let's be honest here, most of the animating that people do isn't worth minimum wage. you want to open up the job market so any animator in the US can start working? remove the minimum wage and negotiate your own pay
you want to make the big bucks as an animator? be the guy who can make these ultra-fluid animations. be the guy who can direct and storyboard these scenes
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The following points have been important for the development of anime, which is not only the biggest animation industry but also mostly domestic.
1. Almost every animator is paid per drawing. The faster and more accurately you can draw, the more money you make. In the past people could slack off because they were getting paid the same regardless of how much work they did.
2. The industry is comprised of many studios that all do work for each other, so it isn't necessary to keep a large permanent staff and there is always work for you to do. Freelancers also exist.
3. Drawings are used efficiently and sparingly, their amount is modulated according to the needs and importance of a scene (and available resources), there are many techniques besides animation used to tell the story, and there is the clear vision that storytelling is the primary objective. American animation is so fixated on the amount of animation that its quality and purpose are considered irrelevant, a high framerate is maintained even when it's detrimental to the animation, and there's hardly even an awareness of the individual drawings that make up the animation. Things that may have worked for Disney shorts and features don't necessarily work in television.
There's other points too but these are the most relevant to animation. There might also be more esoteric differences like how shows are storyboarded.
So why would anyone become an animator, when they could get more money doing anything else? The whole "negotiate your own pay" idea is fucking retarded nearly at all times, because there are jobs that ANYONE can do, and businesses NEED those jobs done. Especially in a time when people are bitching about immigrants, most of whom would GLADLY work for less money than an American.
Do you have experience in the industry? Have you gone to school for animation? Do you have any basis at all for these being GOOD ideas, besides rhetoric you thought sounded convincing?
Are you trying to get Sausage Party 2 going, and need some cheap labor to exploit?
You could pose the same question in Japan.
Not really. Because the answer is probably that they love animation a LOT more than your average American, and as stated here: they are paid PER DRAWING not a negotiated salary. So let's try again without pointless deflection.
I thought the Japanese animation was going down the shitter? Is this vid accurate?
The question is just as valid in Japan. There are many jobs that pay better and are more accessible, yet people keep becoming animators. And you answered the question yourself by saying they are more passionate about animation, which means conversely that Americans aren't passionate enough.
That's from 2010 or 2011. It's old and was made when the industry was in a minor slump (probably as a result of the global economic crisis). It's also very misinformed.
So you want Americans to be MORE PASSIONATE about animation, for LESS MONEY.
I mean, that sounds great to the one guy who pushes himself and gets to direct, but he still NEEDS all the other animators. You're asking people to passionately pursue a career that will not pay enough for them to survive.
The Japanese do it, and have been doing it since the 60s. That's the reality of things.
Americans don't have to do anything, but they don't even have animation jobs because they've all been offshored. Budgets are still many times greater than in Japan though, so there is a lot of money to go around. In the extreme case of The Simpsons, a single voice actor's salary for one episode would cover the entire production budget of an anime episode, even two episodes.
The Japanese ALSO don't have jobs you fucking idiot. Those jobs were outsourced to Koreans who ALSO don't have jobs because those jobs are being outsourced to India and Jamaica.
When you remove bare minimums you really get fucking bottom of the barrel shit. The Russians are trying to turn it into prison labor and it's being outsourced to North Korea and you can tell because as time goes on it becomes more and more shit.
You have experienced Japanese animators claiming that the per-drawing system is impossible because you can't do per-drawing without either getting QUALITY shots where everyone is off model or spending hours per drawing if it's a ridiculous donut steel design or ultra shiny hyper reflective anime eyes. Shit I know animators in Canada who are complaining that they get paid per drawing and the director always wants a fucking stupid scene that could take far more than anything else in the show and suddenly their money takes a nosedive because of it.
You want good animation? Don't pay per drawing. Per drawing means shitting them out as fast as possible so you can afford to eat. Per drawing means you get a shit ton of errors nobody has time to actually clean up because if they stop they suddenly can't afford to pay rent. Per drawing is why every other studio is using cheap as fuck horribly done 3d models just to cut corners.
Every day someone out there is complaining that cartoons look worse than they did five years ago, and those were shit compared to five years before that, and so on. That's because dumbasses like the OP think that changing what works makes them some kind of economic genius.
I mean for fucks sake, you know why Disney's original golden age ended? It's because Walt kept trying the same stupid bullshit tactics and his animators kept leaving for greener pastures.
You're assuming that most people know how to do this.
What fucking version of DBZ is this pompous faggot watching?
