Your rampant and reactionary anti-idpol has actually made me idpol. Just wanted to point that out...

They do have a point. About homelessness, war, and occupational safety. (Actual MRAs, mind you, not the feminist uber-boogeymen.)

Their theory is garbage, so they can't actually fix these things, but these are legitimate harms caused by capitalism that any decent socialist movement should address.

And false flagging and concern trolling.

But let's be honest, comrades, /r/socialism is an insufferable torture chamber where diversity of opinion is not tolerated. I was banned from a leftist subreddit for saying that Zizek wasn't a reactionary. I'm fucking serious.

At least in leftypol you can say whatever the fuck you want without fear of being censored. There are still feminists and anti-racists on the board. Nobody is censoring them.

Thanks for sharing bro

Why do we keep having this and vegan threads every fucking day?

Is it reddit or Holla Forums or both infiltrating us or what?

Jesus christ

You realise we exist on a board inhabited by 90% fascists, who are free to come and go on this board, right?

Nice tinfoil you got there.

Big surprise, black flag poster sees the majority of posters have a position on something, takes the opposite position to be different. If this board went legit full tumblr you'd probably argue for Not Soc just to be edgy not that your wrong here

Wew, I just wish you had real experience with idpol leftists who want to prioritize anything but class. This board's users does overreact and go to far in a reactionary direction, but idpol has become the dominant ideology of US imperialism. I get the feeling to that many of the board users are pretty young and not very well-read in Leftist theory.

Or something, I'm pretty sure that there were laws against not working in Stalin's USSR. The idpol meme that "lol they just like Stalin and Marxism cause their white!" is pretty lame. Stalin was one of Marxism's first great post-colonial theorists, whatever his faults.

huh, like existing on a website full of fascists doesn't have an effect. I know many reddit, tumblr and Facebook fags made up their minds about this board along time ago without ever visiting. Bending to meet them isn't going to make them love us.

I can't see it being so bad that we actually have place on the net where we can talk class politics and theory without constant idpol interruption. But hell can have more sophisticated discussions about feminist theory on here then anywhere else I know of.

If your white, I feel like its better to maintain self-interested solidarity, rather then getting on your knees and apologizing for muh 500 years of oppression and hoping that doing "solidarity" work as a form of charity isn't going to make anyone love you.

I completely agree, and I've been saying this for awhile now.

IMO, this is what happens when you combine imageboard politics with Holla Forums's culture. Holla Forums was founded on GamerGate and the mod drama on 4chan, which inevitably lead to at least a tinge of alt-right bullshit on all of Holla Forums. This meant that Holla Forums would have a dose of le ebin SJW hate and muh free speech. These two things initially weren't in-themselves bad, because identity politics is a real problem for whatever pathetic remnants of the Left there are, and it most certainly is liberalism that reifies identity to use as a political tool for creating in and out groups to leverage political power at the expense of any sincere desire for ending oppression on the basis of identities. This is the definition of identity politics.

Unfortunately, because imageboard politics is saturated with reactionary bullshit and tends to form into compartmentalized communities with unwarranted self-importance who don't read the theory of the politics they claim to support, what inevitably happened is that this commonality between us and Holla Forums gave them an in to slide the board. Not only that, but a lot of ex-Holla Forumsyps on here merely substituted a few key elements of Holla Forums's rhetoric for some vaguely leftist rhetoric. And it doesn't help that most imageboard users are white males, because that only makes it seem more relevant to them to fight le ebin SJW menace.

What you end up with is blob of vaguely leftist memes centered around an increasingly exclusive view of social justice. Because - and I have to remind us of this for some reason - what we seek is ultimately social justice, broadly speaking. We do in fact seek the liberation of people from oppression on the basis of their identities, as well as a change in the material economic conditions of society. The difference between leftists and liberals is that leftists are actually willing to put their asses on the line to fight for justice, while liberals mostly morally posture or engage in state-approved "activism" at best, and also lack the ability to bring about justice because their view of the exploitation and oppression of people ignores capitalism, and thus a huge part of why people are oppressed and exploited.

However, the view has formed here that, at best, struggles based around identity are a distraction that can be best dealt with after the revolution or, at worst, that these struggles are completely illegitimate. Like liberals, we've come to lack a complete view of how to attain a just and equal society and resort to dogma and poorly-informed opinions when confronted on this issue.

A couple months ago I was shitposting this as much as I possibly could back when a bunch of divisive threads on feminism kept popping up (some of you might even remember that), but I've kind of given up on it because whether or not there are Holla Forumsyp false flags sliding the board is irrelevant now.

Unless they're just being really honest or obvious, it can get hard to tell the difference.

You fuckin get it m8

Nice analysis yo. I agree!

As Leftypol becomes more popular, more people come here from more mainstream sites and are not used either to an open platform where even the faggoter nazi can start a legit thread (africa) and manage to create good discution. Sure, pol always tries to derail everything, and all these people cannot handle the pressure like we do. Also, there are the plebit fags that just want to avoid thinking any deeper than capitalism allows them.

A) WTF is "White"? White americans? Europeans? Are us south europeans white? Do we have anything to do with "oppression of black people"? Isn't it americanocentric BS? Isn't the word "Poc" as racist as Niggers? DO YOU EVEN ZIZEK???
B)

Broadly speaking… There is no "Broadly" in the left. Or there wouldn't be 1000 sects fighting each other.
There is a reason we Leninists fight Anarkids and vice versa.
Go "Broadly" enough, and you end up saying not socialism is socialism.

