IT'S HAPPENING

Jimmy "commisar comedian" Dore

So all it takes for Holla Forums to lose its shit is for a market "socialist" to be interviewed by a rogue liberal? lmao

Wolff isn't a market socialist, he's an American Marxist

Coops aren't socialism.

Correct, there are many kinds of cooperatives, one needs to be more specific. Worker cooperatives, however, are.

Do you ever get tired of making yourself look stupid with these proudly ignorant posts?

No, they aren't. Read Marx.

I wasn't aware that Marx invented socialism.

dude just fuck off already and read a book

I think Wolff just sees Co Ops as preferable.

You first. Marx and Engels both thought cooperatives were important.

True, but they naturally develop into socialism due to the tendency towards monopoly and automation.

He didn't, but his theoretical contribution remains the most thorough there is. You would know if you actually payed attention and didn't limit yourself to babby-tier YouTube videos.

There is a difference between thinking coops are important and arguably preferable, and claiming they're the "solution" to capitalism or "socialist".

holy fucking mental gymnastics.

But they aren't. They can be a good thing, of course, but there's nothing intrinsically "socialist" about them. Bismarck built the first welfare state, and he sure as hell was not a socialist.

Welfare state is not democratic control of the means of production. Worker cooperatives are.

People who support a coops-based economy as the supposed "alternative" to capitalism are de facto capitalism supporters.

Socialism involves democratic control of the means of production but democratic control of the means of production alone does not make socialism.

Only if there are only co-ops in the market. And if you have the power to suppress all economic activity that is not co-ops, you might as well centrally plan your economy anyway and be done with the travesty of markets.

So what makes socialism then?Do we have to go at it all or nothing? We gotta just have revolution and burn it all to the ground in one fell swoop?

Actually, it does. You see user, there are many different ways in which one can organize distribution. Unfortunately, those have nothing to do with the fundamental definition of socialism. Are markets exceedingly inefficient and is competition a deleterious force? Probably. Unfortunately "socialism" is a relationship within production and does not proscribe the presence or absence of a market.

He's explicitly anti-capitalist. He said it time and time again. He directly opposes markets. Your are a mentally ill contrarian.

No, it doesn't. Any economic mode of production relying on commodity production can only be capitalist. Exploitation occurs in capitalism not (just) because of bourgeois parasitism but also because of the law of value. Having coops doesn't change any of that, it merely shifts the burden of managing exploitation from managers to the workers themselves.

Ah, well! If he said it, then, it must be true.

yes, actually. what's not clicking for you? do you think co-ops is some kind of far-right counterrevolutionary act?
I'm worried about your mental health user.

Time and again I have heard leftcoms make this specious argument that workers can somehow exploit themselves and I have never seen it substantiated.

He's right actually. Where he's wrong is assuming Wolff supports commodity production (he doesn't).

Mondragón — which Wolff admire so much — was founded by a Catholic priest in Francoist Spain and received support from the Fascist-inspired Falangists precisely because the co-operative model of business operation tended to dissimulate class distinctions, and anything that swept class struggle under the rug was welcomed by these ardent class-collaborationists. Food for thought. :^)

a market economy where goods are produced to be sold, imposes a certain logic or "laws" that people adhere to without being conscious of it. a company, in order to compete and not go broke, has to constantly reinvest its revenues in raw material, expansion of production, new technologies … otherwise it would just shut down. that surplus comes from the workers getting compensated less of the value that their commodities that they produce are worth (since exchange happens between commodities of equal worth).
this "logic" doesn't stem from the bourgeois consciously deciding to exploit the workers, Marx, after all, emphasized that the bourgeois are the personification of Capital. this social relation stems from a mode of production where goods are produced for exchange (commodity production). so, even the workers, have, at the end of the day, to extract that surplus by compensating themselves less than the worth of their products, in order to have capital to reinvest, expand production, new labour and technology and so on. that's something they have to do, otherwise they're unable to compete and are then out of business.

I misused some words but the general idea is coherent I hope

Workers can exploit themselves because exploitation is not (just) the result of a parasitic class exerting its domination but because of the very laws that govern the capitalist mode of production. The bourgeoisie are mere stewards of capital, getting rid of them wouldn't change anything substantial about how capitalism operates — if anything, it would just "streamline" the process by getting rid of the middleman.

A coops-based economy would be a slightly more democratic version of capitalism, not socialism.

