How can some of you be unironic socialists even after every single socialist nation has crashed and burned miserably, is in the process of doing so, or had to extremely pervert its foundations in order to survive? I live in a part of America that has a lot of Eastern bloc migration from former USSR, Poland, Albania, Bulgaria, etc and every single person I've talked to - without fail - described how shitty, depressing, and depraved their lives were under the socialist model.
I really cannot fathom it. At least fascists have had tangible periods of success in history (Spain, pre-war Italy, arguably Portugal and Chile, etc) but as I mentioned, literally every socialist nation to exist or have existed is a total fucking dump. Why do you still follow this ideology then when it's clearly unviable? Western comfort and naivete? Boredom? Autism?
get yo ass outa here with your bullshit loaded question you don't wanna learn shit son lmfao go read a book if you really want to inform yoself also you ain't never talked to noone from former east bloc countries, you just makin that shit up
The Marshal plan. The Soviets just had 25 million of them die in world war 2, had to spend a shit ton of money on war, had a lot of shit destroyed, etc.
I'm from Boston.
K, so what about non-USSR socialist nations that still turned out to be shitholes?
Lol. I asked this same question to a kid in the S.A. chapter at my school and it was crickets as well.
Cuba did pretty well unironically, pic related tbh. China was cool for a while but after Mao's death enlisted capitalism except the state intervenes a lot. The intervention usually isn't for the welfare of the citizens and is always undemocratic and shit. North Korea is Socialism, but instead of it being Socialist in nature it's just because daddy Un says so. A country that has the most similar GDP is fuckin Rwanda and the people are doing a lot better than them especially with western embargo and sanctions. Some doc about how North Korea isn't that bad: vngiapaganda.wordpress.com/pro-dprk-propaganda/
Fun fact: The first cellphone was invented by a soviet! If you hate Capitalism so much, why do you OWN A PHONE YOU HIP-OH-CRIT!!!!
Ok, I’m from Lowell MA. I don’t see a particularly high level of eastern bloc immigrants in the area. Also I’ve talked to many people from Yugoslavia that claimed to love their market socialism. Nice anecdotes though.
The only reason Russians are nostalgic about Soviet times, if they are, is because the USSR was in a domineering position relative to its subordinate nations and was, as you said, competing with the US. Russia has still been ruled by semi-dictators and oligarchs since independence.
Give Russians a real taste of western freedoms and lifestyle and their mentalities will become identical to other east-europeans who high tailed the fuck out of their influence and into the EU/NATO/etc.
Undoubtedly, but it's not even comparable to ex-socialist nations. The USA has one of the highest gdp per capitas in the world, same goes for average median household income, HDI, etc. Meanwhile the average Russian in the 1980s was waiting in line for bread lol.
you asked 20 questions that are difficult to explain and some people even answered your bullshit (I don't know why, you should feel spoiled that people are willing to put up with you) why did Shakespeare include all the characters that he did in Richard III? that's the type of question you're asking, nobody feels like answering.
Because Yugoslavia was propped up by Western and international loans since it was anti-Soviet. Yugoslav economy by the end was extremely indebted and unsustainable. Yugoslavia was basically capitalist-lite and an open society, nothing like her neighbors.
Maybe Cuba did well relatively, but is having an economy similar to some of the poorer countries in Europe that literally went through wars, regime collapses, genocide, etc like Bosnia really successful? Especially with all the political and social repression? If this is the absolute peak of the socialist model, you won't be convincing many people.
Nice meme but total bullshit, but I’m sure any country would experience the same if the global capitalist system was sanctioning you into oblivion How is that relevant. It was socialist before its collapse. It is capitalist after. Nice meme but completely unprovable. Those who moved did so because they wanted to. Those that stayed did not. How can u say somebody who stayed would have been happier? That’s complete conjecture and fucking pointless
They're difficult to explain because there is no explanation. Socialism is a meme ideology that miserably failed across the board in dozens of countries in multiple continents. The flag you're sporting now is a perfect example of an extremely strict, by-the-book socialist nation that emerged in 1991 as the most malnourished and poor country in Europe.
Every single socialist country, even dumpsterfires like Ceaușescu's Romania, were better, more successful and provided better living standards for their citizens than capitalist countries with the same level of economic development.
I'd like a source for that. You do realize Albania at that time was the most isolated country on earth, right? Something the DPRK is today.
What a revelation, OP.
i just copied it from OP lmao
Kek, yeah, maybe if you compare them to random 3rd world shitholes in Africa.
pic related, years after the fall. Compare Albanian gdp and gdp per capita in '91, and HDI if the figures are there, to today. It's night and day. Even if Albania was North Korea style-isolationist, figures are similar but not as extreme for countries like Bulgaria.
Migration caused by the socialist system, yes. Thanks for posting that map too, even more evidence. Not even industrious Germans can escape the failure that is socialism.
lol no Ever heard of The Paris Commune? It was the first Socialist semi-nation and worked really really really well. Also was a complete democracy, no dictatorship.
many of the first Capitalist models (Napoleonic france, British free market cities, etc.) also fell, and crashed, and burned. The first real alternative to the current feudalism had failed. The criticisms then were almost the exact same as modern criticisms of Socialism. "Dictators came out of the revolution and abused power!" "France (Soviets) and it's allies suffered!" It will never work on the first try(s).