There is a reason this is call "Leftist Politicaly Incorect". And I'd have it no other way.

… white males… … REEEEEEEE

Oh rly?
Well then since this board is for real Marxism and therefore anti idpol you are invited to fuck off.

>>>/reddit/

wew lad the false sense of superiority in this post

race vs ethnicity yo

Oh, you're absolutely right - which is why I'm opposed in the first place on the idea of a Holla Forums because the idea of lumping together various ideologies under the banner of "leftism" is completely asinine. If I'd had it my way, the Marxist would have stayed on /marx/, the anarchists would have stayed on /anarcho/, and we'd just shitpost on each others' boards and argue on their turf. But instead we've all been forced to share the same board, and as a result the anarchists on Holla Forums have mostly left or been replaced with people who are basically libertarian Marxists.

But that's beside the point. You don't have to be an autist about it. I don't think there's anyone here besides the social cuckservative retards who would argue that leftism doesn't strive for equality.

This.

Comrade what are you doing posting with a nihilist flag.

I chose death before idpol.

Is it a coincidence idpol came straight out of American campuses? I think not. Redditors like the OP, think BLM and american liberal college students is a representation of what the "left" is really like or about and bring their ideological shit to honest working class leftist that does nothing but divide and conquer them.

So fuck off if you can't handle that stance which challenges your sensitive world view.

I'd like to see you eat those words you fucking autistic internet leftist. Also, the rest of your post is making conclusions that don't follow based on what OP posted.

How can no one else realize that we're turning into Holla Forums?

Sectarianism is what has brought the left down over the last 200 years.

The real left today is weaker than ever, either we work out our theoretical differences or we will disappear into obscurity and capitalism wins.

Holla Forums is an experiment that should be embraced.

If all it took that was someone questioned feminists interpretative prerogative on gender questions, then you where pretty idpol to begin with mate.

Anyhow I´m convinced that leftypol is kinda unique as the only leftist community that is´t drenched in idpol and if the price for that is having some retarded polyps show up once i a while, I´m willing to pay for that many times over.

This

Reducing the fall of the Left to sectarianism is not only a fucking laughably massive over-simplification of why the many Marxist and anarchist revolutions failed in the 20th century, but the claim is nevertheless ridiculous a priori.

The aims of anarchists and Marxist-Leninists/Leninists are entirely incompatible and there is absolutely no possible way that they could ever work together. The only variants of Marxism that would be able to function with anarchism are its libertarian variants, and shockingly most anarchists are pretty down with the libertarian Marxisms even if they're nevertheless critical of Marxist theory.

But furthermore, it's even more ridiculous to argue that Holla Forums is a successful experiment that ought to be embraced. This board has done literally nothing important and can barely manage to have a coherent discussion about theory, let alone read any theory.

No, it isn't. The only reason you think that is because like most people on Holla Forums you don't have any engagement with anti-capitalist politics outside of shitposting on here.

That detourned anime was pretty cool though

Sectarianism has brought the left down, it's literally why the Soviet Union when into the shitter, first they purged the anarchists, then they purged the Trotskyst, and finally, everyone else.

I don't understand why some people on the left are so against the freedom to discuss any viewpoint. Leftypol has been a center of discussion of theory concerning both agreements and disagreements, as well as a massive re-education effort against both Holla Forums uneducated propaganda and mainstream idpol cancer.

Only people who want echo-chambers and don't want to be challenged, think that any discussion on theory is a failure or not meaningful. Well tough luck, the modern world and the media domination of it by capitalism makes discourse and debate not just desirable, but VITAL to any real leftist cause.

It also fizzled out quickly like all of Holla Forums's projects. It's nice that there have been attempts at doing things that are productive or have some kind of intellectual merit, but if we're being completely honest here, Holla Forums is basically a less-influential version of Holla Forums.

Hell, this is fact that most people on here admit.

...

Sure mate, how could I miss all the big and thriving leftists organizations here in Sweden that aren´t drenched in idpol? Silly me!

Are you insane? The tankies purging a few anarchists and trotskyists had fucking nothing to do with the Soviet Union being shit. From the very beginning, the Bolsheviks denied the workers the ability to democratize the workplace despite the Soviets' attempts to do so. From the outset, they put Party representatives in charge of the workplaces.

Your e-activism is showing. Holla Forums's efforts have not only been more or less devoid of any engagement with developments in contemporary Marxist and anarchist theory, but even our propaganda has failed to reach very many people. Especially in comparison to how grossly Holla Forums overshadows us in this regard.

Holla Forums doesn't fucking discuss theory holy shit

Did you just fucking start posting here or what? Because I seriously cannot believe someone takes this board this fucking seriously. I'll admit that I at times still enjoy Holla Forums in spite of how fucking awful it is 90% of the time, and in comparison to the other boards on Holla Forums it's probably the best for being a bunch of e-leftists instead of the far more insufferable e-Nazis, but at the end of the day this board is beyond insignificant both to the wider world and to any real leftist and anarchist circles. Most anarchist and leftist communities on the fucking internet haven't even heard of us for fuck's sake, except for reddit because we have a retarded perpetual feud with them.