ALL OF THIS SHIT IS ANSWERED IN THESE THREADS COME FIGHT ME

>>2265685

>>2272259

if you are going to bitch out of the big meaty nuanced threads, then come to these offshoot threads and talk smack, you are a pussy and you should throw down

usefulidiots.bezmenov

You basically admit co-ops aren't socialism in this thread, I don't know what you get so worked up for.

I don't admit it, I shout it out loud and proud. On at least three occasions, keep reading

thats a guy

Guys can't be cuties?

Wolff is a boring socialist.
I don't know if he knows he's shit or not, what I know that that even if he was 10/10 in theory without carisma you ain't gonna do shit.
There is nothing wrong in causing agitation. Wolff make socialism and revolution sound boring af.

We fucking did it, seriusely it was Holla Forums what achieved this

bunch of fucking savages

You know how I know you're an anarkiddie lifestylist?

And Wolff never says that co-ops are socialism, he's just pushing strongly for them to give workers more power

I'm a ☭TANKIE☭.

Cooperatives are not as efficient as private businesses. If I'm going to have capitalism, I'd like that kind of capitalism that provides the best. There is also no revolutionary change through co-ops. A revolution must be political.

Can you, please, define efficient?

Pretty sure this is Anzu

As in: Competitive. Even Mondragon cracks down on the whole worker ownership thing to be more efficient.

co-operatives fail less than private businesses and provide higher wages and more benefits. You are saying you want the capitalism without these things? When you say efficient, what you really mean is "dont make as much profit" which would be fucking obvious if you weren't a retard.

A FUCKING A TANK

I unironically can't help but smile at this meme. Stalin was truly the real deal. He didn't know friends and family when it came to his convictions.

"Efficiency" in a capitalist system is a meme.

The only thing a socialist should be concerned about is the basic contradiction: does this help labor and hurt capital, or does it help capital and hurt labor? Cooperatives do the former, so they should be supported (again, critically, of course).

Bullshit, they aren't as competitive in a market because of the extremely reduced surplus theft but they aren't less efficient in actual production

Looks like pipthefriendlyalien

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YES
Let us toast in victory tonight comrades

Hell yah we did m8

Why is he called this anyways? I keep reading this and passing it off as celeb trite.

just memes built around us wanting to turn jimmy red to influence his audience. he's slowly getting there, even reading wage labour and capital.

what? when/

American Marxist is an oxymoron, like American Cheese

Its the best us murican marxists can hope for

I believe muke sent him a couple books

Even after the revolution, market socialism would be an excellent NEP style tool to ease the transition. It would allow the economy to function while the political situation stabilizes enough for industry to be fully socialized on the worker’s terms.

Why? With all the chaos and stress and challenge of a revolution, why add the extra burden of trying to centralize industry and plan the economy? The goal is to break the power of the bourgeoisie, market socialism does that. Once it’s broken you can put off the implementation of a planned economy if necessary. Furthermore the transition from capitalism to market socialism is less extreme, meaning that the damage to the economy would be lesser. Co-ops could be socialized gradually in a way that doesn’t pressure or force workers to relinquish their rights and doesn’t lead to economic chaos.

fucking Muke? He'll kill Jimmy's Channel if he makes into a whiny Trot.

M8 read Marx yourself. Co-Ops are appreciated by both Marx and Engels to a limited extent and for good reason. If the workers are going to seize their workplaces they'll need some practice in managing them. It's just like unions in this way. Unions aren't socialism and no one would call them that but unions are important for us to get to socialism.

Not that user but co-ops are antithetical to Marx's socialism as a mode of production that seeks to abolish the law of value, that is different from the "seize the means" socialism meme, if you're only about seizing the means of production then sure, but co-ops are still restrained by the SNLT in their production, it's even worse if you're a yugoslaviaboo who wants to add in "Markets" to the mix, that would only perpetuate the law of value in the economy until it reverts back to capitalism.

be prepared for a bunch of thumbs down and idiotic comments by jimmy dore's numerous conservative watchers

Man the point of Wolffy promoting coops is to spread the idea that socialism is about democratizing our society and not the 100 gorillion.
Wolff is not an idiot, he knows quite well that coops are not even close to what socialism is, but he also realize that you wn't get anywhere by LARPing as a bolshevik in the US (or Europe)

So when is this goin down? Or did I already miss it?

I can't see anything on youtube channel, so I guess he was on one of his live shows and will upload it in a few days.

(not the same user)
This actually makes a lot of sense.

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wow

It's habbending

youtube.com/watch?v=zHZIVrwOS7Y