From $4.5 Billion To Nothing: Forbes Revises Estimated Net Worth Of Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes

From $4.5 Billion To Nothing: Forbes Revises Estimated Net Worth Of Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes

Last year, Elizabeth Holmes topped the FORBES list of America’s Richest Self-Made Women with a net worth of $4.5 billion. Today, FORBES is lowering our estimate of her net worth to nothing. Theranos had no comment.

Our estimate of Holmes’ wealth is based entirely on her 50% stake in Theranos, the blood-testing company she founded in 2003 with plans of revolutionizing the diagnostic test market. Theranos shares are not traded on any stock market; private investors purchased stakes in 2014 at a price that implied a $9 billion valuation for the company.

Since then, Theranos has been hit with allegations that its tests are inaccurate and is being investigated by an alphabet soup of federal agencies. That, plus new information indicating Theranos’ annual revenues are less than $100 million, has led FORBES to come up with a new, lower estimate of Theranos’ value.

FORBES spoke to a dozen venture capitalists, analysts and industry experts and concluded that a more realistic value for Theranos is $800 million, rather than $9 billion. That gives the company credit for its intellectual property and the $724 million that it has raised, according to VC Experts, a venture capital research firm. It also represents a generous multiple of the company's sales, which FORBES learned about from a person familiar with Theranos’ finances.

At such a low valuation, Holmes’ stake is essentially worth nothing. Theranos investors own preferred shares, which means they get paid back before Holmes, who owns common stock. According to VC Experts, investors in Theranos own a particular kind of preferred equity, called participating preferred shares, which take precedence to common stock in the event of a liquidation. FORBES is not aware of any plans to liquidate. If that were to happen, participating preferred investors would get their money back and more before Holmes gets a cent.

It is possible that at some point, Holmes may be able to raise money at a higher valuation than $800 million from her existing investors, but we are not betting on it.

Here are three reasons FORBES lowered our estimated value of the blood testing company:

Too much is unknown. Everything but the $9 billion valuation is secret. Theranos said it would replace traditional blood tests, in which a needle is used to extract blood into a vial, with machines that could do dozens of tests on a drop of blood taken from a finger. But it has presented no data proving its systems work.

Theranos has not delivered. Holmes has been promising to publish data for six months, but hadn’t submitted a single paper as of April. She initially presented the Food and Drug Administration’s approval of a single test for herpes virus as proof that her technology worked, and that a startling 120 more approvals would follow. Instead, the FDA introduced restrictions that led Theranos to stop using its finger-stick tests, and no approvals have followed. Theranos has voided thousands of the finger stick tests, according to a May report from The Wall Street Journal.

Theranos’ target market may not exist. Outside experts are skeptical of the idea that Theranos could be worth nearly as much as incumbents like Laboratory Corp. of America (market capitalization: $13 billion) and Quest Diagnostics (market capitalization: $15 billion). Theranos, which charges less per test, would need to dramatically improve margins on its tests (which it has said it can do), as well as get many more people to take its blood tests.

"Trying to displace low-cost lab tests is just such a tough area," says Robert Nelsen of ARCH Ventures, the top-ranked healthcare venture capitalist on the Forbes Midas List. Margins are low, and it is difficult for new technologies to become established. Robert Kocher, a healthcare-focused partner at venture capital firm Venrock, says if Theranos’ technology works, it will find more value selling its machines than trying to recreate LabCorp and Quest’s infrastructure from scratch.

Holmes will be making a presentation on Theranos’ data at the annual meeting of the AACC, formerly the American Academy for Clinical Chemistry, in August. Perhaps that will shed some light on what data Theranos has to support the use of its technology. In the meantime, given the difficulties at Theranos, Holmes falls off the list of America’s Richest Self-Made Women and off all of FORBES’ other wealth lists.

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quora.com/Why-does-Marissa-Mayer-get-so-much-negative-press?ref=newsweek&rel_pos=1
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Wew.

I guess she'll never get that surgery to not sound like man then.

Here's the thing that gets me about this story. She could very well have a viable and working product but trying to make anything in the medical industry cheaper that affects the bottom line will have everyone and their godmother trying to stop you from doing it. The FDA is far from honest and trustworthy. Or she could be full of shit. But the entire thing is kind of weird.

Holy shit.

damm those are some fine crazy eyes.