I don't know anything about Sweden, but there are plenty of anarchist groups in my area.

Nice idealism m8

Man, you accuse me of idealism, yet really, can you tell me what those groundbreaking developments are? Are you really this naive? Do you actually know in what state the far Left IN GENERAL is right now politically?

Imageboards in general do not make good places for discussions of theory, this is why they are imageboards, meant for fast discussion and exchange. If you want to discuss philosophy go join a forum meant exactly for that purpose.

Holla Forums should be used for agitprop and networking, not leftist graduate students wanking about the 9000th interpretation of the "Marxist relation to interpelated subjectivities".

Let's ignore the rest of your post then and focus on the main point:

It has failed at both. Without question. As I've already told you repeatedly.

Though I've also mentioned above that imageboards do not work with politics. Politics on imageboards are a mistake.

BUT, nevertheless, I just realized I do need to make a point on a separate issue:

Then imageboards are antithetical to leftist politics. Unlike the Right, we usually expect some degree of intellectual engagement with the theory of our politics. This is what we AGITATE, EDUCATE, ORGANIZE. But Holla Forums has failed to agitate anywhere besides on Holla Forums, and has failed here, and as you've admitted we're incapable of educating because of the nature of politics on imageboards, and we've certainly failed at organizing since everything Holla Forums has ever attempted to do has fizzled out.

Holla Forums is not important.

This is still a very young board occupying a space nearly completely dominated by neo-nazies and white nationalist. Give it time to grow.

I wish the whole board could move to bunkerchan, but we mus make do with what we have.

You might enjoy sitting around with a few anarchokiddies and complain about the white cis patriarchy, but I don't.

Give me one leftist internet community that Isnt a idpol torture chamber and we can talk.

THe thing that boggles my mind about the "anti-anti-idpol" crowd is their total inability to differentiate between two different groups of people. They are:
a. people who recognize that while various identities face some different superstructural problems, they do not believe that addressing these is a step towards socialism
b. people who are 14/88 KILL THE NIGGERS Nazi masturbation fantasy NOW

Does the anti-idpol rhetoric get a little out of hand? Yes. Does it mean that the average leftist member of this board wants to go back to 1950's America? No. We also must acknowledge that identity politics has been used to sabotage the left by the neoliberal establishment by using it to mask class warfare. I seriously doubt any leftist on here wants anything other than proper social justice for everyone.

nazbols and other socially conservative leftists don't count because they shouldn't be considered people, but philosophical zombies.

The problem with Leftypol's anti-IdPol is classic of the Left. It's the lack of proportion.

Every single left-wing place I've been that embraced Identity Politics became *only* about Identity Politics, and all the left-wing places I've been that rejected it became reactionary, racist, etc.

It's impossible to keep any of our ideas within the boundaries of sensible dialogue because many people on these spaces are young, angry, dumb radicals who think pushing everything to extremes is emotionally rewarding. They love the sound of themselves condemning "first world feminist" or "white male revolutionaries" because they're only in it for the shock value.

That said, I do think that the most extreme anti-Idpol people here are just Holla Forums.

My question is why can't statist communist and anarchist make a timeline to dissolve the sate?
Both of them want it to happen, it's just how and when, right?

To marxists the state is primarily a tool used for class control. Since there is no class control needed under socialism, the state becomes an increasingly useless entity. It abolishes itself when it is no longer useful to anyone, to be replaced with stateless organizational systems.

Anarchists reply that the state is capable of both self justification and self perpetuation for a wide variety of reasons and that it forms an intrinsic part of class and hierarchical societies and so it needs to actively be abolished too.

So there's not really a simple answer for this difference in understanding.

It is about how and when. The differences in our opinion on how and when has made up completely unable to revolutionize together.

Anarchists want revolution via mass direct action, leninists want vanguard. Both of these are inevitable to have different immediate results, which is what makes us incompatible.

Would it be possible to start a state with the frame of mind that we must work towards actively abolishing it at the same time?

Is it impossible to have both?

How would it be possible to have both?

If it's the mass working class that is revolutionizing through direct action, a society that is in the true best interest of the working class would be created, that is anarchy.

If it's a vanguard revolutionizing, a society that is in the true best interest of the vanguard would be created, that is state capitalism.

You're asking for a state that is, effectively, crippled by its own supporters actively working against it. It serves none of the functions the marxists want of it and its existence defies the anarchists.

op is a faggot

I am and I hate you all. Except n1x and the few others who get it (as usual). You autists can't even be bothered to read Malcolm X (who was an important philosopher in his own right and the ideological core of one of the most important revolutionary groups in American History - The Black Panthers) because he talked about black people more than he should have – according to you.

When your rampant anti-idpol starts alienating our comrades it becomes the same thing you hate, a division among the ranks against the real enemies – the ruling class. The sooner you realize it and get outside of your white suburbia hell, the sooner the left can actually be something - at least on this shitty board.

Literally end yourself.

Which of Malik el-Shabazz books should we read?

Unrelated to the thread so sage I suppose.

Most of his stuff is just in the form of speeches and interviews. Marxists.org has a few audio speeches of his, and there are pdf collections of his speeches available. His autobiography is pretty essential as well (but unfortunately edited by a moderate).

I'm with you, OP.

