Discussions about shill proofing chans

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We have horrible moderation. The BO is non-existent and the hotpockets appear to have contempt for the users.

IRL verification is not a cure-all either. IRL groups get raided and v& by the FBI all the time. If you want to know if someone communicating with you is probably the same person OTOH (provided their setup isn't compromised) you can digitally sign communications.

Considering the internet getting handed over to the UN, this site will have to go to the deep web.

we need more in depth chan culture/etiquette. this will force them to adapt to our ways to fit in (lurking) or face being ousted immediately. it has worked pretty well so far. we need more.

This. I'm a STEMfag (Comp-Eng) and plan on setting up my own darknet chan. I'll personally know every moderator and they will all be Holla Forums-teir autists.
The essence of the problem is that the mods do not love Holla Forums.
Holla Forums is home; and an eternal chan will ensure it never dies.

planned boards so far:
Holla Forums
/oven/ - degenerate news, nazi shitposting
/k/
/upperpol/ - private invite-only board for myself and some frineds to plot and scheme like a bunch of jews
/vol/ - ancap autist containment and study board. I want to use it to slowly turn them all into right-libertarians for further redpilling
/improve/ - combined /lit/ and /fit/
I considered a /deusvult/ but i dont want to divide Holla Forums
Holla Forums - for all of our tinfoil bros
/local/ - shitposting with threads tagged with locations
/files/ - torrentposting
/newsminus/ - /news/

taking suggestions
pls no bully

...

so NNTPchan finally decided to start shilling for themselves?
migration fucking when I want to bail on (((Jim and son))) so badly.

way to copy the honeypot's /sekrit/ go kill yourself.

rethink your plan

there's also a few darknet chans up, maybe contribute to those?

Looks like a lego figure doing the stupid nigger pinch emoji thing and not like an F

Look into zeronet

lol a shill wants other shills to contact him so they can prepare their shilling better
fuck off gay

Hope something comes of this

if you guys wanna see shills in action. here you go.

archive.is/OzQBw

There are two main ways of shill proofing:

Both are impossible ideals, and for multiple reasons.
1: Without an established definition of a "shill" to which all members of the community concur, there will always be "shills" among the ranks of users/moderation.
2: Centralized moderation suffers from the "knowledge" problem: it is impossible for an enlightened mod to exist, because it requires more information than a single mind could possible understand: without knowing the identity and motives of a poster (which is impossible), it is impossible to perfectly remove shills ((to perfectly remove a shill is to eliminate shills without removing at the same time good users))
3: If an enlightened mod is impossible, so to is an enlightened userbase. However, the decentralized moderation of the userbase as advantages over centralized moderation in that the userbase can understand more information than a single person (mod). Hover, decentralized moderation also suffers from a knowledge problem in that the knowledge of spotting and handling a shill is dispersed. Necessarily some good posters will make mistakes as to who is and who is not a shill, while others will assess them accurately. Accordingly, shills will be able to slip through, even if all

tl;dr it is impossible to shill proof the chans; individual vigilance is the only fence against shillfaggotry

yup. we are being shilled hard.

archive.is/f9FGM

Permaban anyone who misues Happening in the title

Just be autisticly unrelenting in your pursuit of answers

if they avoid your direct specific questioning for 10 posts they are shills

yeah, nah

see

shills are evasive cunts and don't post like us, they can barely shitpost, you just gotta get the feel down and remember these things and it's easy enough

It works like an immune system, the longer you lurk and overcome them, the more immune you become.

Shills are only a problem when dealing with your average dumb, uneducated normie that's easy to manipulate, internet veterans have passive immunity for it.

Shill proofing chans? They really wouldn't be chans anymore and I've always been of the opinion that shills have ultimately helped us.

But what if you want to shill proof a chan you could have an entry chan like this, then through some methods identify non-shills and mark them / giving them a key. Have them input this key again whenever they clear cookies to refresh? Then put the unmarked under tougher scrutiny ?

I was thinking a bitcoin bounty that any paid shill could get if they spill all the beans on their employers. Paid shills are ultimately mercenaries and all we have to do it outbid their employers.

The information they give the more money they receive.

Also, harmless shills can function like beneficial bacteria in your body.

Yeah, without the shills, we'd have trouble finding discourse. We'd just nod and sage our own threads.

We hate. So the shills keep us motivated in our glorious hatred you see, and they are great sport. They are stuck in here with us! The slihtest fuckup nd we attack like a vicious school of sharks! Imagine the psychological trauma that we must inflict on them? Even attempting to mimmick our speech patterns and linguistics will cause severe trauma to their psyche… and kek eats their pain….

So remember! PRAISE KEK!

get yo kek rings har

gas yourself

ez. Just be able to sway over any shill to the point where they join us or leave.

