially non-military persons?

How did you and your fellow soldiers feel about the country you were invading? How did you view its people, culture, religion, etc?

Did you encounter or interact with any special operations forces, and, if so, what were your experiences?

Did you or your fellow soldiers believe yourselves "protecting/fighting for our freedom," or as martyrs making "sacrifices" for "your country"? Did you consider yourselves a "special breed"?

Cavalry user here, still taking questions.

1. The overwhelming majority treat it as just a job. Remember, the vast majority of military jobs are non-combat administrative or trade type jobs. Mechanics, S1 admin guys, cooks, what have you. For them its a simple 6am-6pm job that is much like the civilian life except for wearing a uniform. My experience deals with combat arms, which is a significantly different culture.

2. Dude, before we patrolled my section sergeant would consistently and nonchalantly give us the op brief before saying "now come on boys, do your jobs for Haliburton". We all knew to some extent what was going on (although being 19-20 years old when I deployed didn't help my world view, coming from an impoverished background not knowing shit). You also have to remember, unlike that dipshit above who doesn't seem to understand what the real world is we didn't go around pushing around Iraqis and rifle-butting little kids into the dirt. We handed out soccer balls, built a school, provided security for infrastructure projects, gave out medical care to the old and children, and generally spent a year being the tough guys for people whose own protectors (their police, their army) were all too happy to take a bribe or desert their people when they got the least bit hungry or tired. So no, we never sat around thinking "this is wrong". We weren't Waffen SS liquefying villages, and we never did anything the least bit morally questionable. But we knew the overall mission was bullshit.

3. We didn't feel any particular way about them. However, when encountered by Berkeley types like the aforementioned shit sucking faggot above we just laughed it off because none of them ever knew or considered how any of us got to being in the military or what we actually did. All of those people who yell "imperialist war machine" or "babykillers" really just show their own lack of knowledge and critical thought when they make blanket statements like that. You wanna get on people who kill civilians? Go harass the drone operators and pilots who drop errant air strikes on small villages. But we, the grunts on the ground (and I say this confidently) were strictly taught to avoid civilian areas and even disengage if there were civilians nearby (even though my element was never in combat, we trained tirelessly for these types of situations and how not to harm civilians). So to sum up, when confronted by people like the above who call us murderers and what not, we just walk on. Anyone who so quickly wants to throw out judgement themselves should consider their own sins.

4. Personally, you can read my thoughts on the article I wrote on bunkermag (Manufacture of an American socialist). It can detail my thoughts on the local populace much better than a small post here. But basically, we knew that they were just people like the family and friends we left at home. It was just a shitty situation for them, and we never really forgot that. Those kids, those smiling faces waving at us as we drove by made me just so glad I was able to do something positive for them because god knows their own government wasn't going to. But yeah, simply put we didn't view them any differently than we would view any other human beings. By the way, we weren't "invading" them.

5. We had an SF ODA on our COP (Combat Outpost), and they mostly stayed within their own compound. But they did offer and give us some training, and it was amazing and good training.

6. I'm so glad you asked this, because not a single one of my platoon was one of these types. While at the end of the day you'll get a lot of loud mouth POGS (persons other than grunts) who post all that pic related shit on facebook, when the rubber meets the road everyone knows we are just hot, sweaty and sucking because we were sent out there by politicians. No one is more critical of command and country than grunts in a hole, and I say that with confidence. Like the words of my section sergeant, mostly everyone had an idea of the bullshit that was keeping people there and why we were sent. It wasn't freedom, and it wasn't "sacrificing".

Always here, always taking more questions.

Ever meet anyone of the "Wish we could just kill all the shitskins" mentality? It seems to be a depressingly common idea among online posters on military forums and I had one relative who was a jarhead saying that it was something nobody was supposed to say but everyone was thinking.

That's the common out of a psychopath/sociopath trying to justify that everyone thinks like they do.

I know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were common.

Why would you assume that?