Leftypols biggest problem with being against idpol and so-called PC-culture in general is that it is trying to cater to Holla Forums and NEETsocs. In trying to adhere to their illiteracy they'll complain that any disclosure of dissenting subjectivities is inherently contradictory to the workings of the left, when rather the paradox is fundamental to understanding a "just society."
That thread with Malcom X and someone calling him a Black Nationalist (even though he isn't)
or when memers declare that Foucault is trying to subvert class consciousness by talking about trans and gay people, and is explicitly counter-revolution (even though he isn't)
just shows me that leftypol isn't dialectical enough and purports to know material reality unadulterated.
If you say anything against their rampant reactionaries you'll get called a troll, be told to lurk more, return to >>>/leddit/ xd, a pseudo-intellectual, an SJW, and finally an oppressor…

all in order to misrepresent history and theory, and dismiss detailed discussion (seriously, read Foucault and stop being afraid of le PoMo meme x~ddd; it's a childish slur later adopted ironically). It's always been easier to imagine an enemy as totalitarian and dogmatic than it is to consider individual points.
Their purpose is to refute and affirm based on narrow definitions of their ideology rather than weigh the thought fairly.

This is completely wrong tho, X's call for black revolution inspired the panthers but their ideological foundation was Maoism along with the other ML classics.

Newton spoke out against identity politics when he saw it was becoming a problem which he dubbed "pork chop nationalism" e.g. the narrow forms of non-revolutionary cultural nationalism, which is to rad or excellent for modern idpol who prefer even spookier ideas like race and identity. He also defended science as a weapon of the proletariat instead of taking the idpol line that revolutionary science is either a spook or an ebil tool of the white male oppressor.

Newton even said his dedication was to the proletariat and oppressed nations, not to black people in particular and even argued that American Blacks were being bought of by US Imperialism somewhat kek worthy he advocated they travel to North Vietnam to fight for the Vietnamese

The problem is in politics it doesn't pay to be nice, you need to stake out a position. Communists and anarchists on reddit, tumblr and normiebook have bent to the idpol crowd and it hasn't made them any more revolutionary then the shitposters here if we're looking at it objectively. Many IRL leftist orgs submitted to this trend a long time ago.

In reality, rather then playing nice with everyone you want people to join you and to bend to meet your agenda rather then vice versa. That being said Holla Forums isn't a party, but it does attract working class white youth who would either be liberal,apolitical, or full-on fascist.

When it comes to large groups of people solidarity works best when its self-interest not advocating abolition of internationalist principles

White working class people aren't going to be too interested in other people's problems until they deepen their class perspective and understand how the oppression of others strengthens their own oppression.

For that matter when you log off tumblr and leave a college campus and spend real time among working class black and chicano people, you can see that academic identity politics isn't the real world

*or pr0blematic for modern idpol

And in my opinion, the young generation of whites, blacks, browns, whatever else there is, you’re living at a time of extremism, a time of revolution, a time when there’s got to be a change. People in power have misused it, and now there has to be a change and a better world has to be built, and the only way it’s going to be built – is with extreme methods. And I, for one, will join in with anyone – I don’t care what color you are – as long as you want to change this miserable condition that exists on this earth.

t. Malcom X

You forgot "Are slavs white?"

I've been on Holla Forums long enough to know that this place tends to swing back and forth between idpol, anti-idpol and anti-anti-idpol regularly.

This is correct. Just because someone is a minority or other oppressed demographic does not mean that they will be automatically anti-racist or anti-sexist or whatever. Sure, marginalized groups have greater potential to understand the oppressive forces of capitalism, but that doesn't mean that they do. There is nothing inherently redeeming or enlightening about suffering. And further, just because someone is oppressed does not mean that their agenda to emancipate themselves will always be coherent or effective. They can learn. They can be taught. But being oppressed doesn't mean that they'll have all the answers.

Most people just want a good job that pays well so they'll be able to live a relatively stable and happy life, feed their kids, go on vacation every once in a while, etc. Just because someone is black or trans or a battered woman doesn't mean that they're interested in engaging with emancipatory politics or its corpus. Most working class people just want more material wealth, tbh.

The revolution will not look like a h.ug b.ox leftist subreddit. Nor will it look like a Holla Forums circle jerk over the subtleties of theory.

Bobby Seale literally named his kid Malik. I'm not saying they were full on >praise Elijah because they weren't and as everyone should know X gave that up. But both Seale and Newton attributed a lot of their personal philosophies to X, specifically anti-reform and a belief in armed self-defense and a desire to foster black pride. Newton said the Panthers were a living testament to X's work. Ofc they were socialist as well, a direction X was clearly moving towards later in his life.

That's all well and good, and praise Lenin, but when we can't even read an article written by a women because half the board calls it idpol (it's happened not bsing), I think we've gone off the deep end. Everyone here is ofc free to call me an avatarfag who can't theory and would rather hang out with SJWs, but at the very least I'd like to see some more honest discussions of feminism and emancipatory politics (even when it doesn't directly tie back to the working class);.

Maybe we could read Beauvoir or something, she's pretty based.

I don't think you understand what the word "justice" means even a little bit.

Yeah, nah, you just put the actual goal of leftism as an afterthought to "social justice". Kill yourself.

best post in this thread.

And unfortunately we can find the theoretical culprits for this travesty, Laclau and Mouffe.

