Manifesto for normalizing Socialism in the USA

After a few days of suggestions and ideas I've finished my piece on normalizing socialism in the USA.

BE IN MIND, this can change and be added on to in the future.

Opinions on the piece. I'm a bit eager to hear them.

Other urls found in this thread:

Why on earth would you sign your real name?

Let's take a look-see right here.

I'm suicidal (JOKE), I dont care much, If I really feel threatened i'll call the police or some shit.

And my name is already somewhat public, so not much harm.

It's good but i have one criticism and it's a nitpick.
you can call yourself a socialist but don't call yourself a communist ,unless around other commies, Bernie Sanders has removed the stigma of calling yourself a socialist. The rest of it is good and ill save it to share to others.

Evan 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧Brzostowski🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
I've already found a couple minor grammar errors, want me to be your pro editor?

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims.

Thanks, I guess your right but it still has negative connotations in the US. Id say jus be careful.

And thanks, any criticism is welcomed. This isn't a set in stone piece.

Really? I'd thought that be dine, if you want to then fine, and thank you.

Hide your power level.

Don't parade your power level. Don't trigger burgers with marxist jargon right off the bat obviously, but don't hide the fact that what you want is socialism. If they ask you if that's the same as communism, don't deny it.

You should try capitalize the names of songs and the writers who made them more often.
It's "overcome." No wonder Holla Forums thinks you're subhuman.

Lord have mercy on my soul, I did write this quite fast and thats seemingly coming to bite me in the ass.

I'll fix these up in due time, other then that, what do you think of the meat and potatoes of the piece?

Reread pic related and wallow in shame, kike.
I'm still in school and at some point in the near future will write a paper with better spelling and grammar than this pamphlet.

It's a good example towards the philosophy of not showing your power level. Appeal to the masses. Most Americans have liberal views but don't talk like they do.

Bit crass wording i'd say.

Those dubs aren't crass.

No. Bernie Sanders proved socialism is no longer a dirty word, and he used it to describe concepts that weren't socialism. There's no reason we can't use socialism to describe actual socialism in the post-Bernie USA.

American,” “American worker,” “Working class” and so on. Don’t Use
“Bourgeoisie,” use “the 1%” and the “Elite.”
Agreed, almost. The beauty of the words bourgeoisie and proletariat is that they describe classes in the Marxist sense - i.e., classes defined by one's relations to the means of production. Attacking "the 1%" is not a position held exclusively by communists; the smartest capitalists advocate for progressive taxation because they know they have to at least pretend they care about the little guy. We want to change the economic system, and progressive taxation is not going to do that. The closest word I can think of other than bourgeois is to describe someone who owns MoP is proprietor, which isn't any more normie-friendly. I agree with you, I just think we have to find words that describe what we mean.

You're right. I hate you. But you're right. I love the hammer and sickle and the Soviet flag connects with me emotionally, but this is true. THAT SAID, we ought not to abandon the color red. That's our fucking color, man, and fuck any GOP faggots who think it's theirs.

Sort of. We ought not to appeal to bourgeois cultural constructs such as the "American Dream". We do want to appeal to the ideal that American workers are hard workers who deserve the fruits of their labor.

don’t insult people, don't bash “Red Necks,” they face economic troubles
as well and can be converted as well.
This, this, this. No objections at all.

Again, it pains me to agree with you as a Leninist, but you are not wrong. Delonism is the happy medium we should follow. I'll die before letting the ancoms control the movement and disposing of Marxism, but Delonism and revolutionary syndicalism are a good way to make those libertarian appeals without abandoning Marx's ideas.

