Decentralized Organization

Infiltration is an inappropriate word to use here. Makes it sound like the government would be after us trying to keep us from meeting people. Also, it would only be one person, so no "filling with inadequate people." Growing would be completely up to you to decide.

Fucking nobody uses meadhall. At least before you could organize somewhat through email. Now we've fallen back to Tox, and nobody ever answer my invites.

I don't think the original plan of "super sekrit meetup board" has worked very well. It's too secret and nobody visits it, and if we have to constantly spam the link then that defeats the whole purpose of making it secret. Might as well just organize here on Holla Forums.

I highly doubt any organization is going to try to infiltrate groups of two or three people as I said in in reply to another poster. Are these fears rational and justified, or simple paranoia?

This would have been the point of the organization discussed in the previous thread, but not this. Why?

The sole idea here is to build trusted relationships. This would take a lot of time, of course. So I'm not talking about "some shedding of anonymity," but building regular friendships.

True. Again, repeating myself here, but it must be kept in mind that the idea here is to meet and spend time with just one or two people doing regular stuff. So, if and when the time comes for actual action, you have someone you can trust.

I like the idea suggested by

it was never meant to be sekrit. I was more to have a permanent thread where your contact email could be found by others in your area.

threads on /pol disappear relatively quickly while /meadhall/ threads persist much longer.

It is a utility board not a sekrit club.

Ill also note that you do not need to find other /polacks to begin your subversion campaign.

Find already established book clubs, or Gym groups and attempt to coopt them. Capable /polacks should be familiar enough with subversion techniques to make a good go at taking over a group.

The point of /meadhall is to add the possibility of finding other /polacks to help you begin your campaign. It is undeniably easier to begin with more bodies at your side.

the point is that we will be actively recruiting. once recruitment is established the likely hood of infiltration rises drastically.

I dont understand the question. I was not in the previous thread though I read it. Intel Gathering and Recruitment is always the first step in political organization.

this is a side objective. The true goal of meeting and organizing is to subvert the system and gain political momentum to enact change.

I regret using the word "organization" now. Creating actual political organization may come much, much further down the line. You first need people (just one or two) whom you can completely rely on.

I don't really think infiltration is a real problem, unless you get something like 10 people and start working on serious projects. But theoretically I suppose it's possible.

Besides, we have to address this possibility, otherwise we look untrustworthy.

We need to come up with a system for people to communicate with each other. It can be IRC channels (what server?), an active Tox group chat, emails (what provider?) or something like that. It needs to be phone-compatible so that people can communicate while on the way to the meet.

Once we decide on a system, we can make it into a nice PNG guide, and post it in our meetup cyclicals. People can exchange contact info (for reminders/directions) with others in their area and work out a suitable time/place in the thread. The discussions about who will meet where will keep the thread bumped.

If out of our 2500 IPs, 4% are interested, that's still 100 people. Once a few meets happen successfully and are posted in the cyclical, more may warm up to the idea.

And that is the only purpose of this thread. To discuss the idea where we can meet just one or two of fellow posters here, and spend a lot of time with them doing regular stuff.

IRCs, Tox, threads here, or any group chat are an unsuitable format to implement communication. The first requirement here is to find someone from your town, and the group chats would contain too much noise from people everywhere. What I imagined was a list of countries followed by a list of cities where one can post their own email or whatever, and if anyone was interested in contacting them, they would. After the poster feels like the communication is going well, they can remove the note with their contact info.

my experience so far with meet ups is that there are already many established right wing groups in many cities. meeting one or two connected individuals will put you in contact with others.

If you are in a rural situation you will probably only meet one or two individuals but you can still start recruitment efforts.

If your sole purpose is to find some 'good buddies' to stall your loneliness then you are wasting your potential and have much to improve on yourself.

Meeting fellow local political dissidents must have purpose. If you just want friends to self improve with go join a local sports team.

We should keep as much of our discussion, even region specific discussion, in the cyclical thread. That way the activity is clearly visible for polacks who take the "I'm in but only if other people are in" stance.