Nor does it mean that they aren't interested in engaging with emancipation. You seem to be implying that because someone identifies with whatever that they are incapable of whatever.
The point is that identities mean nothing and everything all at once and assuming the antithesis before you've considered their opinion is patronizing and insulting, just as much as PC culture in general.

Idealogical conscription like this is why i dont like to be a leftist.

This.

OP, realize this place is for fun and games and mental masturbation. Only manifestations of e activism towards reality is school shootings and nobody here bombed a billionaire yet.

Anyone who disgrees with you is a memer. That's the definition you're using.

No-one is afraid of poMo. It is nonsense. Utter nonsense. Demonstrably so; vide Sokal et al. Anyone espousing it needs a beating until they are quiet.

Look I'm not disagreeing with you, but this is the best place to talk about left politics on the internet for better or for worse. And most of us are stuck on the gulag express until fullcommunism never arrives … why shouldn't we try to improve it?

Taking the defeatist position right off the bat is just bs, and also pretty fitting of your flag. And I think most of us are here because pic related, you can suck your ego off as much as anyone else here, but at the end of the day don't we just want some decency in the world for both ourselves and others?

An appeal to consequences like force is probably the most PoMo position their is.
I was being ironic, fam. Read Foucault.

Was some part of "It is nonsense" unclear? You are full of shit. The books you are promoting are full of shit. I am not wasting my time reading them. Ever.

FUCK READING GUYS IM SO COOL!

not surprised tbh
avatarfags were a mistake

Reactionary.

Under your idea of improvement, maybe some here enjoy the class reductionist (In contrast to identity reductionist they so mutch fear) stuff and simplistic interpretations of theory in the style of the chans as memes and images.

Internet =/= world, even if leftypol by some miracle would become the most superior internet forum about leftism with almost everyone being knowledgeable it would still be in isolation on the internet. It may by some wonder create or advance theory but with lack of application or realisation of the idea you dont change the world. If you prever a place for intellectual discussion you should start looking further then the internet and maybe go to one of Zizek his lectures and get some networking going and create some shit or perhaps do your contribution in an idealogical specific (green anarchism or trotskyist) magazines or whatever.

Is this what they call the negation of negation in dialectics?

My point wasn't even that we need to have an impact on the world, just that this remains a good place for discussion so it makes sense to keep improving it. While my personal gripes with it aren't universal there has been enough support on this thread to show that other anons are legitimately burned by the over-the-top anti-idpol stance - ironically becoming idpol a lot of the time.

But you know keep defending the status quo instead of maybe seeing the slightest bit of truth in the opposition - like a fucking reactionary.

nihilists were a mistake

All the Sokal affair proves is PoMos will publish bullshit. It says nothing about whether there is valid PoMo literature. If you had even the mildest understanding of logic you would understand this.

Accepting these axioms, I have to reject your conclusion that intellectual (whatever that means) discussion on a board about LEFTISM doesn't belong, for chrissake!

I'm probably one of a handful of posters here that actually likes to talk feminist theory because I'm a masochist and I have to say a lot of it is bullshit. So I don't blame people who don't want to dive into an ocean of idealism to find the materialist pearls of feminist theory.

Literally no one said this fam. I'm going to keep the reply a bit short but he was just observing that working class oppressed communities have real contradictions and they don't always maybe not even usually play out the way idpol ideologues expect.

Some feminist theorists have said if your only experience of oppression is gender oppression then you probably have it pretty good word filters I would venture to say it applies for "race" too, so in my view class is the key link, and perhaps the material core of other oppressions.

seems pretty clear he listened to their opinions in normal day to day interaction imo if you go to them and start agitating then perhaps that will change the reaction. Either way I don't think he's all wrong.

Yes, read Focault in order to criticize him

Without having direct controle over the thing that you want to improve you have to ask permission to the people who influence its quallity (The population), it aint a fine idea to call them cancer and DEMAND that they get rid of their idea's and accept yours for some reason. Replacing a religion with another aint an easy task, its especially hard if you denounce them on day one.

*Unman
Like clockwork, stay spooked fam.

Fugging Spoogs :DDDDDD

Kinda agreed tbh. Some of the people here get really autistic about idpol.

I mean they're right to say class is *a* primary issue in idpol.
But then to say "therefore there's no other causes" is just retarded.

Looking at the modern left, Its actually idpol that has done a good job of alienating people, even X understood this.

It was that stupid "radical communism" article isn't it because It didn't matter who wrote the article because it was pure idpol BS

Literally no one said this fam.
Seriously though, I agree, however the way anti-idpolers keep framing their position is to contrast idpol and assume things like identifying with one thing or another discredits your interpretation of class by itself.
This is sometimes the point. Just like how criticism against the family unit as capitalist—ultimately, alienation also means that distance is included into the very social texture: even if I live side by side with others, the normal state is to ignore them—isn't necessarily pro-family nor anti-family, but rather that identities are repressed by the very nature of demographic markets and defining what is other.

Also,
"Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider. Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention."

It's incendiary no doubt, but seeing that this conversation rarely even happens, so fucking what - or the attempts by said reactionary population to ruin any discussion that doesn't immediately relate back to Marxism? This thread already shows that other people have similar thoughts, and would legitimately prefer some discussion of it that doesn't just devolve into memeing - and they are apart of the 'population' as well.

