Antifa. Are they good for our cause, or are they just violent hooligans?

Like the working class, right?

I don't necessarily disagree, but these prepackaged leftist slogans give me the eerie feeling that reddit has flooded the board in the past few days.

It's for beating up Nazi's, which is a necessity I can tell you from experience that its fun as well. Although they're currently fighting amongst themselves in my area unfortunately.

There's a reason that the left is so impotent and shitty in the West today. It's due to efficient porky propaganda and mass hysteria regarding the scary SOCIALISM. And yes, it's because the working class hasn't been educated properly. If you had more educated working class people, you would see more people deciding that one of the rational routes to take in order to ameliorate their suffering/exploitation would be socialism. But that's not very common.

Maybe you think it's waycist or classist to think that most working class people are ill-educated, but it's just a fact of reality–especially in America. And yes, I'm saying that if more workers were better educated then there would be more socialists among them.

Most people don't really give a shit about reading theory. Just think about how efficient Mussolini's propaganda was: "I'll make the trains run on time." And that's really all people give a shit about. They want to have good working conditions, high standard of living, and some good entertainment in their down time.

I'd like to know more about them, but I fear they are edgelords. I see their stickers in my neighborhood all the time. Pic related, it was on a footpath near my house the other night.

No it's not. The Left just got bored of the "pale, male, and stale" working-class in favour of Third World vibrants, university-educated malcontents, feminist cat ladies and the LGBBBQIRA crowd.

t. rebels for the status quo

These people are more aligned with liberalism than radical leftism. Besides, if your "revolutionary project" has no room for class, then it isn't revolutionary at all.

Better have some antifas in the protests or occupations to defend the movement against violent far-rightists. However, on the economical/political side, I don't know what they are advocating besides "racism is bad". Maybe a few of them just enjoy violence, and picked this side over the other.

Why?

Agreed. And it's not because "omg poor people are so stupid what's wrong with them??", it's merely a recognition of the fact that the structure of our system, especially education, turns us into porky's stoogies. If that system was ruptured and more working people were better educated then we would have a whole different ball game on our hands.

There's an individual among them who might be police plant. The split is between those who want them out and those taking their side.

They're the counterpart to brown shirt street thugs wannabes.

It's always good to prevent the monopoly on ideological violence.

Dedicated movements are for problems that require nuance and care to solve. Fascism is a problem that can be solved with bullets.

Antifa are just edgy European teenagers that want to pick fights in public

From my personal experience they are often thugs with a different flavor to their pretext.
Also, prone to edgelordggery and annarkiddery.

Then again, I might be mistaking some righteous fight against the encroaching forces of fascism for some shitty spray-tagging and random/seldom gang violence.

And lets not forget the mismatched ,often expensive, and symbol covered apparel you must wear to signal your status,as a front-line-soldier against the…
few polyp level retards who go demonstrate on their Nazi fetish-outfits.

That said I might be an edgelord myself.

Here in Sweden they've turned from language-policing SJWs to hardcore working class after a group called Revolutionary Front decided "fuck it" and did a hard entry. Still, since it's cell based I'd imagine that some parts of it are still "hurr durr muh pronouns" especially in the student-city where I study.

Dude, how new are you? We used to have antifa threads all the time and from what I can see the general opinions are the same now as a year ago.

That they're generally doing a good thing, but there's reason to doubt their political commitment.

If there's heavy suspicion that some1 is a police plant they should do their duty and leave.

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lol

iokuillljillji,

hahahahaha

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So where they are when the violent pro sharia protests/riots happen?Show me a single time where they stopped a muslim group shouting things like"democracy go to hell,we want only islam".
They're just SJW,that defend facists if they are muslims.

Keep sucking their pro facist dicks sheep.