I have a question I am going to develop with some background:

I was the one who posted the GitS permanentsocialism blog, and much of GitS was what brought me into the whole idea of socialism in the first place. I was an ex-libertarian insurrectionist anarchist after reading some Bob Black, Tiqqun, and the Invisible Committee until I took a really deep dive studying the security/intelligence state apparatus and how it protects the private sector against the demands of the workers. I studied a shitton of various media including various theories of management (Taylorism), counterterror manuals, as well as manifestos and the usual manuals on guerrilla warfare, as well as the idea of the independently realized mass movement, the titular Stand Alone Complex, which is the mass psychological triggering of related events by independent actors. I believe that dealing with the Stand Alone Complex will be the Achilles' heel of intelligence apparatuses everywhere, and once everyone will get independently radicalized and organized, without a visible command structure, we will arrive at another zero point.

The question is, how susceptible is an average grunt to information that radicalizes him, from your point of view?

I discovered a dialectic of method that can be traced back to the beginning of the nineteenth century; as I picked up and recognized on the milestones that the labor movement and leftism in general was able to complete in spite of the efforts of said apparatus, I found that these were usually the zero points that the apparatus had to reinvent itself. One was the professionalization of the military, since ending the draft reduced the likelihood of a prior beef before entering the military (the constant fragging of officers in Vietnam comes to mind).

Another good case in point is the accelerated development of revolutionary cells and specops forces in tandem, each trying to disrupt each others tactics, and once intelligence is able to pin down their appropriate actions, the state usually directs all its efforts to develop a specialized "solution" to the problem (overtrained special forces operatives to take out dirt farmers and shepherds with rusty AKs and IEDs). The bright side is this overtraining/overinvestment comes at a huge cost, and how this enables the creation of a praetorian guard. When Hideo Kuze got his PKF body, he became practically invincible and once he disappeared, he became a huge problem for Section 9. How effectively would such an individual be created if he were to exist from an American military background?

Also, one of the biggest beefs I have whenever I bring up things like general socioeconomic inequalities and the fundamental illegitimacy of enclosure of commons and profiting off the process thereof, is faggots like the sofsurvivor faggot in the post's picture. Shibboleths like "victim mentality" and the like get on my nerves since they are constantly used to shut down debate and are used like "cuck" as a way to fuck with you and delegitimize you within the whole "will-to-power" framework. How prevalent is that within the military and is there any sort of room for self-examination, or do you have to "not apologize to not look weak?" More specifically, even though you mentioned that most of the soldiers treat it as a job, how much of them and how far have they internalized the army's bullshit? I think that was the idea of the question behind but somehow I think it came out wrong.

Thanks for responses. What do you mean by "we weren't "invading" them"?

I should note, all the posts in the pic I posted are by a high-level ex-SF guy. It often seems that SOF has a greater share of the more vocal psychos and fanatics.

Do you know about Indoc? Or the pool in particular?

Not intimately. What do you mean by the pool? Those eligible for selection?

For PJ, CCT, CRO, STO, SEALs, and MARSOC there's a thing meant to weed people out. It involves swimming. In a pool. You have to keep swimming and swimming while being ordered to do various things, like diving etc. You keep going, and eventually some of you drown. I mean most of the time they are able to resuscitate you, and actual death is rare, but they will keep working you until the physically weakest drown.

But drowning is good. Because you get to continue. The ones who swim to the side of the pool and stop or get out are DQ'd from continuing. You have to either be in good enough physical condition to not drown, or you have to be strong willed enough to keep drowning until you are strong enough to not drown.

Guys who pass through the sort of mental gauntlet needed to continue through indoctrination are going to wind up mentally invested to the point where the mission becomes their identity.

Oh, you meant a literal pool. Yeah, I'm aware of those trials. I guess the entire thing in general demands a sort of fanaticism, which is what concerns me. Some SOF types scare the shit out of me.

what were the hostess zones and why?
how the insurgency deal with the drones they have some countermeasures?
have some countermeasures?
has the army the army come countermeasures against drones(some civilian drones can be use as bombs)?
what was the most common way of rensintace and what was the most effective?
how they indoctrinate the civilian and how the indoctrinate you?
the corruption was common? What was the most flamboyant case of corruption?
who (in the army) has the most violent fame?
how effective was MP in cases of looting?
where is more dangerous in the private companies or in the army?
has the insurgency some possibility ?
how many time you hear or see somebody use their side weapon?

