Systemd: Progress Through Complexity

For all of those who still aren't sure why the hate for systemd, here's a pretty good article on it. I'll put the conclusion here, everything else is too long to paste here.

ocsmag.com/2016/10/19/systemd-progress-through-complexity/
archive.is/TcazM

Other urls found in this thread:

islinuxaboutchoice.com/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

You know how many times sysv scripts failed due to some edge case and complexity? I can't even count, it's been so long. Dozens, at least.
You know how many times systemd has failed? Zero. In fact, it was only a week or so ago that I attempted to REISUB for some reason and got my first journal corruption. That's not even systemd though, and can be redirected to syslog.

There's nothing complex about systemd compared to Solaris or macOS init. The bitching is just autists who believe that they can sprinkle magical fairy dust to take all the things "that shouldn't be in PID1" out.
Except, these fucking retards can't name, what, exactly, is in PID1. Everything but the key-value format is parsed with generators outside of PID1. This leaves return codes and state, pretty much.

Good luck "modularizing" any of that without drastically increasing complexity of the PID1 you'll replace it with.

In short, this is a duplicate thread, and there's nothing to be gained by reading this shitty blog post except to be inundated with the incompetence of the author.

systemd is dope on an ssd.

kind of sucks on older hard disk drives.

it'll be baller when it gets true ondemand for daemons: right now it spins them up as needed but eventually it'll be able to spin them down and save power.

everybody has a whinge when distros make major changes: there was a big fuss when ubuntu dropped it's packages to install a full 32-bit runtime on 64-bit installs.

It might suck for pros who need to relearn all their admin shit, but I've seen it run on embedded and it's fucking amazing: it powers sailfish, ubuntu touch and eventually plasma-mobile.

I especially hate the faggots that say they're moving to bsd over this: bsd and mac os have had parallel launching of system processes and early socket activation for years now and literally nobody gave them any shit over it.

Stop talking like a nigger, for Christ's sake have some respect for yourself.

Not liking systemd is fine. But then don't go supporting shitty projects like Devuan when the entire system, from the kernel to the libraries to the package manager is complete complex bloatware. It's literally following the bandwagon for no reason.
The proper systemd-free experience is in things like Alpine Linux.

This is some real cia nigger tier shit.

I have the self respect to not indulge petty squabbles and do shit with my pc, this means sometimes I even display a little pragmatism.

I just taught a NEET how to install libreoffice, write, save, and find a file. And ultimately hope to reclaim the poor old bastard from the trashheap of life. I did that on his current windows install because I'm too busy for puritanism.

Judging me by my vocabulary is purely to your own detriment.

That's just an outright lie.
There is two ways to open applications in Gnome
You either press Super and type the name
Or you move your mouse to the top left corner and then select the application from the panel (or list).
The latter being extremely fast once you've got the mouse motion down.
All in all, compared to gnome 2 it is an improvement.

If you've ever written a systemd unit you know that it's easier than a sysv script.
You just tell it the executable path, the dependencies of you program and whether it's going to fork or not. And that's all you need to have a working daemon with systemd.
With sysv you needed a shell script that calls start-stop-daemon at some point, and do the rest manually. And that's always more effort.

That sounds like bullshit as well. I don't use Fedora so I don't know for sure, but I would assume that you can boot it in recovery mode.

Even if that were that case (which it isn't). What's stopping him from opening the source code and looking for line where that specific error message is printed?

So? Before systemd you still had the same number of components, the difference was that they weren't all part of the same tool chain.

This is just pure laziness at this point.

Now I have to call bullshit on him reading the docs of journald.

So he really thinks that Fedora package maintainers or too stupid to write unit files, and it only leads to problems on his system?

I doubt that


No, the Darwinist principles just states that more successful organisms will survive, and that's exactly what systemd is.

I conclusion, if I had encountered that specific error, I would've deleted the logs, and disabled logging completely, and that would have gotten it to boot at least.

systemd is controversial yet has many positive outputs so far (although that stop job will never end unless you force shutting down your server).

I'd be more worried about Xorg and Linux itself.
Yes linux is pretty much NOT 100% libre and popular distros even include non-free blobcodes directly from botnets like jewtel.

