We exodus to 8ch.pl

Hello Holla Forumsacks, you might have noticed that this chan is taking it's last breaths. Don't you worry little slugger we got you covered.
You grew attached to Holla Forums ?
You would love to stay so you won't have to change names memes and culture again, but you hate Jim with a passion ?
You like 8chans features when they work ?
LOOK NO FURTHER !
8ch.pl is your place to go. And if the background of Holla Forums is not your style, just change it under the options. You can make it look just like the original, You can even give it your own design if you like to! Anything is possible !
We would love to see you on the other side user. 8ch.pl
~user

Other urls found in this thread:

8ch.net/sotc1.nfo
8ch.pl/*/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2channel
archive.is/8RU4L
8ch.pl/pol/res/9998.html
8ch.net/pol/res/993439.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Kill yourself, shill.
Until they start affecting Holla Forums directly, there is no reason to move to an even bigger honeypot

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faggot please, all that seems to mean nowadays is smug anime cunts and hentai. I'm glad Holla Forums's getting scrubbed clean. Fuck you pieces of shit.

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user if you are under 18 you have to leave

Translation of post:

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.pl has the same rules as .net you faggot are you literally retarded ?

anime faggotry doesn't belong on Holla Forums you fucking loser. fuck your retarded "culture" you whiny fuckbag.

Jim is a kike user.
Kikewheels was at least somehow to be trusted(at the start). Now it's gone completely shady with jim.

This thread will get saged by the mods and their kike underlings but anons listen to OP.
Holla Forums is dead and is infested on all levels.. 8ch.pl and enchan.xyz have sane discussion.

Reported.

GET THE FUCK OUT ALREADY

Finally the voice of reason under all this JIDF

pl allows pro-muslim and pro-liberal posts, I've been there and went back here after one day

Also, no matter how good you think your site is, shilling is always a bad thing, ALWAYS

We need to find a silver bullet
Something like nntpchan over Tor
Or something similar. A chan that isn't determined by one server, but multiple of servers that nobody in particular has control off, and nobody can easily take down.

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Okay? I'm still staying here, I don't go to Holla Forums to debate muslims and leftists

Because, not debating them is not an option.

It is when I don't come to your site

No thanks.

Also, it's annoying how you think that wanting to be with fellow-minded people instead of shills and unironic muslims/leftists is a negative thing, that's how 4chan's Holla Forums went to shit you faggot

It is even if you do. Are you literally that unsecured in your own opinion that even the existence of an opposition makes you run in fear ?
are you by any chance french ?

It went to shit through censorship and because moot took it down all the time, Jidf pls.

You're literally using the same arguments the EU politicians use when talking about taking in more of those refugees
"uhm like wow you actually want to be with your own people? xddd loser"

Yeah go ahead and make fun of actual Europeans you fucking shitskin faggot, fuck off

Codemonkey wrote up a new policy statement for Holla Forums going forwards 8ch.net/sotc1.nfo

I'm gonna give the JIDF a link to your site just to fuck with you now

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Okay, are you just gonna use reddit-tier maymays now?

Okay you just gonna continue crying without arguments ?

I just send an email to the JIDF with a link to your site, good luck you muslim-fucking faggot :^)

Thanks, now where all your brethren know I will just wait for the actual Holla Forumsacks to come

If you were an actual Holla Forumsack you wouldn't be shilling yourself

I am sorry that I try to safe you from Jim, I am really god damn sorry that I give you an alternative that you can try if you want, and I am most sorry for not being a hugbox crybaby like you.

I have seen one person complaining about being banned over nothing.

Examples or this is still nothing.

Way to out yourself shill. Solidarity is leftist language. Kill yourself

...

according to that Hitler was a leftist

Could we please stop pratting about like kikes in the desert?

I wish we could user, I am not even telling you that .pl will stay safe. I am just saying that this place isn't anymore and that's where to go next.

this is a shill thread

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Thank you. This place is fucked and when it goes we will need another shitpost office. Good job.

8ch.pl/*/
and not a single pedo was seen that day

(checked)
You are welcome user.
Also remember to stay away from merchantchan

reported for D&C

OY VEY SHUT IT DOWN SHUT IT DOOOWN
You stared onto the Jews and the Jews stared back.