Is she deaf?

It is the voice from gangland.

What was the product anyway? Haven't really followed the whole thing.

Never heard of this chick before but watching this I'm not sure that's actually a chick….it just can't be…

...

Sounds like a classic scam.

No shit

Was she born with an Adam's apple?

Every time a women is let near a company she crashes it with no survivors, like yahoo

Yup. Jews jewing jews. To derail this thread I'll add the following. It is my hope no Holla Forumsack is required to get "blood tests" or take any medication or see any doctor for that matter.

The medical industry is completely redundant for someone who eats healthy natural foods, exercises, and lives a meaningful life.

t. someone who absolutely fucking hates needles and hasn't been sick for a long time.

is this the autistic yahoo woman? or just some bitch that got divorced.

Maximum damage control engaged: Theranos Fires Back After Forbes Says CEO Elizabeth Holmes Is Worth ‘Nothing’

archive.is/zIfWa

I almost said I would hit that

but her face is too plastic and too crazy

Neither. World's youngest self made billionaire formerly.


Ebay, Meg Whitman. HP, Horseface Fiorina.

That voice is a deal breaker

She seriously sounds like a male going through puberty hard

I liked it better when ceos where unknown and did nothing but fuck hookers and do coke.
Now CEO's talk like a never ending TED talk and cult of personalities.
Thanks steve jobs.

Holy shit, I knew a girl in college who sounded like that

But she only sounded like that after taking hormones to "fuck the gender binary" after which she looked like a 25 year old teenaged boy

Would explain why she always wears turtlenecks.

Is it really so hard to believe that a female college dropout with crazy-eyes singlehandedly revolutionized medicine at the age of 19?

jej

...

1) It's a CIA front company, fam. Everybody in Silicon Valley knows you don't get a board of directors with Henry Kissinger, Leon Panetta, Gen. Mattis, James Baker, Sen. Frist, and other DC heavyweights all on your team without help from the CIA.

Everyone in Palo Alto is like, "where the fuck did this bitch come from?"

archive.is/mmJUm

2) The company was probably a front for some R&D on some other dual use technology shit for the military and intelligence community. Word was, they would be a Google for DNA.

archive.is/7BetV

3) Her parents are plugged into the DC scene and "foreign policy" scene in a hardcore level.

4) I would fuck the shit out of her until she squealed and her voice changed two octaves higher.

5) Those crazy eyes, it means she's a fucking freak in bed. I guarantee she loves to get tied up and get down with some BDSM. Either that, or she would ride your dick until it was raw.

6) She has awesome dick sucking lips. Great for licking excess sperm off your cock.

7) Odds are, she's probably a dike.

She's CIA fam. She's CIA. Move along. Nothing to see here.

wot da zog?

This is what I figured but how did they screw up so badly then? You have bleeding edge military tech the industry is a decade away from that could make blood testing and DNA collecting for later analysis done painlessly and cheap. A young female role model as the head of biotech firm. All the positive press you could throw at it. There was a solid effort to make this work with big names behind it that fell flat on its face.

Maybe they want to wait until DNA analysis can be done in seconds? Right now even a rush job in a state of the art lab takes a minimum of 24 hours. And they're just doing 13 genetic markers, not the entire strand.

I remember reading somewhere that the CIA maintains several front companies which either develop or buy high tech for future use by the agency. Theranos definitely seems to fit the criteria.

It's a scam company, probably built to take advantage of Obamacare spending. Built entirely around image rather than substance.

The female Tesla.

Wtf, she is really weird! Crazy eyes and uncanny voice for a woman. I am legitimately creeped out

With a name like Theranos you could tell me she was a James Bond villain and I would believe you.

