Tesla thread

Not if the Saudi lobby has anything to say about it.

Looks like someone loves the taste of Saudi oil cum.

Battery-electric is coming fast. Musk and Tesla opened the door, their competitors are finally getting in on the battery-electric revolution, and the days of dollars flowing into Saudi coffers are fast coming to a glorious end.

They don't. What are they going to do? Hijack planes and ram them into the Tesla factory? Ackbar America's electrical grid?

It's called recapture. And while the graphite mines over in ching chong are dirty, they're getting their act together.
All in all, considering all that, it's probably a bit less of a carbon footprint than tailpipe emissions, especially when using coal to spin a turbine finally dies in the next 50 years, even if it's only replaced with natural gas.

absolutely botnet

I fear the day when these become common enough to be all over the road but still not mandatory. There were a couple times in the video I could picture some faggot in an F150 slamming into the back of the tesla because they would've been tailgating it for driving slow or stopping at turns.

idk if you're talking about stopping before turns or not, but the parts where it stops in or immediately after a turn are when it thinks something is in its path with its stereoscopic camera vision. the first is a fire hydrant, and it quickly realizes that it's not. then it got confused with its left rearward eye, somehow, with the two cars, and stops for pedestrians on the side of the road. in the latter situation, it's common courtesy to drive slightly left if there's no oncoming traffic, but since there's an upcoming bend you can't really fault it.

but it probably needs more training data. there's a lot of situations it probably doesn't know how to react to, and the roads are a little too well paved.

great car, long overdue electric transportation technology, bad tracking proprietary software on the computer systems on board.

Tesla freed all its patents, and the navigation and entertainment system is based on Ubuntu GNU/Linux.
The botnet is a real concern though
forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/02/19/the-big-privacy-takeaway-from-tesla-vs-the-new-york-times/#639677a16303
forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/data-monitoring
quora.com/What-kind-of-data-does-a-Tesla-Model-S-send-back-to-Tesla?share=1

A $10,000 electric car + $50,000 Luxury shell = a $60,000 electric car

To be fair, they're very clear about the data sharing. You have to opt-in when you buy the car.
They're also using the opt-in data to train the newer model for autonomous driving with their in-house computer vision. The old system, the one with the accident when the guy was watching a movie, was a contracted system.

Also, you have to opt-in if you want to make money off your car doing autonomous uber or whatever the fuck hipsters were excited about.

Actually, the upcoming model 3 sedan is just $35k

gnu/car is better. We're already capable of producing cheap, practical electric vehicles. There's no real reason they have to match the speed of cars that run on gasoline either. Your average person isn't going that far, or driving out of the city every day.

youtube.com/watch?v=PCSNCs7bwCw

you know, uber is botnet too, but those concessions still are detestable. The costumer no longer really *owns* what he buys :(

You're still going to spend at least $15k, plus labor.
At the very beginning of the video it points out that you need to salvage a chassis because of the regulations, buy your motor and a shitload of batteries.

It's only a concession if you actually wanted the unwashed mashes in your back seat while you're at work in exchange for a bit of extra income.

I'm sure it can be done more efficiently if a company wanted to mass-produce cheap electric vehicles. Standards might be different in other countries from UK law as well.

Although, if you wanted to whine about how you don't own the software, that's fine.
But honestly, allowing people to modify the software of a several ton death machine is not exactly the brightest idea.

A band-aid to prolong the life of the most wasteful inefficient mode of transportation when we could be having trans and inter-continental high-speed rail by now.

I don't see how long-range transportation works for the majority of the population. People aren't commuting to Europe, they rarely leave a 30 mile radius of home.

If you live somewhere like LA or Houston this amounts to an hour-long drive every goddamn day because the cities are planned like piss and nobody wants to put the money forward for a decent fucking subway system.

Hydrogen is better than lithium

We already have the electric grid. We don't have hydrogen infrastructure. Creating a nationwide charging station infrastructure is orders of magnitude less expensive than refueling stations for hydrogen, whatever the form.
Fuel cells could be a thing, but they're really not. When we already have the infrastructure, and battery replacement costs (including reclaiming) are so low (I'd estimate them to be less than $1/kWh for Tesla's vehicles) it's pretty much the only reasonable "right now" option, versus fuel cells. Which also degrade, by the way.
This isn't even getting into many improvements, maybe LTO or Li-Ti as an anode in Li-on, improved safety or density breakthroughs.

The really big breakthrough is going to be in carbon batteries. I wonder what ever came of this story a couple years ago

newatlas.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-battery/32121/

That's still li-on family, with a graphitic evolution in the cathode and anode, so not a "carbon battery", but yes, those are proclaimed breakthroughs.

Also
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery

Hydrogen is insanity. It's primarily obtained from natural gas via steam reforming, which releases staggering amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere in the process.

And hydrogen leaks out of everything. The H2 that runs fuel cells is the smallest molecule in the universe. You need to compress and liquefy it to keep it where you want, and even then it'll still leak out, corroding it's tank in the process. Even goddamn space agencies absolutely hate dealing with hydrogen. They use RP1 fuel (basically highly refined kerosene) whenever possible just to avoid the logistical nightmares of hydrogen. Even fossil-fuel-hating Elon Musk is burning RP1 in his Falcon 9 rockets and not fucking hydrogen.

We'd be better off just burning LNG directly in combustion engines or methane fuel cells than going through the thermodynamic rube goldberg machine of hydrogen production. It's technically not as clean, but it's pretty simple to transport and store. Given how much hydrogen would be lost to leakage, we'd probably be better off environmentally with the LNG.