Does this mean the mod team is gone? Great now instead of fags we have nothing. Fucking fags.

Fags come back plz

Shilling for your dead controlled opposition site again, (((OP)))?

Holla Forums was pretty empty before we came here now wasn't it ?

'k

You didn't have one either …

lol no

stay in wonderland then faggot

Fuck off. We're staying here.

alright lad

alright.

Not even David Duke thinks this. I'll take David's word when he says Trump is not a shill.

And you can have that opinion, I don't really care.

I know, I don't want you there. I asked for people who are Holla Forumsacks not Idiots

Keep going shill.

Thanks I will

Earn those shekels, slave

Feels good to be Jim's little pet ?

How's the weather in Tel Aviv, schlomo?

nope

You tell me, here in Germany it's great getting real warm actually.

Reminder we are most vulnerable during migrations, and it's this time where goons can insert their own mods and admins.

Fails
so when will you come with an argument ?

I'm willing to go out of limb, and claim that people supporting teh pedosechs are better persons on average than you

Well that actually is a good point, and I agree. But this shit is sinking after all.

...

...

Are you bored ?

Are you?

No, I am watching videos. I just wonder if counting my posts is entertaining.

obviously being a closed minded cuck is free

fuck your own face faggot

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You are like a kid with autism …

Says a guy with >(35).

To the guy who counts everything

Keep going goon.

How many toothpicks are on the pic user ?
I wanna know if I can take you to Vegas.

37 of them.

why are you still here then? Aren't you have somewhere else to shitpost?

8ch.ph will not survive too long, unlike our already built community
8ch.ph will not survive too long, unlike our already built community
8ch.ph will not survive too long, unlike our already built community
8ch.ph will not survive too long, unlike our already built community
8ch.ph will not survive too long, unlike our already built community
8ch.ph will not survive too long, unlike our already built community
8ch.ph will not survive too long, unlike our already built community

Fair point, you might be right, It might not make the amount of time this site made but this site dies slowly now.

It's taking its last breath? Huh. You sound like a faggot to me. Examples.

Hate Jim? I don't think that person crosses my mind.

AKA COMMIT SUDOKU AND WRECK THIS PLACE BECAUSE WE KEEP TRYING AND YOU FUCKS JUST WON'T DIE! THE TRUMP JEW THREADS DIDN'T WORK, THE BLACK DICK SPAM DIDN'T WORK. THIS BETTER FUCKING WORK!!

You guys are shit. Holla Forums is fine.

aww
what's the matter, did you failed to trick and convince people?
don't worry, better luck next time. Just like those countless previous attempts

For the meanwhile, have a pacifier for being a failure

It's more then 37, not even one of the good autists

I reply to everyone who actually makes an argument, I am not a hugbox loving kike like most of you. user do you even notice that you are like the fucking leftists you hate.

Holla Forums used to be a place of political discussion, it used to be about conspiracy theories. It wasn#t always a hugbox you feel like I am the cancer ? I am the chemo, you hugbox loving faggots had your fun long enough.

...

...

Been here for two years. So far so good.

You goons are really fucking pathetic.

Czaks please leave you kike

Well I'll be away now, got a girlfriend to meet.
all you Jim shills can rest easy now, the big evil man with the truth is away and you can get back to your koscher posts.

/thread

intlets, when will they learn

Rosie palms and her five sisters are impatient mistresses. Hurry along, faggot.

We knew who hotman and m00t were though.

Who the fuck runs 8ch.pl?

The FBI or the CIA?

Daily reminder of all the boards that were commandeered by goons:

>>>/politics/
"Sister Boards [ Third position ] [ Monarchy ] [ National Socialism ] [ Anarchism ] [ Anarcho-capitalism ] [ Libertarianism ] [ Marxism-Leninism ] [ Psychopolitics ] [ Philosophy ] [ Religion ] [ History ]"

direct links to all the dead boards that were complete failures at dividing Holla Forums:

>>>/thirdpositionist/
>>>/monarchy/
>>>/natsoc/
>>>/anarcho/
>>>/ancap/
>>>/liberty/
>>>/marx/
>>>/32/
>>>/philosophy/
>>>/rel/

After you walked by that graveyard, don't forget to check out the other attempts at dividing the community.