To be fair, the eastern bloc did kinda suck ass. But as said, there's more to it than meets the eye. It's no accident that every porky wants you to eat up the communism failed because of muh incentives narrative.
The reality is that while the eastern bloc/USSR had serious issues, their struggles aren't necessarily an indictment of socialism, and the burden is on you to prove otherwise. The USSR was set up and governed by communists attempting to implement communism, but that doesn't mean that the end result had to be communism itself. I would contend that more complicating factors, such as less developed productive forces, foreign aggression, flawed party structure, etc. led to the degeneration and ultimate dissolution of the union.
Another important point that was made in another thread about the GDR is that the eastern bloc was actually doing ok considering the high level of destruction it suffered in WWII and lack of a Marshall Plan, and only fell behind in the late 60's and 70's due to their inability to adapt to finance capital, cybernetics, and outdated planning mechanisms.
You should stop being pic related and lurk moar
I was born in Cuba and know the truth first hand. Cuba did so well that people would risk life and limb to GTFO.
At its most prosperous it was still a totalitarian nightmare where you could not say anything bad about the gov or of the people in the neighborhood committees that were the govs eyes and ears, or you would lose your job, be socially ostracized, get sent to prison, or just plain old killed.
At its least prosperous you couldn't find a dog or a cat anywhere, because they had been eaten by the starving population.
Cuba is what you're presenting as a 'success'?
No, I said compare them with countries with similar economic development. Such as, comparing Cuba to Haiti, or the USSR with modern Russia. You do realize that socialist revolutions only happened in poor-ass backwaters, right? In every single case, socialism lifted them out of poverty and created a modern, industrial society with the typical socialist perks, such as free education, healthcare, no unemployment, restricted work day, etc.
Bulgaria was never really socialist though, they just had a lukewarm socialist government. Considering that Albania was totally isolated the malnutrition rate seems better compared to countries on that map which weren't isolated. What would you have done? In their situation? Are you implying they didn't allocate all the food they had appropriately?
what did he mean by this?
Right now eastern europe is going anti europe because they want to reject this bullshit. Because that's what it is. Bullshit. No economical or political power, just a overpriced phone and depression. Fuck you and your bullshit. Eastern europe is too pure for your filth
you actually need to go to reddit you colossal faggot
Damn I'm gonna use this one next time I'm in the pub telling some bullshit story about my life in north korea to some blonde. Thanks m8
anecdotes are not data
I lived it, you colossal twat. Real world experience > your stupid deluded larping.
My father almost starved because he was ostracized by the community and couldn't find a job to support himself because my mom and my brothers left the country during the Mariel boatlift. My mother's favorite anecdote is being reprimanded by one of the neighborhood committee leaders because they saw her throwing away rice during some sort of lunch function. The rice had maggots, that's why she threw it away. The committee person said she was being a bad influence.
Because socialism is the only hope to protect the country from cancerous americanism. The communist party will remove us from NATO and EU.
I don't know what you thought the second pic was, but it was a map of support for Die Linke, the reformed Socialist Unity Party of Germany.
Yeah, buddy. I don't exist. No one ever tried to leave Cuba eitherm because it's a worker's paradise.
I don't give a fuck about your mother you dumb nigger. Cuba empirically benefitted from socialism.
The data says socialism sucks.
The data shows capitalism sucks more though. No one said socialism is perfect, but it is the best system we have.
Did you take the Evolaids pill?
I just have anecdotes. This is true. I'm not going to look for data telling me why socialism sucks. I already have lived the reason..
the kid probably saw your retarded smug face and concluded that you're not interested in an answer, you're only interested in owning da libtardz kek
Well my parents and grandparents grew up and lived in the eastern bloc, they all reminisce for it and have no complaints against it. Moreover this view is shared by a majority of people in ex-eastern bloc countries.
ok great, now you can get the fuck off this board
No KGB in Cuba. Father was small time revolutionary though. Wer'e from Santiago where the revolution started.
Yeah, the Cubans are all their cats and dogs, that's why Havana has a stray problem.
But I actually am laughing you off, because you came here expecting us to give a rats ass about your family's fee-fees without providing any data or making any arguments. That is a pretty funny premise. Now fuck off you mongrel retard
I was making fun of the obvious American pretending to be from a Soviet family.
That's 2016 you retarded child. Cuba is pretty well off today (comparatively).
The most recent period of scarcity in Cuba was during the 90's after the USSR fell. But almost every decade before that there have been periods of scarcity.
I don't care if you give a rat's ass about my posts. Stop replying.
Met a Yugoslav woman here in aus. She fucking loved her country and blames it's eventual collapse on the west.
You make a good point. I'll start saging until OP replies to and/or someone gets the thread quality back.
Yeah, being blockaded by the US (and then being given such a draconian embargo that effectively acts as all but an outright blockade) sucks.
Tell me, what country do you live in now? It couldn't be the very country that was complicit in starving the Cuban people, could it?
Cuba is doing better than basically all their neighbours while under US embargo.
It played both major powers off each other Yugoslavia operating under the assumptions of the Cold War was as pro west as it was pro soviet