...

Yeah, but people generally avoid them because they are very obviously anti-social and deranged. I've seen those types get in trouble and sometimes get kicked out.

And no, just like the user below you replied it seems to be just something psychopaths want to believe. That somehow they're normal. No matter how much people want to believe that, it is simply not true. It's not common at all, and to say otherwise is talking out of your ass.

Like I said, people are generally aware of bullshit. Haliburton, corruption, etc. Radicalized? I wouldn't say they are anymore or less willing to be radicalized than any other person in America.

To overall answer your question in a more efficient way, you have to look at your average military joe just like anyone else. Their job does not really affect their ability to be swayed one way or another. Your average military republitard (encountered many of those) are exactly like their civilian counterparts. If anything, the Army kind of puts a bad taste in their mouth as to government bullshit since we know and come to intimately encounter bullshit in its most severe form. Don't approach them any differently than you would any regular person.

I don't know how to say it any more simply. We weren't invading them. If you want to know what we did, read my posts above. When I was there the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was more than a decade behind us in history.

I would precaution people, that if you've never been in SOF then don't judge them by one crazy lunatic posting on facebook. I would say that as a general rule for life, don't judge a population by their crazy lunatics. The SOF guys I met were normal dudes, probably more laid back than any of my NCO's were and definitely really cool on a personal level. They are the epitome of professional, and Army SOF is aptly nicknamed "silent professionals".

Also, remember that every service has their own SF and that Army SF in particular has a very specific mission set tailored to understanding people at their basic level and training them for insurgency. Other SF like Navy Seals, for example, are way more gung ho and open about their feelings. Army SF dudes tend to look down on that open and brazen attitude, since like I said they take a lot of pride in their silent professionalism. They do a job, and they go home.

I'm saying this from my interaction with actual SF soldiers. They gave us some training, and we lived on the same COP. I advise anyone here again, not to make sweeping statements and not to judge situations by outspoken lunatics. These are lessons not just for life, but for upcoming serious situations. You can get people killed by making stupid judgements based on small sample sizes, and you can get people killed by estimating based off of your own prejudices. If there is ever a revolution in America I'd advise you take these two lessons to heart. Generalizations like "all SF people are lunatics and fanatics" can lose valuable allies in the possible upcoming fight, just like that little faggot above who wants to call me out for being a "imperialist murderer" has no idea what it means to win hearts and minds and allies. Former enemies make the staunchest of friends once you have understood each other, and I hope you all read this two or three times because we'll need every friend we can get in these upcoming decades of capitalism falling into itself and possibly collapsing.

(continued…)

What the fuck is a hostess zone.

Insurgents generally hear the buzz of a predator and just stay out of the way. They are way too high up to hit with manually aimed rockets, and they don't generally have stingers or anything like that.

They don't indoctrinate you. Get this bullshit out of your heads people, the military does not go out of its way to indoctrinate you. There is too much actual training to be done to indoctrinate you. Fuck sake. However, be aware that we are desensitized to killing. Here, pic related. During bayonet training in basic we repeated a mantra while riling ourselves up that went "What makes the green grass grow? Blood! Blood! Blood makes the green grass grow!". We were training to be warriors, and in order to do that you need to desensitize the psyche to the possibility of killing. Does that make us mindless murderers? No. It was basic training bullshit that was quickly forgotten, and definitely did not ever play into any real experience once I was deployed. But in general, the fear and possibility of killing was always there. My near-shooting experience was definitely jarring for me, and my heart beat out of my chest and I'm not afraid to say I was scared. I was terrified that I might have to fire my weapon (I was manning a fifty at the time on guard duty).

Corruption in the military is only as bad as nepotism and people who like other people more than others. Its like any civilian job and its "corruption". No matter how retarded and time wasting the military is, it isn't corrupt.

Violent fame? What a dumbass question.

The US Army, and other professional Western militaries don't loot. Period.

The rest of your questions seem to be from either retardedness, or a lack of English. Either way, I'm not answering anymore of your's specifically.