>>>/polpol/
>>>/pn/

Goons love webrings and circlejerks, it's a critical part of their identity politics of being able to soothe and stroke eachothers' egos.

Goons need to die.

Fuck I hate you retards so much. I can't wait for the financial system to crash so you all starve to death, and none of your descendants survive because they're equally as useless as the rest of you.

you forgot to mention her other boyfriend

8ch.pl works well, but should be more than just a mirror. It should have distinguishing features.

I will keep coming here. Maybe Jim wields the ban hammer too eagerly, but from what I have read he seems like a solid guy, as far as imageboard owners go. I haven't noticed any decline in the quality if subjects discussed or discussion these past few months.

Goons.

Bumping for visibility since my other post took over 9000 hours in notepad

He's going to hold her hand while she gets railed.

I'd pay good money to see these goon cucks bleed out.

Look at all the intlet posting on the boards, fucking terrible.

Also daily reminder /bmw/ and /cow/ are run by goons now.

The only reason the exodus actually happened is because cuckchan Holla Forums got actually completely nuked at first and then spammed to death for several days, afterwards it was basically unusable for weeks. This website here is still working and you still won't get banned for "opinions".

As long as this website is functioning like it should, i see no reason to leave and help the D&C.

Actually, Holla Forums hasn't been bugging out nearly as much as it has a month ago. I don't think another Exodus is necessary.

It's just their weekly attempt at dividing the userbase. They've tried dozens of times and failed horribly every time.

That was second exodus, you newfag.

We left because of the gamergate bans and botspam (thanks jewt! 4chan pass for bots is such a good idea!)

gonna bump this so all the fucking retarded teenagers on this board might learn something.

They all seem rather mad about Jim. What exactly did he do?

Oh wow. Somebody thinks that exodus happened because of gamergate!

Exodus of Holla Forums really happened during the time when Holla Forums was raided as fuck with stupid threads and pictures non stop, and 5 steps of cuckolding bullshit, That's why Holla Forums removed itself entirely from 4chan and happened to install its regime here.

Both by red-pilling gamergate movement and ensuring security of our own movement.

He fixed Holla Forums and now all their d&c is for naught.

You clearly don't know shit about shit and I'm not about to inform you, kike.

Seriously just fuck off and never come back.

They're goons, they're paid to come here. Idiot.

If you want to hurt them, hit them in the wallet. Shut down their EVE money laundering ring, for starters.

Nope, two exodus description is correct.

It was amazing here between the two exoduses. Slow, but amazing post quality.

Don't interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

Kill yourself.

Where'd the goon sockpuppets go?

They must be strategizing. Let's see if they try to slide this thread off the board.

a simple question. why?
Holla Forums hasn't been negatively affected in any way shape or form of this. on the contrary, we finally have a site that allows you to fucking post when you want to. the only things which were banned were plain old degenerate shit like kidfucking, because it will mean the site owners are fed-food, aka the site will stop or be used as a honeypot.
so why would anyone leave, when it's not certain anything will change negatively, we already have proof the reownership changed something positively, and when we as a group are already divided as fuck?
please, before shilling again and trying to slim the board down, act with a little more common logic, you degenerate, jew-loving fuck.

Flawless logic, op.

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By hiring more competent programmers than Firetires?

Kill yourself, shill.

definition of a hugbox


it's an anonymous imageboard faggot, no one gives a shit

Yep.

That's assuming hotwheels is still alive. We haven't seen any proof. No livestream in months.

Burningspokes iwas willing to be legally associated with this place.

Not many people with programming skills would be.

Shit, you're right. His twitter is active at least. Doesn't prove it though.

anime and weebfaggotry is a core part of chans and always will be.

Being on-topic isn't hugboxing and neither is being free from bad faith users. Spam and low quality bait threads are clear examples of bad faith posting. bad faith posting is off-topic for Holla Forums.

You're right that "fellow minded" is stupid, but shills post in bad faith by definition, and leftists, shitskins and niggers invariably follow with bad faith posting of their own.

yeah, someone knowing his login information isn't proof of life.

Fuck off shill, theres absolutely no reason to move.

They're bought and paid for by jewish interests. Goons and SJWs are just following orders by continually attacking Holla Forums

Two years of perpetual failure. I would love to see the goon suicide attrition rate.

Start?

