Left/Right Dichotomy and the Concept of Freedom

Much has been written about left-wing and right-wing politics, and many people have chosen a position without fully understanding what their side actually represents; or of why it supports the one or two issues which they have deemed important enough to sway them fully into the embrace of these vast and encompassing ideologies. In my personal experience one of, if not the most common reason for support of either is an abstract idea that we refer to as 'freedom', and to which we place immense importance and a sense of corporeality which largely does not exist. In the modern Western world it is the 'Left' that is constantly supported through media, film, radio and academia; the 'Right' largely portrayed as 'oppressive' and 'bigoted' with the 'Left' being characterised as 'liberal'; a word that denotes a follower of the idea of 'liberty', that is freedom. This is misleading.

If we are to imagine a line, with the left most point called the 'Total Left' and the right most point the 'Total Right':

The 'Total Right' is absolute and unrestrained freedom, it is total individuality wherein the adherent may act in whatever way he so desires. There are no laws.

The 'Total Left' is absolute control, the adherent living according to laws which influence every facet of their lives.

This is likely an image that many would reject upon first being introduced to it, as their perception of the left/right dichotomy is full of words that imply the opposite. However my use of the word 'freedom' in regards to the 'Total Right' may be deceptive, as 'freedom' is largely an abstract concept. In general we can define freedom as 'the ability to act as one desires', to have 'absolute freedom' would by such a definition imply the ability to act as one desires in regards to any and all circumstances; however the 'Total Right' would likely be very oppressive and in practice a lot less free than a more central position between the 'Left' and 'Right'. Allow me to demonstrate with an example:

In this world of the 'Total Right', there is a man who grows a hallucinogenic plant and intends to trade it for the resources he needs to further his life and grow his business. Another man takes a different path in life; rather than creating something and trading it, he decides that he will dedicate his life to martial ability, and then force the first man to give him his money or else he shall kill him. This is all perfectly legal as there are no laws.

For the first man to be successful, he has to hide from the second man or train himself in the way of combat. As we can see, he is no longer 'free' to pursue his life's work of growing his hallucinogenic plant and selling it. Instead he is forced to take steps to protect his life and his business; he is no longer 'completely free' as was first implied by the 'Total Right'.

Were there laws agreed upon by society that stated unwarranted physical violence and theft were 'illegal', and would be punished by the 'collective' of society if broken; the first man would be 'more free' to live his life in the way that he desired. As such by sacrificing some 'freedom' (in this case theft and assault) you in fact gain 'more freedom' and can act to a greater extent as you desire to. If one's adherence to the Left or Right is to be defined by how much freedom one has, it is therefore necessary to find the perfect balance of rules (the left) and lack of rules (the right); and this is where politics becomes complicated.

For the second man in the example, his freedom is restricted by the already conceived of laws, and thus he may well be against their construction. To the modern day Leftist, anyone supporting the 'Right' is similar to this man. They embody oppression and violence, and if not restrained by 'laws' will potentially run rampant and ruin their ability to live life. To address this they must make laws, enforced by violence, to stop him acting as he desires. Now in the scenario that I have constructed it looks like the 'Left' are being the rational ones; they are desiring to stop theft and violence, which allows everyone to live a decent life so as long as they are content with what we might call 'honest work'. Society as a whole can grow and be fruitful.

Let us now look at the opposite extreme. If you have been paying attention to the media in recent years, you will have heard much about 'freedom of speech' and a thing called 'hate speech'. 'Freedom of speech' is a right-wing concept that allows for criticism and discussion of any concept; be it a monarch, a religion, a cultural norm or anything. It allows for us to push boundaries, for humans to find flaws in what might have previously been called 'sacred', to refine and perfect institutions, beliefs and life in general. 'Hate speech' is a Leftist reaction, declaring that unrestrained 'free speech' leads to 'oppression', and thus affects their 'freedom'. The Leftist here has changed the abstract meaning of 'freedom' once more, where before it was assumed that we were free to 'physically' act as we so desire; the Leftist is now asserting that they desire 'freedom' from having their feelings hurt or their sacred concepts blasphemed. This is of course a very different perception of 'freedom' than that of the previous example of the man being at risk of having his livelihood stolen, or his life ended should a law not be in place. This is putting a law in place to protect one's feelings, or their understanding of the world (even if they are wrong). To the right-winger the Left is now being oppressive, threatening violence (for that is what law is, a collective decision to unite to enforce a rule should it be broken) if the Right criticise them, their beliefs or their institutions.