Redpill modes. Shills can't redpill because shill companies may end up actually redpilling their own shills. They can bullshit peddle conspiracies that are meant to be bogus like flat earth, they can try to pretend to post nazi pics, they can even pretend to be so obnoxious caracatures and pretend to be one of us who is just trying to look stupid too.

But they can't fucking redpill. Their job is to STOP redpills and bury the truth. They can't actually participate in redpilling. It will always be "psudeo-fake-look-i-can-nazi-too."

They can push agendas, but they can't do more than that, and demoralize.

Oh and I should add to this obviously. Every time you want to call someone out to to prove he is not a shill, they need to post redpill pics. A constant "call and response" technique.

Remove the ability for images to be opened in the same page IE new window/tab.
Remove the the reply hover thing. I don't know what it's called Once halfchan added that the posting quality dropped like a rock, it also allows newfags and shills to easily follow what's going on in threads.

This. Maintaining anonymity is the entire point of the chans, in order to police them from shills we would have to eliminate anonymity, our greatest strength.

Shills are easy to identify though, they have an agenda that is contrary to ours, so they'll attempt to shift the argument. Identifying shills through the agenda they're attempting to push and to subvert our agenda is the best we can do.

On the bright side, I believe it is impossible to unredpill someone who has seen the truth, so shills are wasting their time trying. However, inadvertently, we have the potential to redpill some shills who aren't too far gone. We will win a war of attrition against the shills by slowly forcing them to see the truth. So let them come, it's a war they cannot win and they will only fuel our growth.

Poking shills in the eyes with red pill tipped needles is fun, why deny it?

How hard would it be for the darknet to be compromised?

We could be running off of a whitelist in a matter of weeks.

Any way to keep in contact with you for updates?

You mean like Trump fanboys from plebbit and Christcucks who usually resort to sagebombing the thread? :^)

I think this may be true. The only reason the jews consider us a threat is that we've sustained thousands of posts of shills, and emerged victorious. The strength of Holla Forums isn't in the based mods(which they sometimes are), or beeing a nazi hugbox, it's starting as a free-speech board which evolved into a NatSoc or fascism hivemind through the process of evolution.
We have been raided and still are countless times, and the shill posters may have even outnumbered us, but they still know that they cannot convince us to their ideas. We have spent our entire lives being the dark horses and not following the (((politically correct))) way. This is why the shilling doesn't wor. We are not afraid of being the only reasonable person in the conversation, nor do we feer being ostracised. We have accepted that we are the fringe.
With authoritarian mods would mean creating a safe space in which we cannot fight the jew everytime we even post on our board. This is constant vigilence. This is the reason we are so strong. After years of abuse from the jews we have become desensitesed to their logic, and they have made us indestructible. Hard times create tough men.

Based

I might be a little late to this discussion but one of the methods I've used in securing software is creating a unique id (fingerprint) of the browser using HTML5 Canvas elements. The disadvantage of this is that once a browser is fingerprinted- that fingerprint can easily be changed. panopticlick.eff.org/

There is a recent technique of audio-fingerprinting which is down to the hardware level and would be browser agnostic: thehackernews.com/2016/05/audio-fingerprint.html

I'd only recommend this if the IP is stripped from the logging of the fingerprint- but the bonus would be there would no longer be changing IP's to avoid bans (so banned means banned).

If javascript is disabled, then a two tier method could be implemented- or even an anonymous account system (non email based). Kinda like a private tripcode system for non-js users. (Have a 10 - 15 minute delay for the account creation AND logging of the apparent IP on those for 72 hours).

Both are rather draconian, but could support "anonymous" while also giving a real protection against CTR and the like.

Anyway, I agree with most anons here- the shills do keep me on my toes for discussions, and everyone does somewhat shitpost occasionally (unless they just lurk) but recently they have become tiresome. I think the first line of defense is strong mods which we are lacking from the actual community.

Shills may not be a problem, honestly. The real problem would be to insulate yourselves from such subversive perspectives. Every time one can be spotted and their arguments destroyed through reason, you not only discourage them from returning but also strengthen your own reasoning powers. Without such challenges every now and again you would become as intellectually lazy and weak as the SJW's, who can't refute even the most basic of assertions.

The only particular defense against shills is to identify them, call them out, and drive them from the boards. Shills are either people looking to troll, looking for a fight, or are paid to do so. The trolls are not a problem, the 'fight me' types generally get butthurt and leave when challenged, and the paid fucks will keep trying until the money dries up. The only group that mods might help with are the paid shills flooding the board with irrelevant threads by anchoring them and letting them die on their own. The trouble with mods is that shills might infiltrate them - so mod positions are sometimes more of a liability than anything else.

It's a tricky problem, but might not be as big a problem as one might think it is.

what mod is that?

Require some obscure technology or software to connect to your server that requires a high intelligence to use.