Xorg is still shitty.

I want the monolithic cancer to die together with the proprietary cancer. We need proper release cycle like they do on consoles otherwise we'll be stuck in this fucking versioning loop.

What we really need is Open Source Hardware and FOSS + PRIVACY.

Who cares about fucking systemd when 20 years from now the backdoors and botnets have evolved to quantum-powered nano-biomachines which can be found in the air or even that fucking muffin on that table.

Everything will become botnet:
Food botnet
Human botnet
Air botnet
Water botnet

Just fuck my shit up. The jewish overlords just invested all their gold in the biotech industry.

Biological botnets soon.
heed my warning

Xorg is modular, m8. It's not that bad for something following the X protocol.

kill -9 doesn't work with systemdicks?

At last I truly see.

The one thing I see systemd drones persistently try to force into every thread is this bipartisan fallacy. Install systemd because look at how sysvinit is broken, oh and let's conveniently gloss over the fact it's a distro-specific rc system of ad-hoc shell scripts that's actually being called broken, let's throw the entire plumbing layer out of the ecosystem out as collateral. Then let's dick-wave about irrelevant commercial Unix systems because systemd's hidden agenda is really to get a foot in the door to sell expensive enterprise support contracts for a mountain of chicken-chicken-chicken inanity that laypeople can't hope to learn.

Here's the thing: sysv init scripts have been a trainwreck since when I started using Linux in '95. No one has stepped up to /really/ do anything about it publicly except the systemd/upstart groups (and no, the band-aid solutions don't count). You can bitch and moan all you want about how you don't like the solution, but since you're not going to help make a different solution and would just leave everything as broken as it was before systemd, no one cares what you think.
systemd is good enough that a lot of the corporates that were maintaining their own init replacements are dropping them in favor of systemd. Every company in the networking space had a different hack for handling the integration of dhcpcd and ntpd (consider all the edge cases in DHCP option 42) that was different than the broken hacks you'll find in pre-systemd distros and they're finally coming together on this. That's a huge improvement to Linux's reliability out-of-the-box, which was very low before.

this thread:

No one did the work for any other init to make it as appealing for the switch.
There's a concept called technical debt. Are you familiar with it?
Why switch to something that gives autists erections when it wouldn't be solving much beyond making the shell scripts more "pure" and "simple" when deep down it's still shit-tier initialization that don't really fulfill all expectations, versus modern init systems like Solaris and macOS.

Already people have switched to BSD to get away from lennartware.

...

weak bait.

Autists aren't people.

They qualify more for peoplehood that you, a systemd shill, a useful idiot.

lmao

From now on I'm calling this botnetd.

Why?

More like Void Linux fam.

I just want a goddamn choice. That's all. Can I please just say "no thanks, I'll just have a system without sysd" without having random shit that doesn't even need it shitting its pants because of dependency.

Being ignorant about most stuff of sysd, why can't they just do that? Is there a technical, practical or political reason to just jump into it instead of offering options during install?

With "doesn't need it" do you mean "doesn't use it" or "shouldn't use it"? In the first case it's the distro maintainers' fault. I hear Arch likes to do that.

I can attribute every broken GNU/Linux system I've ever used to systemd. Every fucking time, there's some esoteric bug that I seem to run across. And every fucking time, it gets ages later after the systemd devs finally concede to the absolute gall that they could've made a fuck up, but not after I've had to wrestle with it for days before finally throwing my hands up, cursing Lenart once again, and going back to what I usually use. By contrast, I've never had an issue with sysvinit, runit, or busybox. They tend to just work.

I stopped trying to level with systemdfags because any and all of the points worth discussing have been discussed to death, and no systemdfag has presented an argument worth a damn, nor can I seem to convince any of them. It's done, it's over, and I'm more than content to use Slackware until either I die or GNU/Linux dies, and let the systemdfags do whatever they want to fuck up any and all other distros. Wish it didn't preclude me from using some computers newer than Ivy Bridge, but I'm too broken, stubborn, and stuck in my ways to cry over spilled milk anymore. Maybe when 14.3 comes out I'll look into it, but I'll sit on those newer computers and use what works until then.