To uphold the 'freedom' of the Leftist who desires 'hate speech' to be illegal in the above scenario would be similar to upholding the 'Total Right' man who desired to steal from others by the threat of violence. If the Leftist believed that all races should be equally represented in all positions (as many do with their 'affirmative action' and quotas), it may well go against a man's desire to create a family business. For the family-business desiring man, arguing that other races are not necessary in his company could be construed as 'hate speech', and thus end with him being punished. Such a law deprives him of his freedom to act as he desires. As with the example of the 'Total Right' thief prone to violence, the reason why we should be on the side of 'family-business desiring man' is because you are interfering with their right to make an 'honest living'. By only allowing people in his family to partake in his business he is not harassing anyone, yet by forcing him to take people he may not want you are harassing him; thus his right to an 'honest life' has been taken away.

It is now necessary to examine what 'honest living' is. Honest living is a simple concept; it means that everyone is capable of living and prospering in their lives should they be left un-harassed, and not harass others themselves. It would include agriculture and hunting, merchants and retail, artisans and craft-men, fishermen and builders. These professions, assuming practised 'fairly' (which means much the same as 'honest living', that it does not exploit or harass others in its practice) allow a person to lead a prosperous life without causing harm to anyone else, and should they all be leading such a life no 'law' would be needed. We of course still need some laws to protect these people should another decide that the 'honest life' is not for them. 'Hate speech' is thus an enemy of 'freedom' in its 'fair and honest' incarnation, as it potentially deprives a man of living an 'honest life'. It is important to note that the law can only truly protect one's freedom in regards to actions; feelings are impossible to legislate for, as each man may feel differently in his reaction; and the purpose of the law is to allow for physical freedom for the collective of society, not one individual or another.

In my view it is by this concept of 'honest living' that we can define when a law becomes tyrannical and oppressive, and when it exists to prevent tyranny and oppression. If our desire in politics is to create the 'most free' society we must use this method to determine whether or not a law would serve to restrict the freedom of the 'honest life' or whether it would grant more freedom to the 'honest life'.

To me it appears that the average modern 'Leftist liberal' has simply been led astray by the manipulation of the term 'freedom' to justify whatever the user of the term desires. I would imagine that despite their mass number in our age, few genuinely want to deny the opportunity of an 'honest life' to anyone; and instead have simply been tricked by the abstract nature of the term 'freedom' and subsequently believed they were trying to uphold a free, fair and honest life for all. However I feel it would be wrong to simply discount the Leftist on this ground, for even if my assertion is true; that does not necessarily mean that what they desire is 'bad' or 'wrong', it simply no longer has anything to do with the unfortunately imprecise term of 'freedom'; and so our conversation now evolves from a simple 'what is freedom' and 'how can we attain the most freedom', to 'does freedom even matter?'

Now that is a question that only you can answer; but let us not pretend any more that the 'modern liberal' Leftist is concerned with 'freedom', or that they want to be rid of 'oppression'. A larger state is more oppression; and whilst it is true that some people may live a better life under the all encompassing guidance of another; we must remember that this is nonetheless 'tyranny'. The Western world has traditionally desired as small a state as possible, a largely 'right-wing' construct which allows for the 'left-wing' authoritarianism to only intervene when the ability to lead an 'honest life' is infringed upon. It is my view that this is the ideal upon which all laws should be based, and when they do not adhere to this they should be pointed out as tyranny; and if to deny a person this ability to live an honest life thus is restricted, then it is my belief that the collective should use violence to protect the right to an honest life; for was that not the purpose of having law in the first place?

This is where I'm getting some disconnect.
This seems… overtly utopian in scope.

