Why are so many conspiracy theorists anti-communist. I could probably only name a handful of them that are sympathetic towards communism. Doesn’t it logically follow that if there’s this evil elite running the show that a successful communist revolution would destroy the basis of their power? They typically justify themselves by saying that various attempted communist revolutions were excuses by the elite to grab up national wealth for nefarious purposes. Ok, let’s assume that’s true, wouldn’t it follow that the goal of the elite in participating in such a revolution is to infiltrate and discredit socialism from within? It’s kind of interesting to me how many are spouting the line that the Bolshevik Revolution was insitigated by the elite itself. It seems that neither the Trotskyist thesis of bureaucratic degeneration of the ML thesis of restoration of capitalism via a revisionist takeover is even considered. Perhaps this is because these theorists do not believe workers can organize independently.
The theorists who focus on the Jewish connection and those who focus on the Masonic/“Illuminati”and/or Vatican connections seem agreed on this days. Of course there are exceptions to this but that’s not the point.
Ok, well the anti-communism is one thing but what’s even more odd to me is the blatant traditionalism of much conspiracy theory now. The thesis that the Illuminati and Adam Weisphaut were behind the overthrow of monarchies and destruction of religion seems little questioned. Having thought about this, I came to the conclusion that assuming the Illuminati actually existed and were behind this that what they did was good. There’s no materialist method it seems only moralist criticism where if “elites” do something it’s automatically bad unless it’s elites we like
Only Carroll Quigley who wrote about the Anglo-American establishment and its secret societies was bold enough to consider their work “good”
The irony that I find behind this all is that it’s the Left that’s most likely to be targeted by actual conspiracies. Cointelpro, Operation Gladio, the assassinations of the 60s, the bankrolling of European fascists by various factions of the international capitalist class. Kevin Barrett argues that most of the terrorist attacks in the West are part of what he calls Gladio B and in the intention is to get right-wing regimes in power which almost always happens after a major terrorist attack.
Yet much of the Left is reticent to even talk about this even though we’re the most harmed by the conspiracies of the capitalists. Simultaneously, the classical fascist regimes were hot beds of secret societies, such as the Black Ocean society, the Thule society, Opus Dei and others. Both fascist Germany and fascist Japan used false-flag terrorism to justify wars. Yet the heavily right-leaning conspiracy theory circles almost completely ignore this.They also ignore the fact that conservatism is opposed to popular liberation by its nature—something they claim to be in favor of.
Between the conservative conspiracy loons and the Chomskyite gate-keepers what are we to do?
Please forgive my errors. I’m phoneposting, I don’t have a working computer rn
Justin Howard
We need to slowly indoctrinate these conspiracy theorist types into Posadism.
Jeremiah Flores
Because conspiratorialism is a -substitution' for a materialist analysis of the world.
The conspiracy theorist can see that something's wrong in the present system, but has no real conception of the social forces compromising the structure of commodity society. The conspiracy theory is therefore his substitution for a material analysis, predicated on his view that the déclasse 'elites' he opposes are motivated by ideas - by ideology, by belief systems and value sets.
The conspiracist hyperfocuses on a small number of active 'elites' and remains ignorant of the existence of the other members of that class. Thus in anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists, for example, we get a "Jewish elite" independent of the 'elite' of other ethnic groupings.
Luis Jones
Well, don’t you think there are actual conspiracies? I mean the capitalist class has secret services and laws against exposing their activities for a reason—they don’t like what they do in the dark coming out in the light.
It seems to me that the conversation on both sides is almost completely ideological. The fact that the capitalist powers armed up the Russian Whites would be dismissed as conspiracy theory by a sizeable part of the Left if it occurred today. The Reichstag fire, which was correctly understood as a Nazi false-flag in its time has been revised by the capitalists to claim that no such event took place because it sets a bad precedence. Obviously there is all the nasty work done by the CIA etc.
You have a good point about the Jewish conspiracy theories although I think that Zionism and the Mossad has a much nastier history than most of the Left realizes
Tyler Powell
Perhaps, but I think his point is that the framework "truthers" analyze conspiracies from is commonly unmaterialist and undialectical, and thusly they do not mesh with Communist ideology, because it is built on a base they disagree with.
Christian Cox
Not in the sense the modern conspiracist thinks of them, no.
Let's take a conspiracy near and dear to the hearts of modern succdems: the Business Plot by a faction of capitalists to overthrow Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal. This, it's implied, is proof positive that FDR really was independent of the capitalist class - that the superstructure was independent of its base - and that therefore the New Deal heritage is worth defending.
But we know this isn't actually the case, not the least because FDR has the staunch support of Rockefeller, Hearst, most of the railroad interests in the United States [which were damn close to going belly-up almost in unison when Roosevelt was inaugurated], and other sections of capital. Why, then, would some capitalists want to throw out the representative of other members of their class?
When looked at in this light, the Business Plot ceases to look like a 'conspiracy theory' in the sense that the conspiratorialists think of them - as some shadowy agenda detached from real interests - and more like the typical operation of politics under the bourgeoisie.
In other words, ALL capitalist politics are 'conspiratorial'. From the vantage point of the worker, the doings of the capitalists are unknowable, like those of Yahweh. The businessmen move in mysterious ways. Our task, then, has to be to clarify these movements, for ourselves and for others.