I own a Tesla. You get about 330 km on a single charge. It drives smooth and accelerates very quick. The self driving system works well on highways, but I think it needs more than just camera input to be truly reliable. They update the car's OS consistently which makes the interface better and the self driving more reliable. Using the super chargers is free forever for the early adopters.

Oh, yeah, right. Shoe's on the other foot buddy. The Saudis wish someone would buy their shit right about now.
Anyway, petrol is great. It's energy dense, prices are down due to oversupply and practical for now and there are enough cars out there in a cosmic sense.

The thing that replaces it should actually be better, not worse in every metric except quarter mile speed.
It's ludicrous the extents Tesladrones will go to defend their precious electric cars when, for the reasons I provided, there are no reasons to do so.
The technology is too young and poorly done. Buying a Tesla is like buying a Kickstarter product; it's like early access. The QC is inconsistent, it'll die in a few years and won't be worth anything when it does, and, they'll get the shit kicked out of them as soon as a real manufacturer with means decides to seriously pursue the market.

Buy it if you feel so strongly that you want one and can afford it, but don't pretend to the rest of us that you're smarter or better in any metric. And enjoy winning drag races at the lights because I guess you've earned that.

In the meantime, we've just seen new developments as thesis projects in using supercapacitors like batteries which thusfar don't have the limited discharge cycles issue and are more energy dense, which is actually looking promising as opposed to stuffing your car with Li-Ion batteries.

Here's the lowdown, cupcake:

I fucking HATE combustion engines.

Not because I'm some hippie-dippie gotta-save-mother-earth-maaaan basket-weaver , but because I'm sick of paying some fuckhead at a garage a metric shitload of money every time something goes wrong in one of those hyper-complex machines.

And for those who say "just learn to fix your own car", are you fucking serious? I can't afford a house and garage and the hundreds of tools needed to do that. If something goes wrong, I need to take my car to a mechanic anyway.

So here comes electric cars, and because for the first time in a century the batteries are actually pretty fucking good, the cars are pretty fucking good too. And because electric drivetrains are dead-fucking-simple and super-fucking-reliable, I won't need to take my hypothetical car to be repaired nearly as often.

Right now, lithium-ion is the most realistc way to get away from a fucking gas engine that I've got. So I'll cheer on lithium-ion. And if something better than lithium-ion comes along that will power an electric motor, then I'll cheer that on too.

I'm not a Tesladrone. I'm all for market competition in electric cars in general. Maybe I'll get a Model 3. Maybe I'll get a Chevy Bolt. Maybe I'll get whatever the fuck the other companies come out with in the next few years. But I'm never buying another goddamn gas engine car again. Fuck those shyster gas engine mechanics. I'm done giving them cash.

The future is poo in reclaiming loo

Here's the lowdown, cupcake:

I fucking HATE GNU/Linux.

Not because I'm some corporate cuck microsoft-makes-quality-software naysayer, but because I'm sick of sending some fuckhead at an IRC channel a metric shitload of messages every time something goes wrong in one of those hyper-complex machines.

And for those who say "just learn to fix your own gentoo", are you fucking serious? I can't afford a house and a computer and the hundreds of tools needed to do that. If something goes wrong, I need to take my software to a computer scientist anyway.

So here comes propietary software vendors, and because for the first time in a century the act of programming is actually pretty fucking simple, the programs are pretty fucking good too. And because modern UIs are dead-fucking-simple and super-fucking-reliable, I won't need to take my hypothetical computer to be repaired nearly as often.

Right now, corporate software is the most realistc way to get away from a fucking GNU/Linux computer that I've got. So I'll cheer on Apple and Microsoft. And if something better than their software comes along that will power a computer, then I'll cheer that on too.

I'm not a MSdrone or an applecuck. I'm all for market competition in software in general. Maybe I'll get a Macbook. Maybe I'll get an Ubuntu. Maybe I'll get whatever the fuck the other companies come out with in the next few years. But I'm never downloading another goddamn community-made software again. Fuck those asshole freetard hackers. I'm done asking them for help.

Don't buy stocks, they're only dropping.

inb4 the non-free software makes your car stop

Wasn't the Model S the one with a fucking 8 year warranty? Or are you talking battery pack replacement?

I hereby declare this work as satisfying 9 out of 10 viewers on the grounds that it needs more Emperor.

a "thesis project" does not make something automatically mass producible. really, just get used to the fact that we're going to be using li-ons with various evolutions in the electrodes, tweaks on the electrolytes, etc. for the next two decades.

This is a bullshit argument against electric cars, because combustion cars have exactly the same proprietary-software problems.

Depends on where you live. Europe probably has the necessary infrastructure since we basically bombed ourselves back to the dark ages during WWII and had to rebuild it all with a working knowledge of how to do it properly. The US is gonna be fucked if everyone were to rapidly start charging their electric cars at night.
The problem is and always has been the ease and safety of fuel refills. Just like how people buy unlimited phone plans even though it would be cheaper to pay as you go, people will not switch to an electric vehicle until they feel confident that they can take it across continent without waiting 16 hours for fuel every 4 hours of driving. Solve that and you'll be a billionaire.

GNU CarOS when?

That's in newer, post-Y2K cars.
I miss those with window openers that were just a crank.
A car could easily be a purely mechanical machine, with no on-board computers, GPS, or what-have-you that are bloat either way

m8, you can get hydrogen from water if you run a current through it.

