On the Holocaust "Narrative"

There's a great deal of discussion on Holla Forums revolving around the Holocaust "Narrative" that exists today - that is, the way in which the schools, politicians, movies, and books portray the Holocaust. But I think this board suffers from a complete and utter ignorance in regards to actual Holocaust narratives (that is, first-hand accounts dealing with the event). In fact, there are a particular group of narratives that I find it worth bringing to your attention.

Immediately after the end of the war and their liberation from various German camps, the interned began sharing their experiences. Before the Holocaust "Narrative" that exists today was cemented, writers from many different nationalities and in many different languages published raw, first-hand accounts of events still fresh in their memory. For brevity's sake, we'll focus on three of these memiors: Janusz Nel Siedlecki/Krystyn Olszewski/Tadeusz Borowski's "We Were in Auschwitz", Primo Levi's "If This is a Man", and Margarete Buber-Neumann's "Under Two Dictators: Prisoner of Stalin and Hitler". These works have a few curious aspects that are worth reflecting on:

1) Despite being written by three different groups (a trio of Christian Poles, an Italian Jew, and a German ex-Communist respectively) these books all describe very similar experiences, events, and camp dynamics. All are set in Auschwitz (or one of its constituent camps), and all paint Auschwitz in a remarkably comparable light - for instance, their portrayals of the arrivals of new prisoners and their categorization. Prior to the existence of a Holocaust "Narrative", before the fog of time and the pressures of the coming changes in society, a group of disparate prisoners wrote works that shared a lot in common.
2) These works are uncompromising and harsh towards all involved. Unlike movies or books about the Holocaust today, they do not paint a black and white narrative of victim/perpetrator. Borowski notes with almost perverse pride how his cunning allowed him to gain one ups on his fellow prisoners to survive. Nor do they have a narrow focus on the Jewish experience. Even Levi, a Jew, makes careful note of the various interned groups, their circumstances, their plights, and their internal dynamics. A common theme in all three is the way in which human's become monsters when striped of civilization, and their greatest critique of the camp is that its inhumanity turned humans into beasts. Rather than sending beasts to the camps, the camps made people into beasts.
3) The three not only corroborate each other, but are corroborated by the similarity of their accounts towards accounts of the Soviet Gulags - a source of inspiration for later German camps. They describe similar hierarchies (Guards, then Criminals - Urkas in Russian and Kapos in German, then privileged/clever prisoners, then the 'goners'). They describe work and food (food is almost the singular concern for prisoners in both cases) and camp life in eerily familiar terms. In fact, Neumann herself went through both camp systems consecutively, and thus her memoir provides a fascinating insight into the comparisons between the two.

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So of what relevance is this? Well, I find that certain political views depend on either ignorance or cognitive dissonance. That is, they so directly conflict with reality that one must either remain ignorant or, once confronted with reality, engage in cognitive dissonance. The American Left's conception of the Black criminal as a racist "construct", for instance, is dependent on wholesale ignorance of - or willful indifference to - FBI crime statistics. Islamic "Feminists" can only continue to peddle their deeply contradictory viewpoint as long as they refuse to read the Koran or, when confronted with its contents, simply ignore it…

…and the same could be said of the Holocaust denier. Like the Zionist dominated media, many Holla Forums users are caught up in the numbers (Did 6 million Jews really die?) and in solely the Jewish aspect of the Holocaust. You squabble over how many dead Jews there were, essentially. In doing so, however, you willfully ignore the vast complexity and incredible reach of the Holocaust as an event. You ignore the millions of non-Jews whose stories are not entirely dissimilar, but are entirely ignored by both the media and by deniers themselves.

Furthermore, and perhaps even more importantly, in focusing on the numbers you ignore the nature of the camps themselves. They were, fundamentally speaking, inhuman. That is, they were designed to deliberately strip people of their humanity. They were evil. They were death camps first and work camps second. That is the only conclusion one can reach upon reading first hand accounts. And I use these early accounts as an example because they are not "constructions". They are not tainted by distant memory, or by modern politics, or by the possibility of collaboration or cross-contamination. They are independent, immediate, and concurrent. This is what makes them so powerful.

Have you read a single Holocaust narrative? Have you read a single history book on the Holocaust (even David Irving's would suffice)? How in the hell can you not only hold the view that "the Holocaust didn't happen", but also try and convince other people when you yourself are wholly and completely ignorant? Note that I'm not using ignorant as an insult here, like a Leftist would. It is simply a state, a state that can be changed but only on your own initiative. Of course, the truth is that you need to remain ignorant. Because the more you learn the more difficult it becomes to maintain a denialist stance. It becomes very hard to continue to believe that nobody was marched to their death at Auschwitz (gas chambers or not) when you read eyewitness accounts of it happening written directly after the fact.