The only name more ominous than that shit is Spectre, and just look at all the creepy fucking Spectres we have running around.

no it isn't the health care industry fighting back the technology theranos peddles is fundamentally flawed for it's stated purpose

for a short overview some scientists found a way to make a lab on a chip, using nanopatterning skills from electronics manufacturing they build tiny sensors (more chemical and moleculair then electronic) and build them into tiny canals on a standard chip
this setup can do as it promises take a tiny amount of blood, order of several dozen microliters, much less than a drop and analyses with resonable error bars the amount of certain biological markers in them

if you want more details the breakthrough here was two fold first the used existing biologic molecules commonly antibodies that bind specifical to a certain metabolite, for instance using an anitbody harvested from genetic modified mice, that binds only with a molecule that signals the presence of prostate cancer even if this molecule is present in a complex solution like blood
second breakthrough was incorporating previous mechanism into conventional electronics that you get a readout for any type of computer so data can be handled fast and easy plus doing this in way that allows you to determine the concentration of your sample with reasonable error bars
holmes and theranos were not the first or only to do this type of things many research institutes in the world are/were doing this

but the problem: for your 10 microliters of blood this technique gives a reliable value on concentration of certain metabolites
however this 10 microliters of blood is taken randomly from the body and its local concentration will be very different from the real concentration taken from a more presentable amount of blood
so in short due to pure luck and chaos the tiny amount of blood you take either has nothing in it meaning the medical tests cant detect anything or by pure luck has a local cluster of biomarkers giving a false positive
this problem cannot be solved

the previously mention issue is a very sensitive subject in analytical chemistry and your sampling has to be done very precisely
so the only way to solve it would be to take a sizeable amount of blood like a syringe full of the patient mix it very throroughly and then insert it into theranos machine, however these steps would destroy the advantage it supposedly had

addedum this is assuming the tech worked exactly as theranos said it would, it is also completely likely they simply cannot even build there lab on a chip


given as previously mentioned their board of directors the real intention of theranos is probably a lot more nefarious
as i mentioned the problem of the technique is one of concentration, so you can only use it for something not dependent on concentration
something like DNA testing, objective one under false pretenses aquire huge dna samples from the population for (((research))) purposes
objective two screening of population: imagine a job interview like in the movie gattica, or for certain high end functions you have to descend from the right (((people))) to be even considered
all this can be accomplished with this tech

to end on a good note the current failure of theranos probably indicates the technology fails on an engineering level and is being thrown to the dogs, the 19 year old college dropout was probably from the start a pretty face to distract from the real power behind the scenes

is your period key broken?

>reuters.com/article/us-amd-outlook-idUSKCN0YN36Y

You should look to the Far East where matriarchal societies are more common. AMD was operating at a loss for several years and has recently made some very bold moves back toward the black under Lisa Su as CEO.

Good. I love it when Ted conference tier venture capitalists lose big. Very funny.

East Asians don't have male or female. They are androgynous ant people.

Getting a bunch of venture capital bucks by whoring yourself out and making fraudulent claims isn't "self made."

That's a fucking alien.

I agree Tesla is a scam, but at least they managed to make something that works (all with government technology but whatever).

Thanks for info. Figured as much.

$5 says that if her company actually has anything worthwhile, it infringes on so many other patents that it could never be profitable - which is why she hasn't released anything. She knows that the moment she shows her hand, the jig is up.

That being said, fuck intellectual property laws. All they do is stifle innovation.

If this is true then how did the military and CIA let this happen?

Wait so Henry Kissinger is on the board, they're memeing this hard…can someone connect the Jew dots for me on this one? Is it that they literally need more vials of blood to survive?

Care to enlighten me on tesla?

as far as i know they make awesome cars

I love how they Steve Jobs-ed her out. Can't wait 'till the movie comes out goys

If it was a CIA front, why would the CIA put a bunch of big names on the front and draw attention to it? Why would they allow so much media for a front? A front is more effective if you never heard of it.

More likely this was a shame from the get go and all the big names are just establishment rubes.

So essentially it's the female version of the "Segway" inventor.
Lots of hype for something that either doesn't work or has no real world application.

Money laundering and secret tech production front.
Micro blood testers, for (((officials))) to be able to test some blood out in the field, either to test for ebola or confirm their dna signature on the spot. Or both and more.

Why did they blocked Aussies from viewing? It is strange.

Trying to avoid savage shitposting in the comments.

Um ok….We can't help it.

Thanks for explaining it. Sounds like a shit show.

drugs?

Maybe, I was thinking that she may be on Devil's Breath. It's a drug that allow people to control the victim. It is a common drug in South America and it is used to force people to withdraw all of their money out of ATM.

thanks for the writeup

le sucessful female entrepreneur meme The-Movie.

She is more like a tool to someone. She have crazy eye and is clearly not right in the mind. She have a boyfriend so maybe he is her handler?