The rest of it is pretty exaggerated and seems to pay no mind to the rest of the economy or political climate which contributed to the very simple problem that less money meant less anime.
I'm gonna keep going here because I'm on a rant and I'm kind of mad about this entire dumbass mindset. This is also exactly why you see VFX houses go under or take hard times so frequently. No sooner than you start making money than some studio boss decides he'd somehow make MORE money by trying to do it cheaper and fucks himself over either losing money or running a deal that fucks him over in the end. Even if you get to that vaunted director or manager position this is still a fucking terrible idea because eventually you're going to run into a point where you just can not do the work for a good margin and have to shut it down.
Animators, VFX artists, and motion graphics artists, are workers. They're there to work, not to negotiate contracts. The moment you decide you're Warren Buffet and you can just art of the deal this shit however you want the entire operation turns into a shitshow because a bureaucrat thinks that shitty work done for cheap is ok because he's more concerned with covering his ass at that moment than making a good film. Or you're sending work halfway around the world to a team that doesn't speak english and can't read the notes of anyone actually in charge and suddenly you need it all redone.
Film making is about art, not money. This doesn't mean you should just assume everyone is super passionate and will magically work on your concept for free. This means you need to pay them an actual wage worthy of a skilled worker who needs to go through years of training just to get a beginning position, so instead of worrying about irrelevant shit they can focus on work.
This is not true. Most anime production is still done in Japan. Even in-between animation and coloring are still done there.
The system's been in effect since at least the 70s and the results speak for themselves. And I mean the actual results and not the memes about QUALITY that revolve around a couple of .gifs that have been doing the rounds for years.
There are quality standards enforced. The animation director checks the drawings, and if they aren't good enough they are sent back with corrections or corrected by the AD themselves. Of course there are time limitations and not everything gets checked and fixed, but all in all it doesn't cause many glaring problems (and problems are often fixed on the Blu-rays).
3D models are mostly used for vehicles. Vehicles are much more difficult to animate than characaters but are also much more suitable for 3D animation. 3D characters are mostly confined to background extras, but not all of them are 3D (the closer they are to the camera the less likely it is that they'll be 3D).
You're cute.
Animation is done with computers and sweatshop labor now; they're paying less than what an American team would ever consider acceptable compensation. This is because animated works are, like all other forms of entertainment, treated as a business, and quality is sacrificed until it starts taking too great of a bite into revenues.
This actually could make it work.
Also, the problem with 3D characters isn't that they're cheaply modeled but that it's very difficult to make them look hand-animated while also keeping them cost-effective enough that they're worth using over hand-drawn animation.
It's not a meme, it's a consistent thing. You can see it in a wide variety of shows(I can't say most because I don't watch all of them, but I can say a lot of them). You just plain get bad shots in a far more consistent way as time goes on. And those problems aren't just an anime thing. As American animation races to the bottom you see shit like toonboom puppets breaking and characters going wildly and embarrassingly off model.
As for outsourcing, you can't claim it doesn't happen because there's a dozen studios that do it. It's also not just a Japanese thing because there's more than two countries that make cartoons.
That takes time. If you're demanding sub minimum wage for the same job it'll take MORE time. If you demand a shit wage and declare that suddenly a job isn't worth a living wage then you'll get shit workers with no formal training and no experience, but BOY will they have passion!
You still do see 3d pop up in those character, near camera situations, probably more frequently as time goes forward and it becomes simpler. But they basically always look like shit. You can't claim it never happens because it clearly does.
It is a meme. Yes, there are animation mishaps but they are not nearly as bad and as common as the mememasters would have you believe. People also seem to be expecting zero errors, which is either unrealistic or would entail dropping production quality to the bare minimum so "perfection" can be assured.
I never said it doesn't happen, I said most (i.e. not all) anime production is still done in Japan.
This is all just your theory, and not the actual reality of the industry.
Where exactly did I claim that bad looking 3D animation never happens?
You seem like someone who is fat and out of shape and keeps coming up with excuses as to why he can't lose weight and work out. Only in this case you're making excuses on behalf of the American animation industry. You're trying to make it seem like the anime industry actually doesn't work the way it does and actually doesn't have the success it does, because that way you can pretend the American industry's status is unavoidable and nothing can be or could have been done about it.
On the other hand there are those people who insist that the industry is actually perfect and the best in the world and no improvements are needed. This is the "fat acceptance" approach.