In theory, if everyone tried to organize their group in the same thread, it would be chaos. But right now, we will have only a handful of people even trying, so it will be fine.

We should wait to actually experience the problem of too much noise, before we start implementing solutions to it.

As much activity as possible should be kept on Holla Forums and not outsourced to other media, otherwise we run into the same problems meadhall did: Namely, out of sight, out of mind.

Yes, that seems like a good idea. We tried something similar for Texas in Meadhall.

The problem is that let's face it, nobody will put their real email in these things. They will make a throwaway, put it on, check it 5 times the first day, 3 times the rest of the week, once the second week, then forget the password and never touch it again. Then you have a list full of dead emails, and 9 people out of 10 you try to contact never respond, so the whole things seems pointless and enthusiasm dies.

This is how many, many imageboard organization attempts have failed.

Yes, we should make such a list. But we also need to make sure that when you contact someone on it, they will respond. Otherwise they shouldn't be on the list at all.

Don't you think trust would be a big issue in this picture? It was brought up by many posters in the old thread, and 10 out of 20 replies in this thread include the words "infiltration" and "subversion."

Now if you do see that trust is a big deal in political dissidence, how do you propose we build it? I think it can only develop naturally, which is why all my posts sound like I'm trying to

Not the case, though. Just trying to bring about some tangible difference here, starting small.

Trust will always be an issue. I will never fully trust those I work with. What I will do with work with them to achieve mutual goals. As long as the actions of my compatriots consistently works towards those goals I will continue to work with them. If they work to Hinder or subvert our goals, I will work against them.

With those I work with closely and develop mutual understanding with I may call friends. But that friendship will always be conditional.

The point of this is not to develop blind trusting relationships, but to create a network that can be relied upon to achieve specific political goals.

I agree that it must start small, but I will not limit the scope of my ambition for anyone.

Very good points. A cyclical thread does seem like a good option starting out.

Makes sense, too. Meadhall does focus on actively recruiting political groups, but it seems that it has not gained much traction.

If the idea is not the problem, then can the implementation be improved to allow better visibility? Cyclical threads, then?

Do these even work as expected? I remember them being bugged as fuck.

Just keep remaking a meetups general thread then. Make sure you have a short, memorable name that you put in the subject so I can search the catalog for it.

Don't know how they work, but Meadhall is definitely not visible. Even after lurking for a year, I hadn't come across it once.

Lurk moar newfag.

OP, our autonomy helps us, but also hurts us

its time for some to take this mission out of the basement.

Well, Holla Forums?

See:

First time around our attempts to unite ended with Occupy, which was… shit.

What will happen this time around?

pick one.

This is not a call to rally and scream and cry about the big meanies who rule our lives in a vain childlike hope that our temper tantrum will sway the halls of power. Those are the tactics that have been bequeathed to the left to placate them.

We are not the left.

This is a call to form a functional organized community within the existing society that will subvert and eventually replace it. We do not beg for others to change things in our favor, we make the changes ourselves and lead others to follow.

We will build leaders of men out of lost boys. We will seep into every crack and pore of this dying society and replace its corroded parts with our own.

This is not a call to destroy the old world.

It is a call to build a better one.

No, Anonymous as a whole was most definitely our movement - our attempt at first. It was the first of its kind to actually unite us into one movement.

And then it failed. It got co-opted. It got controlled by the government and crashed and burned with Occupy.

I agree with forming an organized, functional community. That's what I was implying. Take a look at the card pictures I posted.

The first time around - They're young, they're dumb, they don't know what they're doing. But they know they want to do something.

The second time around - They're older, they've been succesful, they have jobs and lives and the ability to make a change in the world now - and now they're going to do it.

That's what I mean.

This is a call to destroy the jewish world. To take down what they have created from within, and reform it into our own, better world. Our world that we were destined to create. We will get into the highest places of society and destroy it from the inside out, morphing it into the aryan wonderland it can be.