Jim, I already miss the anti-Semitic bants from the Germanbros that had to use TOR for free speech.

The "first exodus" wasn't an exodus, but simple D&C. GG faggots who gave up and left before shit even really hit the fan. Literally the same reason why all the other chans exist. The "second exodus" were all the people who didn't leave cuckchan pol until there was literally no other option, and that is how it should be, always fight for your place until the last breath.

If not for the "second exodus" and the complete dismantling of cuckchan pol, this place would not even come close to the average of 3000 users. The majority here whould have already went back a long time ago. The users are the website, not the host, and we should always hold together as good as we can. As long as nothing big is happening and the thousands of people in our userbase are not forced to move, i won't either, and neither should anyone else, not until this website is completely over.

"first exodus" is a bunch of shitposting pedophiles crying about their "culture" since second exodus happened.

kek. kill yourself.

now I know who the kike is
endchan Holla Forums is a shithole owned and run 100% by kike mods and infested with shills. Been there and it was worse than here.

some dedicated shills here today
jidf are learning
:^)

no we're not going to your jewish honeypot

We are the music makers
And *we* are the memers of memes

What a bunch of revisionist bullshit. Stop spouting this made up garbage to damage control for the second exodus fags such as yourself. Those who left in the first exodus were the smart people who abandoned ship when they realised cuckchan was censoring speech and stifling discussion. They were the posters who valued genuine discussion, and for a while before the second exodus happened, there was plenty of it. After m00t nuked Holla Forums, all the cancerous shitposters and baiters hopped ship and the quality of discussion plummeted. It was the cancer from the second exodus cancer that ruined this board's quality. The quality has gone up since then when a lot of the cancer went back to old/pol/, but it never fully reached quality that we had pre second-exodus

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tfw you guys are the greatest and I love it here. I used to do it for the lulz. Now I do it because it's the right thing to do.

TO THE .PL BO WHO I KNOW IS IN THIS THREAD

This is the shit that turns people away. Two threads on the front page are 1) Donald trump is a Jew lelelelelele and 2) a pro-homosexuality thread

What in the absolute fuck are you doing

nice try faggot

but its not gonna work

oh you mean greyface, a goon who took his name from the goon bible, Principia Discordia?

That .pl BO?

or how about Czaks, who is a goon enabler at best?

that implies they aren't posting the exact same sentences every time they try it, and when someone deviates from what they predicted to be the reaction, they would actually counterargue instead of trying to call us shills for not going with their d&c shite


i have to actually agree with user on this one. the first few days after people realized Holla Forums was getting censored, Holla Forums in general was pretty civilized and much like the old 4chan.
not that that shit matters.
our home is being fucked up, once again, and unless we aim to work together and get this petty bickering out of the way, we will get extinct. and not even exagerating: Holla Forums is actively being divided by shills/trolls, and you fuckers are doing their work for free. it's not important if there was one or two exodusses, it's important that we stand together against this common thread. use your damn brains.

Very convincing shil-I mean Holla Forumsack we've got here.

Pretty sure 8ch.pl was exposed as a goon ruse

?

My post was criticizing .pl. I asked greyface or w/e his name is what he would do about "Donald trump is a Jew lelele" threads and he said they would get deleted, but there's one sitting on the front page

so, where is your proof of your claim? you know, that thing called "evidence". where the fuck is it, you lying sack of shit? do you honestly expect us to believe you because you used the epic maymay arrow? are you this dense?

it's just teenagers falling for it.

Most oldfags hid this thread the second it was made, but I'm posting because I know how many fucking retarded teenagers we have here.

I ain't going anywhere. Holla Forums may not be perfect but it's the best option by far.

you have absolutely no proof at all that greyface is a goon. All you have is your baseless assertion

Do you think that if you repeat the same claim over and over again and poison the well, that you will somehow suddenly be right?

if greyface turns out to be a goon, how might that manifest?

What would be different? I'm guessing we'd get ideological border creep out the wazoo.

Well put. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I know it's obvious that the vast majority of our members know this, but it's important that more than only a handful actually say it.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's most likely a duck.

Kill yourself, goon.

They'd try to be "fair and balanced" until the community migrates over entirely, then they'd crack down and enable shilling.

It's the same tired playbook. They'd push identity politics, tripfags and namefags would proliferate, "alt-right" would get pushed, and the community would be eternally divided and conquered with all the usual jewish tactics.