You must be joking.

Firstly you speak from a position of haughty privilege and ignorance on the matter of repairing motor vehicles. You don't need a garage and hundreds of tools to fix a car. Jackstands, a spanner, pliers, a good screwdriver and socket set would go a great deal of the way to empowering you to fix most of what will break on your modern day shitbox, and you can find/buy shop manuals for most vehicles these days without difficulty so it's not guesswork. Situation dependent, you may need to extend yourself and find a used engine hoist or some such similar item on Craigslist, but thousands of people have been going about this business for decades without huge expenditure. Oh sure, it's not as easy or comfortable as having a hydraulic car hoist and a garage full of tools, but saying it's impossible is laziness talking; the issue is with your determination.

But no, you want a new vehicle that you cannot fix even if you wanted to, with batteries built on technology that has a limited lifespan of charges (300-1000 average for Li-Ion iirc), that will incur a huge cost when they fail. This vehicle will still have wearing parts, and you won't service it. Not because you can't, but because you're lazy. Cars will never be like building PCs.

You have no idea how electric induction engines work.
There's a reason the model S has an eight year warranty. The cars are dead fucking simple.

Also
lmao, you're just shitposting
Not really, about $12,000 and falling for a replacement pack at Tesla's prices. That's around every 6-8 years.
You're completely delusional if you think electric cars are somehow not going to work, probably due to your own smug self-satisfaction.
They're here, and it's only going to get better.

Wtf? I could get a brand new mini jap car with that cash.

Right so burn coal to get hydrogen.
Mix oxygen and hydrogen to get water and electricity.
Use electricity to produce kinetic energy.
At best losing only 30% of the energy in conversion for every step, and equipping every single car with a pressurized container full of an extremely flammable element that's a gas at room temperature.
Sounds like a plan, boss.
You would be better off running your car on fucking wood gas environmentally speaking.

Don't fall for bait.
The man comes to a chinese picture forum with a hardon for stuff that can be opened and examined by the user and claims he prefers a philosophy more akin to Apple's.
The basis of open source is being able to see what's under the hood and change it to your liking, easily.
Source code access is for software, but for cars, manufacturing and mechanical simplicity are the equivalents. The same could go for general discussion of power tools, audio and video hardware, cellphones, crop rotation, whatever.
The same reason why Holla Forums is anti-everything new. And with good reason.
With older cars, you can go and change the engine, the gearbox, the anything, piece by piece. And if no spare parts are around, you can get a lathe and make them yourself. Not even a CNC, or really expensive. I remember seeing my dad make screws and such when he couldn't find one nearby. Hell, it's where "ricing" comes from. I'd like to see this tesla-cuck rice his shitty car, see how far he goes.

Right so burn coal to get electricity
Transport electricity through a crumbling energy grid that won't hold up to that level of demand
Slowly charge up large expensive batteries
Use batteries to produce kinetic energy.
At best losing only 30% of the energy in conversion for every step, and equipping every single car with a $12k box of pure environmental destruction that has a lifespan of 6-8 years and a tendency to make fireballs if damaged
Sounds like a plan, boss.

Actually, not. As much as I love wood gas from a self-sufficiency and SHTF perspective, it's only reasonable for stationary engines, and has problems of its own.

Also, if you live in a developed nation that uses nuclear power, there's lots of available power at night. Hydrogen plants could talk to the IESO and soak up any spare power. This would also have the side effect of either making nuclear cheaper than coal, or wildly profitable.

I own a shitbox. You get about 1000km on a single tank and can add an arbitrary amount of range extenders fuel cans in the trunk. It drives smoothly and accelerates quickly enough for anything that isn't a quarter mile. The self driving system doesn't exist, which is a system that works well on highways, city streets, back streets, dirt roads, laneways, flat stretches of ground, and forest trails. The car's operating system is it's operator, which automatically learns and improves as it drives, without any questionable botnet. Fuel is cheaply available for it anywhere in the world, and my daily commute for the next 8 years will cost less then a single battery replacement.
Best of all, the cost difference between a shitbox and a tesla is enough to buy a house, an impressive amount of cocaine, or 3 export model T-72 tanks. Or 1 T-72, shipping to a non soviet bloc country, and enough fuel to drive over a large number of teslas

Except for the fact that 99% of it can be recycled, and is, when you upgrade the battery from Tesla.
That's hilarious that you bitched about not upgrading the grid, especially away from coal, in your first paragraph, and then hand-wave it away in your second paragraph.
Again, hydrogen doesn't contain. Hydrogen corrodes at about the same rate, and with all the water buildup you risk damaging your fucking engine and the fuel cells by not leaving it in a heated garage.
Hydrogen and battery storage are much the same, except batteries are much more efficient (i.e. doesn't lose near in the process of hydrogen) and they're here now.

That is, hydrogen fuel cells, and probably worse at a price you'll be comfortable with.

Doesn't make it any less that $12k, or make lithium mining any cleaner. That lithium had to get mined at some point, and no, recycling is not that efficient..

Are you negroid or something? Because that's some really low levels of reading comprehension there. My entire first half of the post (which was deliberately written like your post) was to point out that batteries have the exact same efficiency problem.

Hydrogen contains just fine in tanks. We use it as coolant for large generators, and even those only leak a little bit (a few m^3 per day) Existing tanks for oxy-hydrogen torches do a perfectly fine job.
Considering that NASA uses hydrogen fuel cells that have multiple decade service lives, I don't think that's really an issue.

