Was the Great Purge necessary? What happened if it wasn't committed?
Was the Great Purge necessary? What happened if it wasn't committed?
Justin Moore
Jackson Edwards
The Great Purge really wasn't any sort of necessity, and was largely a power play by Stalin to root out all manner of opposition in the party. Most of the individuals who had once had capitalist ties were either dead or non-threats at that point, and almost all of the charges brought forth against the accused were your typical standbys for the time: "he's a closet fascist," "he's collaborating with the capitalists," or "he's a counterrevolutionary."
If it hadn't been committed, there might have been a few more rational voices still left in the Soviet government that would help see to it that the Communist ideal was not entirely abandoned. At the very least, there were many among the purged who were calling for the end of revolution-era literal dictatorship and bring about the intended democratic elements back into state policy and governance. Not that there was really any chance of all the intended goals being met, but you certainly wouldn't have seen the USSR degenerate quite as badly as it eventually did.
Really though, the Purges were something to be expected. The concentration of power within the party ensured that whoever was at the helm had large incentive to eliminate opposition, whether it be for the purpose of solidifying power or enforcing one's own ideological stances. When placed in a system where those few who are at the top have the authority to dominate lower factions, they will almost certainly exercise that ability to further their own ends.
Angel Gomez
I bet that you unironically call the soviets "fascists".
In the 1930s there was a plot within the Red Army high-ranking officers to make a coup d'etat, end communist rule in the Soviet Union and impose a military dictatorship alligned with nazi Germany. This plot was led by Marshal Tukachevski, and was allied with key figures of both the Left and the Right Opposition. It was an absolute necessity to eliminate disloyal or profascist elements within the army and the Party before Germany invaded the USSR, or there was real danger of the birth of a Fifth Column working behind the lines to undermine the war effort, like happened in Spain, France or Yugoslavia.
Jordan Howard
Jonathan King
...
Kevin Evans
Leo Cruz
Socialist Federative Republics of Yugoslavia didn't exist until 1945 you mong.
There was no fifth column, but a fascist state called NDH (Independent State of Croatia) and it was a puppet of Nazi Germany.
Lucas Allen
I know that the SFRY did not exist yet, but the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was invaded by the hitlerites, and one of the reasons for the swift fascist victory was the existence of organized collaboration.
Ryder Allen
Yeah, the threats to the internal stability of the CPSU at the time were practically limitless. I swear people here just absolutely refuse to learn from history. Most would probably support a multi-party state in spite of the historical difficulties it took to preserve Marxist-Leninist ideals in one. Honestly it's miraculous they lasted as long as they did before the country totally degenerated politically. Throughout the 20's and 30's thousands of Tsarist officers still infested the Soviet leadership and the situation wasn't made in better by open recruitment from an economically and socially backwards population. Everyday criminals and pro-bourgeois elements easily wormed their way into positions as high as regional administrations.
It was these kind of conditions that necessitated the more directly democratic Stalin constitution and regular purges in which tens of thousands were expelled from the party annually, The Great Purge was only notable among these anti-bureaucratic campaigns in that it went above the local level and straight at political elites. In it's absence it is difficult to see how the Soviet leadership could have possibly remained a united force in the face of a Nazi invasion.
Colton Brooks
"But if we allow democracy, how do I get people to obey me?????"
-tankie logic
Charles Gray
I thought it was about eliminating Trotsky and capitalist sympathizers? Or was that just bullshit so he could stifle the opposition, and it got out of hand?
Eli Carter
I'm not sure what the provisional government has to do with anything that I said above but your point is wrong anyway as all those "socialist" parties were really just class traitors that only managed to gain power by fooling the less educated peasantry. Even if you're going to suggest they weren't openly malicious they were still proven to be plainly wrong when the peasant people demonstrated their revolutionary potential throughout the 30's and onward.
Democracy and multi-party systems do not go hand in hand, in fact they're almost totally incompatible.
Brayden Martinez
That is a lot of bait in one post.
Jackson Scott
I can recommend Origins of the Great Purges by J. Arch Getty on the subject.
Aaron Sanchez
Holla Forums-tier argument there bucko.
Evan Taylor
Trotsky was not even on the USSR at the time. But trotskists from the Left Opposition were also trying to overthrow the politburo, and had links with Tukachevski's plot.
Easton Howard
Democracy ≠ Multipartidism
And yes, both the mensheviks and the social revolutionaries were counterrevolutionaries. The first ones sided with the bourgeoise government, the war and against the soviets, and the second ones tried to overthrow the soviet power when they became uncapable of gaining a majority in them, allying with the White reaction.
Dylan Edwards
Anthony Sanders
In Hearths of Iron IV if you spare someone during the Great Purge civil war will start.
Jackson Parker
hey guys wats going on in this thread
Brayden Hughes
goddamn you tankies are retarded
Brayden Robinson
The military in Yugoslavia was anti-Nazi
Easton James
Oh yes it fucking does. You can't say "you get a voice in government, oh, so long as you satisfy this laundry list of ideological criteria".
Counter to LENIN's revolution. Not to communism.
Yeah maybe cementing a liberal democratic government after centuries of literal feudalism was a good thing or something like Stalinism could emerge
That guy was quickly replaced
On what issues?
allying with the White reaction.
At what point?
Lucas Turner
For Stalin? Yes.
Soviet Union wouldn't have get ass-kicked in the beginning of WW2.
Hudson Wright
If society agrees to these conditions it is democratic. Your obsession with copying the political systems of Western oligarchies won't change that.
>Counter to LENIN's revolution. Not to communism.
Yeah, I'm sure if we just surrender the entire economy to the bourgeoisie they'll hand socialism to us on a silver platter right? The urban proletariat chose the Bolsheviks to present them, and somehow I get the impression they understood the situation better than you do. I don't know why you're so hellbent on denouncing the successes of working people who suffered to emancipate themselves but you're really making yourself look like an ass.
The Purge's impact on military performance is seriously overrated, it's not like all the Red Army's officers in the 30's were Caesars in the making. If anything Khalkhin Gol still showed they were capable of pulling off complex maneuvers. Really their supposed inefficiency is mostly based off one poorly coordinated offensive in Finland that temporarily delayed victory by a month. I'm not saying their performance against the fascists in 41' was great, they were unprepared but I don't think a lack of experience among officers was the biggest factor.