In my opinion it is the other way around. A little bit of cancer is needed, otherwise the board will stagnate in its "quality" with special snowflakes. You always need a few idiots, uneducated people or someone who thinks completely different, they are like fuel that most of the time start conversations from a beginners or a different viewpoint, and give perfect opportunities to create really good debates, those threads were often used to redpill newfags back then. That is why i also think that Holla Forums was a mistake, because this board afterwards became 80% filled with people who most of the time simply agree with each other.
The only thing bad for a board are shills or an abysmal amount of newfags who can shift the entire board.

If you only want a specific type of person on this board, then it will become nothing more than a circlejerk.

oh, they'd also be fixated on rules and the specific implementation. expect a shitload of rules lawyering and "well our hands are tied, dems the rules goyim"

they probably wouldn't ban very much, but they would absolutely enable the shills under "freeze peach"

Can anyone transcribe what is happening in idiot please?
From what I can gather Hotwheels is dead and people are leaving because Jim has taken over(even though he already did a few months ago).
But people are saying that those who are leaving are leaving because the site is terribly coded(like the past year)?
So my question is why are people truly leaving?
Is Jim or Ron(Jim's son?) untrustworthy and if so why?
If they are leaving because the site is terribly coded then why are they only leaving now?

mods should probably ban these goon retards from now on. They'll run out of IPs eventually.


Hotwheels handed the site over to Jim and Ron entirely.

Goons are trying to D&C as usual.

Use a VPN as usual and you'll be fine.

Show me a single bit of proof that he encouraged anti-trump shilling. I haven't seen anything at all.

And he also made anti-jew anti-immigrant propaganda using the same name. How is this goon behaviour? I was lurking that thread too, retard.

I only remember him answering questions & concerns anons had about the site, but never actually pushing people to leave like it was the end of Holla Forums. You seem to hate the idea of a bunkerchan to go to if this place fails. Having a backup base of operations is a good idea. Only idiots like yourself seem to think this is a bad idea.

Is anyone you disagree with a goon?

so it's like 8ch.net but worse

Except nowhere did I say that everyone had the same opinions back during the first exodus. There was PLENTY of debate and good discussion of alternative viewpoints. We don't need shit quality and autistic shitposters to keep discussion and debate lively and of a high quality.

I'm not ready to migrate yet, but I'm preparing to jump ship if something happens to Holla Forums and we get shoah'd. Jim is definitely a shady character who goes out of his way to appear normal (see >>>/jim/ if you want to know what I mean). He's ex-US Military and is now the chairman of a company called NT Tech. He bought our servers a while back when he "struck a deal" with FlamingSpokes and I guarantee you this was his plan all along. He is going to try and reshape the demographic of this website to turn a profit. So if Holla Forums becomes an issue to making a profit, then into the trash we go.


Jim assumed full administration of 2channel from Hiroyuki back in 2014 when their domain got repossessed. He has plenty of experience with moderation he was just flexing his muscles and seeing what he could do. If his plans for this place are anything like how he runs 2channel then you can expect him to try and make the demographic of Holla Forums more accessible to normies so he can bring in more people and flood the site with ads (and perhaps even datamining operations).

/operate/ now requires captcha verification on a per-post basis and has wordfilters. The latter is claimed to be used to stop the spamming faggots from Holla Forums that are attempting to shit everything up after leaving, but the former is filtering links to alternate chans (yes I know most of them are crap, but this place may be no better soon). Perhaps this is just a false alarm to slow down the spam, but I would not be surprised if we see site-wide implementation within the coming weeks.

Things are not looking good, and if my suspicions are correct this place will become just like cuckchan so he can bring in a larger userbase and anything that prevents him from doing that, including the current users, may be purged as a necessary sacrifice to turn a profit. His policy towards pedoshit is based as fuck and I'm glad to see those niggers go, but if we become a hindrance to expanding the userbase he'll probably take measures to purge us while still acting like he doesn't know what he is doing. I'm going to stick around for now because there is no reason to jump the gun on this (and all the alternates seem to be filled with goons or more irc faggotry), but things are not looking good.