Kek vult.

the 'anonymous movement' was abandoned by us far before Occupy. It was never explicitly a ring wing or nationalist movement nor was its inspiration.

It was a mask to hide behind with many others hiding with us who were and are clearly against us.

anonymity is our tool here but we are far from it's sole users.

>This is a call to destroy the jewish world. To take down what they have created from within, and reform it into our own, better world. Our world that we were destined to create. We will get into the highest places of society and destroy it from the inside out, morphing it into the aryan wonderland it can be.

well said.

Bump.

Swiss Holla Forumsack here, anyone up for a beer?

There are dedicated government and Tavistock programs, to D&C and prevent any cohesive social movement or group capable of action from forming.

This is what the oligarchy fears.

No grass roots movements are to be allowed, that they do no control.

They need to keep the groups fragmented and non-cohesive. Ineffective. Fighting amongst themselves.

The oligarchy must remain organized and focused, while keeping the masses disorganized and distracted.

You need to design a new software or communication platform that is shill resistant. You need to write down and study all forms of shilling and educate all users on their techniques.

The techniques need to be identified, studied and the users responsible, banned or controlled. However, this creates a centralized leadership group, that can be infiltrated and used to steer or destroy the community itself.

So you eventually need a decentralized banning, or decentralized anti-shilling. You need a new form of organization, communication and community that is shill resistant.

You need to actively monitor the group process and filter out shilling, dilution and misdirection/distraction. You are under active attack.

The government tracks and is very concerned about any group of three or more people who meet.

They are installing microphones in all of the street lamps and on buses, to monitor and detect conversations. Audio monitors in your car through OnStar and in your living room through your television, which records and uploads the audio, supposedly for "text to speech" for audio commands.

The US govt and govts across NATO are building domestic torture centers and performing Operation Gladio style terrorist attacks on their own populations. They are getting ready for riots and flash mobs, numbering in the millions.

They will begin to terrorize, disappear political dissents soon. To keep people silent, through terror.

All movement is tracked and they want a surveillance grid of cameras and license plate readers across the country, uploading to a central location. So all meetings and movement of people can be tracked.

The new cell phone laws, require that each cell phone can be tracked in X,Y and Z down to one meter. So that they can track people down to individual rooms and data mine when people are in the same building or apartment or room, for meetings.

The government and oligarchs are preparing to bring in a global police state.

They expect to have to kill at least 30 million people in the US alone, in a Mao "cultural revolution" style cleansing if necessary.

There are multiple elite factions and they are infighting. They are fighting for power and control of government among themselves, while trying to crush any grass roots movements they do not control.

The Jew/Zionist/Neocon faction is not actually your primary enemy. The Rockefeller globalist faction, the Winsors and the Zionist faction are increasingly fractured and Holla Forums is actually mostly fighting against policies pushed by the Rockefeller globalist faction.

The different factions have different ideologies about how to control the masses. The zionist faction believes that traditional religion and family and Christianity, is the most effective method of social control. While the Rockefeller globalist faction, wants to drug everyone up, inject them with mercury, chemically lobotomize them, censor the internet, bring in a global police state and transnational genocide and "cultural revolution" to cleanse the population of anyone who opposes totalitarian government. They plan to flood the US rural areas with heavily armed latino drug gangs (arming them and selling them the weapons), to drive the population into tightly controlled UN Agenda 21 "human habitation zones" under the UN "Safe Cities Program".

Get organized or die.

The most important thing is
- clean food (green houses)
- clean water
- clean air
- industrial capacity (smelters and CNC machines)
- defense

They are poisoning your food. They are releasing drugs into the food and water. Dumping rat poison into the water (sodium fluoride). Now they are attacking peoples testicles with dsRNA. Barium and aluminum in the air. Cadmium in the organic food. It would take a book, just to summarize the poisons they are dumping on the population.

If you dig, you will find the government is lying about the death and mortality rates. They are doing a culling.

Stop focusing on the jews (which is distraction and something you cannot do anything about) and focus on improving yourselves and creating a vision for a better world. Create the system that you live under, instead of accepting the system that has been given to you.