If you can go line by line with him, why did you skip this question:
animating already basically pays minimum wage, if that. I'm basically saying that I don't think it's career-worthy, but any art school drop out should be able to do it as a side-job to earn some extra scratch
I'm more or less saying to sell yourself to these companies. why should they pay you? what are your credentials? what's your experience?
if all you can do is these in-betweens, then I won't pay much. if you want to make it in any industry, I think you should try to get some skills that make you an asset
I'm assuming that most people aren't retarded, so yes
I think, thanks to computers, that we should more or less try to bring it back to the US from the sweatshops
this ain't backbreaking labor. this is just drawing several images in a row & lining them up to play sequentially. you want higher wages? give me higher quality
Well, I guess your animation will look like shit with in-betweens. Seriously, all your saying is that you're such a fucking jew that you are offended by minimum wage. People like you are why unions were invented, you want more work for less of your money, because you're just fucking cheap. What the fuck did you do to earn that effort? You can't even pay people a living wage for a days work?
But there are people who think just like you in the industry, and they're why animation suffers in the America. If you think it's wrong to pay people for their services, skilled services, you're unAmerican. Take your commie bullshit and make some more Chinese cartoons.
But you don't have any money to even do that, you're just spouting nonsense.
And you still skipped this question:
Yes, but that's kind of irrelevant here. I'm not about to post a full timestamped photo of myself with my real name and link to all my work. The best part of being anonymous is that arguments stand on their own merit instead of someone needing to pull rank on someone else.
But that was a different post alltogether. In fact it sounds like a different guy alltogether calling the OP(who I ASSUME is the same retard I'm talking to) a cock mongler.
Depends on how many images there are, how detailed they are, how complicated the animation is, how much time there is available, how many effects are involved, and so on. Family Guy is one thing and Unlimited Blade Works is another.
sorry, i meant to reply to someone else. i'm on the verge of sleep
but it looks like someone here got offended, m80. i know your unions got created because people are retards went all commie back in the day, that's why the job market is shit. i earned your work because i'm paying for it, but i don't think it's automatically earth minimum wage unless you can earn it
you want jobs to open up? you want animating jobs in the US? get rid of the minimum wage. they'll be able to hire everyone who wants a part in animation. you want to make more? prove your worth more
also, nice strawman there. i didn't say you shouldn't be paid for your service, i said i don't think that you can put a minimum wage on this kind of labor
you wan these shitty people to all make money, despite the fact that they keep turning up shit? hate to break it to ya, but THAT is communism
Have you seen that actual quality of work produced by the average art school drop out? If you think downgrading to that caliber of worker is a good idea there's not much I can say to you because there's a REASON they washed out.
As a general rule the guy who graduated, applied, got selected over maybe a hundred other applicants, and would be in front of you in an interview to negotiate isn't some burger flipping monkey. YOU want HIM. He made your shortlist. If you want to play games, he's better off leaving. Because people do try to play games like this and then the animators do leave. And then you need to waste time and money replacing them. Which means you need to pump that money you'd save into Human Resources. God help you if you try the "this isn't worth minimum wage" job on THEM because then it'll take you many times longer to replace you.
There's a reason idiots who try this shit go out of business. If you see some young up and coming studio and suddenly they run into hard times it's usually because some studio boss who thinks he's hot shit plays too many games.
I'm talking about doing the in betweens & shit
the art school graduate is the guy who makes the shows. they're the ones that do storyboarding and beginning animations
I don't think animation jobs that get outsourced are actually worth much & we should open up this market in the US. it'll bring the unemployment rate down, at least
The job market has literally never been better you fucking mongoloid. Provided you can keep up with new software there's so many films being made that any school worth a damn can claim it's graduates have an 80 percent or hire employment rate. Yes, California is a shitty place to be, but that's because of idiots like you who think that keeping wages low is the answer and then get shocked when nobody else thinks it's a good idea.
But I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here. You're not some executive or entrepreneur. You're one of the fifty million asswipes who went up to a professional and demanded they animate your super cool idea for an outrageously low sum. You got offended this guy who isn't a super cool director was somehow too good to work slave wages for you and now you're whining here that it's the fault of those fucking liberals.
Well you know what? You can have your free market utopia right now. Go to Deviantart and you can negotiate whatever the fuck you want with whoever the fuck you please. Nothing you'll get is above the standards of cheap deviantart garbage but BOY will you get your moneys worth.