This 'honest living' seems contextually infeasible in the present context, and perhaps in all contexts; including, for example, in the evolutionary context.

I would request further elucidation in this vein.


And what of duty?

To self, to family, to kin and kind, to nation and race, to species, to gene-line?

How does this fit into your paradigm?

If the ideal upon which all laws should be based is the inhibition of infringement upon 'honest living' (the capacity of an individual to live and prosper in their lives as should be the case were they left unharrassed and did not seek to harrass others), how does the inherent obligation implied in the concept of duty interract with this perspective?

Left and Right is usually place on a four tile grid for economic and social freedom.

seems like you finally figured out that will trumps all and force is what matters.

Duty in an abstract sense cannot be legislated for. You cannot tell people they must obey their family at all times regardless of what they ask, for that could go against other laws. I do believe duty should be encouraged, but to legislate for it is going a step too far (just imagine all the 'inspectors' you would have nagging you all the time trying to make sure that you had been 'dutiful' that day).

But if law is based on 'honest living', then harassment to one's self or family, or nation, requires lawful intervention. As such stuff like conscription could be permissible in a situation of defense.

Do note that this is not to say that duty should not exist. It is simply that it should only be enshrined in law; as in, you do this or the collective of society will use violence to punish you; if it directly affects how much one can be harassed whilst trying to live out an 'honest life'. Having no laws does not mean that we do not have other morals; for instance one might choose to be a vegetarian, or feel an obligation to raise orphans or feed the homeless, but such things should not be 'forced' upon other people as at that stage it becomes tyranny.


I do not believe so. It would stop usury, it would stop slavery, it would stop big banks or opposition companies from shutting you down, it would allow you live how you desired so long as you did not hurt anyone else. I would argue that the vast majority of us and our ancestors lived in this way, and that the law never stopped them from living and working. The state would stay out of your life entirely unless you infringed upon someone else's freedom physically (as in violence, theft, squatting, etc).

I think that most of our laws concerning 'freedom' originally were created to facilitate this 'honest living', and that historically no one saw the necessity of spelling out exactly what it was, as it was so obvious to most. The other kinds of laws were not based upon achieving 'freedom' but in doing the will of whatever dictator was in power. You can argue that the desires of the dictator might have been in the best interests of the people; but just because it is not a 'law' does not mean that it still cannot happen. Military training is in my opinion a very important thing, and I would advise most young people to spend some time doing it; however forcing people to do it is crossing a boundary. You might justify military service as it appeals to you, but what if someone else thought it was important that everyone be trained in regards to how to converse with others; in what is okay to say and what is not? What about being trained in how to think? What about being told that if they do not believe X/Y/Z, they are a 'racist/sexist/hate-mongerer/bigot' and should be punished by law for not attending this 'beneficial' training?

Make the state as small possible whilst retaining the rights of the masses to an honest life.

Your central premise is false.

Right wing does not mean or imply freedom. There has recently, in the U.S., been a movement within the right wing for smaller federal government. This is not the same thing as freedom at all.

Right wing generally means people who want society to enforce strong moral rules. Right wing people in the U.S. want abortion to be illegal, and prostitution to be illegal, and drug use to be illegal, and gay marriage to be illegal, and perhaps homosexuality in general to be illegal.

What you are speaking of when you talk about "right" are libertarians, who are outside the right/left continuum entirely.

when its all those things thats not right wing thats just a christian fundamentalist in todays terminology
possessing one or two of those that wish to be illegal is enough these days to get deemed right wing

It is not that freedom is bad - but only whites think its rad. I do not embrace the NAP.

Sounds like american revisionism to me.
The left-right dichotomy is a left over from the french revolution and various ideologies claiming to be deceandants of this starting point of modern politics.