Yup. This is one thing I think Bordiga was spot on with regarding organic centralism. Unions and co-ops work goddammit, and it'll be easier to win support for our movement when people can see tangible examples of success in our society.

poor, volunteer at a homeless shelter, donated food to help people.
Practice what we believe and put forward the idea of mutual aid for those
in need

but much of the country is still very actually reactionary. Use dogwhisles
to reassure people you will help them but keep it more on the down low
when talking to large amounts of people. ECONOMICS is what is key to
helping us win. John Kerry could have won against Bush in 2004 but Bush
used gay marriage as a wedge to make Kerry lose support.
You're right and wrong. It depends on who you're talking to. We need to speak to people in their language, not ours. Where they are, not where we are. For more conservative workers, absoultely drop the idpol as fast as you can. For converting well-off liberal yuppies who never had to worry about economic problems and only have the capacity to understand idpol, they won't listen to you unless you appeal to idpol. Know your audience.

This is good advice for anything.

it is now is disorganized and retarded.
No. We need to take after the BPP and the IWW. Organize to help people and teach people their rights, and we must be organized. Antifa has no meaningful message for anyone who actually suffers from fascism.

and quite with the neo punk shit. Spiked hair and tattered leather jackets
don’t seem very welcoming.
Again, depends on the audience. The fact is, the modern worker doesn't look stereotypical clean. They're not necessarily Johnny fucking Rotten, but pony tails and tattoo sleeves are no longer alienating. Play it safe, but no need to go overboard.

presidency then we can most certainly spread socialism if were vocal
Trump was not memed to the presidency. The internet should be an organizing tools for people who are already comrades or at the very least sympathetic. Real change comes from real people. Talk to your neighbors and community members, that's what actually makes people listen. Nobody listens on the internet.

US foreign intervention in nations and promise to bring troops home.

honestly and not like a partisan robot. Be genuine.
Absolutely. The Communist Manifesto is unlike anything else Marx wrote because it's not theory, it's agitprop. It connected to the workers of the time in their language, and it did it with aggression. That's what we will do. Be a straight shooter, people respect that. To go back to Bernie, he was very good at being blunt about his message, and it worked.

or understand the work of. But call back to famous US left wingers to show
our history in the country. Whether it be Eugene Debs, Daniel Deleon, the
IWW, Murray bookchin and so on.
First of all, Debs is the only one on your list normies know. Second of all, there's nothing wrong with quoting Lenin, just don't say you're quoting him.

nations because of wars of private interest. The environment being
trashed and destroyed. Be graphic ion these images, the US needs shock
therapy to understand the true nature of capitalism nature.
Again, perfect.

liberals of this country have done just as much damage as the others
have. And with the democrats being as useless as they have been it’s a
very ample time to strike.

hinder the movement.

Sorry about the formatting. Hope it's still slightly readable.

Contested. "Socialism" is still taboo among older folk, but it's well on it's way to getting normalized. I'd shy away from it for now, but once people are on your side, don't try to trick them.
Agreed, though I'm not really familiar with rightist lingo.
Absolutely agreed! IMO the left's biggest mistake has been not building an American platform for the American people. As far as symbols go, I'm rather fond of the "Gear and Grain", and I'd reckon we could also repurpose and even meme-ify historical symbols; pic related.

As far as music goes, I'd also chalk up a number of popular songs from the Vietnam War era. Everyone's heard of Fortunate Son, but Buffalo Springfield's For What it's Worth is a magnificently mellow (and still relevant) anti-war song.
So much this. Internationalism just doesn't work in the US, and groups like the Tea Party have used successfully used patriotic iconography countless times.
Absolutely, positively agreed. As a Northerner who has a genuine appreciation for Dixie culture and history, I say we ought to embrace the South and their Appalacian cousins.