I'm not talking about having low wages, once again. I'm saying that you should be able to negotiate your wages, but there shouldn't be a standard
only person who I think should put a value on your labor is the person you're working for. not the government, not the union jews, and not your handler
but, nerve i've struck in you aside, if I could then I would gladly hire some shit no-talent worker to do the stuff that ain't important and pay him what his "labor" is worth. only problem, the US has labor laws like the socialist jews they are, so that job gets outsourced
In betweens are fucking important. They make up the vast majority of actual frames in an animation and if they get fucked up you can still tell. Even the best animators in the industry usually had to start on inbetweens. Declaring that those people somehow aren't real animators is a very clear indicator you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
Besides, even if we presume you're somehow right that doesn't mean you can actually transition from shot animator to director flawlessly. If you actually talk to people who made that transition you quickly realize that the skills often have very little crossover. You get wunderkids like Neill Blomkamp or guys who can take the opportunity like Aaron Blaize, and animation is a good thing to know as a director, but they're far and away vastly different concepts. Being a director is increasingly a specialized track because you need to understand more than how to make a character move.
The thread literally opens with "a vast majority of animation is not worth minimum wage".
Don't move fucking goalposts.
there's a difference between low-waged animation and no-standard-wage animation
Then animate something and prove your opinion is worth anything. Negotiate for our attention, or you're just some asshole with dumb ideas that have no practical application no matter how you twist them.
Bringing "unemployment down" by being EVEN CHEAPER with animation means you just end up with more animators who can't afford a living wage. Which is as communist an idea as you can even make up.
I won't be holding my breath for that animation that you WON'T deliver on
If you can't afford minimum wage, you can't afford workers. You don't DESERVE workers.
yeah, it's great when something has a high framerate. it's not as important or high-skill as the actual creation process
and once again, put words in my mouth, why don't you. i never said you're not a real animator if you're doing the in betweens. i said that i think you're in the low-skilled area of work and are one of the more easily replaceable people if you're in there
You know what, yeah.
Lets see you animate a walk cycle, right this fucking second.
I mean it's super cheap and easy right? It's the most basic and common exercise in the book and that shit is already laid out for you. Since the keys are already plotted out you just need to in between and that's worth less than flipping burgers. If you're good enough that you can write policy obviously you can have that shit scratched out and cleaned up in an hour.
We'll wait.
You're the ones calling them shit no-talent, word for word. Now back it the fuck up.
yea, you and your legion of jews stop working, undermine all businesses unless they kowtow to you. that's totally not what a jew would do
i believe in freedom, but i think businesses shouldn't be held down by all this hebe regulation
you want a living wage? prove your work is worth a living wage. I'm not just gonna hand it out to you just cause you want it, you greedy motzaball muncher
If YOU call somebody for an interview they already proved that in the application process. Go eat a dick if you don't even know how to vet your own employees.
no, i don't have to prove myself to you jews
And we don't have to argue for minimum wage.
Funny how that works.
...
"Most animating that people do isn't worth minimum wage"
"Spending years training yourself in timing, human anatomy and draftsmanship so you can draw for hours a day isn't worth minimum wage"
we don't argue for it because jews decided to collaborate and fuck with their employers. then, when other people wanted to make an honest days dollar, they had the mafia shoot them like the jews they were
i'm saying that I don't that much of this is the kind of job that deserves even minimum wage. if you're the one designing it, laying out the framework, and ultimately creating it, then yes. you get money. if you're just there to do fill-ins, do a bit of coloring, basically the stuff that anyone who knows the first thing about art can do and are easily replaceable, then you aren't worth much unless you can actually prove it
maybe people should only do animation in societies that have no money
but then maybe you'd get more people pushing agendas than usual
The job you described still easily requires years of education. Color theory and anatomy aren't shit you learn in highschool, at least to the degree that the job actually requires it.
And fuck this "ultimately creating it" spiel. If you're the one who creates for it as your full time job then you're creating it. That's why there's full credit sequences and not just one giant splash.
that of course would be if there was a society on earth with no concept of money
preferably the motivator would be passion
Yeah, the PASSION to not take money.
Get the fuck out of here with your Karl Marx shit.
What if I just didn't want to credit half the animators out of spite? That's fine, too, right?
i think it would work better if instead if no money there just wasnt the problem of evil
or even better, if both there was no money worldwide a
no i think there might still be problems then
and that's why we have you with such a pitiful title as "assistant animation supervisor" or something
any jackass of the street can follow the directions if he's smart enough to pick up a pencil. i draw two frames, he just has to draw an in between
prove to me that's worth even minimum wage. prove to me your art degree has more worth than being folded up and used as a coaster
The fact that you're lobbing personal insults on an anonymous imageboard speaks volumes.
When? You said above you were too much of a pussy to even do a walk cycle.
I think this is really about you being jealous of real animators, so you don't think they deserve to be paid more than you. You may even unemployed. You haven't proven you have any knowledge of what you talk about.
You're telling me you can do all this, otherwise you haven't proven your opinion has any weight.