Create a new vision for the future, an alternative. That is what the oligarchy fears the most.

youtube.com/watch?v=mngs3d28Y_Q

Also,

Trump does not matter. You dont control Trump. This is factional infighting between two groups for control of the government and who will rule over the human cattle.

You have to make individual and collective changes to your behavior, at the local level to make change. Think global, act local.

You cannot rely upon messiah figures to change the system you are living in. The purpose of the messiah, it to delay action. It is to stop the herd from taking action and changing the system, it is to keep the system and herd under the control of the elite.

It is called "forced choice". They will provide the system and you will make two irrelevant choices that have been given to you. They will frame the decision and which choice you choose, will not matter.

You have to change the system. You need to create the preconditions needed for change. You need to take back control of your food, water, land, money, manufacturing, energy and communication.

The oligarchs do not want independence. They want a docile, dumbed down, easy to control population of slaves that are physically and psychologically dependent upon them for survival.

If you do not do that, you are just a slave.

"leaderless resistance" was a meme created by Tavistock, to ensure that resistance movements remain ineffective.

The elite are obsessed with "hierarchy attenuation", because hierarchies are what allow social groups to coordinate, amass and deploy resources.

Anyone pushing "leaderless resistance" is a shill.

You need to get a hierarchy, build an organization, set goals, acquire resources and capacities and deploy those capacities towards achieving objectives. You need to be coordinated, determined and organized.

D&C is about preventing hierarchies from forming and to fracture hierarchies into smaller, hierarchies that are fighting with each other instead of fighting to accomplish goals int he external world.

This reminds of the chemtrail deal, dumping aluminum in the air to fuck with crops and health quality.To get us sick, but keep the productivity while suing medicine to slave us
Plus how cultists run the industry and politics world wide. But i think that this factions are mere bricks in the same pyramid, shacking to to take each other place
Trump might get .338 Lapua in between his eyes, if he keeps up with his aggressive views against the american globalist slavery.

Dont forget the endemic centrism or relativism that got pushed for generations, fucking with the creation of groups and taking a position towards a issue.

good posts

agreed. however in my experience the attempt to form a group hierarchy in a pseudonym based, international forum is incredibly easy to destabilize.

The only way to form a functional organizational hierarchy is by proximity. Localized hierarchy with physical interactions.

This is why I suggest forming local communities with /pol goals.

each leader would be acting independently of the others but working towards similar goals.

The biggest problem with Holla Forums is that it is focused with "fighting the jews", instead of articulating a positive vision for the future. OK you killed all the jews, now what?

It is absolutely counter productive and useless to attack another group, instead of trying to collectively improve your lives.

The government is poisoning you and you are attacking the jews.

Individual jews and whores on television supporting degeneracy and transexualism, should be attacked. This is what the left does, they single out and attack people. In order to enforce their morality on others. The left does not attack whole groups.

You have to attack degeneracy itself and degeneracy as behavior (enforce morality), not particular groups (the jews).

Then you have to explain to people, how they are going to get more free shit and a better life by following you. You have to explain to them, why the world is shit and what you are going to change and then what they need to do to make it happen.

Directing Holla Forums at attacking the jews and scapegoating the jews for every problem in the world is D&C and alienation. It is the same as the SJWs attacking every CIS WHITE MALE, for their WHITE PRIVILEGE. Holla Forums is locked into a tavistock controlled opposition matrix.

If Holla Forums escapes the controlled opposition matrix, then the real shilling begins. They will hit your website with 10 GB/s DDoS attacks and spamming like you have never seen before. They will come after you and identify the leadership and start doing transnational SWAT team raids, like they did against wikileaks and 4chan.

You are in a fucking war and are just fapping around. Which is why you are still in containment.

Positive vision and working towards it is my primary goal for this operation.

These meeting groups and the hopeful evolution would not be an offensive arm to attack targets but instead a constructive group to build a foundation that can be relied upon to replace the system when it fails.

