There are countries where it is illegal to deny the holocaust ever happened...

Israel

MiniTruth hath Spoken.

IT WAS 70 YEARS AGO YOU OBSESSIVE FAGGOTS, NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.

Jews

Even if I had seen no debunking claims, it would still be suspicious. I can't think of a single instance where government implemented censorship hasn't been used to obscure facts that are harmful to said government.

Not especially. There are countries where it's illegal to say nigger. There are countries where it's illegal to compare President Erdogan to Gollum. There are countries where the Communist Manifesto is illegal. There are countries where it's illegal to advocate pedophilia. There are countries where it's illegal to call the Armenian Genocide a genocide, and countries where it's illegal to deny that it was. It's illegal to advocate ISIS just about everywhere.

It's illegal to talk about Tiananmen Square in China, to call a cop a pig in Spain, to insult someone in Germany, to burn a foreign flag (but not a Danish flag) in Denmark, to promote the Salvation Army in Russia, to promote Falun Gong in China, to be a communist in Ukraine, to advocate monarchism in Iran, to say that God doesn't exist in Pakistan, to criticise the king in Thailand, to say that Kurds were historically independent in Turkey, to call a natural remedy a medicine in the EU, to say that McDonald's destroy rainforests in Britain, to say that Zoe Quinn is a whore in America. Nazi Germany banned quantum physics and psychoanalysis. The USSR banned modern genetics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Esperanto.

It doesn't mean that any of these views are true or false. Some of them are banned because (like Holocaust denial) they're seen as inciting hatred or harassing someone. Some of them are banned because (like Holocaust denial) they are seen as promoting extremist ideologies and actions. Some of them are banned because (like Holocaust denial) they are seen as undermining the government in power. Some of them are banned because (like Holocaust denial) they are thought to disturb intergroup harmony or "order".

Governments are ridiculously repressive. Most of them do not respect free speech. They often ban ideas they find inconvenient, threatening, or contrary to state ideology. This doesn't make the banned ideas any more or less likely to be true. You might or might not believe that herbal remedies, psychoanalysis or atheism, but the fact that they were banned somewhere doesn't make them any more true than they were before. Tiananmen Square is banned because it's dangerously true; pedophile advocacy is banned because it's dangerously untrue; the Armenian genocide is banned in both directions because it's controversial whether it is true or not.

I value free speech. People should have the right to deny the Holocaust. But the Nazis banned communist ideology, anarchist ideology, libertarian ideology, Jehovah's Witnesses, modern art, psychoanalysis, quantum physics and other 'Jewish science', Esperanto, foreign radio, uncensored newspapers, porn, pacifism, criticising the president, even saying "good morning". I'd rather live in a liberal-fascist country than a full-out fascist one.

If you want to talk about whether the Holocaust *happened* and not whether you can say so, the best starting-place is the Pressac report, or the Nizkor site (which is devoted to rebutting denial). Deniers rarely respond seriously to these.

...

Both the red cross and the USA gov never found any death camps though, the only one who apparently figured out all of the death camps were the soviets, that's pretty fucking suspicious

I live in such a country. I believe in the holocaust, but even I think those laws are fucked up.
Good luck trying to even talk about getting rid of it, most people will just call you a nazi.

OP is a [gentleman*].

I almost breezed by that one. Nice.

Not true.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Frank#Denials_of_authenticity_and_legal_action
annefrank.org/ImageVaultFiles/id_14671/cf_21/tenquestions_en.pdf

Germany and Holland consider denials of the diary's authenticity libellous, which they most certainly wouldn't if their own police had decided it was a forgery.

I gotta ask, at this point, what would be the goal of denying?
What would there be to gain?

Have you ever been in class, and the teacher makes a mistake on the equation they're demonstrating? Even if they are correct in their overall reasoning, you should point out that they made an error, because the truth is a very important thing. If that same teacher has a rule about giving detention to people that correct him, then he is stifling the truth in order to save face and appear to be better than he is.

It's an odd loophole in the idea of democratic liberty. Anyone can stop and look at it to see it's an obvious oppression against personal liberty, but then again all laws are. We accept the sacrifice of liberty with the trade that the laws will prevent and punish those who betray our values. In this case, 99 times out of 100 the citizen will have ease accepting it, because they believe that, generally, those that would contest it would also stand against their idea of overall liberty by association to fascism. This way of thinking isn't "right," but looking at the list of public deniers it stands true in most cases.

It will probably be abolished in time, but only when the country and its government decides it can trust each other with that level of liberty.

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