Yet somehow we engineered our way around this problem on gas cars that also have tons of water vapor in their exhaust. Sorry my melanin enriched friend, hydrogen cars will be fine in -20C, batteries will not.

Better learn to love those gas motors, cause they're here too. Or coal plants.
Also, so are hydrogen cars:
pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2459329,00.asp

Yeah, you're just a fucking retard who doesn't know what it's talking about.
Hydrogen gas will leak from your container at about 2% per day. You're not going to like the price of a containment system where it's dramatically reduced.
NASA avoids it wherever possible, as stated above.
Again, you are the fucking retard who waved away a problem with an upgrade of the grid while making it a problem in your first paragraph.
You're clearly such a smug faggot, who's constantly wrong, that it's no wonder you're upset about new technology.
It reminds me of that former professor who apparently constantly shit on Tesla for some weird reason, and especially SpaceX, trying to claim that SpaceX rockets aren't actually real. Some sort of delusion seems to overtake certain people who are pre-disposed to it.
You don't have water constantly accumulating in your gas tank at the rate of fuel cells, dipshit. You'd probably have to have a heater.

And, again, this is all skipping over the fact that it will cost far more for a comparable infrastructure, and Tesla already has free charging stations across continents. It's just going to be a mirror gasoline infrastructure and probably pump out more carbon, especially when you consider the wasteful process, the wasteful transportation if you mirror gasoline infrastructure, and it will be plenty expensive if you produce it at the pumps.
Hydrogen isn't here like batteries are, and it's more expensive. Proclaiming it's better while producing no actual facts and then just defending your statement with half-assed bullshit and flat out lies shows that you're an unreliable, smug faggot.

You're right.

Care to back that up with sources? That's a pretty specific claim. Best numbers I can find are on the magnitude of cubic feet per year for pressurized hydrogen, and 0.4-2% per day for liquid oxygen, neither of which support your claim. LOX leaks so much because you can't oil the seals
Secondly, Hyundai has clearly found it to be feasible.

NASA avoids it on lower stages because petrochemicals have better volumetric energy density, and are far cheaper and don't require pressurization. On upper stages they almost always use hydrogen because the mass energy density can't be beat. This has nothing to do with your irrational fear of hydrogen.

I didn't realize I would have to spell this out for you. Grid upgrades are only needed for charging cars on the other end of the grid. Hydrogen plants would be located close to the generation sources where they can tap the main output lines, thus not requiring grid upgrades at all. Magic.

Have a picture of the pyramid that you are at the bottom of

Uh what? Water vapor from a fuel cell is blown out the exhaust, same as a gas engine. How the fuck do you think fuel cells work?

No, it will cost $0.00. No new infrastructure is needed, save the plants themselves, and capitalism takes care of that. Delivery is handled the exact same way as gas: trucks take fuel from the refinery to the gas station.

Maybe free for me, cause I don't pay US taxes. Less so for you.

I have no idea how you think nuclear plants turning water into hydrogen is going to create any carbon, let alone more than petrol.

Nope, just checked, turns out it still exists:
hyundaiusa.com/tucsonfuelcell/index.aspx

Oh you.

Daily reminder to
Disregard all Tesla shills.
OP's vehicle is $40k golf cart that has no range. (It would be a $55k golf cart if it wasn't for your generous $15k taxpayer contribution)
"up to" 215 miles, means you'll have to find a power outlet after visiting uncle bob who lives 50 miles away. That is of course if you don't bring any gifts, because each muffintop costs you another mile. If you want to buy yourself a golf cart, get a gas-powered one like a cooper mini. It costs half as much ($20k), has 3 times the range, takes only a minute to refuel, is capable of transporting more than muffin tops, there's no EMF exposure, the fuel is cheaper, you don't ding the taxpayer and it will last you a lifetime. Electric cars are trash.

While I agree with your in philosophy, I'd argue:

1. Most modern cars have so many computer components it's hard to fix them yourself, even if you wanted to.

2. Sure it sounds easy from someone coming from a car background (maybe your dad taught you or something), but I don't have the prerequisite knowledge to buy car of craigslist and just fix it up, and mechanics is simply not something you can buy a book and become an armchair expert on, you need to get your hands dirty. I do not have space for a hobby car to work on, and I also do not have the money to spend on such a car plus the tools. Should I spend the money on it, if I accidentally fuck up the car I can't just leave it in my apartment parking spot rotting, I'd have to pay even more money to get someone to tow it away.

Your right, they're not compact or cheap, so the entry level for them is high. You just defeated your own argument. Sure I can replace my windshield wipers or a battery, but pretending as if anyone can just grab a pair of pliers and some duct tape and fix a cracked engine block is fucking ridiculous.

Yeah you're right, I could totally afford and fit a metal lathe in my 1 room studio apartment. My downstairs neighbors won't mind me grinding away at metal either.

It can accelerate faster than most sports cars.

nah
apparently you don't, because you'd know that it's actually sort of "run-off". basically, excess water build-up is what comes out of the pipe.

I can't find the calculations for 2% per day, but I wouldn't doubt it depending on the container. you also ignore throughout the thread that hydrogen tends to make any container brittle, and the fuel cells themselves half a lifetime of usually no more than ten years, so again worse than batteries with sufficient breakthroughs.