kuimkutio,t,oui

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vvvvvvvvvvv

ui

anarchists are not workers and also not educated but edgy rebellious petty bourgeoise kids trying to be badass at campus, throwing stones at cops and getting arrested, thinking this is the start of their little revolution, before they "grow up" into their papas small business

what antifascism needs is a communist party leading the most class concious parts of the working class into the struggle and reach out to all workers, including those who are not radicalized enough for a revolution, to actively fight fascism

if you had any education about the foundation of the antifascist action in the first place you wouldn't be such a fucking retarded little shit trying to give me your pathetic attempt of a side blow

you are absolutely right, i've sadly made personal experience with these people and i cringe every time thinking back at how i tried to be "more open" and "tolerant" towards them…

this made me realize though how badly we need to make an extinction to this childsplay faggotry and how sad it is that there's yet no communist party i can consider becoming a dedicated member of

if you had ever talked with black block fags you'd know that they're basically all in for nothing but the violence, are otherwise unpolitical and just use the cover of a "good cause"
members consist of hooligans, oi skinheads, bikers, drug dealers, boxers, student groups, autonom squatting groups and such
it's basically the same shit tier lumpen that make up the nazi platform, just less edgy and non racist

Most of them need to be more militant if they want to stop fascism. Their current strategy's from what i've seen are ineffective.

Fascists should just be killed, why keep people alive who's whole goal is to kill you and countless others in the name of imaginary bullshit that only has meaning to them while at the same time standing in the way of everything we wish to accomplish while furthering their own agenda? Given the opportunity and the power, they would either kill us, our family's, our friends and our comrades, enslave us, exile us from our homes as well as do the same to many others. It is a cancer that must be cut out before it spreads.

INB4 >edgy

Ive worked in factories, on construction crews, in labor unions and shitty fast food chains and have been a part of the labor movement in the US for years, if you want to tell me i am not a worker than you can suck my hairy cock you pretentious cunt. You want to know what i hate about Marxists the most? Its the pretentiousness, and the fact most of you have never done shit for for real workers in real struggles, but you know who has? Labor organizers, anarchists, trade unionists and working people themselves. I hate you shits with a passion because i've never seen a Marxist stand for hours in the rain and the snow with a picket sign, or handing out food to their fellow workers in need, or housing comrades with no place else to go, but i have seen anarchist do it, I've done and been on the receiving end of this myself many a times. And then i come on the internet and see you whiny little shits saying "anackidies hab no thrie XD" "Anarckiddies are all bourgs" "anarkiddies are all idiots".

Most you you have never been involved in real labor action, never been spat on or arrested for what you believe, never had shit thrown at your face, and then you have the Gaul to say we dont do shit, it shows you live in a fucking internet bubble.

This.

That said, they do have many, many problems as illustrated by previous comments. But we need our own brownshirts to throw down with the fash, whether that takes the form of antifa or something else in the future.

lmao you cunts really are stuck in 1933, as if there's daily street fights between communists and nazis

aww, don't qq bb, i will stop hurting you ok? =(

this.
antifa is filled with liberals who think islam is a PC version of christianity. that needs to change. they need to be just as anti-sharia as fascists

...

that's all you have? i've had better arguments with toddlers about the consistency of their own shit.

cherrypicked pictures are not an argument

this.
anarchists have always been the one backstabbed in every single leftist revolution ever.
and then our precious marxists blame it on each other and imply that they wouldnt have done the same if they had the chance.

not to be a sectarian, but once we've gotten rid of lolberts and naizs, it would be anarchists vs marxists.

If it gets to that point we are already in a loosing battle. the fascist threat needs to be dealt with while it is still manageable, no matter how small. Never forget they have a physical agenda, one that consists of killing people like you can me. Why let that threat exist, no matter how small it is now, especially when it has the potential to grow.?

...

Wow, from the posts I've read here I'll assume that the majority comes from the USA, since americans fuck up everything they do and turn it to shit.

Most of you didn't met antifas nor black bloc militants, but some wannabees, probably. Here in France it is a well organised movement, and if it was not for them, the whole strikes going on would be crushed by the anti-riot police.
Maybe in the US antifas are all edgy youngsters but here they come from all sides, workers, students, there are even "veterans" who still participate to the struggle despite their age.
Comrades and are right.
Anarchists will always do the hard work and get backstabed by the other ones. That happened a few times already in some of the strikes in France.

You don't how much anarchists sacrifice themselves for the struggle. They risk getting jailed and having their life ruined, while commies and other reds think they're being true revolutionaries by just marching in the parade and distributing flyers.

youtube.com/watch?v=_1PcOsbJbLI

Have you ever been to Greece? Also there would be daily fights between communists and nazis in most of Eastern-Europe if they had communists.

Thing is, most antifa aren't workers. Hell, pretty soon most of the left these days won't be workers. The new generation hasn't worked a day in their life, and likely won't because the jobs are being automated away.