also their accents are sexy af
Agreed, but that's easier said than done. Most folks assume anything the government does is authoritarianism, and understandably so. We might need to highlight corruption in the government before we start discussing the logistics central planning.
Can confirm: I worked in a co-op this past summer, and it was easily he most fun I've ever had over break.
This is easier said than done, but I think it has merit. Local fame is an invaluable asset. I'd like to point out that Stalin was a renowned poet in his early days, to the point that he convinced a bank clerk to assist him in a robbery just because he was an admirer of his work.
Again easier said than done, but nonetheless crucial. The leader of a local leftist group ought to be a veritable encyclopedia of economics, ready to BTFO right-wingers whenever they try to ridicule their charge.
Agreed, one-hundred percent. Liberals have been a joke for at least the past two years now, and I figure that's unlikely to change. The average American demands someone who'll take action on their behalf, and it's up to us to sweep the rug from under the aut-right's feet.
I'd have to dispute this. Acts of crime and street violence prior to a revolution have been common since the War of Independence; the problem is public perception.
Ey man, leather jackets are fine if you can pull 'em off. But yeah, I agree. Comrades should strive to be genuine people, and at least attractive if you can help it. Have you seen photos of young Stalin?
I'm not very good at that, so I can't comment.
Agreed. Aside from some autistic vets who fly Gadsen Flags, I've yet to meet anyone who likes the wars in the Middle East. Apathy is our biggest obstacle here, as they've gone on long enough to be a fact of life at this point.
Again, tying back to my twelfth remark.
In other words, please don't think real life is Holla Forums. Especially in cappie-land, a comrade must be well-spoken and articulate enough to interact with layfolk.
Eyyup, yup, and yup. Again, the reason Trump got elected isn't because of his economics, but rather that he highlighted the plights of the average American (most percieved, some genuine) and promised to do something about it. The Left could do all of that and more, and once people realize we'd follow through, we'd be well on our way to winning their hearts and minds.

Apologies for the repetitive wording, I'm really not feeling to well. All told, however,

tl;dr - Every comrade owes it to themselves to read this if they want socialism in America.

Ya done good, OP. I can tell you've put your heart into this. Touch it up a little, and I'd distribute this far and wide.

Oh, fuck off already. You've literally done nothing but point out simple spelling errors that wouldn't detract from a rough draft in the slightest.

Don't worry, it's a long post and I understand having to do so. Other then that thank you.

Thank you for the words of encouragement. It means a lot. I got a lot of these ideas from Leftpol and here in Leftypol form the users. And the list can most certainly change and be fixed.

Fixed some grammar mistakes

I think it's generally good. You make some points that I make (as an American in the Deep South I may add). I do have some criticisms, though. If I don't respond to one of your points it implies I agree entirely and don't have anything to add.
Foremost, and others have pointed it out to already so I'm not going to bust your balls over it, you ought to proofread and revise before putting your name on something like this.

I disagree wholesale with point #1. Calling yourself a socialist will probably lose you some people, but so be it. Socialism is a movement for liberation of all the people who have been stepped on unrighteously by tyrants. The Founders wanted the same! If you can convince them capitalism is tyrannical, that the shape and form of tyranny has changed since the Revolution, and you stand against tyranny in the same way the Founders tried to, the dots practically connect themselves.

Minor criticism on point #2. Sometimes certain "dog-whistles" lead people to pretty wrong conclusions, like how criticizing "the 1%" too much on its own lead a lot of people into thinking capitalism itself is fine it's just not regulated enough. Just saying, be cautious about this sort of thing.

Agree on point #3. I'm partial to pure red flags and red stars myself. Hopefully that's not too "Soviet".

Now, on point #4 I have to both agree and disagree on just your wording here. There is a difference between "patriotism" and any sort of nationalism, including civic nationalism. After all, if "all men are created equal", why put the lives of people who love liberty who were born in one place over people who believe the same but were born elsewhere? I think you can be an "American patriot" while also expressing solidarity with liberatory socialists on the other side of the planet and engaging in mutual aid with them.

Skipping along to point #9, I think is correct in that it depends on who you are talking to. But you must understand, some right-wingers are completely fucking spooked about this sort of thing, and they aren't just going to not bring it up. You need to know how you will respond. Plus I would add two things: First, if you hold a position, why should you not be able to defend it? Second, socialism is pretty much inherently liberatory no matter who you are so long as you are not an elite (and even then you could make an argument it benefits you non-economically, so long as you aren't, you know, shot during a violent revolution).

