The fate of Rome

It's been too long since we had a good Holla Forums historical analysis, and far too many people divide themselves into either cyclical or progressive interpretations of history. Reality follows the organic principles of the people who are shaped by it, and as a result is much more varied than either a cyclical (i.e. Oswald Spengler) or progressive (i.e. Whig) model.
Given the above, I present for debate

The true fate of the Roman Empire
The guiding force of European civilization in the last two millenia
How it has shaped European development
- and -
Why it still exists today

PART 1: The surface of history
It is assumed at a glance that the Roman Empire ended a few hundred years after the death of Christ - most knowledgeable people would give it a vague time-of-death somewhere between the 3rd and 5th centuries, and consider the Byzantine Empire to be a separate historical entity. For our modern and compartmentalised historical analysis this can be defensible, however at the time the Byzantines considered themselves the Eastern half of the Empire; an entirely valid assertion, and once the Western half gave power to the Goths in the late 5th century the Byzantines continued to rule in the spirit of the Roman Emperors for the better part of 1000 years. It was only about 150 years after the apparent fall of Western Rome that Islam sprung out of the desert in the East, and until 1453 the Eastern Empire withstood endless waves of jihad, finally capitulating to the Ottomans on May 29th of that year. If the historian has followed the thread this far, they would conclude that the civilization born on the shores of the Tiber died that day after some 2000 years in the sun.

However, a contemporaneous examination of the course of succession indicates a much more fluid history of where this mighty empires inheritance was invested, as we shall see in the next few posts.

PART 2: The course of the Western Roman Empire
It is easy to confuse BC-era Rome as the Golden age of expansion and fortune. Indeed, in it's years as a republic, Rome was immensely powerful and prosperous. However, the ambition of men does is not conservative, and when Julius Caesar was declared dictator for life, the republic was over and the empire begun. The old rotting institutions now bowed to the will of the reigning autocrat, which was personified in Julius' successor, Octavian (known later as Augustus, a name associated with such honour that it became a title itself). After Augustus, many centuries passed, characterised by unsurpassed military strength, vast trade routes and chaotic Imperial succession that gave the people as many tyrants as it did benefactors. Civil war was frequent and destructive, and by the end of the 3rd century the Empire had undergone several bizarre arrangements with multiple men ruling at once. This was ended by Constantine the Great, who reformed the Empire and moved the capital east to Byzantium, which he renamed Constantinople. Constantine is recognised as the first Christian emperor of Rome, and is considered a saint in virtually all Christian canons - this is important to note, as the influence of the church cannot be underestimated from here onwards. The unification achieved by Constantine was undone when he died, and only repeated by Theodosius and Justinian.

Basically, the majority of post-Augustan empire was a mess, with very few men actually possessing the administrative genius to hold it all together.
The Western Roman Empire was particularly unlucky, and was regularly harassed by the Germanic tribes that had never been fully subdued. After losing immense portions of the empire over a relatively short period, the last Western Roman Emperor was deposed by the Germanic-born military leader Odoacer. Despite being an Arian Christian, Odoacer had support from the Church and Pope of the time, and was initially unopposed by the Eastern Emperor Zeno. The relations broke down however, and his successor was the Ostrogoth Theodoric the Great. So begins the next phase of the Western Roman Empire, which though ruled by Germans, was still considered Rome by the rest of the world at the time.

Theodoric, in whose name "Thiudareiks" we see the origins of the German "Reich", began a line of Germanic kings of Italy who never reconquered the territories of the West. The line continued until the mid 6th century, when the wars of the Eastern Emperor Justinian overthrew both Totila and his successor Teia, absorbing the paltry influence of the Western Roman Empire and uniting the two Imperial capitals for the last time. By the time the Eastern Empire had been removed from Italy, it was halfway through the 8th century. The violent rise of Islam had begun in earnest in the east, and was kept at bay in the west by the Frankish duke Charles Martel after ravaging its way across north Africa. In Europe many small warring kingdoms fought for the favour of the church of Rome - the last vestige of Western Imperial power. The Middle Ages had well and truly begun, and the throne of the Western Roman Empire was empty.