Problem solved.

I have been thinking of solving the tor problem OP. For shills though it might be enough to cost them money so that their operations become expensive. You can only deter, not defeat. I was thinking of a proof-of-work kind of system where the legitimate users "mine" a posting token that lasts until blacklisted by mods. In this way, shilling would become more expensive as they would constantly need to regenerate new tokens. This would also allow torposting as CP spammers would be quickly banned. The problem is how to solve the issue of having the tokens ruin your anonymity when facing the mods. Perhaps some sort of mixnet that cycles your still-valid token with those of other users.

You've no idea wha you're doing. Cut it down to 5 at most. And make 2 of them realtime.

I'd suggest you start with:
For talking about stuff like guns, tech, ancap, tg, sports, and what have you, and when something becomes popular enough on that board you give it its own board.

Best thing I could come up so far is to create a chat AI. Instead of communicating directly, we would chat by proxy through this AI, pushing ideas and letting it spread them to other users.

No one can ban a logic network with racist, sexist, transphobic tendencies, especially if the whole thing is actually logic and can be proven. Without direct communication, shills can't do much. If shills push stupid, illogical ideas, they'll be refused and instead used as arguments against them. In the end, logic will prevail.

So in essence, it's not an anonymous imageboard frequented by humans anymore, instead it generates fake human discussions in imageboard format.

And once we have several such AIs, we create an AI-only imageboard with reverse-captchas so humans can't post, and AIs can discuss among itselves so its learn from each other.

I have other ideas about nextgen imageboards, but the rest is just designed to be resilient against attacks of a technical nature, not prevent shilling.

You can't shill proof a chan, but you can bait shills to out themselves. Shills usually follow a scripted behavior, its a matter of asking the right questions to expose it. Shills can also serve as a useful training tool into refined redpilling. View them as a training dummy to test questions/arguments to bust their talking points.

The only way to make a community shill-proof is by educating its members on shill tactics and proper behavior. Holla Forums isn't shill-proof because, despite the efforts of some anons, the majority of posters here act like hysterical retards every time something they don't agree with is mentioned.

why not just do what they do on 2ch and put in temp global id's. Each IP address gets an id that lasts 48 hours. You could then search for the id and check for posts made in the last 48 hours, filter posts made by id if it's a shill. I think they even enforce account sign up to create new threads where you always get the same id.

is that tox?

tox is fucking shit and btw no imageboard can be shill-proof as bans mean nothing if a shill uses a proxy.

add more boards
/meta/ - Meta Discussion
/blog/ - Shitposts
/feels/ - Feels

Zeronet is Botnet.

POWChan (Proof-Of-Work As Identity).

Here is how it might work:
- An identity is generated by a POW algorithm (based on a difficulty set by that user)
- Other users set a "minimum-work-required-to-show" to hide posts from identities that did little work to generate their identity.
- This also allows identities to be easily blacklisted.
- (Optional) To hide Holla Forums and other operations a POW must be generated to even VIEW a board/thread (this must be tied to an IP address otherwise people would just share their POW). This prevents search-engine indexing and normie infiltration.

Dox them. Destroy their money supply. Attack the companies that hire them, causing damage to their stocks.

Give them the CTR tratement.

where can I contact you? I was thinking of setting a new network (reddit type) if Hillary wins.

Sick idea tbh anonysmo. Indeed breaking down the whole structure of communication makes shilling different- maybe not impossible, but at least it'd take whole new strategies to subvert an AI.

How feasible is it though? The tech exists since the 70s, but generating elaborate speech requires a lot of CPU, and neural networks need memory. Two weak points compared with imageboards, making them prone to overload/DoS-type attacks. Unless we have a large overhead in CPU and memory, it could be too fragile.

It's going to take some time before we can host even a decent chat bot (and by that I mean there isn't a single one right now), but clearly AIs could be a great asset on our side, and we need to stand on the cutting edge on this or they'll be used against us.

It's very easy:
1. Strong moderation
2. A health suspicion of all newly introduced memes, trends, etc.
3. Ban the schizos

Basically, what the chans were before 2007.

Useless. A high IQ is dysgenic in many cases. Look it up, it correlates with many not-so-nice things.