At some point, someone is going to shout "worker's of the world unite!" and not a single person in the room will have ever worked, and they'll sit down and scratch their heads and realize that the old Marxism is dead.

Soon, it's going to be some variant of "worthless of the world unite!"

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Euro ML here. This guy is completely right. Anarchists in my University have been the people with the most revolutionary line of all the organizations and parties, but their lack of formal organization and their obsession with horizontal organization has led them o be irrelevant and to have stundents movement led by SocDems and people hunting for a charge in the government institutions, seriously.

Imagine how fucked the situation is, that my party, an ML organization that used to be a hardcore USSR supporter is thinking about proposing the Anarchists to cooperate to put the Students movement back on track.

The funny thing is that we used to call them ultraleftists, but we learned from our mistakes, we made a better analysis and we founfed were our allies really were.

It's funny how they think they fight the establishment while they're funded by the government itself.

I dont think you understand what the means m8

…is their any particular reason you are apart of that organization other than ideological?

They used to be, when the USSR was still arround. The other option is a revisionist party that work with declared reformists and only thinks in electoral results rather than workers and popular gains.

Popular Front lad.

Tbh, I'd probably been a ML during the Cold War but things are changed quite a lot since then with the globalization.

I agree a lot of Alain Badiou, we shouldn't try to subsume any socialist activity under our own party - for the revolutionary idea will partly take form under the revolution. Our current tendencies will be unmade in it, thus we shouldn't bother too much with the theoretical differences between MLs, Anarchists, Trots, or Leftcoms, but co-operate wherever we find mutual ground in practice.

Actually, what is your party? If I may ask as fellow Euro?

sounds like a liberal democracy where you have to choose between two plates of shit, but on the left. Are their really no other options, no real active labor movement or do you feel the need to be in a party for some particular reason?

Has lefty seen this?
youtube.com/watch?v=W9wQ1RW0OIg

Also yeah, Antifa may be funded by Soros to discredit anything properly lefty. Like all Porky plans.

im hesitant to believe anything that come from that channel since they are pol/Illuminati conspiracy tier.

I know. I was thinking of making a thread about it to see what's really going on here.

It depends on the context. You know, material conditions and dialectics, but I agree with you that it can be an effective tool if used properly.

PCPE (Partido Comunista de los Pueblos de España) it formed when the PCE (the historical CP in Spain) turned reformist with Carrillo and his actions in the end of Francoism. Some years ago the Party had a huge crisis and ir almost dissapear, but we are back on track with a lot of strength, and in fact, we are trying to form country-wide Students' Union, which is very important in Spain, because the different independentists movements create their own Unions, which from a class struggle PoV makes no sense.

Why are you so suspicious and dismissive about parties, comrade? Me and my party comrades are very active in the Students movement and in the Labour movement, we are part of unions of all knds and we try really hard to keep it up and forward. The party is a way to give direction and to keep on track the movement, it is not some kind of conspiracy to create a riñuling class of party member, thats some liberal propaganda, seriously.

Very good question. Well you see, where i am (the US) their are no political party's that server the interests of the working class, none what so ever. Yes, their is a communist party, but it is a progressive neo-liberal party like all the others. Any real change that has ever come to the working people has come though the labor movement and only the labor movement and we have done so without the use of party's in any form for nearly 100 years.
Myself, i have been a part of the labor movement for years through unions, assembly's, protests, marches and actions of solidarity.So naturally, i look at other parts of the world to see what they are doing effectively to further the workers struggle and naturally party's come into view and i have to say they disgust me. I have seen party's routinely fight against other left party's over trivial bullshit, i have seen them advocate scabs of striking workers, i have seen them dictate policy towards their party that goes against what a large amount of the party wish, causing a schism and further dividing because someone with a position of authority decide something without consenting other, which you dont really find so much in the labor movement. Apart from all of that, the party's themselves are doomed to either stagnate completely due to overwhelming pressure from the capitalist political frameworks which they are forced to participate in simply due to the nature of capitalist politics, and i have seen them time and time again, if they revive any kind of political power, such as in Greece and Spain, that they will directly go against what got them into power in the first place.

I will support the struggles of labor till my death, but only if those struggles are done by the workers themselves without any over seeing frame work of a political party that will doom them to stagnation and co-operation with the forces of capital.