Actually, the $35k for the buyer is the price before tax breaks/incentives. The new Tesla will probably drop considerably in price if you get your tax breaks from the IRS.
That's like saying corporate tax breaks cost the taxpayer billions of dollars.

Here's the lowdown, cupcake:

I fucking HATE non-free software.

Not because I'm some hippie-dippie gotta-save-mother-earth-maaaan basket-weaver , but because I'm sick of paying some pajeet at a call center a metric shitload of money every time something goes wrong in one of those hyper-complex software solutions.

And for those who say "just learn to fix your own PC", are you fucking serious? I can't afford a house and operating system and the hundreds of libraries needed to do that. If something goes wrong, I need to take my computer to a non-free help desk anyway.

So here comes free/libre software, and because for the first time in a century the programmers are actually pretty fucking good, the code is pretty fucking good too. And because meritocratic community hosted projects are dead-fucking-simple and super-fucking-reliable, I won't need to take my hypothetical system to be repaired nearly as often.

Right now, GNU/Linux is the most realistc way to get away from a fucking non-free operating system that I've got. So I'll cheer on GNU/Linux. And if something better than GNU/Linux comes along that will power a free/libre operating system, then I'll cheer that on too.

I'm not a Linuxdrone. I'm all for market competition in free/libre software in general. Maybe I'll get a Debian distro. Maybe I'll get a GNU Hurd. Maybe I'll get whatever the fuck the other companies come out with in the next few years. But I'm never buying another goddamn Microsoft Windows again. Fuck those street-shitting indian programmers. I'm done giving them cash.

They're simpler than you think. Ultimately, cars haven't changed that much, and unless you're dealing with the upper end of the market, like Mercedes or BMW's, cars don't need anything but the engine's controlling computer to work. This computer is cheap and small.

You really can do it with those tools mentioned and perseverance. Such tools could conceivably be kept in an apartment as well, although an engine hoist couldn't.
In regards to knowledge, obviously you start small, with an oil change, changing headlamps, etc, and work your way up, while consuming media relevant to the practice as you go. There are shows out there like Wheeler Dealers on television which document car maintenance, and many such shows on youtube also.

I don't feel the Tesla will be any better. The electronics are an order of magnitude more complex.

It's a bit rough to pick one of the most severe things that can go wrong with a motor vehicle and use this as an argument to not service your car to any degree.
I may not be able to drive to the top of Everest, but I can go to the store, and many other places besides. You can service a lot on a car with screwdrivers and a socket wrench set.

We're really at the Macintosh argument now. "Macs don't break or get viruses", and are harder to service, and maybe what you want is a Mac and it's your right to get one if you so choose.

Most of the electronics in this car are convenience features.
The point user was trying to make that the base technology they're working here, the shit that powers and delivers that power to the wheels, are much simpler than the clusterfuck and the amount of parts and responsibility that goes into the process with an internal combustion engine.
You can make an argument all day about how it's better to fix your own car, but don't pretend that your Civic is less complex in that context.

The model S is the best car in the world.

A fact and not an opinion.

Yep, but I think they have a good luxury-focused niche. They'd best stay inside of that.

Proper cooling and chemistry selection can almost entirely eliminate this for the average usable life of the car. GM has figured it out, actually. There have been ZERO Volts showing any degradation, including 2011s that have gone 300,000 miles, 100,000 all-EV. On the other hand, you have the Nissan Leaf, which is a piece of shit that has zero cooling and uses the cheapest cells Nissan could source. Down to 30 miles of range from 90 by 150,000 miles. Where I live, every Pajeet has one because the state government used to gibs crazy rebates on leases.

Test-drive one and tell me it drives like a $10,000 car.

Found the Jap. The physics just don't work out, and it's highly impractical out in burgerland, where we aren't using all-nuclear energy.

I personally own a 2nd-gen Volt, and can confidently say that electric is the future, regardless of the eco-friendliness of it. It's almost silent, accelerates incredibly quickly for its class (definitely not a Prius, about as quick as my friend's Mini Countryman S). I rarely venture out of the 55-mile range, but when I do, I can run on gas just as well as I can run on battery. A 200-ish mile EV with quick charging would be enough for 95% of people. The Bolt is going to be cheaper than the Model 3, and GM will undersell the performance of it, Car and Driver said it was faster than all of the other hatches they reviewed this year except for the Focus RS. And with my power company's EV/night rates, I'm paying the equivalent of 50 cents a gallon.

Electric cars are more reliable, and more fun to drive than gas cars, and they'll be cheaper once battery production is ramped up and adoption increases.

I consider self-driving and the botnet to be an entirely separate issue. And I'm divided on it, because there are metro areas with godawful traffic that could be solved by it, but you're giving up quite a bit of freedom to get there.

You're my hero.

this

Do people not realize the logistics and the infrastructure that's needed for hydrogen?

The Japanese government heavily subsidized research into it. Which is why Japanese automakers are all so behind on EVs despite having hydrogen prototypes.

Tesla Model 3. Too late. Elon bet on mainstreaming the brand. Make it sexy with the Model S and go for volume with the 3.

Exactly. GM has. Tesla, has not. Teslas show degradation. Exactly what I was talking about several posts back. I've seen anecdotes detailing a 6% drop in Tesla battery performance at 50K miles. That said, batteries don't die linearly, and Tesla batteries characteristically die hard at an exponential rate when around 30% of their capacity is lost in lab tests.
Though degradation occurs in all batteries, it happens at a lesser rate when the charge is limited and thermal conditions are managed, sure. That said, with over 60,000 Volts and a half a billion miles, it is only a matter of time. Chemistry still is chemistry.