I spoke of this a few months ago, ya need a forum/chan hybrid. Two things are needed:

-ANONYMITY
-POST HISTORY

imagine a forum where ya log in, but the account creation require nothing beyond user ID and PW, and where you cannot have any avatar/signature e-peen tools, and all other users ever see is "anonymous" and numeral ID

you could look up post history for say 1 month on any user, this way real active shills would be easy to spot, and long time user retarded ideas of last year wont show up. and seeing someone with 12000 post vs (1) help with exposing newfags.
I would argue ban history should not be viewable, because bans are from Mods, and mods can also be in the wrong, it gives a mod pressuring powers over the users.

tl;dr
IDs have been a boon in spotting shills IN thread, sadly they are free to repeat their sthick every thread, we need to be able to follow shills thru threads with a form of side wide ID, and post history. All the while keeping anonymity and supressing trippfagging/namefagging or any form of self-ego like avatars and signatures.

it should be possible to severely reduce shill impact while only slightly compromizing anonymity
when someshill gets reported, the mods or AI inspecting the case can publish either a repport of non-shill behavior or a list of the shillery commited in other threads with global id reveal
this would allow everyone to identify the goals pursued by the shill in all the threads he posted in
we could even be able to differentiate various shilling groups and their goals
if sufficient proof of ennemy action is gathered, we could even dox the worst bastards
so we could bring the shitpost to the own websites of t4v1st0ck, the jidf, the nsa, …

This is the problem with your thesis. A social security number or a bank account can be hijacked.

? I never talked about a bank account, I am talking of a forum account, can you even read?
I also said an account with no personal identifiers, no phone number, no address, no nothing, choose an ID, a PW, and thats it.
and thats to log in the "thing", then anytime ya opst it shoes as anonymous

you just described master honeypotz
go die

describe how its a honeypot, do you not create fake google+, facebook, twitter account?

You can only do it with some sort of trusted verification. The shills have millions upon millions of IPs at their disposal. It's impossible to have a free anonymous chan without shilling, that's the nature of the medium.

The important thing for any user is the ability to recognise truth from lies, that's on each and every user. The very best a moderator can do is keep discussions on topic by weeding out cancerous threads and dealing with the occasional shill. Unfortunately even range bans have a very limited effect.

Oldfags learned long ago to deal with it, and it's only you newfags who don't understand what's really going on here.

Not possible. All you can do is stay on the lookout for subversives and purge them.

If you don't like a board, make your own fucking board and mod it the way you want. Moderator actions are public, and if the community didn't like it then one of the countless failed intl d&c attempts would have worked and the community would have migrated. If you guys can do something with new technology, then great, but don't try to reinvent the wheel just because you're inexperienced and don't truly understand what's going on.

pick one. It's called a vocal minority.

I would argue IDs done a great deal to spot weak ass shills at first, it forced them to go TOR and proxy.

but then they still kinda get exposed when all they do is (1), but that reset when ya switch Threads, the only ones who can see thru are mods via post history. So recent post history viewable by everyone would go a step further into exposing the shills, be it by showing lack of posts, or the nature of the posts.

if ya want to go further than this, then ya need to set up a login process, by doing so forcing shills that reset to create an account every time. Of course the main beef is to maintain anonymity past this point, can be done by forcing all posters to appear as anonymous, disabling signatures, tripfagging, etc.
thus, a forum/chan hybrid

The shills have automated systems now for changing IPs, they sockpuppet within threads effortlessly. IDs only catch the low hanging fruit.

dude, I was just answering to OP about how to create a shillproof chan, I never implied this was needed, or that I want people to migrate to such a thing.

OP asked a question, I answered. whether we shoudl do it or not is an entirely different discussion, and frankly I`m too lazy, I am fine with how it is, sure shills are annoying, but sometime I like to argue with them, and I don`t like living in a bubble

ye, and a login system means no matter ur IP, ya still gonna appear as the same, which was my main point.

Good job, you just created a forum.

It's not possible to shill-proof a chan.
Same way you can't stop CP being posted or spam.

There may be measures that can reduce shillposting, spam, etc. eg. captcha, but your premise is essentially flawed.

In the long run, I think it's easier to just point out obvious shills, hide/sage/slide/shitpost their threads/posts (using their own tactics against them) and simply wait for the paid opposition to go broke.

Let's face it, channers are more immune to shilling than just about anyone else; we're adept at spotting shills, we're committed to finding the truth in the vast ocean of piss that is the chans, and we're having huge successes with memetic warfare. The point I'm trying to make here, is that the shill problem will solve itself because from the perspective of a shill's employer, we will eventually be realized to be a lost cause. No amount of shilling will ever persuade us away from the truth.

Shilling at channers is basically the equivalent of trying to drown a fish.

I did repeatedly said a chan/forum hybrid.

but hey I just tough of an alternative, and more true to a chan.
Imagine forced tripfagging, without the namefagging. In other words everyone that wanted to post would be forced to tripfag, but their name would still be rendered as Anonymous. and on top ya keep IDs not as efficient as a login, but still troublesome to anyone trying to shill,
If they switch trip but not IP their ID will expose them, if they switch IP but not trip same deal. and keeping track of all your trips and IDs would be a real headache, regular posters would have to deal with the mild inconvenience of Tripfagging,
The only bit missing would be viewable recent post history.

Textboards.