A Question About Changing Languages To Challenge Modern Conception of Things

Before you jump on me on IDPOL IDPOL IDPOL IDPOL, this is much more about getting rid of it then participating it.

Would it be idpol to change the nature of language in Socialism (or realistically communism) so that there are no gendered nouns, pronouns adjectives, classifier, etc?

My reasoning is not that of some liberal "sjw", but my question is, since there's so much animosity between the sexes in a working environment (or worse as the past few weeks have shown us), why not get rid of the context and subtext of sex altogether in a communal environment where everyone is in the work place? This isn't changing biology, in fact I think it's more like changing how we perceive each other as human beings in such a social state. Where we speak not as men or as women, but as cogs in an all encompassing and grander machine. That we're in this together as workers.

What else do you think, (let's make up a hypothetical language, for hypothetical time) would be good additions or subtractions from past languages that fit into a socialist environment? After all, you control the language of a people, you erase certain ideas that's negative to the overall cause. Reorganize language(s) into something new, that it challenges the status quo by alienating people from older languages and capitalism.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Let you in on a little secret: for most of the posters here complaining about "idpol", it's just an excuse for them to propagate actually reactionary views while denying the essential historical role of capitalism in dissolving traditional identities.

This is true unfortunately, talking about anything related to the No No words has been increasingly frowned upon, even if said poster's intent might not be what they thought it would be.

I would argue that women in the workplace naturally disrupt the natural order of things, especially in traditionally male-dominated environments. Sure, referring to people in jobs that have always been egalitarian or female-dominated, referring to everyone indistinctly might be completely fine, but in places where men dominate the work place normally, it just doesn't make any sense. Let me explain this in simple terms; men in these areas typically only focus on work. There isn't much competition, maybe some guys have problems with someone else, but overall they are fine with eachother. Let's add women to this equation - what happens now? Men are on edge. They look at the new girl in the work place, someone finds her attractive, and suddenly everyone's mindset changes. They think "hey, i need to be trying my best to impress this girl!" or "she's going to hate me for sure, i'm lazy as fuck!". They then look at eachother, and understand that they are all now going to try to impress her. This also means something else. Competition. They're suddenly at eachother's throats trying to score. Say what you want about forcing gender equality here, but that competition just isn't healthy, and as long as men act like that around women, then there will always be unnecessary competition, centered around gender, in the workplace.

I say we eliminate language altogether.

Fuck off. Jesus fucking christ. This is not even a problem. Grow a fucking pair

See, what I just posted wasn't idpol. This is idpol.

You're buying into exactly what I said is problem, and the solution is to change gendered language as we know it, so you don't end up with a steaming pile of poopy identity politics like the post you just made.

You're right, it isn't a problem. It's a discussion.

As long as men act like fucking retards to garner the attention of womyn, there isn't going to be anything like you want in the workplace.

Forcing a change of words is 1984 tier.
I do not even understand this reasoning we should abolish all languages, culture, races (somehow), cusine. For what? So people don't get angry? This is more authoritarian than putting them in the gulag. Put them in a gulag/prison/death camp or just deport them to a non socialist country. Plus language existed way before capitalism. Capitalist language is the angonification of the vocabulary. The real anti capitalist way would be the opposite direction. Taking away the anglo words that are at the universal words

I read your post, I just replied to the wrong one. And it's so full of stereotypes that fall flat through world history that your hypothetical "office job" probably would benefit from a language where gender is a non issue. I criticized you because you aren't even willing to entertain the notion of a language without the presence of masculine or feminine descriptions, in order to unite the work place.

And you just gave me some fatalistic shtick about human nature.

Go the fuck back to reddit with this bullshit patetic loser. What? Should we abolish me wanting to have sex too?
Never come back here again piece of shit

Is it really 1984? Words come and go all the time, entire languages split or changed or adopted, dialects all over the fucking place. Forgotten words do exist for the sake of convenience.

I never said that, I said simply create a new one for said hypothetical society. Napoleon changed the entire fucking calendar of the year, I don't see how this wouldn't be eventually possible.


I never said Capitalist language and I would like you to explain further on that. I'm talking a different language altogether that can be created, not necessarily changing a new one. Though, like I said, it's not as if that doesn't happen.

isn't womyn TERFspeak?

1984 is a utopia, cuck

read stirner
"If the point is to have myself understood and to make communications, then assuredly I can make use only of human means, which are at my command because I am at the same time man. And really I have thoughts only as man; as I, I am at the same time thoughtless. He who cannot get rid of a thought is so far only man, is a thrall of language, this human institution, this treasury of human thoughts. Language or “the word” tyrannizes hardest over us, because it brings up against us a whole army of fixed ideas. Just observe yourself in the act of reflection, right now, and you will find how you make progress only by becoming thoughtless and speechless every moment. You are not thoughtless and speechless merely in (say) sleep, but even in the deepest reflection; yes, precisely then most so. And only by this thoughtlessness, this unrecognized “freedom of thought” or freedom from the thought, are you your own. Only from it do you arrive at putting language to use as your property."