Anyway, I'm sure people are going to pass this over and still come out of this thread thinking whatever the fuck they want to think. If there are any realists, mature people that want to discuss anything else continue to ask questions. Remember, generalization and estimation get people killed. If any of you out there are serious about being communists, then gather all of the knowledge you can and remember you aren't God and can be wrong. We'll need maturity and realism in large doses if we are to be serious about the future of socialism in this world.

what are you doing now that you left the military? Why do you think there's a future for socialism in the world?
Consider how you affirm the need of being focused and realist, then see how there are hordes of unsatisfied people left out of society that would rather blame the bankers and politicians without caring to understand the basis of the current system.

If I try to be realist, there's no way socialism is happening, people wouldn't deserve it anyway. I'd rather carve a confortable place for myself in this system.

Fortunately your narcissistic personality disorder will ultimately have no effect on the overall progress of the Left.

(You)

Please tell me you're not lumping in that unarmed dude who mans a gate for some restricted area in this category.

An army that was drafted up of peasants thrust into an unpopular, losing war–not an army that was composed of quite often reactionary volunteers.

You can feel all your prole empathy for the cop (I'm not a workerist so who gives a fuck about reactionary workers) but when they bring the club down on your forehead all solidarity goes out the window.

In case any of you watch Game of Thrones, Mance Rayder said something pretty similar to my answer. He asked Jon Snow if he knew how he got all of those tribes that hate each other into an Army. Obviously Jon said no, and Mance replied with "I told them they are all going to die".

Your later question of being a realist and somehow not seeing socialism happening is not a question of whether you actually see it happening. Whether you see socialism actually coming into the world or not is irrelevant. Socialism must become the mode of production in this world, and democracy must supplant economic tyranny if the human race is to survive. Otherwise, we will most certainly die whether it is due to some nuclear war or the coming climate disaster due to corporate, capitalist greed.

You go ahead and carve out a comfortable place for yourself. I want to be a doctor (psychiatrist) not only to help people but also so I never, ever, have to worry about money like I did when I lived in the orphanage. I can respect that. What I can't respect is dooming coming generations of people to certain death, and through my upcoming efforts (I'll be aiming to make a well produced youtube web series to start, I can't believe Xexizy is the best this place can muster) I'll be trying to do my part to radicalize people.

Whoops, unnecessary green text in the first line.

post your tits

how did you understand I'm a girl?

Satan flag has been used by one of the biggest lolcows Holla Forums had to deal with, so using it will inevitably result in people thinking you're her and asking for another pic of them boobies

post your dick

good answer user, looking forward to your web series.

There is a revolving door between the educated elements of the security apparatus (military officer, intelligence, and LEO above patrolman) and the Petite-Bourgeois. I would argue that the position of those in the security apparatus is more stable, as the opportunity for membership is very hereditary, they MUST be appeased by Capitalists for those Capitalists to maintain their position, and they almost always have the means to step into the a low level bourgeois role alongside other economic and social guarantees.

Members of the security apparatus can always put in their time and get out as Capitalists, with the assurance that their kids can for generations to come. The Bourgeois proper have fortunes that typically only last for three generations or so before their grand-kids blow it on, well, blow and hookers. They are, in that sense, comparable to the political establishment.

Lol that's fucking hysterical. Reminds me of the famous "what is best in life?" dialogue.

Kuze's chill but Laughing Man literally read a fucking library.

I remember those essays sucking, that or the author was just too much of a trot.

I wish I was a spymaster tbh.

Apparently not, since Germany convicted a 95 yo guard of Auschwitz

Would you say those the training of those that are to engage in actual combat dehumanizes the enemy? From what I've heard some former soldier and heard about their training, it seems that they make you think that the people you will be fighting, be it actual combatants or civilians, are "less than humans" or some other kind of thing, to make kill them seem "ok"

Not him, but I'd wage the threshold for killing other human beings for any soldier who willingly enlists is low.

Nigga you class biased as fuck.

Sometimes when I read these questions I think the answer is common sense, and then I remember "oh right, not everyone has had your experience dude".

First, think of history. Do you think the Romans thought to themselves when facing a battle line of Gauls that "man, I'm fighting what is possibly a group of very sensitive and advanced human beings who are very much like me despite our culture and language differences". No! They probably just thought "here we go about to fight some unwashed barbarians".