PART 2 CONTINUED: The West is reborn
It wasn't long until a successor rose up. Around the time that the Eastern Empire had been expelled from Italy, Charles Martel's son Pepin was sanctioned King of the Franks by the Pope, and Pepin's son was none other than Charles the Great - Charlemagne. In the year 800, Charlemagne's expansive unification of central Europe, including Rome, saw him crowned Emperor. His kingdom was simply known as the Roman Empire, until about the 12th century when it became more widely known as the Holy Roman Empire. It was known to the Germans as the First Reich, and lasted over 1000 years until 1806 when it was dissolved. Despite even the Reformation and rise of Protestant Christianity, the Emperors continued the Roman tradition of Christianity and were recognised by the Popes as the true Roman Emperors. The German Emperor of Rome was known as the Kaiser - the Germanic form of Caesar - and continued the use of the name Augustus and the spiritual personification of that ancient, deified Roman. However, the spectre of lineage politics that haunted Rome had remained throughout the centuries, and few Emperors were ever unopposed. The complex web of inheritance saw many pretenders rise and fall from all over Europe, leading to a somewhat confusing family tree spread across the monarchies of all Europe. Despite the awe-inspiring dominance of the Holy Roman Empire, many fought to usurp her glory, including none other than Napoleon Bonaparte.

The First French Empire founded by Napoleon - though controlling virtually all mainland Europe - had no illusion of being the succession of Roman rule. However, the impressions of imperial legacy lived on through the structure of his government and the golden wreath he wore at his coronation. It was the costly war against Napoleon that reduced the Holy Roman Empire to a shadow of it's former power, and in 1806 it was finally reduced into a set of smaller states. Germanic leaders of what is dubbed the "Second Reich" continued the use of "Kaiser", but dropped the Augustan title, and were not recognised by the church. The Roman Empire, in the West at least, had lost its political arm but retained its religious one. The Roman Catholic Church still appoints the Pontifex Maximus, though it has been two centuries since the last Roman Emperor ruled. As for the last of the German Kaisers, Wilhelm II, he died an exile in the Netherlands. Though he was a supporter of the Third Reich, Hitler was somewhat bemused by him, and mostly ignored or derided his communiques.

PART 3: The course of the Eastern Roman Empire
The Eastern Roman Empire presents a different tale to that of the West. When Constantine moved the capital to Byzantium, much of the relative power moved with him, and the west floundered considerably. Where the Western half had lost all credibility through intrigue and capitulation, the East maintained a unified outward appearance and continued to champion the imperial cause. The Empire had been reunited only a couple of times, perhaps most notably by Justinian, who went so far as to reclaim Rome itself. Though virtually all of Europe had been abandoned, his gains in the east were the most extensive that the Roman empire had seen. Rome was, of course, lost once more in the mid 8th century to the Lombards and Germanics. The pre-Islamic Sasanid Empire was the greatest direct threat to Byzantium, and after Constantine's conversion they actively persecuted all Christians in their territory. Confusingly, the zoroastrian Sasanids were amicable towards the Jews who still held to their pharisaic interpretation of the Old Testament. The Sasanids were wiped out by Islam almost immediately after its conception, and the waylaying of Christian lands became the highest priority target for the next 1400 years of jihad. As Islam slashed its way across North Africa, deleting all records of the world that came before, the city of Constantine stood as an impenetrable bulwark against it. It was besieged multiple times, but only ransacked twice - once by self-styled Crusaders, and finally by the Ottomans. The Fourth Crusade of the early 1200s is popularly regarded as the beginning of the end for Byzantium, but was less of a conscious act of invasion by Western Crusaders and more an unfortunate series of selfish accidents. Prior to the Fourth Crusade the Romans had easily kept Islam at bay, despite a lack of support and sometimes outright hostility from Europe. Regardless of the cause, the power of the empire was strained by these events.