In other words, it's less a matter of finding "Left" conspiracy theoriesto counter "Right" ones and more a matter of explaining the existing ones within the light of a materialist understanding of the world. -Why- would an elite engage in conspiratorial behavior? What concrete needs would he serve by doing it? How can we rationally account for what appears to be 'conspiratorialism' on the part of the bourgeoisie?
Lincoln Martinez
Because conspiracy theories are mostly petite bourgeois. See pic related. The petite bourgeoisie are in between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand they profit from capitalism, but on the other hand they are constantly being squeezed between labor movements and the crushing power of big business and established families. Because they can't attack capitalism without implicating themselves, they resort to esoteric conspiracy theories, which render them victims of dark and sometimes supernatural forces. While also leaving them innocent. The proles in this regard are just "mindless sheeple" and tools of the "elites" who want to crush small businesses and entrepreneurship.
Its no surprise that America enjoys widespread support for these theories.
Leo Hill
Anti-Socialism, Traditionalism, and Conspiratorial thinking, are all associated with lower I.Q.
Robert Evans
Labor agitation can, in fact, be used to service the interests of Capital against other sectors of Capital. The whole New Deal, for example, was an attempt by the haute-bourgeoisie to undermine its petit-bourgeois competition, exemplified in the form of the National Recovery Act which allowed the leaders of each industrial sector to establish the regulations their own industry would be governed by [i.e. corporatism].
I ascribe no -moral- significance to this phenomenon, but it is true that in the absence of genuinely revolutionary conditions labor agitation can just as easily be turned towards the interests of competing sectors of capital as towards the interests of the working-class. Another example is the AFL-CIO, which sponsored labor agitation throughout the Eastern Bloc.
Juan Baker
Have you ever read this book? It’s one of the first I’ve read that attempts to take “conspiracy theory” seriously from an Academic perspective. The author coins the term SCADs (state crimes against democracy) to describe how conspiratorial behavior is used to undermine democracy. He also uses the term elite crimes to describe the fact that many of the covert actions are crimes of the elite carried out against the general public. He says that conspiracy denial is a tactic used to obscure patterns of elite crimes carried out against the public. He also deals with the fact that Washington and its kept press while denying the possibility of any conspiracy originating from the ruling class at home are some of the greatest purveyors of wild conspiracy theories about other countries themselves.
My only complaint with this book is that it isn’t a Marxist book but otherwise it’s very well reasoned and hardly fringe material. I think ithe framework established about SCADs and elite crimes fits into the Marxist framework of bourgeois democracy fairly well.
I like what that post has to say and largely agree with you. However, I should note that the term “conspiracy theory” was coined by the CIA and weaponized through the mockingbird media to attack critics of the Warren Commission and then to attack all critical thinking in general as “conspiracy theory”
So, you might say that the popularization of the term is the most successful conspiracy of all time. I think the American Right indulges in quite a bit of conspiracies but by and large I believe it was Sarkozy who said: “The French see conspiracies everywhere whereas the Americans see conspiracies nowhere; neither side is right” I think that is for the most part still true.
Oliver Foster
The current left even refuses to believe that 9/11 was a false flag.
Jesus fuck, talk about communists and anarchists that follow mainstream narrative to a fucking T.
Unless it's the CIA, everything is by the CIA.
Julian Lewis
Israel didn't do, neither did Saddam, so who did it? Because the idea of the US doing it when the risk of orchestrating a terrorist attack against thousands of government employees as well as civilians cannot be worth the reward of Iraq's oil.
Evan Cooper
We have talked about this before The basic idea is that rightist conspiranoics do not actually care about the evil behind the conspiracies but use conspiracies to defend rightist mistakes. This rightist think isn't bad is just that there was a judeo-bolshevik illuminaty-freemasons organization sabotaging it
Blake Hill
Israel and Saudi Arabia did it, shit makes fucking sense.
Iraq's oil is worthless, what matters is that the US is deployed so that Israel is protected from Saddam and Iran power is weakened.
Tyler Stewart
I sometimes wonder to what extent the capitalist State -fakes- behavior congruent with conspiracy theories for its own purposes. Adam Curtis [not a Marxist but by far the best liberal I've ever encountered] talks a lot about this phenomenon in 'Hypernormalization', using examples as diverse as the UFO crazy of the eighties and early nineties - designed to cover up the U.S. military testing third-generation stealth fighters - and Vladislav Surkov's application of theatrical techniques to the realm of politics.
Dollars to donuts a lot of what appears to us to be inscrutable 'conspiratorial' behavior on the part of capitalists are in fact carefully orchestrated in order to promote conspiratorial - and consequently immaterialistic - thinking.
Luke Miller
This is how i react to american hyper capitalism.
Julian Harris
Was Saddam threatening Israel post Desert Storm? Not even mentioning Saddam serves as a barrier for everyone against Iran, which is why Soviets and Americans backed Saddam and his crusade to crush the Islamic Revolution.
Joseph Reyes
Saddam was a thorn on Israel's side since the first Gulf War.
He wasn't friendly to Iran, but he wasn't friendly to Israel either.
This means he has to go, so that a more loyal puppet can be installed.
But of course, Israel overestimates the US's power of nation building and ends up having a friendlier-to-Iran Iraq.
It's not a coincidence that only anti-Israel regimes are frequently deposed in the Middle east.
Elijah Garcia
But of course, this gets ignored.
