The working-class is cucked to all shit

Do you mean a race is superior because of skin color?
Shouldn't you be in >>>/gulag/?

Who are they supposed to vote for? The democrats shit on their face and laughs of it. And they won't even stand for the working class once they are in charge.
Have you seen who is financing Hillary's campaign?
You think Bernie is going to keep the banks in line? He voted against the audit on the federal bank, the biggest, more powerful and more toxic bank in the world. He had a chance to show the world what was going on there so some clean up could be made. He choose to prevent it.

Trump is going to fuck us all deep and dry but at least, he give us a massage on the foreplay. This is all we have left.

$400 a month does not prevent you from being poor, but it sure make things easier when you actually are part of the working class.

Agreed. I made the correction earlier in the next post. UBI would not make things 100% fair. Just more fair. Since you're still giving a cut to porky.

The purpose of the UBI is to make life more bearable for the majority of the working-class. It forces Porky's hand. Porky has no intention of shortening the work week. Porky has no intention of keeping salaries the same while simultaneously shortening the work week for salaried staff.

Porky has no intention of raising hourly wages for hourly staff. So what can you do other than seize the means of production? You redistribute wealth from the bourgeoisie and the high-income wage slaves (the lapdogs who are content with their position in the status quo) to the working-class majority.

In my province (Ontario), in 2011 apparently 50% of the income is held by people who make $80k+ CAD/year (I doubt that since the rich hide a lot of their income from prying eyes but let's go with $80k+/year as an example).

So if you were to distribute a basic income (say $20k CAD) to every single adult in my province and a smaller amount for minors (say $8k) assuming that minors have an adult guardian, basically everyone who makes under $80k+/year would see their share of the purchasing power increase. And everyone who makes $80k+/year would see their purchasing power decrease.

And the bottom line is that the vast majority of the adult population makes less than $80k/year. So basically, basic income would benefit most people. It would only hurt the wealthy and the high-income lapdogs ($80k+/year. And that's a very conservative estimate. In reality, the top 50% of income in this country is concentrated in far fewer hands than what shows on paper.)

Then they will ask the government to take away freedom of thought because a trans could get zir feels hurt. This is not the socialism you are hopping for.

No, he's making some sort of racial essentialist argument that black people are brutes who only respect raw power, so… eh, hang on, you're right.

I also think UBI could shut down a lot of idpol. The poorest and most downtrodden people are usually the most vulnerable to idpol because they need a common identity to hang their hat on and derive self-worth from. With UBI, everyone has a modicum of greater security and doesn't feel as vulnerable or eager to hang their hat on an identity; hillbilies don't feel as threatened by homosexuals, stormfags don't feel as threatened by immigrants, feminists dont feel as threatened by men, etc, because they have the basis for greater autonomy in their lives.

UBI could cripple idpol and make the inevitable need for class consciousness that much harder to deny.

But where will the money come from?
And you don't ignore that getting ends meet is the number one reason that get people to work. If they already have a decent income, who will take away the trash or build houses, or work in the field?

Gays would still want marriage or polyrelationship marriage, racists will still want a racially pure country with an unique culture, feminists will still bitch about manspreading or god know what. You won't fix social issues with money.

Unemployment and retirement funds are the scaffold it'd be constructed around, supplemented by some degree of consumer taxes, increased taxes on the wealthy and hopefully even recovered Panama Paper money. Since UBI has been proven to have a vast spiderweb of great multiplier effects, like reducing crime and hospital visitations, that would offset any initial deficit spending.
Not according to everything recent behavioral sciences have shown us. Most UBI pilot programs have shown that only the most vulnerable people whose choices were work or die despite their special conditions, ie children or new mothers, ceased working while UBI was implemented.

I'm not suggesting it would abolish idpol entirely, I'm just saying that the part of idpol that is fueled by discontent and precarity would be undermined, and that's a worthwhile stepping stone.

So, my retirement is going to be $400 and I still have to pay full taxes? Call me porky but I won't support this. If you want to get the fiscal paradise money, go and collect it, no matter what you want to do with I support you but don't spend it before you have it.

I didn't even know it existed somewhere. Do you have a link?