Absolutely based OP, I agree on every point. We should start making threads to organize North American user’s along these points. Even if we can’t get our own org off the ground we can get involved to spread these ideas in already existing leftist circles.

What shall we call this bold new philosophy? Anarcho-Burgerism?

I'm kinda partial to "Socialism with American Characteristics".

beat me to it T B Q H

A similar movement is being discussed over here in Sweden. One that distances itself from idpol and bullshit, returns to the labor roots while developing a new, more modern, socialist view
A name that would be internationalistic would more than help us out too

Thank you for the points, and i'm kinda starting to regret the first point. Maybe more or less just say "Yeah were socialist, And?…" We should explain why we are and why socialism can be good for america.

I can see that, maybe phrases like "The Owner Class," and so on are good replacement, but i'm always open to suggestions.

Well I did propose the Huntington flag (Which is next to me) the red hits you immediately and it's message is simple. And it's history is very american.

Agreed, i should probably word this more carefully.

Agreed. Wording needs to be changed.

Thanks for the help!

CPUSA in the 30's used the Phrase "Communism is 20th Century Americanism," so maybe something around that line. But based mainly on De Leonism

Eh, kinda sounds like you slapped it together with duct tape
Why not just use private profiteers?

Eh, not really catchy tbh. But i'm open to suggestions.

I say we just stick to 'elite'. Simple enough. Gets the message across.

don't forget to overuse the phrase bootlicker

americans fucking hate it when you call them that

socialism with seppo characteristic


Should have elaborated more. The reason I say we stick to 'elite' is because it's already used by most Americans and it's very unlikely we'll come to a consensus for a replacement term (believe me, I've been part of like 5 different movements that ended up fizzling out because they got to autistic with stuff like this instead of just accepting things that are in common usage).

Don't call fellow workers bootlickers, not even your enemies unless you know for a fact they're universally hated (Richard Spencer for example). I would mostly use bootlicker on politicians who suck corporate dick.

bootlicker is bad. drives a significant portion of the population into our hands lol you should agree and amplifty and make the case for socialism going hand in hand with proper law and order. There's nothing wrong with law in order from your pov so long as it isn't defending private property or capital gains right? :^)

it works if you phrase it like they don't have to be

i.e. tell them not to be one

if someone admits that authority is a good thing, other americans are more likely to disagree with them because they're american

I think we shouldn't even mention international issues (in the context of helping other countries) yet else we'll be called 'globalists'. There's no reason for it to come up in this stage of the movement (past what OP proposes where we show the horrors of Capitalism).


maybe it's my personal experience but no this isn't true, personal autonomy always takes precedence over people trying to take their guns away, etc

this is what i meant

Americans needs to be aware of their crimes against other nations and accept responsibility. Apeal for humanity

Honestly I’m in favour of not having an eplicitly socialist name. I’ve had an idea for a movement that would essentially be what OP described, but with an added emphasis on individualism and working class autonomy. The essential message would be that the average person doesn’t need to rely on elite institutions for their prosperity, safety, or happiness, that these things can be achieved by themselves and through their communities. Kind of a communalist concept I suppose, and it also allows for the appropriation of right-libertarian rhetoric and imagery, which is popular in America. The name I thought of for it was “Popular Soveriegnty” or “Popular Democracy”.

I suppose that angle only works if you are a Libsoc though, but frankly I don’t want any Leninists shitting up the movement anyway.

Don't try and put the blame on the people because you'll make them hate you. People are tired of shame culture. Instead put the blame on the elite.

use "unionism" or "syndicalism" tbh
communalist (and egoist lmao)angles don't work as well as ones with existing structure in america

I have two other things to add which I forget here. First, it's probably a good idea not to be openly hostile to religion and especially religious people for their religion. After all, if religion truly is just the "opium of the people", it will wither away once capitalism is abolished and people are freed. Assuming you are an atheist yourself, of course. All I'm saying is, keep general debates about whether God exists to religious debates, but still try and counteract the extremities of religious fascism everywhere of course. A lot of Christians, for example, who you will be dealing with, are not reactionaries. I would say, don't exclude them.