It's all about those damn capitalists! Geopolitics be damned.
Kayden Rogers
READ LENIN
Bentley Hernandez
Lenin himself wasn't a capitalist, yet he is still at the forefront of geopolitics.
Explain that
Liam Clark
No, but the Soviet Union was certainly capitalist. And Lenin himself admitted it.
What does "hidden reserves latent in production" even mean if not the extraction of surplus value from workers? If not, in other words, exploitation?
Logan Brown
There is a distinction between acknowledging actual instances of "conspiracies" or more accurately covert operations (which were plenty during the Cold War), and explaining world events solely as the malevolent scheming of a shadowy cabal bent on corrupting society. Conspiracism is not simply pointing to this or that curious happening, it's a worldview built on personifying social relations using a highly theatrical rhetorical style.
Jayden Hill
Why does every Holla Forums thread turn into the same debate about the Soviet Union using the same old rehashed points. Jesus fucking Christ…
Jayden Adams
I’m not really into the whole “Inside Job” angle but the assumption that the US wouldn’t kill thousands of its own citizens if it stood to gain is ludicrous. It’s even in the PNAC papers published before 9/11 that America would need “a new Pearl Harbor” in order to rally the public to fight a multi-generational war in the Middle East on a massive scale.
We know from the Kennedy Papers and other sources that the US was planning false-flags in both Cuba and inside the US in order to justify overthrowing the Cuban government.
Israel has been at odds with Iraq since it’s founding. Read Oded Yinon’s “A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s” which states that the Middle East must be broken up and that Iraq is their main enemy in the Arab world.
Most intelligent people who study the subject see the Israeli Mossad as the obvious culprit behind 9/11. I’m not saying that the US government didn’t help or allow it to happen but they were following the Israeli script in the Middle East to a T. Not only were the neoconservatives dedicated to advancing Israel’s interests but in light of the Trotskyist origins of the group their strategy makes sense. The US and Israel were aiming for a revolutionary reconstruction of the Middle East by busting down all barriers to the intensification of the post-modern neoliberal capitalist mode of accumulation in the region.
I suspect that the diversion of arms and training to Assad by the military,as revealed by Seymour Hersh, against the wishes of the Obama administration is a sign of resistance to what’s viewed as Israeli domination over US policy.
It’s also likely that the military is diverting more troops and attention to Africa because Africa is being seen by the military as being of greater value to the US than the Middle East which is an obsession of Israel and all its supporters.
I believe that the military knows that 9/11 was carried out by the Israeli Mossad and so do most intelligent people in government. The Trump regime (whereas Obama was more cool towards them) is an instrument of the Zionists and that’s probably why we’re hearing high-ranking military officials saying they won’t follow “illegal” orders from Trump.
Keep in mind when I say this I’m not saying that the US military is good. The increasing drift towards military control of civilian society is a sign of a drift towards fascism but I do believe that faction of the government is less pleased with Israel. Very few people want to get a leg blown off to help Israeli interests.
Henry Green
it wasn't a false flag. It was just a hell of a good excuse to crack down on things. The Nazis could have taken any pretext but an edgy vagabond dutch teenager gave them the perfect alibi
Jacob Morris
Pic related. Socialism is when the government does stuff in the economy. Thus, socialism means the government has more power to enforce Illuminati psychological brainwashing techniques in schools to indoctrinate kids against the anti-alien resistance.
Zachary Cox
It actually was. The first responders admitted they saw men running out of the building they believed to be Nazis. It was physically impossible for the Oak paneling to get so hot that it caused a gas explosion in the plenary without the aid of liquid fuel within an hour. But the edgy vagabond as you describe him allegedly started a fire that reached a heat level of over 1000 degrees using a heat with a lighter and a literal t-shirt. The oak paneling used in the Reichstag fire had such a high ignition point it was considered flame retardant. Some of the greatest chemists and forensics experts of that era looked into the case and found that the official story was lacking. The same has been found when researchers today have tried to recreate the same results.
woops my mistake. he reviews another book that proves that the dutch guy did it.
Eli Parker
now i take my comment back i'm getting confused as fuck i'm mixing up names REE
Charles Brown
...
William Reed
Neither unrestrained crony Capitalism, like we're seeing now, nor Communism is favorable in the eyes of any conspiracy theorist that hasn't fallen for blatant disinfo/COINTEL narratives. I hardly ever come here, but if anyone here wants to ask any questions to a right-wing conspiracy theorist, I'd be more than happy to give an relatively in-depth answer. As long as you're respectful, I'll be respectful back.
Liam Turner
I hate it when people say this, socialism is indeed the government does stuff.
How the fuck do you think the workers are gonna get the means of productions?
Connor Reed
An insightiful post, but this board is going to ignore it because how dare they name Mossad?
Of course, it's just those damn capitalists at it again.
Hey just because it was the original version of the meme doesn’t mean it’s untrue.
A T-shirt can’t melt oak beams.
Jordan Price
This board is pretty fucking critical of Israel. People here are pretty aware of the way that Israel, Mossad, and Zionist billionaires manipulate the US. This is compared to Holla Forums the "Nazi" board that supports Zionist neo-cons because they say racist things about hispanics.
Jonathan Bennett
But jews who hate black people and hispanics are #BASED, user.
Cooper Diaz
Ok, so what I don’t understand is why so many conspiracy theorists adhere to the libertarian not in the sense of libertarian socialism either line that you’ve presented here.