They should have just made Emacs extensions instead of all this lame systemd shit. Then they could have replaced initd with Emacs, and you'd be one step closer to Lisp OS.

Sounds like a personal problem, unless you can tell us how systemd broke your system.

Works for me, you're probably incompetent.

...

lmao

I've had TWO instances where systemd-based installs refused to boot right after install. They never prompted me to drop to single-user mode, they never got to a shell, they worked just fine chrooting in, and of course, they showed ZERO information during the boot process, making it IMPOSSIBLE to diagnose the issue. Why show information on boot when you can tell users to dump their HDDs, buy an SSD, and show nothing to expedite the boot process that no longer reads ahead? And it wasn't a faulty install, because the exact same install on similar hardware booted to a shell no problem. It was just that hardware and systemd not getting along. Fuck you, cry about it, get fucked. And this happened twice, separated by a span of years.
logind is such a sore spot and all of the retarded decisions and backpedaling and backpedaling on the backpedaling is nearly impossible to keep track of. Do we still allow two TTYs open on the same computer anymore? Who fucking knows, the issue keeps flip-flopping between "yes, because reasons" and "no, because we said so" every time I look at it.
logind and computers not booting stick out in my head. There are plenty of times that I've wrestled with systemd for five minutes before giving up and putting the whole thing out of my mind. I don't even bother anymore because I know it just doesn't work, regardless of what I do. I'm not saying that sysvinit and runit and busybox distros automagically work, but at least when I encounter a problem, it's not with init, it's with something in userland. Usually those issues are more mitigatable.
Oh, but don't worry, now systemd is required for shit like multiple GPUs and PCI Passthrough, so we hope you enjoy gorging yourself on our feces!
Not an argument.

Honestly, all of you idiots that bitch about systemd have a good point. All systemd is doing is reinventing the wheel with nothing new for regular users. if anything it ruins things for everyone else be adding more init systems that aren't needed.

But it doesn't matter, because I use windows as a daily driver, and cygwin for a programming environment, because I'm not autistic.

"Linux" is a fucking disease. Run Plan 9 or just use windows. If the linux community wasn't insane, they would have stuck with one init system and then focused on actual features rather than a million window managers and incompatible init systems for every flavor of nerd OS.

rofl
good stuff m8

also, friendly reminder that this is the intelligence of the average faggot who complains about systemd


so sad when a user is competent enough to be dangerous to himself and others, yet not truly competent. but it is funny when they have "opinions."

Problem is that Microsoft is being aggresively antagonistic. You can either use XP, and be stuck with 3.5G of RAM and 32-bit programs only; use Vista, deal with the problems Vista brings, and be fucked after next Spring; or use 7 or 8(.1) and never, ever update because as of this October, from what I understand from all of the incredibly vague news reports, every single backlogged and future update has been turned into update rollups that try to slipstream spyware into your computer as early as humanly possible.
I don't have a problem with using Windows, but not on my main computer. Not anymore. I'd rather wrangle some palatable GNU or BSD distribution into working.

No, it's not.
Multiple GPUs are now a compositor and driver problem come wayland, it has nothing to do with systemd.
Neither does PCI passthrough. Are you brain damaged?
Did you try reading the fucking logs, you stupid retard?

How the fuck is init not working upon a fresh install with no modifications to any configuration files relevant to init incompetence. For that matter, when the fuck did ad homs become arguments?
I knew Holla Forums was bad, but I didn't know it was this bad. Christ.


I've read that anything having to do with teaming multiple GPUs requires systemd in order to work. I've read that PCI Passthrough works on some guys system somewhere that doesn't use systemd, but at the same time, every single piece of documentation involving PCI Passthrough includes instructions for creating systemd services to start at boot, and no alternative for anything else. Without a shred of documentation, it may as well not exist.
Of course I did. They provided me with as much information as it took to go search for the issue and find the bug report explaining the exact same issue I had with no recourse.

Enjoy your worse than poettering shit

You really don't have to justify your software choices to these cunts. There's nothing you can say that will be enough anyways

That's wrong, you fucking retard
Oh boo hoo, poor baby, can't even translate a simple systemd initialization script that someone else wrote into a shell script, and yet claims he's so competent and obviously knows best.
The bug report you obviously can't name, right? And the error you obviously can't remember, right?