The government would run a deficit obviously to distribute the basic income. Which would inflate the money supply. People who make up the top 50% of the nation's income would see their purchasing power decrease in a basic income world due to inflation (due to income inequality, only a small minority of the country holds 50% of the nation's income. In my province of Ontario, apparently people who make $80k+/year hold 50% of the province's income. Though if you factor in tax evasion and people hiding income overseas, in reality income is even more concentrated).

And people who make up the bottom 50% of the nation's income (the vast majority of the working-class) would see their purchasing power increase.

Is your opinion of the human condition so poor that you think people would be satisfied with just the basic minimum income? People want nice things. They don't just want a roof over their head, food on the table, public transportation, health care and so on. People would want to strive for more in a basic income world. As they do now. They would just be better positioned to strive for more in a basic income world. You don't just need a job in order to have nice things. At present you need a full-time job just to survive. Which is exploitative as fuck considering how much bank the wealthy are making off the backs of workers. And the small sliver that workers get from their labour productivity.

And before you talk "muh national debt", the national debt isn't even a real debt. In a country with a sovereign monetary policy (like the United States, Japan, UK, Canada, etc.) the national debt is a "debt" that the country owes to itself. It's not real. The "economic crisis" is in fact man-made and fake. It's total bullshit. Modern Monetary Theory and the Zeitgeist Movement (Resource-Based economy theory) goes into detail about how the national debt is fake.

I don't know exactly what the basic income payout will be, but I'm reasonably confident it'll be higher than that. Another thing to remember about UBI is that the only reason we're even seriously considering it right now is because automation is pricing human labor out of work, so your $400 or whatever will probably go a lot, lot further in your retirement due to cheap robot labor.

UBI has been trialed everywhere from Canada to Namibia, here's a handful of links:

motherboard.vice.com/read/the-mincome-experiment-dauphin
basicincome.org/news/2015/12/finland-basic-income-experiment-what-we-know/
spiegel.de/international/world/a-new-approach-to-aid-how-a-basic-income-program-saved-a-namibian-village-a-642310.html

Then we turn into Greece and we have that austerity bullshit or it is a cassus belli. We already have a ton of debts and we will have to repay it one day. If you idea is just to reduce all the salaries and to distribute that money you don't know what a strike is. You don't divide salaries by two without making some kind of reaction. The one who can go to another country to be payed a "fair" share of their work will leave and you are left with a low skilled population.

I will be fine with $20k per year like you say. I will get myself some decent land and use the money to build a house while I am growing my own food. Me and my wife would get a 40k a year, why would we loose our precious time to get a little more we don't need? I only assume I am not some kind of freak and most people are not too different.

Take the welfare money and divide it by the number of people, I am for it. It will fight unemployment and help people.
Give a free salary and no one will keep working.

I think you just want others to work for you. You are not different than porky, just poorer.

Greece does not have a sovereign monetary policy. They deal in Euros. They are therefore the European Central Banks bitch.

The United States controls their own money supply. Japan controls their own money supply (this is why Japan hasn't gone "bankrupt" even though their pubic "debt" is like 226% of the GDP). The UK controls their own money supply for now. Canada controls their own money supply. etc.

If Greece sacks up and leaves the Eurozone and goes back to the Drachma, they will recover eventually. They will go through growing pains at first obviously since the cost of imports will shoot through the roof if they scrap the Euro. But Greece has used the Drachma before. They will live.

Our creditors have a different opinion, and in the case of the USA, China is a big one. They won't forgive that debt without some military action.

When droids will be doing all the work, then it will be fine to take the droid's product away from them to distribute it to the human population but for now, they are biorobots.

See you when the singularity happen.

Also the national debt is a spook. It doesn't exist. It's bullshit. Read the post above here

Reducing overhead costs associated with welfare state bureaucracy and the positive multiplier effects of UBI like lower crime and less strain on healthcare services robustly offset deficit spending anyways.

We already have many droids doing much of the work. UBI could start gently in a way that represents the proportion of the total value they're creating relative to biorobots.

This vocal minority, of bourgies, will only ensure the degradation of bourgies, just like in Roman empire.

Isn't racisms greatest when it's not racism? :^)

KEK!
Sure, am all for leaving the Eurozone. Sure will have 3-5 years of shit, but then we can rebuilt. If only it was done back in 2011.