So let’s say we have crony capitalism to me it sounds like a natural outgrowth or big business which is a natural outgrowth of free-market capitalism. The Rothschilds, the Rockefellers and the other prominent business families all became prominent in a time where there was massive competition in the marketplace and relatively little government interference. Maybe they used dirty tricks to get rich but they weren’t the only ones doing that—they just were better than anyone else at it.
If their networks were busted up then the networks of new oligarchs would rise creating the same problems. Soros, Buffet, Gates, Ortega, Slim are just some examples of new money that has already risen to the rank of oligarch status.
I also fail to see a real scientific political-economic understanding of the institutions that conspiracy theorists talk about. Let’s take the Federal Reserve, so in the protocols it’s said that the Jews are trying to force the world to use the gold standard because they control the gold. Perhaps that’s why some supporters of social credit and other monetary schemes like Ezra Pound were drawn to fascist anti-semitism. Ok, well now we’re off the gold standard and it obviously doesn’t work well long-term when it comes to preserving the value of the average worker’s paycheck. Now there are those in libertarian circles who say that the Jews or the 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧globalist🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 bankers are the ones who took us off the gold standard. So which theory is right?
I think in reality that both theories are wrong, but the latter especially so since big bankers prefer a stable or deflationary currency to an inflating one since it diminishes the value of their interest payments over time. It seems like the super-industrialists like Ford, Rockefeller, Carnegie and Mellon etc. were the ones who preferred an inflationary policy from a business perspective. They took up and popularized the ideology of Keynesianism in order to bolster their interests. But we are told that the industrialists are “good elites” because they aren’t banksters and they hire people.
Likewise, most banking institutions don’t even work in the way that most conspiracy theorists imagine them. There was an interesting event that happened in 2008 when the price of consumer goods exploded when the FED didn’t even expand the money supply. That event is not explained by any mainstream economic theory or any theory that libertarian conspiracy theorists adhere to since the government didn’t turn on the printing press and things still went belly up. But what it was was the capitalists ran into gold because of the crisis despite the fact that the FED did not expand the money supply.
There are various other aspects of the industrial cycle that are not really explained by the dominance of a few ruling families. But it seems often assumed in these theories that the Rothschilds are so powerful that they can skirt the laws of capitalism and direct the world as they wish and that is not possible.
And lastly, as regards the Royal Bloodlines and Vatican conspiracies and I only briefly mention them because they are barely popular anymore assuming they are true they are a result of the capitalist revolutionaries of the past to completely overturn the old order. In this regard, the capitalist revolutionaries of the past are superior to the conspiracy theorists of the present since they were willing to get out the guilotine. Endorsing more of the same (I.e. production for profit and market exchange) won’t solve that problem.
Anyways, considering the popularity of the conspiracy theories about Weisphaut and the Illuminati overturning the “good” old order in Europe I kind of wonder if conspiracy theories actually like capitalism in spite of their protests to the contrary. Pls don’t break out the meme about the American Revolution being one of the good bourgeois revolutions when it was basically the same as the others and about as violent as the French Revolution when you consider colonial America’s small population.
Jason Nelson
*wonder if conspiracy theorists actually like capitalism
Grayson Bennett
I have watched some Christopher Bollyn lectures where he argues Mossad was behind 9/11. It does seem pretty fishy when you take into account the cheering Israelis who were apprehended (Trump misrepresented this as cheering Muslims and was lambasted for it but from what I can tell the story of cheering Israelis is true), and also the Israelis on chat app Omegle who were alerted to the attack ahead of time, and also the towers recently changed ownership to this guy Silverstein who I think is a Zionist. And on top of there are reports that the towers were closed for maintenance the weekend before or something like that, which would potentially allow planting of explosives.
Is this guy where you're getting your information from? He seemed to know what he was talking about, but I haven't dug into it enough to say. Also he does seem rather right-wing. Who else do you mean when you say "intelligent people who study the subject"? Cause from what I can tell this is still a pretty fringe theory.
I think some people on this board might be open to the idea of Mossad being behind it, because we're anti-Zionist and can hopefully draw the line between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. However, the broader left would go ballistic at this theory, just because Zionist conspiracy sounds too close to Jewish conspiracy. Israeli intelligence has also done a lot of muddying the waters to confusing anti-Zionism with anti-semitism.
Mason Morales
The party that achieved revolution has in every case I'm history become a tyrannical elite just like capitalism except now the people have no property or rights so they are more easily suppressed.
I agree with this kind of. They're not trying to get right wing government (small government with traditional social values) they use "terrorist" attacks [which are usually done by themselves] to consolidate their power and pass tyrannical laws that violate people's rights to privacy etc. This is true of both left and right wing government as they're both a trick.
The real question is freedom vs tyranny. Communism is inherently less free than capitalism despite capitalism being retarded as the wealth is already in the hands of a few.
T. Conspiracy theorist browsing this board for first time.
Chase Rivera
are you an actual retard?
Adam Baker
too easy.
Anthony Evans
Maybe because communists openly conspire to take over the world?
Jace Carter
A socialist economy is different from a socialist revolution. Also, a revolution would entail wide-spread class conscious and people going about their ways to achieve socialism. A government would makeup a fraction of the revolutionaries.
Is that you ancapie? Are you not aware your system was brought about and can only exist by/with gubbaments?