Nigger, just kill yourself.


No one's justifying anything. I'm taking the piss out of retards who come here to bitch about how systemd is the big boogeyman yet they're so fucking incompetent they can't even translate an initialization script that's already basically written for them.

mah nigga.

>lennartd apologists telling people to just go write some code to solve their problem
Any and every one of you fuckers who ever suggests this as a defensible position for poor user-friendliness are the autists holding GNU/Linux back.

If you're talking about in the last few posts, just because no one wrote an init script to spoonfeed you how to do PCI passthrough on whatever autist initialization system you want to use is not systemd's problem.
It's your fucking problem. Write the init script yourself, you fucking tard. If you don't know how to do it, your opinion is worth less than dogshit.

Windows is outright botnet. Plan 9 hardly has any drivers, and probably won't run on any random new laptop. Even OpenBSD has trouble supporting everything, but at least enough of my computer works, and eventually they catch up with hardware support (except stuff that needs blob, like Nvidia).
Anyway Linux isn't like those, it's a kernel that you can build an OS around, nothing more. It just so happens that many OS (distros) have used same userland software for many things. But at its core, the freedom to choose what software you use is one of the key points of Linux. That's the whole idea behind the bazaar: a huge market where you can find everything and anything, to suit your particular needs and not be stuck running what redhat or lennart or anyone says is best for you. Without this freedom, and without the ability to exercise it without artificial hurdles, then talking about free software is hypocritical.

islinuxaboutchoice.com/
:^)

The point of that post is that it is about freedom, if you do the work.
Autists on Holla Forums confuse this freedom with "DISTRO MAINTAINERS SHOULD MAINTAIN MUH FREEDOM TO CHOOSE, ON THE FLY, 20 AUTISTIC INIT SYSTEMS AND DIFFERENT SOUND SYSTEMS."

If you build it yourself, it's all about freedom. Pick freely from the bazaar.
Just don't expect others to pick and construct their systems so that you have maximum choice.

there are bou 3 sound systems fam, and
lol no
stay asshurt

0.1$ has been deposited into your account
thank you for correcting the record

systemd is an init, with various additional and optional daemons. key word: daemons. more than a dozen daemons are packaged with systemd to do simple tasks, ranging from replacing shell scripts that did certain jobs previously, to managing sessions, to recording status/logs (and the binary optional, can be redirected to syslog, but it's needed to record status in memory at least), to resolving, to performing a gateway function to access the machine's logs, and so on.
some of these are mandatory replacements (logind) some are optional with some caveats (journald) and the rest are pretty much completely optional.
those two are not completely optional because, really, they're pretty basic.

retards like you have been told itt. you have no real arguments. you're all incompetent faggots, like the author of this blog post, or retards like

go back to Holla Forums, schizophrenic

i can just see the frustration coming from your post

systemDfaggots are the pagan larpers of the tech world.

Why?

there's no frustration, I rightfully enjoy calling out retards.
even if you think you're a rusemaster and are posting blatant bullshit that's easily called out, you're doing nothing but making the retards bitching about systemd look bad.
i'm sorry to say, rusemaster, but there's no virgin crying over the fact that you wrote incorrect assertions on the screen.

as always, this image rings true.

None of the usual criticisms are part of the botnet maymay.

Wrong, systemd's always been called botnet because of its complexity.

reddit autism in action folks

Seems like Holla Forums has moved past hating on systemd and actually started to like it now.

systemd is like a car that turns off if the driver (PID 1) gets out.

>>>/4chan/

Yeah, much like /g/

retarded faggot who thinks he can damage control by shouting "reddit!"

there's reasons to hate it, but their opinion is worth less than shit if they're incompetent and don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

sage isnt a downvote btw

*tips PID1*
SystemD users are LOGICALLY superior :^)

If you mean the guy making lengthy posts, he did say he had problems with it while making fresh installations where he didn't touch anything. Would be nice if he could be more specific, but just because he can't remember the bug right now doesn't mean he's incompetent. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and ignore him till the provides evidence.

my favorite feature of system d is bringing my laptop anywhere besides my home, and it not booting because there isnt a wired connection or usb HDDs

Did you have usb HDDs entries in /etc/fstab?
Also, how do you reproduce that one about wired connections?