And again, the only defenses that EV owners can bring to the table.
It's fine you like it, but don't tell everyone else how to live or what's the best.

The muscle car lover's argument, a barge that can go fast in straight lines is fun, but without those 70's good looks.
Protip, your Volt weighs as much as pic related.

Elon says the Model 3 is intended to cost, on average, about 45k. A BMW 3 series base costs about the same as a Model 3 does, probably costs about the same with the average number of options. He says a lot of stuff about "electric cars for everyone", but I think they're going to keep it fairly upscale. I feel like the Bolt will drop in price in a few years when batteries get cheaper, I don't think that will necessarily happen with the Model 3. GM has other brands they would slap on it if they were trying to sell it in the upscale price range long-term.

Obviously chemistry can't be defeated, but I am curious to see what will happen with existing Volt batteries. Seems to be more a function of time than use, but we'll know for sure in 5 years. GM was overly conservative in their reserve settings as well.

As far as weight goes, yeah, but it's how it's balanced. The Teslas definitely do show quite a bit of this, in putting acceleration above all else, but early impressions of the Bolt put its handling on par or better than with competing hatchbacks, the new Volt definitely handles better than the muscle cars of yore. It's important to remember that the majority of consumers don't really care that much as long as it's reliable, has a cheap TCO, and drives better than a Prius. Toyota sells a ton of boring commuter cars, after all. In that regard, the Volt exceeds the average consumer's expectations. And when I say that I rarely go beyond 55 miles, I mean day-to-day commuting. I'm not one of those people that never ever uses the gas engine, that's ridiculous (though they definitely exist). I'd say 90% of my miles are EV. It fits my use case perfectly, sure, but my use case is pretty typical. There will always be edge cases where a different vehicle is a better fit, and I think that over time, EV technology will grow to fill those needs. I understand where you're coming from, though, with some of these European countries prematurely setting deadlines on ICE cars. I think that's a mistake.

Also, Japanese corporate C-level execs made decisions years ago to get into hydrogen. Admitting that they fucked up would mean losing face. And junior management is terrified of telling the senior management when they've fucked up. Typical Japanese management problems, really.

Lobby to pass legislation making charging stations/cables too expensive or have too much red tape or cars are taxed because of the batteries in a way price becomes so high that most Americans can't afford the cars keeping it a niche market.

Not if the EU has anything to say about it

LOL nips and chinks allow American products to be sold in their markets? Get real!

Self explanatory.

This is the big one for me. Above all other considerations, I want a reliable vehicle. And if there's one defining characteristic of an AC induction motor, it's the reliability. They simply keep running for decades on end with barely any maintenance at all. Sure can't say that about gas engines.

Since hydrogen distribution infrastructure doesn't exist in my first-world nation (hey, hydrogen fans: where can I fill up a fuel cell in Toronto?) that means I'm going battery-electric. And I ain't looking back. Fuck combustion engines.

Keep in mind the lathe is for rare cases where you basically have no spare parts, and can't get them. In the US I suppose getting spares is way easier.
For a starter pack, using a set of wrenches, one adjustable spanner, a set of screwdivers and a vise are more than enough for most stuff. Maybe a drill, for completeness (and the heads). If you want a more complete starter pack you can even consider a welder.
Here we have a lathe because my dad worked with the stuff. He also has some of the nicer gadgets like one of those for lifting enines, and many other powertools, but most of them are just there. He's been at this for his whole life.
If you don't appreciate a man fixing, customizing and doing stuff to his own car, then maybe you're better off buying a mac and forfeiting coming to a technically minded forum for discussion
Spoken like a true faggot, maybe you already own such a computing device.
PS: Yes, you can learn mechanics from books.

Is there any brand out there making electric powered (batt or hydro) cars for off road?

My country has a lot of dirt roads and my job require something like a pickup truck.

I saw a lot of videos about these hydrogen injection kit that claim to save fuel, how reliable is these "kits"?

Shitbox. Their reliability is dogshit, even if you baby one of them in a heated garage with perfectly paved roads and no salt.

Yeah, except for substantial upgrades to pumps, hoses, and containment systems. Protip: hydrogen is not petrol. Unless you think that pissing away vast quantities of it via leaks, and probably further damaging the ozone layer in the process, is a good thing.

Are you really that stupid? Electric cars are a meme. They have no torque and are barely able to drive on paved roads. An off-road electric car is as absurd as a battery powered airplane.

torq-vle.com/

With electric you get instant max torque.

Probably more what you're looking for:
alke.com/xt-electric-vehicles

Also, plenty of modified vehicles:
youtube.com/watch?v=iYbVQSYEHqg

You could have saved a lot of keystrokes and typed "I'm a fucking idiot, ignore me". Electric cars have WAY more torque than combustion cars, and they have 100% of the torque available at all speeds.

Did you know that you don't even need a multispeed transmission in an electric car? A simple step-down is all that's needed.

a) that's not a big deal, we already use similar systems for propane. It's simpler than petrol pumps.
b) It's not a infrastructure upgrade in the same sense as grid upgrades. For battery cars, the taxpayer has to shell out billions for grid upgrades so some hipsters can virtue signal to each other. With hydrogen, the gas stations will foot the bill as an investment for future profits.
Great observation sherlock. Natural gas cars are also a thing, although less common, and we had no issues with that.
Cite something any day now nigger. Yes hydrogen leaks, so does anything really, but not nearly at the ridiculous rates you keep claiming. Anocdotally, the last company I worked at bought hydrogen by the tanker to cool the generators. During the winter months, we would always have an extra tanker sitting in the parking lot to prevent supply disruptions. It would sit there for over a month, and still be full when hooked up.
More than lithium mining? Nice try.