What is the PCPE's position on Podemos? Do you participate in it?

lol

I sure as hell hope not, Podemos seems to have turned out extremely liberal in their actual policies, implementing privatizations and what not.

Like the Swedish Feminist Party or Greens who claimed to be totally leftist guys but did a heel-face turn as soon as they got a shred of power (or even when they where totally irrelevant as in the case of the former).

This is why I still think it's necessary to emphasize socialism and Marxism despite all the prejudice, otherwise movements like these loose their teeth.

Oh no, we dont. In fact, we are very critical about them. We consider them to be simply the back up party of the oligarchy since PSOE (progressives) and PP (conservatives) are so deep in corruption and are so politically devaluated, they needed new faves to their dirty job. Here is where Ciudadanos (the new conservatives) and Podemos enter in the game.

Podemos has a very important and powerful postmodernist branch that has no problem with the caputalism, they just want to mitigate its consecuences.

Que mal dais cagondeu

Tienes que admitir que es mejor que el PCE, y que a nivel estatal son lo mejor que hay.

Buff, a ver que yo estoy en la UJCE, y me da rabia el rollo IU, Podemos y como lo admite el PCE. Pero es que el PCPE, joder tio, es muy secta.

Why are you guys a bunch of tankies?

Whoop's wrong picture, you guys are crazy for going to North Korea

your woman comrade is qt though.

Oh fuck off

Joder bien, todos tenemos fallos, pero es que vosostros soi unos revis de cuidao.

En mi Universidad la UJCE les dio la hegemonia del movimiento estudiantil a un partido super sectario y tacticista edl movimiento estudiantil, y ademas aqui en Galicia vosotros y ellos (Xeira, juventudes deL FPG) estais en las mareas, y al final lo que tenemos es un mov. Estudia til que hace lo que digan los secretarios de los partidos institucionales. Es una maldita desgracia.

El año pasado y a principios de este tus camaradas en Galicia tuvieron la oportunidad de hacerse hegemonicos y dirigentes y no lo hicieron porque seguian lo qur les dijeran en IU.

I told you, we were very pro-USSR and we passed a very important crisis phase, we have a lot to do to get better, but we are working on it.

We might have some errors on our international analysis, bur I assure you, our work right is quite good, specially in the young brand of the party, CJC.

Having a favorable view of the USSR doesn't mean you have to defend NK. Why is NK worth defending? It's not even a failed workers state.

Nos tienen pillado por ahi macho. Es lo que hay, pero no es una opinion general y cada dia tiene mas detractores en todos lados. Al final IU se ira a tomar por saco y esperemos presentarnos como partido de una puta vez. 20Años llevamos ya

Sadly, this shit (and the Putin worship) are literally the reasons why I'm not joining any of the ML parties in Sweden. It hints the party as a whole as a very skewed sense of which country's worker's struggle is important and which isn't.

There's little difference between it and the Anti-Germans unconditional support for Israel and the US bc "muh guilt".

They make dank as fuck art tho.

Oye tu! Por cierto, que como llegaste aqui?es una cosa que siempre me espina al encontrarme españoles aqui

Until they start leaving dead fascists on the doorstep of the other fascists they're just roleplaying.

Ya te digo, a mi me gustaria que los marxistas de verdad retomarais el control del partido y lo hicierais una organizacion como dios manda, me encantaria que el Partido estuviera unido de nuevo en España, pero tal y como estan ahora mismo las condiciones es imposible pensar en eso…

Pues yo ya soy un oldfag en los chanes, si te soy sincero llevo 5 o 6 años. Llegue a Holla Forums con el primer éxodo, y encontré Holla Forums. Yo llegue aqui como un socialdemocrata convencidisimo, y mirame ahora. La mayor parte de mi radicalización la hice aqui con las lecturas que me recomendaban. Y tu?

Yo soy un newfag con algo de experiencia, entre stalinista desde el principio jeje. Entre aqui por una rencilla que tuvieron con Marxist Memes, que me mola y tal pero emntre aqui y me gusto la peña de aqui.
Excepto los que adoran a Stirner, odio a esa gente

A ver, MM era una pagina bastante cancerosa y se portaron como perros con nostros en su momento. Ahora la verdad es que no se que hacen, pero hay un tipo de squi que lle va una pagina de FB que se llama "Declasscucking memes for commie proles" que esta bastante guay.