If you want to do real damage.

1> Assign each pol user a public key
2> Have users upvote/downvote users (with votes being public). Each user has a list of up votes/down votes. Make sure it is public so it can be datamined
3> Use this to form a hierarchy of the users and filter out the shit posts by default (the D&C will get downvoted or removed).

You need to figure out how to make the platform shill resistant.

If Trump gets killed, Vlad then has all the legal and moral justification to EMP the US and Israel and sack them both, and then probably Europe after, or the cucks will just grovel before him. Either way.

u wot

There is no such thing as decentralized organization. There is ideological leadership, but what OP means does not exist.

The best second to 'decentralized organization' is a deep cover cell structure where the chain of command is highly insular and mediated by tech.

OP, are you still here?

Excuse me for tooting my own horn, but I think the "cyclical/general thread" is the best idea. We just need to pick a catchy name, a relevant pic, and make the thread then keep it bumped so it doesn't purged.

Do you want to do the honors, or should I?

I wish we could talk

Guess I might post some ideas I've had myself. Basically, we can think of sites like reddit and imageboards as lying on a spectrum:

On one end you have reddit (which is really just slashdot with user created categories), where:

And then you have classic imageboards:

8/pol/ is of course a step away from that, since we do have post histories and handles within threads. Traditional forums also fall to the middle - they have accounts and the accounts are visible, but there is no voting (I've seen forums with like/dislike systems but never one that was actually used much - mostly because they don't sort/hide by comment score, it has little effect). Traditionally post histories are not public and users don't have scores, although modern forum software has feature creeped to allow exceptions to these.

The argument in favor of the reddit end of the spectrum is:

The argument against it is:

There is also the fact that ultimately, people trump system. A good userbase on a shitty system will still have good discussions (if Holla Forums made its own reddit style site, I don't think it would be as cancerous as reddit for instance) and even the best system won't make retards have good ideas.

(cont'd)
Now, it's common to say on chans (probably out of pride) that everything is fine, and the two points I raise in favor of reddit etc. don't matter. But clearly they do. Who wouldn't want fewer shills, faggots and spam on their imageboard? I'm not even talking about b8 that is deliberately contrarian and only tries to stir shit up (like threads saying "Holla Forums here, why should I care about a dead ideology") because even though shitty, these encourage discussion and perfection of arguments. I mean things like blatant shilling, botting, cp dumping and other abuse where no discussion is being generated, the whole community is just being disrupted.

In theory it's possible to get the best of both worlds. You can have a site where there are usernames, but these are not visible to users, and comments are displayed without the author. The server does privately store the username that wrote it, much like how currently 8ch stores a hash of the IP that submitted a post.

Users can then upvote, downvote, or hide posts. This is also recorded by the server, but not shown to other users. However, users can then auto-hide of comments which received a large number of downvotes/were hidden by many other users, and they can ask the server to auto hide comments from users if they have downvoted/hidden that user's comments a lot before.

Everybody gets to decide what they want to filter (similar to the current filter system) so there is no issue of mods deciding for you who gets to be visible and who doesn't. The scores themselves are not visible, so there is no problem of users treating high-score comments and commenters like royalty. Users don't get to see usernames, so forming cliques is much harder (except for people who voluntarily self-identify like tripfags/avatarfags/signatures which are all rightly reviled on sight here anyhow). People can't see the up/down votes or hides on their own comments so there is no extra incentive to conform.

Meanwhile it is much easier for users to easily get rid of junk posts that are not worth their time. If they feel like they're missing something they can always un-hide them. But if they want to take 5 minutes to only read the parts of a thread most interesting to them, now they can do it without scrolling and skimming endless shitposts. Mods have a much easier time getting rid of shills: If they post under throwaways or without an account, many users might filter by default, and if the do use a consistent account, they are much easier to contain.