Constantinople was recognised as the greatest treasure in the world, and its heritage of beauty and knowledge was vast and ancient - its library contained texts from the Library of Alexandria. This was destroyed by the Ottoman invaders, but our modern-day knowledge of classical Greek literature is owed entirely to the Eastern Roman Empire. Finally, in 1453, the strength of the East gave way. Barely 10,000 men held out against hundreds of thousands under the command of the Turkish Sultan, and as the ancient walls of Theodosius fell under cannon fire, no help was forthcoming from the west. During the siege, ancient relics were melted down into coins to pay mercenaries, and during the plunder that followed the Muslim forces left no quarter. It is said that a fog enshrouded the city during the siege, and as it lifted, a strange light was seen departing from the Hagia Sophia. The legends claim it was the Holy Spirit leaving the city. The Emperor Constantine XI removed his Imperial vestments and lead his men in a final charge. His body was never found, and is said to be enshrined in marble until the day Christendom needs him once more. The rape of Constantinople may be the greatest crime in the history of the middle ages. The victorious Sultan declared himself Kayser-i Rum, Caesar of Rome, but this adoption was not respected by any. The true Caesar lived on in the halls of the Orthodox Church, and the descendants of Byzantine royalty moved with it into Russia.

Russia had its own history similar to that of pre-Roman Europe, but with the added influence of raiding Asiatic warlords. Various kingdoms rose and fell with the ages, but in the 15th century, a prophecy was given to Ivan III stating that his kingdom would become the Third Rome. After the fall of the Byzantine incarnation of the Roman Empire, Ivan cleared the field of contenders and named his empire the Tsardom of Russia, with himself as the Tsar. Sometimes Anglicised as Czar, it is a transliteration of Caesar, and just like the emperors of Byzantium, all subsequent Tsars had the theological weight of the Orthodox Church behind them. The course of the Russian Roman Empire was relatively smooth, similar to the Byzantine one before it, and had a fiery distate for Islamic pretension. The East never reclaimed Constantinople, now called Istanbul, as the last Tsar had been overthrown by the Communists in 1917.

PART 4: The beginning of the modern era
After World War I, Constantinople was once more in European hands. The predominantly Christian allies of the Anglosphere had taken it, and a Turkish insurgency battled against them in order to defy the imposed Treaties. The Sultanate was overthrown, ending the phony title of "Kayser-i Rum" and installing a majority-Islamic republic. Millions of Greeks, some the descendants of Byzantines, returned to Europe.

We already know the fate of the world after this. The First World War was the last act in the age of Imperium, a ghostly echo of the Roman Empire before it. The British Empire had subjugated or outlasted the descendent arms of Rome, both east and west. The Second World War saw a revival of Roman-styled autocracy, but was suppressed at great cost to the victors. The dictators evoked an Imperialism that lay in the hearts of all Europeans, but was stifled by the strange new world to the West. Mussolini's Rome was a faded shadow of the former Empire. Hitler's Germany derided the Holy Roman heritage and laid false claim to the Third Reich - there was no Western Rome to be found in Germania. Stalin's Russia evolved slowly into some sort of nationalism, but died with him.

Today, Britain is the only remaining successor to the great European heritage of Empire. There are, however, two major powers currently adopting the Imperial eagle, one of which has made its way further West and across the sea to the United States, the future of which is in flux. Russia, for its part, appears to be making a return to Tsardom, in nature if not in name. Just as the Western Roman Empire lay dormant before the Germanic Emperors revived it, the East lay subdued under Communism for most of the 20th century. We may yet see the Fourth Rome rise in our lifetimes, crowned by the patriarch of the Orthodox Church, as is only proper.

PART 5: Final dormancy, mythology and conclusion
Where does the power of Rome lie in the world without empires? The material world, dominated by Marxism and Capitalism and everything between, does not recognise the divine power of the Roman Empire. It appears, for now at least, that Rome has finally been laid to rest. We have entered a pre-Alexandrian Greek period of Kingdoms and Democracies.