Yo sigo a los dos y me molan igual quiero decir. Y que en cualquier caso MM es una pagina de comunismo bastante decente, con el tema de compartir articulos y mierdas asi. Quiero decir es mejor que Cabronazi joder

I could see them being useful in places like Greece to counter the violent actions of Golden Dawn, but here they just come across as edgy kids looking for a fight.
It makes it easier for fascist to garner sympathy.

kek

what welfare utopia do you come from?

Ah yes…
Please ignore the continued resitance against the Grey wolves, who are also islamist, please ignore the continued support for the PYD, the people litterally fighting ISIS…
maybe your local antifa is just really shit

top kek

Groups like the RF are really fucking based…
Antifa grups have litterally scared Nazis out of action, or blocked them every time they tried anything…
As a concept…yes definetly useful, although there just is a ridicouls amount of problems…

Really, berlin, fucking berlin, cant oppose fascists united, because they are bitching at eachother wether they like israel or the palis more…
All this retarded shit man…as someone who enjoys being an antifa-faggot, this is just ruining so much potential…
Most ultra based groups are "K-Groups" (no idea how they are called in english…so commies who also do antifa stuff in addition to regular commying

An actual anarchist? On Holla Forums? Could it be?

Anyways, you're absolutely right and at this point I don't even bother participating in these Anti-Fa threads. I'm convinced that some residual Nazi sympathies on Holla Forums from ex-Holla Forumsyps - and some actual Holla Forumsyp false flaggers - has basically lead to the completely asinine and inaccurate views Holla Forums has of Anti-Fa. Which unsurprisingly is pretty much confined entirely to Holla Forums

Actual fascism loved Islamic theocracy and saw it as its best buddy, at least geographically.

The modern "radical right" are the same scared pussies as the modern "anarchists". What they are afraid to criticize is simply more benign.

you fucking dense idiot
of course it's not an argument
that's the thing i was pointing out in your post

and then you have the nerve to report or ban me yourself for "false flagging"

i was merely pointing out that you are the faggot that has not made a single point in his whole ranting whining piece of shit post

pathetic in every regard, but typical for anarchists, nothing else expected

The only people I know who support Antifa are either teenage edgelords or 30+ losers who still smoke weed. Useful idiots at best but in my opinion just human trash

Well, I can't see anything wrong with beating the shit out of Nazis.

kek

Hello, comrade. I don't know if I'm an actual anarchist or not, but I do feel close to those who describe themselves as such.
I do agree with you on the presence of crypto-/po/yps here. I've been lurking for a year, more or less, and I did see a lot of vocabulary or arguments similar to what is used by Holla Forums.
I just came to the conclusion that most of the people here, although there might be genuine leftists/communists/anarchists/whatever, are just present on the internet and don't really contribute to the struggle irl, or not a lot, or are just fascists and nazis in disguise trying to pollute the board with their ideologies. The same thing is actually happening here in France, with the Nuit Debout movement.

Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Who the people in the photo? Also what's RF?

Don't be surprised when they don't see anything wrong with beating the shit out of you and your mother in your basement, gonna fight us with the gun you don't own right :^)

I'm armed dipshit. I don't know what kind of pathetic pansy leftist isn't armed. I'll just shoot you

I'm not a liberal.

German Antifa

what?

←- This guy mentioned RF. Idk

RF is revolutionary front, a Swedish antifa group

youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0

Anti-fascists better be treating the Islamists the same damn way or else they're just spineless foolish hypocrites.

Antifa members have joined the YPG international brigade. They're literally killing Islamic extremists.

We already had this exact damn conversation in this very thread retard.

Confirmed for not knowing shit. Your place is >>>/gulag/ that away

Shit like this is why we put you in a home, grandpa

/thread

He has never left his house, user.

They are fucking anarchists. What else did you expect!?

What does ML stands for?

Marxism-Leninism

(checked)
Could you elaborate further?

Not a pansy leftist. Just don't have the cash for it.

are you pol or new?

New.

Oh, that's different then. There's always the black market yo.

Cool yo. There can be a lot of inter-leftist infighting here, but don't take anything too seriously potential comrade.

get out while you can.

Someone link this guy to simple, introductory works!!! I don't have them at this moment.

Shut up you fool

Would like to stay away from that, tbh

this place has consumed my life for the past two years, i have lost relationships, money and my home while on leftypol. I no longer have any respect for leftists in general, and those i do respect i feel the need to criticize at every possibility.