I forget the title, it was that true feminists need to understand actual solidarity otherwise they remain counterrevs. You know so not actually idpol – I mean I swear people have called Goldman idpol on this board as well for no other reason that they heard she was a 'feminist.' It's the height of anti-intellectualism.

Also I feel like some empathy does wonders when reading X:

He said interesting things throughout his life (and iirc Zizek calls him a based philosopher as well), but you know none of that matters because he took the wrong path (for fairly sound reasons at the time) so fuck him and everything he ever wrote amirite?

Both of you should go stick your dicks in a blender. You can't possibly know that it will hurt until you've tried it, right?

What it proves is that PoMos could not distinguish bullshit from "valid literature". Similarly, a soothsayer might well give entirely accurate predictions when reading entrails. The key word being 'might'.

Again, I have better things to do with my life and PoMo is a waste of my time.

Are you seriously saying that postmodernists have never EVER disagreed with one another? Wow, love that swift generalization.

The victims of identitarian oppression do not need our empathy. They have the liberals for that. They need socialists to fix the economic problems that they experience.

I'm sorry user but this is how it goes on chans, memes and banter here and there and plenty of bait and shitposting covering the actual discussion. Its the paint of the conversation, there can still be great discussion but appear in form of pure shitposting but thats just the method that is applyd here. (General Board culture)

Then start the influencing and the discussions like now, its a begin and all.

I agree that notions like this is silly, but i think its more the fault of dogmatic stance people take instead of the actual content of their beliefs. If people were less dogmatic and more open to conversation and look outside their idealogy this board would improve, but its only but a wish that is outside of my authority so meaningless.

I do not care if they disagreed with each other or not. I am not interested.

I've never heard either of those on Holla Forums and I've been here since 2014. Shit, X is a banner here and Goldman is praised when mentioned so I'd even say they're generally liked by the anons here. The only conclusion I can reach is you're an assblasted faggot here say mean things about SJWs and criticize them for either not caring about class or being ineffective in addressing inequality. In any case I recommend you fuck off if you don't like it here.

You know…
to accept that you are oppressed because of an identity you have…
is

idpol

:^)

Wait, nevermind.

You mean the explicit point of this thread, that is to underline what I think is a problem and talk about it. Sure I was being a dick, but like you said it's a fucking chan. I mean fuck stop playing devil's advocate you already appear to agree, just disagree with the language/method and want to prove a point.

Which was my point about giving up before trying. I'm not saying anti-idpol is bad, but don't let it cloud your judgement on everything, or just decide you won't read something because it has 'trigger' words in it.

So have I and you apparently wear goggles.

See:

End yourself at anytime. Also try to speaking to someone who isn't white, they'll probably beat you (and rightly).

Besides a shitposter hear or there no one actually believes Goldman us bad because she was feminist besides a guy who didn't like Goldman at all and said being a feminist on top of that was a shame. I see that Goldman is really liked here because she calls out western liberal feminism for being the bourgeois trash that it is.

A shame that it happened then.

Where did get that I said his work was not worth reading and due to his material conditions that he is somehow bad because he became a racist?

I can really relate to Malcolm X because I used to hate white people for things that they no control over before I became a leftist, so I am really big fan of him.

I actually use X to un-idpol a lot of people from my community to get them to start seeing things from class issues instead of a race. The black panthers is also great for this as well.

I'm just really adamant against most idpol because it severely damages my community by keeping them from becoming class conscious.

Sorry for assuming, just I think it's disingenuous to call him an idpol retard considering the time/place he lived in.

Yea as I said at the beginning of this thread
a grounded critique in anti-capitalism and struggle is ofc what's needed. That doesn't preclude one from reading feminist authors or Foucault (who isn't a fucking SJW for the record - not saying you think so) or calling out anything tangentially related to the oppression of specific groups as idpol trash. It ruins discussion, and makes the board seem more autistic that it already is.

Everyone here is essentially anti-idpol, being >really adamant I think is the problem. We can read 2nd gen feminist lit and not start saying that rape culture is a thing, and forgetting that capitalist domination/alienation manifests itself differently in different countries and across different groups is the key point. It's not idpol to recognize it and talk about it.

I don't. Do you have a link to these threads where this allegedly occurred?

Yeah I'm calling out your newfaggery. Also there's a thread RIGHT NOW about X if you didn't notice, you fucking newfag.

I did not say he is a idpolretard I said he WAS a idpolretard, it was just exaggerated imageboard speak anyway.

I'm meant irl I am adamant against because I can see the damage it causes first hand.

Holla Forums should honestly be /socialistpol/ because most people here just want to talk about socialism.

I knew it.

Which seems to be half positive and half negative towards the issue. That's how most threads on here that aren't bait go, something you would've picked up on if you weren't as retarded as Megyn or here for more than a week.

Your a faggot, most people here don't hate Malcolm x. People just dislike him for his crazy nation of Islam phase.

this, fucking revision fascists

T H I S

Some people here seem to forget that there are types of oppression based on identities that do concretely exist. Yeah they're the ultimate product of capitalism and older material relations but they still exist. As a result, they occupy the forefront of a lot of people's problems.
We know idpol and creating political divisions out of arbitrary phenotypical traits or habits is dumb, but that doesn't change the fact that people have been doing it for centuries and we've inherited the problems that this has created. Therefore we have to engage with these problems alongside and ultimately subordinate to class, which is the form of oppression that applies to everyone who isn't bougie not matter what you 'identify' as.
These problems exist and we have to deal with them, and that doesn't mean we have to be simpering liberals about it.