But claiming that "The US has it's own money supply" when it's EXACTLY what the EU adopted with the central bank (and failed because the union is not politica/national, but only economical), IS TOP KEK!

US doesn't have "money supply". The federal bank does. Does the US gov control the Federla bank? Or is the opposite true?

Reading it. The first one "forget" to tell how much money was the UBI. It's a pretty important information but it is just not here.

The second one is made with international aid money, so my thought that money have to come out of nowhere is not disproved.

SUCH NEOLIBERALISM!
WOW!
MUCH HUMAN NATURE!

Nobody is disputing your concerns about how to pay for UBI, I'm just linking these cases to show that A) this has been attempted with serious thought and effort before and B) folksy commonsense neoliberal bullshit about "muh human nature, gotta threaten destitution to make labor go" didn't hold.

There's plenty of other discussions here about how to pay for it.

Argentina did that some years ago. It was clearly not a good thing for the Argentinian people.

Again, if you borrow money to someone, you have to give it back one way or another. Sure you can try to screw others, but then the others countries will give you trade sanctions and no one will borrow you anything for the next 50 years. Your economy will suffer.

When we speak of UBI, we should say an approximate number because you are expecting the consequences of a $20k per year UBI while paying only two.

Give ME a free salary and see if I continue to break my back.

One of them was so serious we can't even know if it was one $ per head or the minimum wage the other was made with what some could call other people money.

We don't owe anything to China. China has a bunch of US Dollars (which are like IOU paper notes). What can China do with those US Dollars? Buy American assets or buy assets from other countries that accept US Dollars. Eventually the holders of those US Dollars are going to want to "cash out" and purchase American assets somewhere down the line. But we don't have to sell them our assets if we don't want to. And we can devalue their US dollar holdings (by inflating the money supply) whether they like it or not.

China would be retarded to declare war on the United States. lol. If the Chinese lose confidence in the US Dollar, what will happen is that the Chinese will stop hawking their crap in the United States. And Americans will have to make their own shit again.

I'll give you a free salary, once robots can do your job.

Till then, I'll give you enough money, for less work hourse, and have more people working with you.

Argentina is much better off than Greece at this point, though.

THE PROBLEM IS CAPITALISM!

If I was Comrade Prime Minister of Canada, I would welcome China taking their ball and going home. I'm tired of China peddling their crappy wares in Canada. Give me a $20CAD/hr job in a factory making Blackberry smartphones until automation is fully realized. I'd be happy to take that job. We don't need China. Fuck China.

If you refuse to pay what you owe to China, the only country left in that category will be Liberia. You really want to use the military to leech other countries money? But what do you find so repulsive with porky?

Fine. I am happy that you understand you can't give me a free salary before. Now can you make a robot to do my job, because their is not going to be one anytime soon.

Greece tried to do your trick but they forgot to borrow money from country less powerful than them.

The only market for that job will be Canada.
Also, China will pay itself by seizing the investments Canadians made into China. It's an interesting way to fuck porky but who will build that Blackberry factory and who will borrow you money for the UDI once you pissed of China?

Ye… sure… there isn't…

Nope. We belong to the west and are not allowed to do buissness with other countries.
SUCH FREEDOM! MUCH SOVEREINGTY!

(Also, what less powerful country? Is there such a thing that could lend money to Greece?

UBI isn't a "salary" by its definition, and it doesn't need to wait until every robot does every job before it can be implemented in some form. Just have UBI increase as automation-created value increases relative to worker-created value until the latter are happily unemployed.

Your jejune "gotcha" argument that literally every last job has to be gone before UBI can emerge not only suggests you have no idea of what is happening in robotics, or that you fail to comprehend that UBI can start modestly and increase, but also that you have some kind of pathetic Calvinist obsession with work being vital to your moral health.

The state.

Abolish Capitalism. There is no refomist way out.

Not with that kind of practice. You borrow money with the intention of devaluate it after, you can suck our asses if you want our money again.

And I am going to buy the blackberry made by a Chinese kid paid with food. Good luck selling a 3000$ blackberry.