William Collins
I was more influenced by Kevin Barrett on this issue than the Italian ex-prime minister but I thought that was a telling confession nonetheless.
Here’s a presentation by Barrett at LeftForum and his online radio show and PressTV appearances are interesting too: youtube.com/watch?v=M2dHdKEfGjQ&t=58m3s
I’m glad you mentioned Bollyn because the father of Nick Kroll was actually the contractor running security in the towers and employed many Mossad members: m.youtube.com/watch?v=P2y_RpvJAiI
Even mainstream channels like Fox have run segments pointing out that Israel’s spy network in the US is so extensive that it’s impossible that they didn’t know: m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnWSNI7rKf0
Petras writes in his book “The Power is Israel over the United States” that there’s some convincing evidence that the Mossad at the very least knew even tho he doesn’t go into truther territory.
Former director of the US Army War college Allan Sabrovsky believes that Israel was behind 9/11. That’s what I base my opinion on that the US military does at the very least know about it as he’s said that he’s told many people in the army that they did it. m.youtube.com/watch?v=TT1AzrKuEtM
I really don’t write off the fact that the US gov or the CIA may have been involved but it seems to me that 1. Mossad is the best candidate as they had both access every step of the way and are experts at false-flag terrorism. 2. Israel was the primary beneficiary of the war on terror.
Yes, big oil did benefit from the WOT but that was really as a result of the blowback that caused oil prices to shoot through the roof. And while big oil collected some of the greatest profits in capitalist history the rest of the US economy was largely negatively impacted by high oil prices. Furthermore, high oil prices were the opposite of the intended goal of the neocons who wanted to ensure cheap, secure oil access to Israel and lower prices even further to boost Western growth.
There are others in the US government who called it as an Israeli attack according to Barrett but they’ve either died or fallen in line with the official narrative.
Austin Roberts
more like liberate the world, you can't really take over if there's no more power structures.
Chase Anderson
Also, I know it’s completely anecdotal and not good evidence but every time I’ve had the misfortune to speak with an obvious JIDF shill online they’ve actually denied the charge that they did 9/11. They’ll say something like “that’s disgusting anti-semitism” but surprisingly no outright denial, no attempted explanation why the conspiracy theories are wrong and so on.
Of course it’s only happened once or twice it’s not like I go out looking for these guys. But the strange reactions they have to the question convinced me there was something worth looking into there.
The quote on the second page is a fabrication, apparently from neo-nazi sources[1].
However, Barnett does indeed argue for multiculti global capitalism, which we already know is pure capitalism in expansion ("The Convergence of Civilizations", page 283). As much as nutsacks want him to argue about le white gen0cide, it doesn't argue from a racial point of view but what benefits capitalists and new capitalists the most (ie muh stability).
Interesting, I'm watching the Barrett lecture now. I always thought the left failed to adequately investigate 9/11, and Chomsky's gatekeeping has a lot to do with that I think.
Caleb Adams
Yes, I think that is the case. Chomsky was a Zionist youth leader as a young man and lived on a Kibbutz in the 50s so it’s hard to say he’s necessarily unbiased here.
Cameron White
If conspiracies don't exist, how come you can't criticize Israel publicly in America without being labeled an antisemite? It's obviously because AIPAC has America by the balls. Checkmate materialists.
Lucas Smith
Chomsky fucking ruins everything.
Brandon Nelson
I'm not opposed in principle to the idea that an interested actor would stage a false flag, but the cost benefit analysis for 9/11 just doesn't add up at all. Why the fuck would you go after porkies instead of, say, a sports stadium? Why would you attack the literal DoD headquarters? How would you find agents willing to sacrifice their lives for this criminal conspiracy? How has literally nobody of the at least dozens who would be involved in come out with proof of the involvement?
Adrian Wood
I’m gonna ask you this seriously, we’re you alive/politically aware at all during the Bush administration? They used to spout the whole they hate us for our freedom n shit all the time. They would say that they hate us because we’re so rich and we’re the site of the worlds largest economy, we are free marketers and so on. The whole Bush era rhetoric about freedom had an obvious economic component that was sometimes articulated and sometimes not.
The purpose of hitting the towers was to stifle popular criticism of financial system and the ruling class which had hit a surprising height during the Seattle WTO protests of 1999. The symbology that the terrorist hit our trade center is pretty obvious if you criticize American capitalism then you’re on the side of the terrorists. And, I must say while the people in the building were disproportionately porkies there were quite a few proles who died too unless you’re Jason Unruhe
None of the big oligarchs or politicians were killed in the attacks, it was almost all expendable functionaries and little porks.
To make it look convincing. These terrorists supposedly hit the twin towers out of justified anger against American imperialism. If you’re trying to make it convincing why would you have your hypothetical terrorists focus on a minor military installation or hit no military targets at all? Notice that the damage to the Pentagon was hardly substantial.
What you really should be asking is why weren’t there any suicide bombers striking important government positions in Tel Aviv? In Bin Laden’s alleged writings he expresses outrage at Israel many times and expresses his belief that the Jews run America’s institutions at every level. Yet no attacks against Israel; much like the fact that ISIS has never killed an Israeli and ISIS fighters have even been treated in Israeli hospitals.