For PC sake (because it's literally what it is) changing words is stupid. And you didn't propose with to abolish language but that's what's gonna happen if you play the PC game. The problem on the work place comes from the power structure not from the prouns. Even if it comes from the prouns the solution is not abolishing them. Differences must be kept, not abolished. The true revolution is to live respectfully in those differences/disagreements.
Anglophonification is intellectual and cultural imperialism, black friday was shilled so much in my country this year that everyne knows what it is. This is bad, not gender prouns.

Also the first poster says thst people screeching idpol are sociall.y conservative that deny the historical role of capitalism in detroying those value. The first is totally true, i'm not gonna deny that I'm social.ly conservative, but the second statment is totally false. I reconize the role and I think that mild soci.al conservativism and communism are the only solution to make the world a interesting place to live in while the one who don't belive in these values are the one who are doing a favor to the neo-liberal establishment.
So I'm all for enforcing language, even traditional language (if it's not totally impractical like in italy), differences and "trigger words" even if they sound racist, sexist ecc. Plus this womyn bullshit is totally retarded because the "man" part is not referred to gender other wise women can't be homosexual.
What about the word homosexual? What we change that in? There you with 70 different gender bullshit.
Remove liberal values and liberal civil freedom, they are nothing compared to economic and political freedom and is not only influced by the capitalist mind set but by the american mindset.
Read samir amin, the liberal virus

TIL that nebulous "values" are the active agents of history, rather than concrete economic systems.
Get out of here with this workerist bullshit. It isn't a substitute for reading theory.

Fuck you. I'm not the guy you replied to, but seriously. Theory doesn't tell us what values the people want instituted in their government. Don't act like their thoughts are not important faggot

Theory tells us that electoral democracy is a phenomenon limited to the capitalist epoch, and that it will die with it - there will be no 'government' through which values will be 'instituted'.
Literally an opportunist.

...

That's a really naive conception of language things like sexual harrasment have everything to do with power and little to do with language. Besides, workers should have more control over their working environment instead of becoming cogs in a machine. Muh anti anti idpol can also be used as a boogeyman and an excuse to promote half baked social engineering schemes.

Also, no, I don't care about the feelz of most proles. Neither did Marx. Most proles, like most people, are stupid.

I never said i believed in democracy. I, same as you, think most people are stupid. That should not always be the case, everyone should use their brain to the fullest extent possible, but that is an issue for later. I believe in values- i believe in what the people believe. Funny that you called me opportunist, at the slightest chance you would surely become a dictator yourself. I simply want a better future, but people like you are the reason it isn't happening yet.

...

Oh shit!
a gift from Uncle Holla Forums

Let's keep it going
>>>/mai/

FUCKING HELL IT'S ALREADY BACK, GO TO /a/

>>>/imperium/

Those count as a form of dubs.

How do you do fellow working class :^)

I claim this planet destroyer for Juan Posadas

you wasted it.

I think giving Holla Forums access to a Planet Killer was a mistake.

go to fur

Holla Forums again

Rolling for >>>Holla Forums

you are on Holla Forums fuck boi

send it to Holla Forums

Keep rolling

WHAT THE FUG STOP WASTING

Checked.

you nigger.

it's going to get to 333 and we're going to fucking die aren't we

Explosion?

we'll see won't we.

GIVE ME DEATH

Reroll!

BLOOD FOR BLOOD GOD

boom

Nuke this shitty board.

Rolling for /benis/

BLOOD

Checked.

YES

...

Rest in piss.

Hey Holla Forums! Say hello to Reddit for me, it being your home and all.

t. r/the_donald

Well guess that means Holla Forums has been destroyed.
Weapon will disappear for a bit before feasting on another board.

Embarrassing

proof?

Destroyed metaphorically.

And you people say you're not abstract or idealist. Identities as genders, races, sexes, etc. exist because there are actual real differences and people like it. It makes it easier to navigate the material and social world when something tells me about the person and what to expect. We're not blobs with no character, we're a certain kind of person with a certain kind of body, with a certain kind of accent, aesthetic, tastes, moving around certain kinds of groups.

You are an *anonymous leftist*, paranoid that someone may be able to point you as an individual out for running your mouth and being ignorant if not simply going against the grain. People on the extreme sides of the idpol debate are the most meme general identitarians there are. One of them is determinately and generally essentialist (SJWs), and the other is indeterminately essentially general (anti-idpol).

proof is a spook

This. Some people are autusts and think of humans as cogs in a machine and nothing more. The entire point of socialism is to allow us to be unique but to work together for a common goal, as that in itself is the human archetype. We would no longer be human if all identity was abolished.