Source on pics: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2channel
archived version: archive.is/8RU4L

There is no one leaving. If people were leaving .pl would have more than 4 pph (fucking kek)

I don't necessarily believe its goons or int or etc; but it IS a user desperately begging people to use his(?) dead site.

here come dat goi!!!

OP, stop shilling 8ch.pl while this site is still working fine. Jim hasn't done anything to stifle our discussion yet, so there's no reason to pack up and leave. I'm the owner of .pl/pol/ and I think it should be used as a bunker site if this place goes to shit, not as a tool to divide our userbase.

sage

fuck you

I guess I didn't get the memo.

I'll leave when I feel like, not when some cancerboy tells me so.

Keep shilling

You do realize once normalfags start making their way here we're next on the chopping block don't you?

ha nope

hey soviet nigger.. fuck off.

No.

I know, read the whole post.

Why the fuck would normalfgs come here? The only way that would happen is if Holla Forums becomes so profoundly popular and mainstream that all the hip cool youth do it. And if fascism and holocaust revisionism becomes hip and cool, we don't need Holla Forums because we've won.

As nobody seemed to notice, I will repeat my idea in this thread.

Let's get ready for an exodus, but let's not actually move for the time being. It's too early to really decide whether or not Jim will be a bad admin, we'll have to see how he fares in the long run.

But if he proves to be shit, it would be good to have one, single alternative that we can move to, so that we do not divide our userbase too much.

Let's make ourself an escape route if things get too dangerous.

That's the opinion of most users. Most of the fags shilling one way or the other are either shilling for their "friend's" website that they met in the irc yesterday or idiots that aren't capable of civilized conversation.

The biggest issue at hand is that if things go south due to Jim's opportunism and lack of caring about the actual userbase and if we do move where will we move to? Almost all the alternative websites seem to have issues.

Why are people leaving again? Is this just a pedo exodus with butthurt pedos mad because their shit's getting purged?

See


If Holla Forums becomes too triggering for the userbase that Jim will try to bring in he may try to purge us. Nobody is leaving yet, just on stand-by. The pedos being butmad is hilarious, but we might be next.

Agreed, although technically people can just stay here while keeping .pl open in another tab just to see how things are shaping up there.

Stage 3: Bargaining

If you fail to see through a ruse this obvious, perhaps it is for the best if you leave.

Frankly, I'm hoping they fail spectacularly enough that they finally give up.

You statists disgust me. The rest of you are alright

I posted a picture with him and his dog a couple days ago.
>>>/jim/2198

Not going to happen. I lurk this board all the time.

Thanks for clearing stuff up for us, Jim.

We'll still keep our eyes on you, though.

Jim, why haven't you shared your uncensored Jap porn with 8ch? You must have a metric ton of it… come on man, you have this epic backstory and yet you post dog pictures.

Hey Jim, would you consider doing a livestream at some point in the near future so we can clear some things up? Everyone is really tense right now because nobody is sure we can trust you or not.

Kek, you got me shill. I'll bite.
Why should I go to a extremely low-energy board, which even at its height, had less than 200-100 posts per hour, and was mostly made up of lurkers and bots. Not only that, but things have recovered much more now. postings quite close to the highest parts of 2016, and it will only further recover once shilled anons come back once they realized they were targeted by a large D&C job to drive people away from Holla Forums. Also, it does not fucking bode well to your intentions that after a recovery time which much of the worse issues following the fall of infinity next were fixed AND a slow recovery is imminent, you pop up and start praising and (((winking))) a mysterious imageboard that suddenly popped up, with the official owner being a very shifty IRC fag. Also, you have an EXTREMELY big number of posts in this thread. It's very clear that you are a shill, faggot, if not, then fucking explain WHY you are doing this!

You shouldn't. Don't listen to the faggot OP. I'm the owner of the .pl/pol/ board and I think we should stay here unless something incriminating happens.

8ch.pl is a jewish honeypot.

Scrolling through it, and a lot of pro israel crap.
8ch.pl/pol/res/9998.html

user, please.

The pinned post is the opposite of what you are saying. Nice divide and conquer trick.

8ch.net/pol/res/993439.html

sage

Who owns Holla Forumsand?

on .pl? I do.

checking out if this is the place

He can't even erase metadata much less run a website.

This site is beyond compromise and jim only knows about the threats he allows. I hate to think about the compromises nobody knows about yet.