Read Douglas Valentine. Intelligence agencies in the imperialist powers especially CIA and Mossad are more like legal mafias than mere spy agencies. These people live and breathe for the agency. Even the group who was alleged to have flown the planes into the towers had been created by the CIA/Mossad/KSA intelligence and had been infiltrated and commanded by them for decades. They didn’t even have to die themselves they could convince their agents in the group to get some useful Muslim idiots to it for them
The media reported that there was a Mossad agent on one of the planes that hit the towers. So maybe one of the secret operatives really did Kamikaze it.
This is one of those lines that sounds really good on the face of things but turns out to be wrong in reality. Can large numbers of people keep a secret? Yes, Lance deHaven-Smith points out the historical precedent of the Manhattan Project and the cracking of the German-Japanese communications codes. Literally thousands of people were involved in both projects and they were able to keep in a secret from the general public. In the case of the Manhattan project many people involved were simple civilians and not trained spies/intelligence agents. Now, the Soviets did know about the Manhattan project but they also kept it a secret; im not sure the Germans did. I have never seen any proof that the Germans and Japanese knew their codes had been broken.
Suffice it to say that dozens of people looking into 9/11 truth have died under mysterious circumstances. None of the plotters have come forward that I know of but it makes sense that they wouldn’t sense they would have a lot to lose, there would be a lot of hell to pay.
One of the arguments I heard against the Kennedy assassination being done by the governments was this point that one of the plotters would have confessed. And in fact one of them did! High-ranking CIA agent Howard Hunt confessed as he was on his deathbed.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=uFAZ8DmcQLg But he was the only one, the rest of them have probably taken their secrets to the grave. Again that speaks against the idea these sociopathic killers would have a fit of conscious and decide to tell the public. And many of the men who participated are probably still youngish, healthy, decades away from their death beds.
Levi Myers
Not really politically aware at the time, no, but I've seen a ton of documentaries on the rhetoric. Would they take advantage of the atrocity to propagandize for war? Absolutely, but I don't think that necessarily means they're complicit. Kamikaze-ing a 757 is hard as shit, there was absolutely potential for a bloodbath there
This doesn't make sense at all
If this is the case what's to say that they couldn't just do the attack without the CIA/Mossad's help?
What my main thesis here is that the sheer scale of the crime alleged here is unprecedented. The planned false flag massacres revealed by Northwoods, etc. don't even come close to the thousands murdered in the 9/11 attacks. Given the class connections with the victims the perpetrators would likely have personal, even family ties to potential victims, and if they didn't, they would surely meet others who had family die in the attacks.
Christian Long
Libertarianism in of itself is a creation of the political establishment. Look into say, Rand Paul, and you'll see he's part of the Council on Nation Policy. He's Rothschild money, basically. His advocacy for a return to a gold standard would actually be the "final nail" in the US's coffin so to speak.
Neither is particularly correct, and it plays into the sort of game they operate. They'll keep you arguing forever about which conspiracy is real, when at the end of the day it's all the same deal. Relatively monolithic elite class stealing wealth off the lower/middle class. We can argue about the past and present all day, week, month and year, but it's easier to just come to the conclusion the same actors that appear to pop up with frequency are in on the same con. It's best to think towards the future.
The way I see it, the FED and the economy is a part of a greater illusion, acting more as a pressure release valve. The elite can decide whether to give the lower classes some room or keep them under significant pressure. No matter what, they can't lose. It's a rigged system. Analyzing it is no different than looking into why a carnival game is rigged and trying to come up with a way to fix it. Best to move on to a better game, although it requires spreading awareness of a better system.
The "Old Order" is actually the order most people talk about when they refer to the Rothschilds, the FED, Rockefellers, etc… When you look at how aware the average person is, you'll see these entities aren't long for prominence as long as people keep up the pressure. Google Rothschild for instance, and you'll see just how aware people are of their crimes against humanity. Keep up the pressure. The average person would be far better suited investing their time into exposing conspiracies and getting them more in the public conscious. Everyone knows 9/11 was an inside job for instance, but not everyone knows that everyone knows, so it never gets brought up in conversation. You can dislike the "alt right" all you want, although it's a false dichotomy, and we won't get out of this mess until we learn to love and trust one another as Americans, but their investigations into conspiracy theories and their cultural influence that pushes them to the mainstream is a win for you and I.
The American Revolution was the only real revolution in recent history. There's a lot of "esoteric" history behind it, but I can assure you it wasn't just because the colonists were pissed about taxes. George Washington had it planned for years, and even created the concept of the "Illuminati" as a psychological trick to deceive the British. It didn't last long though, as the US quickly got subverted by the British. That's one area where Holla Forums is far more aware than the general public. The British are the most underrated evil in the world. I can link you to more literature if you'd like in this area. Again, I do warn it's very "esoteric" and might not jive with you the way it does me.
Ryan Robinson
It had recently been reinforced with blast walls and had been built with at least five layers of thick concerte walls between sections. The military was not going to be decapitated by the impact of one airplane and in any case everyone knows there are always fallback measures and structures in place in those kind of organizations.
It doesn’t make sense, because with all due respect, you’re either not informed on the topic or not looking at it the right way. The primary goal of the Iraq War wasn’t simply to grab the oil or install a new regime but to destroy Iraq. That aspect of the war very much succeeded.