Except the Segway actually works.

okie dokie. that's man. talks like man, walks like man, sits like man, 'splains like a man, man-shoulders, man-hands, man-torso, man-face in side profile.

that's man. wouldn't know it until i watched the vid.

(cont)


static.makers.com/ZeroGirlsRaisedTheirHand.jpg

Why would they waste the money on her?

They are not spending any money on her or anything that she ever truly wished to develop. Everything being invested into her company was simply to use her as a puppet to deflect attention away the real project: DNA analysis on a micro scale. With such technology it would be possible to control everybody in the world by giving them an invisible Mark of the Beast. Instead of Social Security Numbers being written down on medical forms and job applications it will be a PGP-encrypted key that links to your genetic information in a worldwide database. Since the system will use encryption the government will claim they have no access to this information. Of course this is a lie because they will use whatever encryption is the most cutting edge that can be cracked by their supercomputers.

Now the government will be able to stop you from doing anything they want at any time. Also, they will be able to clone your blood, sweat, saliva, hair, and skin cells in order to be able to perfectly frame you for any sort of crime should you become an undesirable. Perhaps most frightening is that they will eventually be able to track every single thing you have ever done in your entire life after this network goes live, and by using algorithms to analyze the behavior of everybody they will be able to run computer simulations that perfectly mirror the behavior of an entire nation or continent of people. They'll use this to test the limits of their propaganda and perfect it to a level where no individual citizen will ever have a unique thought in their brain.

Agent-investors from the CIA were not spending money on some stupid medical test that doesn't work. They were spending it on a chance to play God.

TOP KEK

She looks cute

It's a guy, isn't it?

A psyop to condition the public to think favorably of small sensors that scan trace amounts of blood maybe? Push the 'medical miracle' angle so hard that anyone who complains about DNA collecting is looked at like some kook who's in with the anti vaccine crowd.

Looks like they jumped the gun big time. Had they pulled it off with news reports on how many lives this technology saves or can save, how the CEO is national hero, have some unappealing fraud like Alex Jones scream about how it's a tool of the devil, pop culture blitz to make people believe backwards regressives are holding back the pace of progress and in no time the public will accept the technology and attack detractors like . They get the sweet satisfaction of attacking another group for being wrong.

If what you're saying is true, is every other country on the same page? Especially countries that appear to be directly opposed to the US, mostly Russia and China.

If they aren't, then surely China is able to do things like this with ruthless efficiency, since they don't need to go through the motions, create a puppet to mask operations. They could probably go to some mudslime village in Xinjiang, grab some test subjects, and nobody would ever know the difference. And if they did, the zergling horde would probably not even bat an eye.

There's also the problem of people who have the power to create such proxies. Wouldn't this lack of balance of power lead to heavy amounts of infighting eventually? Since there's no allegiance to a country, how do these people work together? At some point, individuals operating on this level realizing that it would be in their best interest to carve out a kingdom for themselves while they still can. What happens when these people start with subterfuge (implying that there actually is some honor among thieves in the beginning) against former "allies", in that a proxy for the NSA is an ally of a proxy for the CIA. Both are US entities, thus allies, but it would appear that the concept of countries is quickly going out of fashion.

Is there anyone who truly comes out ahead in this situation? The person at the top of the pyramid? If there is one? Seems to me just another form of MAD.

Anyone got a mirror link?

Ugly looking women exist just like ugly sounding women exist.

Fucking traps couldn't fool a blind man.

It will feel very just to cleanse society of their kind.

Guys, I've been following the Theranos story for a long time. There is something you guys should know.

I haven't read this whole thread, don't really have time. I searched for the name and didn't get a hit, so here we go:

She had a CO-FOUNDER. A man. His name was Dr. Ian Gibbons.

He didn't want to go forward with the big money. He knew the tech wasn't ready.

He """ COMMITTED SUICIDE """ in 2013.

It's true. Look it up.

His wife spoke to the media some time after he died. She said that he told her the tech wasn't ready.

It kind of blows my mind how easily the CIA does it.

He probably banged her and felt so bad he had to kill himself. I mean, can you imagine what that thing would sound like getting fucked?

Wow.

Nice post.

Good job pol.

Tesla is a Jewish company that makes overrated cars.

Confirmed for puppet or satanist insider

He wasn't a co-founder – he was hired about 2 years later in 2005 as a researcher where he produced 23 patents for the company.