(yea wikicuckery but im lazy)

So liberal-nationalists were left wingers. They were populists, American libertarianism is a left-wing ideology by nature and origin as is progressivism. The reason why people tend to confuse right-wing with free market ideas is because during the industrialization it was aristocrats and educated people - the rich upper class - who voiced support for the old order of things and for traditions. The same people tho who also voiced support for more economic freedom which is just in their self interest as land owners, factory owners and merchants. The progressives of the later stages of industrialization now lumped them all together into the "right". Over time, as people gave up the reactionary cause to return back to old values, the only cause left was economic freedoms and so reactionaries turned into conservatives. Conserving nothing more but free market ideas while capitulating on most issues to the left over time. Up untill the rise of the conservative revolutionairy movement right-wing meant being concerned with finance of the state. Just like republicans today.

(Julius Evola - Men amongst the Ruins, Chapter 1: Revolution - Counterrevolution - Tradition)

read Theory of Justice and stop yapping.

Oh burgers…

Nope.


Nope. Leftists don't even believe in the laws of nature.

Freedom is bullshit, left-right doesn't hinge on "freedom". Grow the fuck up.

Libertarians are leftists.

Bump

/thread

armchair political philosophy suits well OP, and I've done my fair share, but do your research (i.e.: lurk the fuck moar) before you pull the trigger.

on that note, let's start a screencap thread

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That 'case for monarchy' is fucking retarded.

Your local grocery store has an incentive to provide good service because they'll go out of business if they can't compete. A monarch has no incentive to serve anyone's interest but his own because his position is guaranteed for life.

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In which case the greed either spreads like a cancer across the ruling class, or he's swiftly undone. Compare career politicans, the democratic exemplars that they are, who practically guarantee the former case regardless.

Personally, my view is that a hierarchical power structure evolves no matter how it's framed, and that it's more prudent to make it plain.

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Reminder that even uber liberal Frenchmen in 1789 knew that right wing was RIGHT and that left wing was autistic.

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I think you misunderstand left and right. Left is indulgence, moral dissolution, selfishness and an attitude of being owed. Right is the side of justice and punishment, of duty and honour and of service to justice and proper authority.

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side note: never trust the mods

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and now caps from ye olde chan

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I think a lot of people have their own perception of what 'right' and 'left' is, though its often just that; their own perception.

I feel that almost everything that the 'left' stands for can be reduced to 'let the state do it' whilst the right would say 'let us do it' or 'do not let the state intervene'. Sometimes there seem to be overlaps, but then very few people are actually 'hard-right' or 'hard-left'; more often having a somewhat 'central' position that requires the state to enforce their own biases whilst keeping out of those things they deem most important (the left would want the state to enforce acceptance of their desires, whilst the right largely wants to just be left alone).

The idea that nationalism or harsh punishments for crimes is uniquely right-wing is absurd when one considers the nature of the Soviets or even the Nazis. When you look at 'left wing' ideas like 'welfare, gun control, alimony for divorce' it all comes down to the state enforcing their will.

Conversely right-wing ideas like free speech, no gun laws, etc; all hinge on the state not doing anything and allowing the individual to deal with life as they see fit.

Regardless, what I wrote was honestly less directed at you (as Holla Forums) and more as an 'eye opener' for a leftist 'liberal' who thought they were supporting 'freedom'.


I love the screencaps, and it is always pleasing to see you post some that I wrote (and somewhat amusing seeing as you're doing that to disagree with me).

I'm happy for the thread to become a 'screen cap' thread though as those are probably the most important threads we ever have on Holla Forums. Have a great Sunday and God bless you all.

That's all folks. Do yourself a favour and read through these, and do us all a favour and share yours. Remember Holla Forums, the truth will set you free.

Cheers. As a technicality, we're better off not arguing over which definition of political wings is correct, and just say that yours is a spectrum of legal leeway granted to the individual and mine is a spectrum of hierarchy versus anarchy. but I still reckon mine's right


Fitting.

Truth is such a beautiful thing, guess it is why they don't want us to see it.

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This is false - it has been done numerous times. Take 1920s and 30s Germany with its Sweden-tier degeneracy, and what was made of it…

I believe that the lesson learned from it is to know that social issues, biological issues, and economic issues come hand in hand. Consider what Kaczynski wrote about technological abstraction and the erasure of fulfilment. Without the permanence of supporting philosophical and economic structures, i.e.: recognising an intelligible universe and ensuring the longevity of a stable and prosperous economy, society is necessarily impermanent.