In "The Captive Mind", Czeslaw Milosz writes that the Communists used German atrocities as 'psychological preparation' to soften newly conquered Eastern Europe to Stalinism. He was writing in the 1940s, as it was happening, and it was prescient. The Holocaust was and is used to political ends. The official "Narrative" should be open to criticism. But Milosz didn't deny what happened. Far from it. He saw the vans roaming through wartime Warsaw. His anger was directed at those who would use such an event for political ends.

And that, I think, is eminently more reasonable than denying reality. Which is, I submit, what many of you do. Because ultimately accepting reality would mean accepting that many of the National Socialist regime's actions were fundamentally, irrevocably inhuman. And where would that leave you?

You've convinced me. Hitler was a really bad guy, NS is wrong.

Should I import 6,000,000 muhammads and niggers to my country to wash away my cis white privilege?

Even if NS actions were "inhuman"(lol), jews, communists and faggots 100% deserved it.

Did you think that was clever when you typed it out?

Although it's funny, because in a sense your view here is shared by the Left. Now anyone who is a Nationalist must be a National Socialist, and as you say anyone who is not a National Socialist must not be a Leftist.

It must be absurd to you, I imagine, the idea that someone like me might be a Nationalist but NOT a National Socialist.

For the sake of argument I am perfectly happy to concede that. Again, what about the others?

I suppose, more than anything else, this thread is meant to get you to think about the others. When I talk about ignorance, I mean it is their stories who you - ironically like the modern media - ignore.

THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED BUT IT WILL SOON
THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED BUT IT WILL SOON
THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED BUT IT WILL SOON
THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED BUT IT WILL SOON
THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED BUT IT WILL SOON
THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED BUT IT WILL SOON
THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED BUT IT WILL SOON
THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED BUT IT WILL SOON

Very ebin, so smart. Now, can you post the differences between your generic Nationalism and NS? I'd like to see how bluepilled you are.


What is "sage"?
Posters may reply to threads without bumping them to the top of the index by putting "sage" in the email field.

Also, I think it's worth considering 'what' it is that people 'deserved'.

That is, I'm not entirely sure you understand exactly how these camps operated. Nor do I think your viewpoint would remain the same were you to read first hand descriptions thereof.


Lol. National Socialism is a version of Nationalism. To be the former, you must be the latter. However, the reverse does not apply.

That's a non-answer.

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HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!

HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!

HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!
HEIL HITLER, GAS THE HERETIC!

GET = CLOSE THREAD AND DO NOT QUESTION NATSOC

GET = CLOSE THREAD AND DO NOT QUESTION NATSOC

GET = CLOSE THREAD AND DO NOT QUESTION NATSOC

...

THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPANED

SAGE + REPORT + HIDE
SAGE + REPORT + HIDE
SAGE + REPORT + HIDE
SAGE + REPORT + HIDE
SAGE + REPORT + HIDE

The Holocaust is the planned extermination of six billion Jews. If the Holocaust is reduced to putting fifth columnists in camps, the Holocaust did not happen and the popularly accepted Holocaust narrative is wrong.

Fuck off JIDF/mods

This guy gets it 😊

sage

This. Tbh I think that it was just work camps. That's still pretty bad but it's not MUH SIX GORRILLION. Therefore, no holohoax.

"They were death camps first and work camps second."
But the camps had food and shelter. They had currency, they had doctors.

More importantly, I think you are ignoring the context. It was wartime. You had to force people to the war effort. Jews and other undesirables had to be kept in camps, because of their views.
Germany was not the only one with the camps. American POW camps had huge death tolls, Russian Gulags had even more deaths, the list goes on and on.
Also, we are supposed to only cry about children, women, elderly who died on the camps, while children, women and elderly were dying at the same time in firebombings and getting raped by enemy troops.
I'm not trying to say that some peoples lives are worth more than others, but that people die in war and in total war, the civilian who is not responsible for the war is among the ones getting killed.

If we want to prevent another holocaust, don't go to fucking war.

don't mind me, just curious what the get was

Hmm, I wonder what happens when a thread like this is spammed? Will the mods act? It'll be interesting to see.


It suffices for our purposes - that is, the nature of our particular intrathread discussion.

Whether or not the current Holocaust "Narrative" (which I addressed) is true or false, does not mean that as an event it was insignificant. Again, this is why I suggest you read some of the accounts of the prisoners themselves.

Before forming an opinion on the nature of the camps, it would be worthwhile to read both sides. Don't you think?