There is a curious synchronicity between great Christian kings of old. It is so widespread that it is termed the "Rising Hero Myth". Arthur, Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, and Constantine XI are all characterised as heroes who did not die, but are merely resting, and awaiting the day their people rediscover them and call on their strength. They all lie, in some way, amidst the foggy tombs their worldly circumstances ended. The misty isle of Avalon, the mist over Constantinople. The rising hero waits.

History is constant, because human nature is unchanging. The truth is that Rome never left us, and we never left it. All European civilization is based on the legacy of it, laws, societal structure, education, engineering and science, lineage and family, the entire modern Western psyche was formed from thousands of years of chasing the glory of Rome across the West and East. When Rome fell, Islam - the ancient enemy - rose to greater heights within a century. It is no coincidence.

As we enter this fractured point in history, who will be the Julius Caesar of our material world? Who is the Constantine? These men reigned in a martial age, and dominated by means of intellect and arms. Today, where the wealth of the world lies in money and influence, such a man would have proven himself by the formation of a monetary and material empire. He would ascend to power by crossing the Rubicon not with force of arms, but by popular influence.

Yes, I pre-wrote it all
No, I won't be available for further discussion immediately

TRUMP


New York, New York

...

What you trying to slide, schlomo?

Interesting read.
This is simply not true. The 3rd Reich is full of Roman symbolism. From the Reichadler to discipline and dictator for life. Emphasis is on the people, the state and realpolitik. This is the definition of the spirit of the Roman empire.

One thing that I noticed that Europe inherited the roman spirit of ingeniousness where they adopted foreign technologies fast and used it to their advantages. This of course resulted in the Renaissance and subsequent industrial revolution.
And Russia especially. 150 mil people and they get good practical scientists by far, best military considering how cash strapped they are and sane leadership even when weighted down by idiotic communism.

That is my hope user


Starting an interesting course of discussion is not sliding


Fair point about Germany. It's also true that some parts of the German churches supported Hitler. However, the population had no real spiritual impetus, and Hitler never made claim to the title of Emperor - at least not as far as I've been able to see.

Toppest of Keks

TBH he didn't have much time and he didn't have any incentive to do so. And the old-school title of the Emperor is given by a priest as a divine mandate and is essentially a brand that need time to be legitimate. It's a bit tough to imagine that since Hitler didn't seek or emphasize the support of the church that much. He took the mandate from it's people and his government had a secular foundation. Maybe he would work on the secular title if he had the time.

Video related. Russian church sees Putin as a Czar but he shies away since muh PR.
Kikes have shamed the mere notion of Kings, Emperors and Czars so a normal dictator just can't get out and proclaim empires in the old sense of the word.

Ebin :DDD

Nice disinfo, 10shekels/10.

USSR was absurdly anti-nationalist even before WW2.
-t. slav

that conclusion came out of nowhere :DD

mage roumam embire grate again :D

Considering they ware larger the Rome at some point this is pretty accurate

I would go so far as to say that they DID have a spiritual impetus, at least one in the making,and one that paralleled the Roman spiritual impetus- "For the Glory of Rome" was the only destiny that mattered in the early days, the destiny that made Rome great. The Third Reich had almost exactly the same idea, only with added emphasis on Germanic peoples. Now, which one of those is better? A homogenous empire or a heterogenous empire? I think history gives us the answer to that one as well.

However I agree with you- Rome was the high point of our history, and every high point since then has only been through chasing that glory. If Evropa and her children are to be great again, we will once more have to embody that spiritual essence… but I'm not sure Trump is what you're looking for, friendo. You (and the rest of Holla Forums) would do well to guard yourself against projecting your own desires onto him. The battle isn't won when/if he's elected president.

We need to make Rome Great Again, or at least Russia.

Ive been reading a lot of Roman and Greek literature, and I just have this feeling at the back of my head that I have the obligation to kickstart the Empire. Or that someone will, soon.

>>>/his/

You're not alone. The same spirit is probably in most of the posters here, it's the same one that drove men throughout European history.