There are also spiritual issues. Both Romania/Transylvania and modern west were ruled over by )((merchants))( until there was a highly spiritual leader to guide them out.

Has a republic ever done anything like it? I'm not familiar with the founding fathers of USA.

I meant Weimar. I hope modern west will fit the picture as well.

Left is "equality"
Right is "hierarchy"

The left is a relatively recent political phenomenon that exists at temporary stages of civilization. The term itself originates from the French Revolution and essentially represents the society breaking away from Monarch and Traditional dominion. What was replaced was democratic institutions (which is a leftist political institution), so we really have been 'leftist' nations since that point all up until now.

The pull towards absolute leftism starts with "liberation"/liberalism; the idea of freeing the people from the immediate oppressive societal structures that keep them at the bottom of the pole (overthrowing the Monarch, replacing everything with democracy, making everyone "equal under the law"). This is where you get the idea of Freedom yet its only a tool for the leftist to push society towards greater ends.

Once society is set towards the leftist trajectory and leftism becomes the dominate system (thanks to liberalism), then the next stage is Progressivism. This is where we get the more insidious leftist ideas like Marxism (economically and culturally), feminism, anti-white-ism, and social justice. This is where they replace the void of rule and law (previous maintained by the monarch/traditional society) with their own rule of law, which becomes as invasive and authoritarian (really even more so) than the systems they had fought against in the Liberalism stage. The ultimate goal is to achieve societal "equality" which really is a society run but the slaves and plebs. And we know already that equality is a nonsense idea, physically impossible to achieve, and that having the dumb masses run everything leads to weakness and ruin.


On the flip side, the Right was what used to be the default position in society, with Monarch rule being the culmination of Europe's societal ascent since the fall of the Roman Empire. It what was naturally assumed to be the right way because only they (monarchs and rulers) had the will to create order out of the disconnected swaths of humanity that was before them. They formed nations and societies for their people to live, maintain relative security (as compared to before), and grow as people by real means. People who strive to maintain the order and traditions that the Monarchs ruled under are called Traditionalists or what we really can call them are Conservatives. The Conservative position is only effective when the society is on the right like in Monarchy.

It was only with the periods of the highest amount of wealth and prosperity did the idea of leftism start to appear; a result of the delusion idealists who didn't understand the world before their comfortable, stable lives and the hard work done and moral rule enforced to get them there. As they roused the people to overthrow the foundation that gave them lives better than ever before, and changed society towards a leftist democratic system, the Traditionalists became the Reactionaries, and the conservatives adapted to be nothing more than moderate leftists, tethered by that leftist trajectory towards Progressivism. Without being a right wing style political system, conservatism is nothing more than fighting over ground that they are slowly losing every day, as democracy pulls people more and more left. In the way that liberalism is the first stage in leftism, Reactionary is the first stage for the Right, as it is the equal opposite force; trying to pull society back the other way towards a right traditionalist system. Only when we restore society from the leftist cancer, can Conservatism be valid again, in maintaining societal traditions, and when citizens can exercise their freedom and their duty. The only other way is to wait for our nations to fall again, and rebuild from the ashes again.

So your idea of "freedom" is nothing more than a tool leftists use to deconstruct society and everything your ancestors fought so hard to build up. While there is very valid points about what people should be free from in a society, the idea as be exploited by the left for more specific ideological purposes. The solution stems from order; having society run by those with the right to rule.

I don't know, although I'd say your spirituality vaguely aligns with my philosophy.

I think this sums it up quite well.

This is absolutely false.

Got a larger version of that last one?

/thread

Absolute bullshit. The Right was first used in the French assembly to denote supporters of the Crown. Right = monarchist

The Left were supporters of parliament and the far left in support of revolutionary government. Left = Liberalism

Similarly in Prussia. Right Hegelians supported the Christian autocratic state while the Left Hegelians were revolutionary republicans/liberals

That's the original meaning. Whether it still works today is another question

No, embarrassingly.

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