Yes, however the key to understanding the nature of the camps is to know what each of these words meant practically speaking in the camp context. Again, this is why I suggest you read some of these narratives. Then you might understand what food meant, as both an idea and as actual objects, in camp.

Now in the next section you proceed to deflect. And in doing so you make very basic factual errors which I could correct in detail - and then you'd respond - and we be derailed into minutiae. What I'd put forth to you is that even considering the CONTEXT - that is, the war context - the German camps were inhuman. To understand what I mean by inhuman, again it is necessary to read about the ways in which these camps transformed both prisoner and guard. That is what makes them so fascinating.

I think you mistake our concern over the numbers as complete denial. We know people died, a lot of people.
The main concern is how. Do these accounts say there was systematic extermination, or shitty conditions? Was it a laundry shoot from train to grave, or was it a slow attrition that increased as resources became scarce?

There is no evidence for deliberate extermination, and accounts of such come later and are contradictory to each other. As you yourself have noted, the early accounts corroborate each other of the gulag like setting.

Even more, OP ignores the fact that concentration camps aren't German invention and USA, Japan, England, USSR and probably some other countries have used them as well.
In fact, CCs are English invention. They were used against Boers.

But who cares, lol? NS is bad, only civic nationalism is good :^)

Correct, which is why I suggest you read them and accounts of the gulag.

You see, the gulags were also known as "work" camps but the very way they functioned made their actual purpose clear. Those too weak to work were killed (why were the sent to a "work" camp in the first place if they couldn't work?), and those who could work were worked to death (if your goal is to maximize output, how is overwork/underfeeding to the point of death an optimal approach?).

The answer to both questions is at the heart of the nature of these camps.

Why would I deny that? In fact, what possible reason could you conceive for me denying that?

I'll phrase it another way. A Leftist will say 'we are a nation of immigrants' - the implication being that all immigrants are the same. You say 'all these countries had concentration camps' - the implication being that all concentration camps are the same.

In both cases, the implication is clearly flawed upon closer examination.

Why was this thread anchored? I'm curious what rule it violated.

BECAUSE YOU ARE A DISGUSTING JEWISH SHILL, GO KILL YOURSELF

SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE GOES INTO ALLLLL FIELDS

That's completely wrong. My point is: concentration camps were used by all major world powers. By focusing on Germany you're doing the kosher work.

Even more: conditions in German CCs were far better than in Soviet or American ones.


Because you're shilling for holohoax.

There's nothing to say to people like you. When discourse breaks down, it breaks down.

Never change, leftycucks.

ya i wanna hear more from op

NICE ID CHANGE YOU BLOODY COMMUNIST LEFTIST SCUM

I'm not the one who bumplocked the thread, buddy.

You know you don't need to sage anymore, right? I guess this must be new to you.

honestly I'm a regular, I like a good debate, I say let him speak

He's not banned, no one is stopping him from debating you or anyone else.


Good job ignoring my questions and arguments.

It's not worth trying to reason with him friend. Just take note of what happened to this thread and pay attention to when it happens in the future.

It'll tell you a lot about the state of this board.

i have doubts about the logistics, what say yee about the logistics of the hole thing, those gas chambers look shoddy and not like a gas chamber etc etc

If the thread were not bumplocked, I'd be happy to respond.

So, you're here for a cheap publicity? Too bad, nobody cares about your holohoax and your attention-whoring.

It's rather beside the point. Like I said, I'm not terribly concerned with questions like "How many Jews were gassed?" or anything of that nature. I think it dominates debates on the Holocaust. All I recommend is that you read some of the accounts written directly after the events by non-Jewish prisoners. Their stories are largely forgotten, unfortunately.


Well we don't know whether people care, because the thread has been bumplocked. See how that works?

I am pretty impressed that you could call my OP attention whoring though. I wonder how you thought that one up.

so if I said 6 million is bull, you would agree?

Check the replies and you'll know.

It's simple: if you are here just for debates and good discussion, you shouldn't give a damn about bumplocking. There is reason why mods aren't deleting threads like these.

that's a good point op

It was self-evident from OP's post that he isn't from here, and his post immediately reveals his true intent, but as we haven't had a decent holohoax thread in a while, I disagree with the bumplock.

lad why are you bothering arguing with the shill?

You emphasize the "inhumanity" of the camps, but I don't think you understand the meaning of "war." You should experience one.

I'm too bored to do anything else.

One expert on the holohoax….

toben.biz

Holocaust Or Holohoax? 21 Amazing Facts

cigpapers.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/holocaust-or-holohoax-21-amazing-facts/

Read the curious Amazing Facts - it is brief. And then decide for yourself.