There are two criticisms one can make of this:
1. A determined person can still figure out who posted what through trial and error, by hiding/unhiding users/posts in a systematic fashion. Although I choose to believe that the same is possible also on 8ch: There are several ways available to very determined adversaries with which they can easily figure out who is a given user, and what posts they made. Even in the system I describe, actually doing it is tedious, so most people wouldn't bother in most cases: Meaning that socially the userbase will behave as if the medium is anonymous (even though that anonymity can be stripped through an involved process). So there is no reason for the social consequences (a big argument against the reddit end of the spectrum), such as circlejerks, self-censoring and groupthink to be any worse than here now.

It does create a new vector of attack for someone who wants to deanonymize the userbase, which is a real concern. However, ultimately there are already so many such vectors for even the purest imageboards, that I don't know if it makes a difference.

2. Having an account and post history, even if stored only on the server, creates the risk that the government or others can easily obtain this history to use as a detailed profile of you.

Again my response is similar to 1: It is a valid concern, but the danger is present in the current system also. For instance 4ch was notoriously known to archive post histories and ship them off to the FBI. Rumor has it that the current owners of 8ch are planning to monetize through some imageboard dataminer ad company. So again, I'm not sure if it will make a difference.

any type of upvote/downvote system, visible or no is vulnerable to the "brigading" tactics to censor users or information from the general userbase.

how would your system deal with this phenomenon?

gb2reddit faggot

Good point, it's not immune to brigading, and in theory I think imageboards are (the worst you can do is manufacture consensus with many shills and mass-report, but neither of those are really the same).

If many of these things were not visible, however, brigading would be much harder for the brigaders. They would be voting blind without visible scores. They would have little means of knowing when they've succeeded or not. A lot of it would be done on faith that maybe it will work, and maybe a few anons will complain about posts being incorrectly auto-hidden. This is such a stretch that many of the dumber brigaders would get bored and lose motivation.

Ideally you could have a hidden web of trust: Based on what comments you up/down vote (or filter/unhide), the server tries to figure out which other users are the best predictors of what you will want hidden by default. Then it uses this when serving you replies. If you don't trust the server you can still unhide the hidden replies to check. All this data is of course stored on the server and not made public.

This is pretty much how we triage things IRL. Eg. your friend John says book X is great, and he has really good taste so you read it. But your other friend Ian says this game Y is awesome, and you know Ian is a faggot about games, so you safely ignore his recommendation. In this case the server is doing it for you, without telling you who is John or who is Ian or which one said what.

This would be mostly immune to brigading. They would have to overwhelm the system to such a degree that they would probably have to be the majority among the users. However, this also means that now the server builds a detailed profile on all users, which is kinda creepy (although I'm not sure if it's anything that can't be done already anyway). It would be great if you could make it decentralized and user-side, but I think it is necessary to have an all-knowing server that is trusted with confidential identity information.

And yes, obviously the privacy risks are greater with this than an ordinary imageboard.

Unorganized brigades would be difficult but organized brigades with a few hundred of dummy accounts would be easy and also undetectable by the regular community.

It is an interesting Idea be relies too much on the majority of users having honest intent.

assuming the best out of people is a sure fire way of being let down and if you create a system reliant on the majority of people being 'good' you end up with a failure at best, and a weapon used against you at worst.

I cant say that I would be interested in using a forum designed in the way you have described.

But I think very obvious to the admin and mods. Unless the mods are too retarded to keep an eye out for such behavior, you would need accounts that behave like normal users, instead of just having 0 posts and doing nothing but constantly downvoting stuff on a board.

Well, in a sense, you always rely on that. For example with the current Holla Forums, I can just get a few of my IRC buddies together and endlessly shill or shitpost, slide threads down the catalog, and make the board so useless to legitimate users that most of them stop bothering to come to it anymore. This has pretty much happened many times both on 4ch and here.

To be honest, I wouldn't migrate from here to something like that myself. But there might be some niche for it, who knows.

Honestly I've always wondered why reddit is such a cesspit. Is it because of the system, or the users? Once voat grows a bit I guess we'll see if the users are the problem after all. This would be a way to test the "system" side.