I agree with this and it has been something which has been on my mind for some time.

Yeah, people who don't agree on line questions usually take opposing positions against those they don't agree with.

Idpol ideologues say we just want our own white worker idpol for some here this is true we say that we want to get past it. Personally, I want to get past in a way that doesn't sound like a typical Trot paper where the only struggles are the workers vs. the bosses.

The discourse of idpol is so liberal or perhaps more importantly veiled to hide a liberal or conservative position that even national liberation or certain gender struggles have to be thrown out bc their pr0blematic.

Gaddafi deserved the bombs cause he was allegedly trying to commit genocide. Women can't (or don't) rape men and other women.
Duterte is a very bad man who has led death squads and jokes about rape these are legitimate criticisms now, but when he gets couped or there is an invasion bc he cooperates too much with the commies then this will surface with a vengeance etc.

I've thought something similar. Our ideology, I believe following Zizek I'm not a "pls read Zizek!" fag spontaneously flows from our conditions of life. Meaning ideologies of sexism and racism also flows from our material conditions and isn't merely imposed on us by the da hetero white whale loltriarchy.

Identity politics acts as an avant-garde libertarian edge of the system as capitalists can agree to ending oppression based on "race" and gender, so long as they can keep exploiting. These in-turn regenerate the same conditions of "racism" and sexism but on a new basis. Then the search must be to identify and attack some new group with muh privilege, but not to work towards ending the capitalist mode of production itself.

Ironically open discrimination on the basis of race and gender is illegal now in many countries but class oppression is legal almost everywhere. The only do-gooder NGOs that fight a concrete class oppression are anti-slavery NGOs. It's legal to repress angry proles everywhere, but its usually beyond the fore openly repress any particular ethnic group.

I don't say this to replicate the mistake of idpol practice in the matters of class e.g. if we make class exploitation illegal and end repression of the proletariat we will automatically end capitalism and repress tendencies towards capitalism.

Capitalism itself grew out of free commodity exchange under non-capitalist barriers to its expansion. But I think it does illustrate which link the system views as its most vital.

Whats with the spoilers?

Nah, fuck you guys. You are advocating for people to treat symptoms rather than the disease. If we get rid of racism or what have you in its current form, capitalism will just adapt and find new ways of exploiting people. Any attempt to fight the symptoms rather than the cause will do two things: waste effort and force capitalists to learn new tricks. Any time when people are being oppressed based on [spook], that's an opportunity to raise class consciousness. Indulging in the bourgeois' narrative by perpetuating their spooks is the first step to failure.

Forgot this meme taken from our very own autistic normiebook page of leftypol shitposters.

Now that I think about it shitposting is kinda like mass line kek

too autistic to just leave out important points that don't flow; general sarcasm

Yeah, that's what I'm fucking saying! That is precisely what I mean by not dealing with these problems like liberals, which WOULD be treating the symptoms.

This is leftist "politically correct" no? Kinda implies there will shitting socjus and nat socks.

I'm liking this curmudgeonly mountain troll more and more.

So what is your approach that is different from the liberal one but also not anti-idpol?

What about Anarkids then?

This is why we can't have nice things. I want even bother explaining.

NGOs are neoliberalisms answer to all social problems. "You have bad healthcare for the poor? We have an app NGO for that! You have too many refugees? We gave an NGO for that! Now… MAKE THE STATE SMALLER AND GET RID OF SOCIAL SERVICES, YOU RED SCUM!"

Capitalism will change niggers into PoCs.

Now. Back to the point.

None of you faggots complaining about the incorectness of Leftypol told me what White is. For me, it is a pure americanocentric concept that cannot apply in non colonial countries, fused with a bit of post modern racism.

Are we in south europa white? Slavs? Are Japanese white? They are not yellow. And neither are south-asians. Are arabs black? Is "Hispanic" a race? Is "jew" a race? IS RACE JUST A SPOOK???

This is for me the core problem of IdPol. It's not against racism. It only replaces it with "not racism". Just like Ancap is not anarchism, "PoC" and IdPol is not antiracist. It IS racist.

Another point, a Faggot, on the interwebs is not a gay person. A faggot is OP. You call a faggot everyone you dissagree with or think is talking BS.
You can be gay, and it's more than OK.. But don't be a faggot.

Final point.
I really don't see how Leftypol is becoming that reactionary and "pol".
Is it because we refuse to accept that the concept of feminism has changed irreversably, in the western world and that feminism is no a nomenclature that cannot survive unless it keeps it alive through pure "intelectual" classes in Colleges and so on?
Is it because we don't see people based on their color of skin, or who the wanna fuck, or how they wanna dress, rather based on how Class Con they are?
Does it make people that don't want to abandon Capitalism, and want to be "revolutionary" about NON ISSUES … excellent???

Finaly, I for one prefer M. L. King to Malcom X.
King had a dream of everyone living like brothers and so on. PURE COMMUNISM!

t. Leninist.

"PoC" always baffled the hell out of me. Since when is calling a nonwhite person colored not demeaning?