Electric motor torque is great, it's the batteries that are not up to snuff. They won't be able to handle the higher steady load, and your range will be even more shit than usual, and in the countryside it's all about range.

That's a fucking lie. Torque drops proportionally as rotational speed increases. That's motors 101

lmao
The grid will need to be upgraded anyways, dipshit. Unless you're some sort of stupid hippie who thinks there's going to be some grand revolution in energy efficiency.
Natural gas isn't composed of the slippiest molecule in the universe.
Lithium mining doesn't have the potential to damage the ozone layer anywhere near even a small percentage of escaped, free hydrogen.
Are you sure you aren't larping? Or am I just responding to a retard.

And, I'd bet this is the case.
You probably took Amory Lovins bullshit seriously in your environmental studies class at your shitty liberal arts college, didn't you?

Pressurized gas systems are all really the same. You just need some improved valves and seals for hydrogen. Again, it's not anything new: we've been doing this shit at power plants for half a century, and even drunk indians can operate gas fueling systems without too many issues. There are zero issues with this part of hydrogen fuels.

Are you a dumb nigger or are you a dumb nigger? Look the fuck around. That revolution in energy efficiency happened over the last 5 years. Thanks to shit from programmable thermostats to LED bulbs becoming commonplace, the average household draws far less power than it did a decade ago. And to head you off, yes, we will need to upgrade the grid, but through steady growth and maintenance rather than embarking on some comically cash fueled crusade to jerk off over how green we're being.

No, just the oceans, water supplies, arable land, and air we breathe. Nothing too important.

Go read a book sometime, then maybe you'll be able to come up with a coherent and defensible viewpoint. I'd start with Franklin, or maybe little critter. That should be about your level

Not hydrogen systems, because hydrogen is the smallest molecule, and it's a pain in the ass.
Do you know why people at the hydrogen production facilities you seem to have a hard on for sometimes lead with a broom in front of them?
We're using more energy than we ever have. And we will continue using more energy than we ever have. The reason is not anything to do with efficiency, but just due to the fact that we will always find ways to use more energy.
With conservative estimates of 4x our current use by the end of the century.
Averaging 300 Wh per mile, driving 8,000 miles per month, some charge efficiency of 80% (conservative) you will consume around ~1200 kWh per month, of which only ~900kWh can be actually used by your Tesla, due to the efficiency.
As far as average household use, it's comparable to adding electric space heaters, but it's far more efficient than that.
Charging completely at home is also assuming that there are 1) no battery breakthroughs and 2) no supercharger-like infrastructure, which is drastically cheaper than hydrogen infrastructure and does not require the vast grid upgrades you are rambling about.
Thus, your leftist "MINING IS RAPE OF THE EARTH" bullshit falls apart, because it is based on these two assumptions.
Actually, around even, at best:
eia.gov/consumption/residential/
theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2011/jul/21/uk-household-energy-use
Yeah, you're a dumbfuck leftist who thinks that mining is inherently rape of the environment, mannn. I get it. Except, it's not.
I was spot on, you did really take an environmental studies class and really did think that we're all going to sit in our hovels and slurp less. Even with all of the efficiency improvements, we're consuming more residentially, and not less.

1) Just because it's smaller doesn't mean that the design of the system is any different. It just needs better seals and valves. Try getting that through your thick negroid cranium some day this year.
2) In the developed world, we've been handling and storing hydrogen on an industrial level for over half a century. It's only a 'pain in the ass' in your developing nation.

The same reason we have anti-static precautions at any facility that deals with potentially explosive gasses? I dunno, maybe read a book, then you'll be able to articulate it to me.

>In 2015, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,812 kilowatthours [eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97&t=3]
Yeah, I'm sure that will work out great.

Feel free to elaborate on this, or how a supercharging station is supposed to be cheaper or more convenient than a gas tank.

At least find a source that is somewhat in line with your bullshit, are you even trying?
And I never claimed we weren't growing, just that it was slow enough that the energy companies can handle it without needing the government to wheelbarrow over tax dollars

Sure, you can mine lithium cleanly, so I think if you cry enough, maybe the chinese will start to care. But if they started doing that then your hipster batteries will be even less economical, so best to see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

Nope, but keep trying with the name calling, eventually you'll find one that sticks. I'll even give you a hint cause niggers like you need a handicap. My field is STEM, so start from there.

Maybe I'm just old but I love the noise and the shudder and the feel of hitting the gear with all the torque. I also like going fast out east of the salton sea where having no charging stations would sure reduce the fun. I never see electric cars out there and I'm left with the impression that tesla owners never actually go have fun.

Again, it can slip through most materials and even the best fuel cells you're going to have in your car are degraded after a decade, because of the nature of the slippiness.
Your gas tank does not degrade after a decade.
You haven't answered the question of why hydrogen production workers sometimes lead the way, walking through their facilities, with a broom. It's because leaks, leaks, leaks. And the fact that hydrogen leaks can create an invisible flame with a small discharge.
Again, both of those sources clearly state that it has gone up slightly, not down.
Are you actually retarded?