Not according to certain people. You have to be explicit about what kind of UBI you are talking about. Robots are currently tools made to increase productivity, not droids doing human's job. The guy who do the work can produce more. If you want a share of his product you are porky. It is that simple.
Work another job and use other robots to be productive at it and we will be quite. There is a lot of bob to do right now, if you sit and expect money you are just a leech.

Good luck giving an UBI without dealing with capitalism. What would that look like anyway?

Why should the American working-class pay the price for the American government selling them out to the Chinese and American Multi-National Corporations? Instead it is the American elite that should pay the price for selling us out. We need to kick the crooks out of power and seize the means of production.

Yeah, do that if you want, China will want it's money back and you will have to deal with them. And again, others won't borrow you money.

Why would we need to "borrow" money? We can print our own money. Borrowing hard currency (assuming that your national currency is devalued, as is the same for a lot of Latin American countries) is only necessary for purchasing imports. The United States and especially my country of Canada are nations with a vast supply of natural resources.

Besides if we need natural resources from a particular country, we can trade them whatever excess resources we have in exchange for what we need.

Countries who don't have a lot of natural resources (ie. Greece) are going to devote a larger share of their labour hours to exports. Which will lead to a lowered standard of living for their people. But Greece will be fine after the Grexit. Just like they were before they joined the Eurozone. There will be an adjustment period naturally. But the bottom line is that people are going to want to visit Greece on vacation. They're going to want Greek workers to labour for them. Things will move towards an equilibrium as Greece is forced to export more and import less.

Hardly. user just sounds like he's making a generalisation based on culture. Like saying blacks like rap music. Gee, so racist guys. Get over yourselves.

Sage for off topic

This meme. That's not how capitalism works. lol. RIM will charge what the market will bear for the Blackberry. Labourers who make $20CAD/hr are not going to be willing to pay $3000 for a smartphone. I can guarantee you that. RIM is going to choose the equilibrium price that is going to maximize profits for them. If the price is too high, no one is going to buy your product. If the price is too low, you are leaving money on the table and that's not good for your shareholders.

This.
Though, Greece has resources (minerals, agriculture and so on) but, CAPITALISM.

Add the central planing from EU, and Greece is supposed to be for tourism and nothing else.

"But what about wine?"
"NOPE! France makes the wine in the EU!"

And people thing EU is not worse than USSR.

But, none of these will happen, unless the EU colapses, cause the people don't want to lose their seccurity.

Maybe I'm ill informed but I read that Greece doesn't have a whole lot of natural resources. This is why they have to import fuckloads more than they can export. Though it doesn't help when Brussels tells Greece "no non, you no sell Ouzo in the EU. That will make the French winery producers butthurt." Give me a fucking break. That's not free trade. That's bullshit.

They remain "class-cucked" because the Left keeps failing to articulate a coherent vision of the future that benefits them. Modest SocDem reforms to healthcare and education won't bring middle-class jobs back to rural America. UBI and expanded handouts won't recreate the prosperity and growth previously enjoyed by blue-collar workers. At best, reforms like these will staunch the economic bleeding but leave the disease of capitalism (and the reality of working poverty) in place.

A revolution might do the trick, but good luck convincing anyone to engage in a bloody collective struggle against the bourgeoisie in this day and age. Plus no one has a damn clue what a proper socialist economic system would look or function like on a modern, national scale.

The only real solution I can see is to go full AnCom on the working class. Start forming collectives out in rural Nevada or wherever, encourage self-sufficient industrial and farming communities, confederated together, without engaging in the larger capitalist economy. Get enough of these going and the larger American population will start to listen to the "Left" instead of praying for a miracle or a demagogue billionaire to deliver them from this hell.

An anarchist collective disengaged from the larger capitalist society would probably be raided by the government. After all, no one in this collective would be paying taxes I assume? The IRS can't have that. lol.

Also people I think are accustomed to the modern trapping of life. Broadband internet, smartphones and other goods and services purchased within the greater capitalist society. I think Bernie Sanders' message is more palatable to them. His message just isn't as palatable as Donald Trump's populism to working-class whites and Hillary Clinton's mainstream Democratic bullshit (I can't wrap my head around why Blacks and Hispanics support the Clintons…) to working-class Blacks and Hispanics.