It's like a parody of political correctness. The actual meaning of the language does not matter, only that it is "person first"

omg tell more

the anti-idpol here is at least half people who aren't reactionary shits. I think most people here are fine with non-bourgeoise feminists, they just don't feel the need to start typing in all caps every time they see a purple flag so they aren't noticed as much.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH YOUR FLAG other than anarkids need to be kornstadted AS LONG AS WHAT YOU SAY MAKES SENSE AND ISN'T DOGMATIC.

This so fucking hard.

Not a reactionary but I have huge issues with feminism, regardless of strain. Primarily it's that it's based on idpol.

Yeah, thats why I brought it up, not to praise them or anything like that.

Not saying he was the devil or anything but X seems more preferable from a Leninist position.

Not that I believe in the thesis-antithesis-synthesis maymay but if X and King were the thesis/antithesis then Huey Newton was probably the synthesis.

He combined the revolutionary ardor of X with the class politics of later King and the other stuff white people love "white people are human too" "we should all work together" etc.

The party slowly became more reformist and burnt out but it was kind of glorious while it lasted. I always hear people say the Panthers were racist but Newton worked with progressive whites and admitted he became a communist bc he didnt hate white people enough to join a typical black nationalist org.

That's my favorite idpol-speak word. Some runner-ups are "racialized bodies" "whiteness" "blackness" "anti-blackness" etc.

It's kind of funny how every other identity is a legitimate one other than being white. Whiteness is "just a construct" but if you say something they don't like you only think that cause your white :^)

In reality, both post-modernists and white fascists are wrong, there is no global white race or white nation. White people belong to different nations. But the physiological fact that there are white-skinned people with Eurasian-North African heritage is a reality. It's always been a fluid concept within American borders when the US gov needs to coopt some previously excluded group.

Huey Newton was named after Huey Long?

I would have more respect for idpolers if they weren´t so obviously bigoted themselves.

So says the eminently respectable wikipedia :P no source provided tho. But I have heard that Long was kinda against black discrimination at the time, so it would make sense.

archive.is/2apJd#selection-607.0-607.588

hueylong.com/programs/share-our-wealth.php

This?

Yeah, perhaps. I wonder if this is why FDR was so terrified of Huey and called him the most dangerous man in America. The New Deal programs were deliberately designed to exclude blacks. I've even heard the WPA projects described as basically labor camps for the unemployed by Left critics. I don't know the truth of that charge, but I know many blacks were caught up in them.

I think it works like a cycle. Redditers come here and see us fighting off stormniggers and realize that we aren't reactionaries and that we're far to the left economically. Then they start posting their idpol nonsense and we fight them off. Stormcucks see us btfo sjws like the asshole that started this thread and think we have the potential to be "redpilled" and the cycle starts over again.

Huey Long was absolutely based and was assassinated by Porky

His program was explicitly anti-socialist though

Huey long proved that you could have leftist values without resorting to race baiting and idpol. He is the greatest politician America has ever had by far. I wonder what the world would be like if he wasn't murdered by that brown shirt.

Not directly related, but p. 152 in pdf page 14/24 in file gives some insight into the thoughts occurring in these times and circumstances

You're actually a reactionary.

Only because the bolsheviks were supreme fedoras

...

It is.

said no one ever

...

>>>/reddit/
>>>/tumblr/
>>>/out/
Anti-idpol is why this board exist faggot.

Will you seriously fuck off already. You and n1x are cancer.

some days i'm convinced this board is like 75% Holla Forumsyps & alt-righters masturbating over muh white race v.s. reddit/tumblr kids who can't stand the idea of lefties/"liberals" who won't shower them with praise when they ostentatiously wave their meth addiction around.

kek glorious revolutionary word filter

white person's burden

Look at yourself.

See? That's a good example of Leftypol making sense! Thank you!

(I still don't know what is white. Must be cause am not 'Murican)

...

It literally wasn't the standard Holla Forums narrative as recently as half a year ago, I mean there was always some who considered MRA or GG had a point (and they are free to have that opinion ofc, and it's not like they're completely wrong), but this absolute triggerfest from them when anyone disagrees is something quite new.

This fucking meme needs to die.

This. I don't have problems with discussing feminist theory but it seems like its getting shilled a lot lately.

As an ex-Sargonite, I don't know, I'm strangely sympathetic to feminism now. I want to read a bunch of feminist theory, criticism of it and then further follow-ups so I can understand it all. At the same time, I'm ADD as fuck and the only thing I've read or listened to an audio-book of not just politically, but pretty much at all, has been half of anarchy in the age of dinosaurs and bob Blacks essay on abolishing work.

Iv'e never understood if Holla Forums hates tumblr kids or feminist theory. IDpol seems like a vague term to me, Iv'e always seen feminist theory as a great tool for the social sciences to navigate and analyse the garbage that men and women face in different cultures around the world. My only gripe with modern feminists is that in my experience of talking to them they seem to fail to realise that the overwhelming majority of current gendered issues stem from capitalism and class.

...

EXPLAIN YOURSELF COMRADE

Not disagreeing, just representing curious lurkers

could you clowns stop being retarded for once in your sad wasted lives

You're a mong.

fuck off with this cancerous us vs them image, refute the fucking claim instead of painting the person as something that might not even be.

Are you fucking blind?

Enjoy your feminist glaciology you fucking shitgobbler.

Somehow this doesn't make sense..

He's right, though.