Trump's election is not where we click our fingers and start saying "Empire", that wasn't the point of the essay. He marks a definite fork on the road of civilization, and he takes us down the same road that Julius Caesar took Rome. But you are correct, he is not himself an Emperor. I expect only sanity from him, not Imperium.

China, is spite of having been conquered by foreigners and broken into bits again and again is considered one country/civilization, because of the continued use of the Chinese language, in spite of the large changes it has undergone in those processes. This is because its script is ideographic, so historical phonetic changes are largely irrelevant to the written language.

Latin on the other hand is written with an alphabet, which means that changes incurred in it since Antiquity had to be recognized in the way it was written when new generations in the former territory of Rome wante to distance themselves from the language used by the Church.

tl;dr
OP is right that Rome arguably still exists, in the way China still exists

If Trump is Caesar our Constantine will be the ruler who gives up the fight against Islam and our Theodosius will be the one who makes it the state religion.

whos?

bump because Holla Forums needs more history threads

/his/ is a liberal shithole, unless you want to discuss muslims, the """holocaust""" and how niggers were kangz in every fucking thread it's better to stay away from that place no matter how much you like history.

...

Why would the settle for the Roman Empire?

They held the single largest contiguous land empire in the history at their peak.


Here is an animated gif of their conquest

usury
/thread

Russia doesn't need any help. In fact I plan on moving there.

The Roman Empire goes beyond land size. The mongol empire lasted a fraction of what the Rome did, and Rome has an insane amount of cultural innovations and revolutions that Mongols can't compare with.

All they have is their rap.

And sick ass throat chanting.

Zorigoo best mongolian

ES, Spurdo, Spede, mami

Mongolian culture has brought so much to the world.

Anything after 1453 is illegitimate, Wtf are you doing OP?

Holy shit the guy they had singing as Tengri had the voice of a fucking angel.

that's some sick rap son tbh.

mongol pretty much have the good life now.
their historical background is honorable. Their current situation with the rest of the world is quite peaceful. Their nation is developing normally. It's not the perfect land but I at least they can have hope that their nation will still exist the same way it did for the last centuries. At same time their HDI increases to the point it will be considered a developed nation in a decade or two.

overall, they deserve their peace and they even give us epic meme whiteout even posting

I'm glad we're all in agreement that Mongol rap is great. Eons beyond nigger rap

perfect friday night, thanks OP

There isn't much to say: multiculturalism and mass immigration killed the Roman Empire, it's historically proven.

you're right about Trump, though I'd 'argue' that most of us here don't expect "Empire" from him right away. All I can say is that Trump has been a huge a step forward for America. Slaughtering every cuckservative candidate is massive progress.

why hasn't china annexed Mongolia yet?

I mean there's only 3m mongols there, tons of space and China is over populated and in need of females and looking to build an empire

is it because
kinda weird, I wouldn't imagine a close relationship between both but it would make the border between Russia/China even more dangerous
OR
I think it's this one. every time they look at the Great Wall they scrap their plans of invasion

first of all, I think your part 1 could've been some sort of prelude or preamble. anyway

I really enjoy that myth

pretty much every european country has it, in some manner. heck, even many non-european countries have it.
some even have it in a fairly recent time (King Sebastian in Portugal which had people who believed fervently in the legend as recently as the XIX century (!!!), both in Portugal and Brazil)

goddamn it, I really wanna do something big related to european mythos, the similarities, the origins and how they are connected to who we are intrinsically

forgot to add that the dude died in battle (supposedly) in the 16th century. so yeah, this myth is very pervasive in the european psyche

yes

bump

bump

This map is a mess.

British empire was literally Jewish you stupid pleb. Kill yourself.

Köztársaság means republic in Hungarian
If you want to make it realistic name it "Magyarország"

lel

Hitler disagreed

And he, nay, all of us, payed the price for that belief.

...

US = West Rome.

Russia = East Rome.

Is that you Barry Cletus?