It is a necessity of anyone fighting in any conflict to dehumanize their enemy and only think of them in base terms. When and if any of you reading this pick up a weapon and fight in the revolution all communists prepare for mentally, you're going to think of whoever you're shooting at as "bourgeoisie pawns", or "capitalists" and that is it. You aren't going to think of their families, their tender moments that you've probably had in your own life or their humanity. That isn't going to matter, because no one can do the job of a warrior while rationalizing people in their heads.

So to answer your question with my experience, when we spoke of insurgents who operated within our AO we referred to them as "Hajji's" and never really fleshed out who those people might be. Much like soldiers in WWII referred to their enemies simply as "Krauts" or "Nips/Japs". It's a faceless, emotionless entity you're fighting at that point, because you simply cannot make human beings fight wars while thinking about the humanity of their foe. It just wouldn't work.

Well you're wrong. As I wrote above, I was scared to death about having to possibly use my weapon. Some people deal with it a bit better, but there are multitudes of us who save for training would fall apart in a firefight. But training is what gets you through, and I imagine it was like that for any legionary or what have you who was also part of a professional army. Fear never leaves you, its just your body takes over due to muscle memory during times of duress when you train like we do.

So no, the threshold for killing is not low just because you enlist. It never goes away.

I'm the user that asked the first question. Do you think that is a problem? To me, dehumanizing the people you are invading is what makes the occurrence of the many atrocities that the US army.

Also, I don't think that is as necessary as you seen to make it, given that something like the Christmas Truce happened, and they didn't have a problem killing each other before or after it.

I never said it wasn't. If I had it my way we as a species would never fight a single war ever again. So, I would rephrase your question as "is war a problem" rather than is dehumanizing people a problem, since dehumanization is what allows people to wage war in the first place.

As per the Christmas Truce, you're forgetting that was a very special event that happened in a very unique setting. It also happened between front line infantryman who sat in trenches all day, while the real killers loaded shells into ammunition to kill soldiers they would never see with their naked eye.

I still hold my position that dehumanization is the thing that allows us to mindlessly slaughter each other in the first place. You simply cannot process that much information all the while carrying out your mission in the first place. But if you don't think its necessary than cest le vie? I only have my training, opinion and experience to offer.

Yes they did. After the Christmas Truce everyone had to be reassigned to a different point on the front and it was a sign that the war was winding down in a big way.

By the way, you've got to point out exactly what "many atrocities" you're talking about. Already it seems you've subscribed to some whacked out position on Army "atrocities" that has no substance behind it for the large part. For an army at war, in the face of many armies at war (Red Army?) and their deeds the organization as a whole didn't commit very many war crimes.

The only one I can think of is SSG Robert Bales, and that dude was an unhinged lunatic who had major problems probably caused partially by the ridiculous number of times he was deployed and the problems and stress that go along with multiple deployments.

When I wrote that, I was specifically thinking about the My Lai massacre and the shooting of civilians by those Apache helicopters shown by Wikileaks for examples.

Fair enough. My Lai was about fifty years before my time, and Apaches are flown by people who again will never see their targets face to face. Both were definitely caused by the dehumanization of their enemies though.

So I don't know if you think I'm defending it somehow, but I don't. What I am saying is that as long as there is war, dehumanization is a necessity for it to occur. Being a socialist, I obviously believe through ending capitalism we will essentially be ending conflict.

Sorry if I seemed to imply that you're defending such a thing. I was only interested in your perspective of it since you went through to at least part of it.

I don't think socialism can deal with the all of human aggression. Humanity like conflict.

I'm not saying there isn't anything we can do do nor that we can't deal with it. Socialism would probably take away many of the incentives for it to happen and for it to be sustained for so long. But I don't think it will do away with all of it

faggot

You are projecting very hard and reversing causality.

It is not that war is necessary(because muh human nature) therefore dehumanization is necessary.

On the contrary war is ENABLED by dehumanization(largely sponsored by porky indoctrination/misinformation), and it's intent, the part you misrepresent as a fact of nature, is the interest of those at the top of hierarchies.