Is there something you'd like to tell us, user?

No. This is not some kind of nigger voodoo. It's a smaller molecule so it can get past seals easier. This is solved with better seals and valves. You just keep saying the same thing over and over hoping it will become true. Cite a fucking source.

And petrol cars will continue to be the most economical for a long time yet. Your point?

I have no idea what you're getting at, or what it's supposed to mean. Broom voodoo maybe? Seriously, if you have a point, take a moment, recall that education the white man gave you, and articulate it.

>Energy use per household has actually gone down slightly Literally from the second full paragraph of your second source
Does your nigger brain have enough self-awareness to recognize your incredible mental gymnastics, or is the narcissism preventing that?

(from my earlier post)
I recognize that subhumans like you are reproducing fast enough to outpace efficiency improvements. But not fast enough to come near the 150% increase that battery cars would cause. The energy companies can handle the growth from nigger babies. Not so much from teslas. Not nearly as easy as they could do hydrogen production.

Yeah, that retarded leftists are delusional and think everyone's going to stop slurping energy by living in a hippie commune, and this is their naive solution to climate change: "just stop using energy so we can switch completely to solar panels and wind turbines lmao" because there's no way in hell they'd cover even current energy consmption levels, not even getting into how polluting they are
The efficiency improvements over the last few decades were good, but it only staggers the problem, and there has been a net increase in consumption energy, even residentially (however slight) where the improvements have been the greatest and should have dramatically reduced average consumption.
Increased energy consumption is just a fact. We will always find more ways to harness and use more energy, even residentially. And it will continue to happen until intelligent life is gone.

For reals tho anons, the only chance we have to handle the growing energy crisis is to put solar panels on the moon. Replacing cars with trains would help but it won't be nearly enough.

Free hydrogen literally escapes through the fucking metal of the container and makes it brittle in the process, i.e. it degrades over time, faggot.

That's it user, let it out. Let it all out.

Probably because of the next sentence, where it states that single person households have increased, and that single person consumption has gone up.
And why hasn't it gone down dramatically, I wonder, despite your proclaimed "efficiency revolution."
Let's put on our thinking caps, shall we?

Embrittlement is a non-issue with plenty of materials at room temperature. Same for seepage. Honda's hydrogen tanks are made of carbon fiber that's immune to embrittlement with a polymer seepage liner. Not too sure about Hyundai, they just say 'carbon fiber'.
And of course there's option 2, where the period for embrittlement to affect soft steel tanks is really long, and the tanks are really cheap, and seepage is so low it's not worth worrying about. Seal leakage is the part where you lose real volumes of gas.

Per household, as I said, it has gone down. More households consuming less power = more total power consumed. Really not fucking complicated. Except for niggers I guess

the grid itself doesn't need upgraded. We have excess capacity so that even if 3/4 of people go out and buy a car and charged it at night there would be no "shortage" overall.
tec.ieee.org/newsletter/january-2014/plug-in-vehicles-generate-new-variables-for-power-grids
this isn't even getting into efficiency improvements like load balancing with a botnet grid, where a utility could offer discounts to customers who are essentially queued up to charge at times where it would not put strain on the grid.
what has actually been a problem for utilities, and it's not really a problem that will cause rolling blackouts, is 'clusterization" of electric vehicles. i.e., years ago it was secluded to certain high-income neighborhoods in california.
randomization with this by dramatically reducing the price will make this "problem" negligable.
if there are any upgrades that are needed, it's routine modernization, which will be needed anyways. nothing to do with a shortage.
and as far as local battery storage during off-hours, that might be a thing too, but I doubt it. generators, battery storage and uninterruptable power supplies are pretty niche.

Not in the US, faggot.
Apparently it is to you, because you don't seem to understand that it's contrary to what you claimed was happening with your efficiency revolution.
And, again, per household, it has not gone down dramatically.
Again, they expire in a decade. It's right on the fucking tank. "DO NOT USE AFTER X/X/XXXX"

also, according to the PNREL and that article, the real challenges come during the day with work/retail charging.
not anything to do with residential charging.
and really, if it did become a problem for residential, you could just use some interface trick to discourage charging during traditionally peak times, and encourage users to develop the habit of proper night charging. you can also add other safeguards like monitoring AC frequency to stop charging when an unexpected event occurs, en masse, essentially a shock absorber, if we're not using smart grids to essentially queue up and load balance.

so, the idea that there needs to be massive upgrades to support a pitiful, what, 800 or so kwh consumption monthly on average extra is just not in the realm of reality. the real concern is when, and where, that happens.

Elon Musk drives a Mercedes when he is not being driven around in a limousine to lobby congress for more taxpayer subsidies. He will never wait at a truckstop and face the possibility of meeting one of his angry victims with buyers remorse. Musk is a reptilian lizard who feeds on Nikola Tesla's karma and the american peopel's sweat and blood.

except people don't drive that much.
msr-waypoint.com/en-us/um/people/jckrumm/Publications 2012/2012-01-0489 SAE published.pdf
nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pd
yeah and they recieve a pittance per capita compared to any other energy solution. you might as well start bitching about how natural gas and oil is US government backed, but then again it wouldn't allow you to ramble about golf carts.

the problem, as always, is range anxiety.
once it hits the sweet spot of 450 or so miles of capacity, maybe 300 in cold weather, you're going to see some serious shit.

also keep in mind you can hit 400 or so miles range with the 85kWh pack in the model S.
it's coming, and fast.