I’ve mentioned it before but I’d ask that you please read Oded Yinon’s “A Plan For Israel In The 1980s” which describes the Balkanization of the Middle East on sectarian and ethnic lines as Israel’s primary goal in the region. Furthermore it’s documented by historical precedent from Mossad false-flags killing hundreds of Arab Jews in order to encourage them to emigrate, to the destabilization of Nasser’s regime and collapse of the SAR and to the arming of violent Right-wing Christian militias with the intention of carving out a Christian state in Lebanon in the 80s leading to the Sabra and Shatila massacre.Iraq had been on the top of Israel’s hitlist for sometime as the most modern and powerful Arab state in the region; now Iran is becoming their new bête noir.
If you read the Oded Yinon plan, which is very interesting btw and displays a firm grasp of avant-garde postmodern concepts, you’ll quickly see that most of the PNAC material is really a carbon copy of that plan or heavily influenced by it.
Furthermore, just because the US succeeded at destroying Iraq does not mean they met all their other objectives. The US realized that Iraqi resistance was too strong for a stable puppet regime to emerge, so they doubled-down on destroying and manipulating the nation on sectarian lines. First Petreaus came in with the “El Salvador option” of training pro-US death squads of Shia goons who terrorized the local Sunni population. Then the Sunni who were justifiably angry formed a rival group at Camp Bucca that came to be known as ISIS. Not even the imperialist politicians deny that the Gulf State wahhabists armed ISIS up although accusations that the US and Israel were supporting ISIS has dogged both states since the inception of the movement.
What is it that ISIS does? 1. It sells oil to Israel indirectly through Turkey. This is something that couldn’t be done directly under the occupation regime since the Iraqi resistance was too powerful they simply blew up the oil infrastructure. 2.It commits genocide, slavery and other atrocities that helps to divide Arab nations and workers along ethnic lines. 3. It was a puppet that could be used to discipline both Assad and the regime in Baghdad to make it more client. 4. It carries out terrorist attacks in the West that help create a right-wing atmosphere and more state control.
I would point out too that the Iraqi government is not as pliable as the US wishes. US combat troops left Iraq because the government wanted them out and not because the American politicians cared about anti-war sentiment and war weariness at Home—that was bullshit they fed to the public. Ever since they’ve been doing deals with Russia, China and Iran.
I don’t think that’s a very good argument just because it hasn’t been done on the same scale doesn’t mean it couldn’t be done. Operation Northwoods and all the false-flags now revealed by the Kennedy files both inside Cuba and the US would have probably taken thousands of lives.
Both the CIA and Mossad are false flag experts. The latter have probably killed thousands of fellow Jews in false flag incidents across the world.
It’s widely thought that Suharto was involved in the September 30th movement that assasinated the Indonesian generals who were used to justify the killings of millions. Maybe only a handful of generals were killed but in terms of its effects it was the greatest false flag ever—the massacre had been planned before the event.
I think it’s completely plausible that such an unprecedented attack could be done. I don’t think precedence necessarily precludes the event, it’s possible that US intelligence had never killed a sitting president before Kennedy but they were involved in the plot to do it.
Charles Rodriguez
Again, Al Qaeda was set up by the CIA and other allied intelligence service—they knew what it was going to do. The attacks on 9/11 were not a surprise. The classified pages of the 9/11 commission that have been leaked to the public by those who’ve seen it admit that the KSA were complicit in the plot. Interestingly, the Saudi’s were not completely docile when it came to this information getting out and their minister of finance even went so far as to say that the American government did 9/11 itself. Unsurprisingly, that accusation didn’t make the rounds in the Western media. But the question is whose lying? Even if we assume that the accusation of direct Saudi involvement in 9/11 by the commission by Saudi Arabia is true, it’s also true that Saudi Arabia is a silent of partner of Israel going all the way back to the 20s and KSA has an extremely close relation with the US. They wouldn’t help Al-Qaeda carry out the attacks if the US and Israel didn’t want them too. So in a way both Saudi Arabia and the US are telling the truth—they were both complicit! But it is unsurprising that the 9/11 commission which was staffed by fananatical Zionists and biased US government officials points the finger at KSA and not at Tel Aviv or Washington.
As for the physical science of the official story of the 9/11 attacks, it’s been debunked many times ae911truth.org One of Europe’s most respected scientific journals even published a story that called out the official story as junk science but it didn’t make much of an impact on the religious believers in the official story:europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016474p21.pdf
It’s weird though that people clench up when confronted with scientific fact but are willing to entertain alternative political theories about what happened on 9/11. Usually, I talk about that when I talk about the subject and it seems to make more of an impression.
The fact that America has been in open collaboration with Al Qaeda in Syria and Libya for more than 7 years should be enough for most people to conclude that the War in Terror and the 9/11 Reichstag fire that justified it is bullshit.
Austin Baker
In short, communism has more instances in history of being desired, constructed, by an economic hegemonic elite with the ultimate goals of consolidating wealth and political power into the concentrated hands of the few, while pretending to be for "the people"
This is in stark contrast to the most often quoted historical opposite, the Nazis, which in my view, while they did a better and more accurate job on identifying global hegemony which are the economic elite of Jews and their helpers, ultimately got subverted by the same global hegemonic powers and the Nazi regime crashed through mistakes in policy that shouldnt of been made.