As far as I'm concerned, the thread was over when user zinged your ass above
hey, i didn't start this shit with calling you dreidle spinners out, but if you think i'm gonna stand by while you try and rub your greedy little hands together in the shade of your big noses, you've got another thing coming
it's not just the low-skill work in animating i have a problem with, it's low-skill work in general. these are the works that should be reserved for teenagers who're starting to enter the workforce, for people who want to make more money on the side of their main job, for students who need to try and keep up with tuition
thanks to minimum wage, people try making careers out of doing stuff like being a walmart employee rather than being even a walmart manager. I don't see why we should have to outsource the shit we do when we have a vastly unemployed population that would probably do it for an equivalent cost
oh, boo-hoo, mommy
someone on an imageboard said mean things
Well, I guess he's all cuckered out, he's got nothing left in him. I guess we can leave since he'll just repeat himself and try to pretend he's not the jew commie in the room.
Was this thread even Holla Forums related or just dumb political ranting?
talking to jews about animating. seems Holla Forums related to me
You're assuming that most people are even in the position to do this.
youre projecting your frustration and insecurities about your sad failed life pretty hard there, kid
They could bring back at least key animation, and then bring back more jobs after that if possible. But the people needed to make that happen probably don't care. Animation is not respected in America, and even audiences will say stuff like "who cares if it looks like shit, the kids will never notice."
Then again, the animators/potential animators themselves don't seem to have the necessary work ethic and passion either.
This might be true if your level of quality is extremely low. If it's high quality, no way is any random person going to be able to in-between.
You're n idiot.
Because it doesn't pay well, none of this pays well. You'd probably have a more stable future if you worked in a Home Depo than the animation industry. Shit, most Western Indie animation is either Tumblr garbage, pornography or international state funded shorts because foreign countries don't want American entertainment to over saturate their industry. So they fund some artists/ animators within their borders to do shit hoping one they they develop an industry within their borders only to have them leave for the States to work as a production assistant or a draftsman for a Micheal Bay movie which would pay 10 times more than their intended dream. This is also the reason why there's so many crappy Canadian cartoons and video games, their government pays for this shit and its not even worth it. And you ask why we can't have something similar in the States? Because the American Art industry/ Hollywood is self funded by philanthropist donors or people with too much money, that the government sees no reason to fund shit at all, maybe some college course buts that's mostly just it. This is a business, people will try to save as much money as they can or make the greater profit, art is the last thing on their mind and its a shame because a decade ago you i had these risk taking business men who would put out anything by anyone seeing if it'll stick or not. Now you have hippies from the 70's who refuse to experiment at all.
It doesn't pay well in Japan either, and there's very limited government support for animation.
But if Japan represents one extreme then America seems to be the other one. Too much money is expected, there's more interest in the money than the art, and even with the large episode budgets all the production work is still outsourced to Korea. Because voice actors need to be paid truckloads of money. A Simpsons voice actor makes in two episodes what a top voice actor in Japan makes in a year, and not all of that money even comes from just anime voice acting. That top voice actor will only make that kind of money for a few years at the peak of their career, I'm guessing.
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Japanese animators could probably stand to get paid a little more, but it's hard to say how much. There is a limit to how much the industry can spend on production costs, and if you push it too far you risk increased offshoring and financers (publishers, production companies, record companies etc.) becoming more conservative.
The japanese goverment are setting the limits?
Voice actors aren't animators. Comparing the two just reinforces that nobody in this thread has any idea what they're talking about.
No, the industry does. There needs to be a return on investment so there are limits to how much can or should be spent.
Please tell me where I ever so much as insinuated that voice actors are animators.
American shows spend a lot of money on voice acting, up to absurd amounts like $300,000 per (lead) voice actor per episode. That's money that could be going somewhere else. In the anime industry voice actors get paid much less, so production costs are lower.
Yeah, because those voice actors NEGOTIATED their pay. You know, the thing animators apparently should be doing(and DO, freelance work is a thing, it's just that no good freelancer will ever work cheap).
What you're saying is people should be free to negotiate wages unless they're somehow good enough to actually make a lot of money.
I'm gonna say it again, get the fuck out of here with your Karl Marx bullshit.
And the network accepted. Now they're paying them hundreds of thousands per episode. The point is that American shows overspend on voice actors and that money could also be going to other places instead.
They do in Japan.
I never said anything about negotiating wages.
The anime industry is capitalist.
It might be relevant for this thread but this is what probably happened with Sausage Party
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I thought the point was that minimum wage needed to be abolished and everyone needed to negotiate their pay?
Except they shouldn't if you think it's too much, apparently.
I didn't say anything about minimum wage or salary negotiation.