You are correct though that he did suspiciously commit suicide in 2013 after telling his wife that "nothing was working". Obviously, he was silenced to prevent this whole ruse imploding back in 2013.

That doesn't make sense, why not just cook the books on government budgets (possibly with supplemental revenue from the CIA's well known drug trafficking rackets), and then use layer after layer of compartmentalization to hide the project like they do with most government research projects? Top secret projects at government labs are effectively compartmentalized already, we know nothing of them, creating a puppet Stronk Independent CEO will only attract attention to them, especially if their are loose ends involving the money trail of investors, convenient suicide, etc. Dummy corporations are usually designed to be as obscure as possible, having a prominent billionaire propped up with CIA cash seems to be way too obvious, normies would not give a shit but conspiracy theorists and autists who dig into the story a little will find shady shit and blow the lid off of the thing,, while they would not find anything if it was merely a top secret project to begin with. Explain to me why they used this tactic instead of merely keeping the project in utmost secrecy to begin with, there seems to be no benefit.

Marilyn Manson in a pantsuit

This is likely. Also, you can imagine how many of those leftist VC's would fall over themselves to throw their money at a womyn in tech.

Russia maybe, China I seriously doubt it, because of both cultural and genetic reasons, oriental culture suppresses critical thinking innovation, etc. so while Chinks have excellent analytical skills they very rarely create anything or innovate upon anything, they focus more energy and resources on stealing US patents and intelligence than developing their own, and plagiarism is ubiquitous and unpunished in Chinese academia. Pic related, despite advantages like great social organization and enhanced ability in spatial reasoning among orientals they are severely deficient in creativity and innovation faculties, and contribute very little in the way of science or arts.

I wouldn't say East Asians are matriarchal, but I notice that Lisa Su was born in Taiwan. She almost certainly thrived in an environment where there was no pussy pass like there is here in the West. She is expected to perform her job to the best of her abilities, period.

Nah, classic sign of sociopathy, having consistently wide eyes by default with a lot of the whites of the eyes above the cornea exposed is textbook sign of sociopathy or psychopathy.

"[Statements by] a well-regarded life sciences investor in Silicon Valley and who has met with Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes a few times. This is someone I trust who is very credible. This person is also an ex-operator and generally empathetic / not a hater.


His view was that Theranos is likely a house of cards – not a fraud, but way over its skis in terms of valuation and actual vs. perceived company success. Here's what he told me:

Elizabeth Holmes has resisted taking capital from any typical life sciences investors over the years, probably because she doesn't want to have the company subject to scrutiny from that kind of investor.
Apparently she is known for refusing to get specific when people meet with her and ask about the company and its products/science. (My friend experienced this in an in-person meeting with her himself as well as knowing the reputation generally.)
She owns about / around 51% of the company. Regardless of the exact number - she controls the company.
She's "gone through multiple management teams" over the years. She is not surrounded by anyone who pushes back. Channing Robertson from Stanford is in his 70s and isn't a business person.
The company hasn't published any of its research, which is very unusual."

What are you, 15 years old? The death rate for the human race is 100%.

Depending on the situation the best way to hide something can be right out in the open. If the secret spying programs which were eventually revealed by Snowden had instead been fronted by a collection of social media websites do you think the public would have believed him so readily?


Indeed, it seems like placing a large portion of the NSA program into some publicly praised corporation would have made it much more resistant to the worst effects of whistleblowing. I'd like to hear of a more nuanced alternative aside from keeping it in complete secrecy because that is just a delusion.

For now they see the mutual benefit of the situation. I don't think all of the nations are working in unison, but there are likely two teams at play. One side is Russia/China aka BRICS and the other is USA/EU aka The Western World. As long as we have at least two competing sides there is a massive incentive for both of them to stay loyal. If BRICS wins then they gain control over the other half of the world, and once that part of the plan is finished they will divide it up just like the Corleone's and the Jewish lawyer in Godfather Part 2 with the cake of Cuba. Only after that time will they turn on eachother and start fighting amongst their allies, and then the process begins anew.

...

oh shit you're right

i was trying to figure out why her face was so unsettling; she looks like jeff the killer

I would love to make this pale, cute queen my wife… if she applied that generic tier engineering intelligence towards cooking a three and a half star dinner every night.