Leave while you still have the ability to be happy.

In my defense, however, I'm very proficient in hand-to-hand combat. My favorite melee weapon is the japanese bou. A good hit with it, and you're look at pulverized bones.

And how is this a criticism to this discussion board and not a criticism of your inept ass?

Sounds like alcohol. You got too attached.

Well, that's something comrade.

But, are you not closer to becoming the Ubermensch now?
Have you not seen beyond your Ideology?

This is the true power of Leftypol.
The power of the dark side.

...

See these threads. There's info. there.
8ch.net/leftypol/res/695033.html
8ch.net/leftypol/res/696815.html

Oh, I mean. I'm not new to leftism. I'm just new to the board, and my mother tongue isn't English, so I don't get much of the acronyms and lingo

Oh, ok. Sorry then.

They're basically just a bunch of edgy children.

I'll use a Neo-Nazi group from my city as an example:
The WWT (weiße wölfe terrorcrew) was a group of neo-nazis active in Hamburg, Gemany, they organised demonstration, were violent, all that stuff.

An Antifa-Investigation group managed to reveal the identeties of the groups members. That scared the shit out of them, some lost thier jobs and had to get new ones with people wo didnt give a shit about them being nazis. (somehow) the Investigation teams figured out thier plans for the next year, published as well.

So the Antifa knew who they were, and what they wanted to do…so the group was completley inactive for about 2-3 years, until late last year, the feds banned it.

(though that method is controversial)

Other regions, are off-limit for demonstrations and large actions due to a large antifa presence. Hamburg and it sourounding towns and villages…not happening…2nd largest city in germany and nazis cant do anything unopposed. As i said, Berlin antifa has a ridicouls amount of infighting, but they would have the same potential (if they just got along…)

Or just take a look at fashist marches in england, they get stopped most of the time…

(id also recommend 161>88 a documentary about prauge antifa, who litterally beat nazis into inaction…)

not even close

Antifa here(belgium) is pretty old and does a very, very good job of keeping their members under the radar. They rarely hit the streets anymore, they're mostly concerned with exposing and finding fash people and exposing popular politicians with fash friends.

If there's a fash convention in some bumfuck town, they will find out.
If there's fash provocateurs at manifestations, they will find out.

They've succesfully hindered loads of neonazi/autonomous nationalists in succesfully organising just by publicly exposng them.

...

Holla Forums pls go

Read more books

go back to Holla Forums you ignorant cunt

A very good documentary that one, I also recommend this documentary made by British anti fascists. youtube.com/watch?v=rW_niHkEXGM

And this article which is one anti-fascists accounts of his part in the anti-fascist movement in the UK in the late 80's and early 90's. libcom.org/library/bash-the-fash-anti-fascist-recollections-1984-1993/1-introduction

I know they're not for the workers.
They're for the dictatorship.

I'm not anarchist but I have had the exact same experience. I don't get why people are shitting on autonomes & black blocs here, it sounds like they feel bullied by the sole presence of people who look mean. Is that all there is to it, social habitus and being scared of lumpen behaviors ? Because I feel like it is, if I put it in the context of my own experience.
I mean looking and acting like thugs is a problem in the european autnomy, it's true. But it's an internal problem everyone is counscious of, really. If your read the latest texts (from the comité invisible for example) you'll see it's one of the main focus of criticism. I feel like here, people don't have with this the problem that it's a bad strategy and leads to a kind of split personality that's typical of people evolving in the world of commodities, and thus not revolutionary, but that they have a problem with the fact this way of acting and looking is strange to them. It's like they don't feel safe with it, they can't understand or affiliate with it. "Anarkiddies playing in the mud", what is that refering to ? Actual, everyday, little practices like writing graffities, fighting with fascists, and listening to some bands or other ? You can criticize that but using this distantiated and despising vocabulary, and never using it to talk about "hard working factory workers" sounds really like gut feelings of social hierarchy, typically following this line of thought that the lumpenproletariat is uncontrollable, brainless and unable to built anything (read : out of society) while the proletariat is the "body" of the society and therefore understandable and mesured.
Maybe I'm speculating a bit too much based on my personal experience (I'm french too) but that's because it sounds to me like an old and dead ideological position in the left.

& I don't really antifascists btw.