I'm experiencing this wonderful feature right now. It's really great.

You don't have to do anything to reproduce it, vanilla systemd waits 3 to 5 minutes for an Ethernet connection at startup because it helps servers, which is fine because that way you have a dynamic address and your networks, but it is trouble for people that ever leave their basement.

I'm asking because I'm running systemd on my laptop running Debian Testing and I don't have that issue. I always use wifi.

I have debian Jessie and had to change around interfaces to remove all instances of auto and replace it with allow-hotplug to stop having to wait forever at boot. This is relatively fresh install.

Are you always connecting to the same wifi network? The problem comes up when you are booting somewhere that has no networks you can autoconnect to, so you probably aren't experiencing if you keep that computer at home.

That's because you set it up in a way that explicitly depends on an ethernet connection.
If you didn't hard depend, it wouldn't be shitting itself.

If it's the same message about upstart, it's just ubuntu being ubuntu. systemd isn't to blame.

what?
This is so obviously false that it demeans the seriousness of the whole article

...

lmao
gr8 stuff, as always

Who are you quoting?

Here you go, friend:

That's every init system, dumbass.

It's actually very hard to get systemd to do almost anything more than what it does out of the box. We're still 'integrating' it at work after a couple months.

What would you want it to do other than starting and stopping daemons?

No. I didn't have issues with my wifi at work or at my friend's house, even if my laptop didn't have those passwords saved.

Actually, I do remember having some issue like this when I installed it, but I attributed it to network-manager so I gutted that shit out and I'm using Wicd now.


I guess you meant didn't*
By what people are saying, it automatically sets itself up like this, which is dumb.

There's a tremendous amount of interconnection between services for one. DHCP NTP integration is a good example, and there are much nastier things like it for proprietary protocols and networks. Our device connects multiple networks (even using netns in some cases) and has a ton of dynamic interfaces. Things never work out of the box.

if you get out of a car the engine doesn't stop

No. No, it doesn't. Not on Debian, not on Ubuntu. Never had this problem on my two laptops.
One runs debian, which is using ancient systemd, and has since the switch.
The other runs arch.
Never had your problem on a laptop.

No one is forcing you to use their DHCP or their NTP.

The analogy is bunk because when every PID1 crashes, the system goes down. systemd is not alone in this category.

its not an analogy its truth

It's an analogy because you're comparing a physical object to a piece of software, you fucking retard.

We aren't, kiddo. It's the job of the init system to coorinate many of these interactions.

How is this systemd's fault? It's not like any other init system does these things.
I hope you're not one of those people whining about bloat.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was the job of dhcpcd to pass this information to ntpd.

Yeah, you use dependencies.
What's up with retards like you larping?

[Unit] Description=Chrony Network Time DaemonAfter=network.targetConflicts=systemd-timesyncd.service [Service]Type=forkingExecStart=/usr/bin/chronyd -u chronyPIDFile=/var/run/chronyd.pid [Install]WantedBy=multi-user.target

Either that or network-online.target
Also, you can even write your own targets with your own services that determine whatever you want.
See NetworkManager-wait-online.service

I have no need for this and it's easily found in three minutes. You're either larping, or your pajeet-tier IT is incompetent.

is software not physical?

If it were it wouldn't be considered intellectual property.

Software is always logical and abstract, just like the words on a newspaper or an image on a photo. This is one of the reasons why software should always be free for the user.

Well, there are a couple of people complaining about this, so it might be an issue, even if it didn't happen to you in particular.
I don't care too much because I fixed it but there's some situation that triggers it.

I said it's an issue if you're retarded and explicitly set it up to depend on an ethernet connection on boot.
It's solved by setting allow-hotplug to change the stupid mistake you made before.

ubuntu is defaulted to that (even ubuntu minimal where i had the same issue)
i thought systemD was supposed to streamline everything and make it friendly to normal people but it seems to me systemD has just made everything require custom configuration anyway. no normal person can do that, this is why osx is popular.