She'd have a nicer life if she went that route, as leagues of breeding white females her age would. Too bad.

It's a man, you dolt.

She looked like a villain.

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nigger I do that shit all the time, guess that makes me a satanist

If you want a hand gesture to make you freak the fuck out, look up how many celebutards do the Eye of Horus (cover/obscure one eye with their hand or other implement)

Literally anybody could make those cars if they got the same support from government and the media. Electric cars aren't hard. What's hard is getting the government subsidies, favorable regulation and market making media coverage that makes electric cars a viable alternative - i.e a stacked deck. The American government is trying to make a Volkswagen out of Tesla when there is already a better alternative. At least when Hitler started Volkswagen cars were already a lot better than a horse and cart, or bicycle.

This. Whenever someone starts praising Musk for "what he's accomplished" I always end up pointing out what you just mentioned. People act like the tech was "the accomplishment." He's an incredible guy but there's not much free-market in what he's done.

I just read this quora.com/Why-does-Marissa-Mayer-get-so-much-negative-press?ref=newsweek&rel_pos=1
It seems that the only women capable of running a company/country are men

implying she had to do anything else than hire Jim Keller to fix AMD
literally PR position in her case

sorry not black, chink like it matters, simply nonmale nonwhite person on hight position is a PR for the company, nothing else

probably something about taking samples from people without them knowing so, ergo the DNA tests from miligrams of blood you can obtain by scratcing any subject without any consent


he was talking about Nikolaj Tesla, the guy who BTFO'd Edison in fucking everything, mainly his DC with ACDC and with that he basically brought this modern age into existence

Also heavy into radio/wi-fi and a lot of much scarier shit that was all taken away after his death by (((US))) government

DC vs ACDC

ok nevermind, his comment was deleted so I didn't know he was in fact talking about the cars

You piqued me. What are the scary shits? I heard that he was going insane due the side effects caused by his inventions.

I was actually talking about the company. Tesla was an interesting dude though, pivotal. There is an unnecessary mythology around him though. Newton also delved into weird shit, nobody thinks that any of that was actually true - yet he is probably the most important scientist of all time. Somehow the weird shit that Tesla believed must be true.


Pic related is Elon Musk's real focus. Btw, Norway is a major oil and gas exporter what the fuck is it thinking?

if it was a man, he would have lost any credibility long long ago.

pic related

he basically invented what HAARP is using right now.
He wanted to give the whole world free electricity, he wanted to make some electricity stream running in ionosphere and towers charching it/taking back from it whenever they need to. In his experiments he learned it could be very well used as a weapon, bouncind the stream from ionosphere and anywhere back on earth you aimed it at. He stopped his whole research after that.

More scary is his research about some anti-gravity device that nullified gravity for objects
youtube.com/watch?v=o15_DQUm94s
this is scarier because we at least know about HAARP, but nobody knows if government are doing something with anti-gravity

Another scary thing is that we don't know what else the government could have, they literally charged his office hours after he died, took everything and made it TOP SECRET

yes it is user, she's a self made con artist

That is awesome but why did they locked them up? It would change the humanity forever and be free from jews.

to export more oil and gas while consuming less?

They are very good at copying though. The fact that there's thousands of Chinese students in the US in the bio field means that they're going to go back to the mainland and set up shop. This meme has nothing to do with this situation, it's in every major player's interest to have a bioengineering presence.

juden

LOL

Holy shit, I hope she is stuck in a minimum wage job. I doubt she left Standford just for this, I would not be surprised if she left due to failing grades.

lol

lol!

I'd tap it.

What's wrong with the people invested in her company?

I don't know if you want to do that lad. She sits like a man.

I would stick my dick in this crazy with the force of the hammer of Thor and I very genuinely have no idea why.

Because she's a sexy crazy woman? Anyway it is possible that it is a he but I would be wrong.

...

She looks (literally), talks like a genetics experiment gone wrong. Her mother's name is Daoust which apparently is a Jewish name too. As is that of her great-great grandfather Fleischmann. americanlastnames.us/D/DAOUST.html Perhaps they threw some genes together in the lab along with certain genes of her parents and created this strange yet superficially good looking character. As a feminist window-dressing poster for female goy billionnaire success. There is very little that would still surprise me these days.