Jace Peterson
*UAR
Jaxson Hughes
So you believe that there were controlled demolitions in addition to the planes? The logistics of hiding bombs in a complex inhabited by thousands, the dozens of additional conspirators that could rat - the story becomes a million times more implausible. It also again raises the question again of why they would destroy billions of dollars worth of human capital when you could get a much better rate of return bombing elsewhere.
Kayden Robinson
I've seen a lot of conspiracy theorists say that the CIA is PRO-socialism
There is truly no saving them
Joshua Campbell
It's certainly true that the CIA is more friendly to succdems and the official labor unions than the FBI or the NSA. thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/CIO_without_CIA.html … If all someone knows about 'socialism' is reformism, then it makes sense they'd see the CIA as 'socialist'. And of course leftists are loathe to disabuse them of the notion, hardly understanding socialism themselves.
Nathaniel Rivera
do you know how much money was missing in the DoD at the time? All the records went missing after the strike.
Easton Howard
Roths and other blue blood famlies are the public face for the actual capitalists. The old European blood, the Black nobility ranging from families like the Windsors the Colonna, Massimo, Orsini, Ruspoli, Pallavicini, Theodoli, Sacchetti, Borghese, Odescalchi, and Boncompagni-Ludovisi
Joseph Bell
futhermore, the American revolution was whig bullshit, the people controlling the English Government and colonial affairs wanted to lose. Just a continuation of the English "civil" war and so on. All internal struggles between the Black Nobility.
Jeremiah Bell
What happened to that surplus value? It didn't go to profit some capitalist. It was re-invested into the economy in the form of new industries, new infrastructure, new housing, new schools and hospitals for the people.
Jackson Williams
TIL that a party bureaucrat with a dacha on the volga is materially distinct from a financier with a mansion on the Rhine because… because.
Hudson Allen
So where's the daily thread to point out these problems?
We see anti-capitalist threads every days, where are the anti-Israel threads?
Aiden Hall
Please explain what do you mean by that? Are people some kind of hivemind? Are they completely non-greedy and they are just gonna share the "means of productions"?
And said government would be the ones who would redistribute the means of productions to the revolutionaries.
Marx said that and he's wrong, the first market exists before any big state exists.
Hudson Hughes
Controlled demolitions are not really implausible, and come on, hiding bombs? People can hide fucking gold in WTC7 and nobody would give a shit, they are drones man.
Anthony Miller
Can you name a single time when communists, upon coming to power, served the interests of the existing hegemonic elite? If you can't name such an example, your claim is flat out bullshit.
Kevin Moore
Give me a break m8. The most morally debased, corrupt bureaucrat under "state capitalism" made at most 10 times your average worker.
Under capitalism, someone like Jeff Bezos makes more money in 1 hr than their employees can make in their entire lives.
John Foster
In other words, society itself became the primary exploiter of the Russian proletariat. "State capitalism" in a very real sense - the State as capitalist.
Luke Powell
You can believe whatever bullshit you want as long as you admit it's non-Marxist to view the "state" as a class in and of itself
Thomas Long
Because generally communists are anti-racist.
A major buzzkill.
Gabriel White
Workers will occupied the factories/offices where they use to work and run the workplace by organizing themselves.
Owen Rogers
Explain how exactly they organize themselves?
Are they some kind of hivemind that know exactly what role they do, and never have any kind of dispute or anything?
Jack Davis
Are the state-bureaucrat the same as the proletariat? Do they share the same living standard?
Answer this question.
Sebastian Davis
Most conspiracies are about authority abusing their power.. why would anyone in their right mind advocate for more authority over individuals?
Henry Wilson
I was quoting someone else there.
I always wondered if there was any actual evidence for this. I’ve heard of it but there doesn’t seem to be that much concrete material on it imo
I don’t think there was much difference if any between the bureaucrats and proles under Stalin but that definitely changed under Khrushchev even if the USSR stayed more egalitarian than the West all the way to its end.
If I’m being completely honest with you I’d say that where I think the Soviets fucked up was allowing significant inequalities between workers. That wasn’t out of line with what Marx had written in the Gotha program and what he wrote in Capital. The thing is if you were an engineer or a famous author/artist in the USSR you could actually make a fair bit of money.
While in the party and holding a government position was actually largely detrimental to your economic well-being and prospects as Endymion points out.
Let’s be real, most Marxian socialists see no real injustice in the fact that a retail worker may make $10,000 in a year, a factory worker making $30,000 and an engineer making $100,000 I honestly think this type of thinking corroded the USSR. That’s why I believe Hoxha did the right thing by bringing income inequality down to 2:1–the lowest level in the world.
The Western Left has always been dazzled by Trotsky’s appropriation of Weber’s bureaucracy meme but in reality the people who led the restoration of capitalism in the USSR under Khrushchev were typically technocratic engineers and firm managers who were really more like CEOs or staff managers than pencil-pushing bureaucrats.
Matthew Rogers
Bump
William Gray
do you even democracy bruh, it's called elected councils, or maybe even direct democracy if feasible. reduce the governmental state entity into decentralized networks of unions
bureaucrats are not the same as the proletariat, look at any existing nation-state. if we are to have an elected government they must be altered to figures of social utility, not corporate profit shills.
Juan Flores
Literally how is this true? Are you one of those proles=only factory workers types?
Josiah Hughes
Bump
Daniel Edwards
not at all. are you however going to call people who have active stakes as figureheads of capital, actively enforce capitalism and use their position to consolidate their power in the bourgeois sphere, proletariat?