My point isn't for "PC sake", it's establishing a point about how fucking languages can be changed, and said changed language can be for our own benefit

you fail to realize this has been done since the dawn of time

What exactly is abstract about a word having changed meaning. Do you think anything you're saying right now will matter in 100, 200 years?

You're somehow offended by the idea language changes.

Why should they matter when words change meaning and context throughout the years. Do you think say, someone 100 or 200 years ago would condone you calling them a bastard?

If the people think "These words having meaning and are unchanging", you're not only an idiot. But missing my point by at least a ballpark.

This fatalistic tale of "BUT IT WOULD HAPPEN ANYWAY" doesn't actually give the languages its own power. I'm guessing your English, because your take on language is elementary, so many languages have masculine and feminine definitions.

The point of this thread was not to piss you off by saying "gender don't real", my point was to make a debate about what would, and would not, work, about a hypothetical langauge.

All I've gotten so far is "The Will of the people" "Human nature" and "Words don't matter". For being well read you having a shocking lack of understanding for what language is and how it can influence men for better or for worse, positive to us and negative to us. If changing language is a definite problem, most of you would have had a heart attack by now.

Discussing the topic of changing language is heinous censorship, agreed 100%. Language never changes, English never changed. This is all idpol, the idea a language, let's say Spanish doesn't have to use masculine or feminine touches to simple words is Misandry idpol.

Everything is idpol. Discussing, and asking for a discussion on language as a counter measure and even a method of propaganda for Socialism, is now idpol.

Which is ironic since you came from Holla Forums.

just espeaky chinee.. ta

Commies cucked again

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Saying that getting rid of X word will result in Y behavior is a common misconception of linguistics. Plenty of languages don't have gendered pronouns and whatnot, it doesn't magically solve anything.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

And so it's human nature, and control of language won't have an impact at all, is that what you're saying

FINALLY

Guess it's time for the whole board to get deleted again

There is nothing to take advantage from removing prouns.
You don't realize on how many layer of liberal ideology you are under.

I guess it's just human nature innit

No you fuckwit, don't put words in my mouth. It's that when the average person calls a coworker a "he" or "she" that they don't really mean anything by it and trying to police such low level grammar in a language is an exercise in futility. A lot of languages don't have seperate words for he or she but that doesn't make them any less sexist, just like how spanish or german speakers aren't more sexist because every noun has an arbitrary grammatical gender assigned to it. Language does not equal thought, our brains are not slaves to quirks of our native languages. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

No. It would just be straight-up orwellian totalitarianism.

Seriously, the moment you start entertaining the thought of eliminating social ills by arbitrarily changing one of the very foundations of society is the moment you need to just go off yourself just in case you somehow ever get a modicum of power over other people.
No, it doesn't matter that you mean well. You're too stupid not to cause harm.

The suggestion above also extends to people who equate anti-authoritarianism with conservativism.

Yes, it does.

They kind of are.

You have difficulty grasping the very concept that language shapes thought.

Entire languages have vanished, dialects have vanished, would it be so totalitarian to actually create a new language without the necessity for identity whatsoever? No. It's not control at all. If anything the English language has been more of a scar upon humanity than any other language.

First of all, just because harmful things happen naturally does not make it okay to do them intentionally. Compare: people die, yet we avoid killing them.

But more importantly, many of those languages did not in fact disappear naturally. Many of them disappeared because rulers found it convenient to impose homogeneity on their subjects. It happened in coordinated acts of mass violence that most people are now rightly repulsed by. If you look to the worst of imperialist and colonial governments for inspiration, then I honestly don't know what to tell you…

And if you genuinely merely wanted to "create" a new language and see if it naturally caught on, I could only applaud you. But I'm pretty sure you realize that a natural change is not something you can easily control and bend to your will. You've just found it convenient to retract to a motte and your real point is the bailey of "create… and force people to use". That's a bullshit semantic game, stop playing them, they don't work.

or just some posts of mine

Imagine being so full of yourself that when somebody paraphrases your position and states that they disagree with it, you say in response that they must have failed to grasp what the position even is; and on top of that, the position in question is whether there is a tight correspondence between thought and language.

I'm not entirely in the camp that thought is independent of language, but I would certainly not say that language is all there is to thought, and I'm closer to the former end of the spectrum than the latter. I'd rather say thought exists before language and is curved by language. (I'm not entirely happy with putting it that way though, as that sounds a bit like the thought starts as correct, and then gets corrupted by language. Aren't you also often struggling with how to phrase thoughts properly? And isn't that proof to you that thought is not quite where the language is?) I have a question to those who believe thoughts are strongly shaped by language: Do you really believe that someone who is fluent in more than one language undergoes a fundamental change in personality when switching between languages, Dr Japan and Mr Hindi?

I have never considered this before, but this may be the line of thought that makes idpolers assume that not speaking the PC language of academic elite makes you an evil person. After all, it would literally MAKE you an evil person.