...

Do you even

kek

Are you saying those depictions of Rwanda and the USA are inaccurate?

Any Germans here? How much has the Anti-Germans fucked up the movement?

Also, made this btw.

Jawohl!
Tricky question, depends on who you ask…
As someone who was on both sides of the argument for about the same time, I hope i can describe it semi-unbiased.
The AntiDs (ill refer to them as that…for "Antideutsch") do infact have valid points. Antisemitic viewpoints are held by about 26% of the german population, if you add antisemitism projected onto israel that number goes up to 40%.
That shits dangreous…
The AntiDs mainly oppose antisemitsm, mainly in German society and the german left. antisemitism in the left exists, and is rearely opposed. There is unironic hamas-supporters who call themselves leftist. Add to that, compeltely open antisemites and the apartheid meme (yeah fight me, it really is…)…
AntiDs just started to give a new perspective on the conflict (and to oppose inner-left antisemitism)

So heres the part where it gets excellent. The sort of standart position in the left was anti-imperialism (AntiImp) and with that came quite often support for palestine. been like that for decades. Despite the situation in Palestine being utter shit from a leftist perspective (whom to support? the vauge notion of the "palestinian people"? thier struggle, thats mainly carried by islamist terrorist right now?)
A lot of AntiImps completely reject any AntiD arguments, (which are often more frankfurt schoolish, while AntiImps are more into classical marxist argumentations) and vise versa.
They accuse AntiDs of anti-muslim sentiment (which some groups undeniably have…) and racism, AntiDs call AntiImps antisemitic (which some groups undeniably are…) no-one reflects on anything and the just get pissed at eachother
That creates a big split…right down the middle.

Now to the big question:

Depends on the place.
Hamburg? not that much…just a bit of sectarian bitching from either side once in a while…nothing more.

Berlin? Really bad…Both sides are so fucking entrenced in thier positions, they sometimes dont even work together.
Long history, gotten worse in the last time…whatever…

blaming the AntiDs for the split falls a bit short imo, if this fucking movement could get its shit together and just accept that both sides have legitimate points and sort of meet in the middle…but no…not habbening…cant only blame one side for that really.

Oh forgaot to mention that equating anti-americanism to anti-semitism and supporting the US is a thing only a few batshit AntiDs do. (to explain why the US flag is on one of the logos…)
its the AntiD equivalent of supporting Assad or North Korea…

Explain what you mean here, surely you're not denying Israel is an de facto apartheid state?

Don't the AntiD movement specifically deny (based on Krisis Werkritik) the actual existence of class society? To me these guys seem to be one step from becoming neo-cons like in the US. I do not deny that antisemitism are a problem in certain leftists group (here in Sweden, can't speak for Germany) but the AntiD seems to have just ended up in identity politics and unconditional support for a state that regularly bombs civilians.

I feel like they have very little to give the left beyond the courtesy to stop using antifa symbols.

Theodore Luxemburg is that you?

Ah ok, is this the distinction between soft/hard antiD I've been hearing about?

yeah sure buddy

come on in, we're not armed

we just want peace

thats what most sjws,self declared anarchists/greens are.

they cant see the wood from the trees when they call others out.

you fail to see how the jewish cabal hijacked traditional leftism towards a zionistic goal.

umm sort of…along with actual unconditional support for israel.
its not like all AntiDs love Netanjahu…the guy is still shit and most will admit that.

Ah godamnit, i was tired and fucked up…i meant genocide meme…
Israel has some very apartheidish things going on yes…

First of all you cant really speak of a monolithic "movement", its small groups that are somewhat interconnected to different degrees, like every other antifa group.
Second: No…not att all…i have met trot AntiDs, anarchist AntiDs…to say that every AntiD group uses postmarxist therory and deny class society is just wrong. (although a lot of them seem to have a frankfurt school fetisch)

Again, after some point all discourse pretty much went out of the window and both sides just startet to fling shit at eachother…

again, unconditional support of israeli politics is rare, even among AntiDs, especially with military actions.
although what all of them agree on is that israel should be allowed to defend its citizens from threats…when or if they go to far, thats down to the individual zio-meter.

nah…

I have to disagree, if it isnt all a big clusterfuck like berlin, AntiDs can be very usefull actually…in some places they are the only ones who give a shit about antisemitsm from anyone who isnt a nazi…