Second, I think a more effective alternative to something like Antifa would be organization akin to that of the original Black Panthers: a force specifically for defending your communities against tyranny. Pic related. This should garner much more sympathy for your movement. Especially from the people you are protecting!

"Socialism with American Characteristics" is more meme-tier really, your suggestion is going the right direction. CPUSA's literal only strong point in my view was their attempts to wrap socialism in an American flag, something I think they did pretty well.

Once we get big enough to have a good amount of money we need to set up some service through the internet and phone where people like the elderly or single fathers can call us for help if they end up homeless or whatever so long as they allow their story to be told by our social media and news stations.

This. Socialism With American Characteristics should definitely include a Liberation Theology element.

I am an atheist but I have no problem with religious people who are civil. I have no tolerance for religion in government or extremism.

Good point. We need to look at the most beloved aspects of American history and mythology, find the similarities and parallels with Socialism/Communism, then use these to our advantage. Did our forefathers fight for 'no taxation without representation' or 'no taxation for corporations?' Slogans like this will get a lot of people on our side.

Also the religion point is great. We're going to get a lot of support from black and hispanic communities who are very religious so we need to appeal to that as much as possible.

The good thing about Marxism is that you can celebrate people who weren’t socialists as long as they were revolutionary in their time. That’s why the Jacobins, Cromwell, and the founding fathers were all /ourguys/ despite being bourgeois liberals. A bourgeois liberal in 1776 was revolutionary and a comrade.

a better term for the elite would be the nobility if you're going personify capitalism. Elites is a little vague and nothing rubs seppos the wrong way like unearned, unjust authority. A lot of those you'd consider elites/nobility are very easy to look up and profile and they promote very anti-american(anti-whig) ideals and you can wrap this around to the greater internationalist cause because those nobles in america actually have connections back in Europe and it makes it look like a betrayal of the american revolution.

those self-same muh guns type jerk off leo's who kill niggers et al. Libertarians are not opposed to police per say, but tyrannical overreach. Honestly they'd prefer to return to the days of less militarized cops but have no hope of doing so or influencing the establishment so they typically vote with their feet and exit. (white&capital flight). Provide an alternative (voice) and you will be golden.

Don't be too ashamed of the socialist word. Make it an issue of the anachronistic left-right dichotomy controlling thought, and that you aren't so different after all. And that there's nothing wrong with american traditions like markets and skin-in-the-game small businesses. appropriate minarchism.
gets it.

As for ethnic issues, you should take a leaf out of lenin's page and and support autonomous oblasts.

American Socialism

Just a minor suggestion before I call it a night: How's about explicating our stance on gun control? Most Americans (even Liberals) love their guns, but up till now, pushes for pro-gun legislation have largely been the domain of Libertarians, and most folks think "leftism" inherently means disarming the populace. I'd reckon we could earn significant support if we fixed that.

Pic related. It's a shame so much of Marx's work is clothed in archaic verbiage; his concepts would still prove quite popular if translated into the modern word.

I was going to contest that, but I figure you know what you're talking about. Though IMO we oughta mix it in with "business owners" so we don't come off as entitled. Remember, the problem isn't their wealth, but rather their exploitation of the average American.

Gee, reeally activated my almonds there, gomrade. :D

I honestly think we're pondering this a little too hard. Words aren't some code you blurt out to turn someone into a socialist; they have context, they have nuance. Perseverating over small stuff distracts you from the person you're trying to convince.

Americans are tired of the constant wars in the Middle East though. Highlighting how that conflict plays directly into Porky's hands might be instrumental to discrediting hawkish politicians in both major parties.

Pure liberalism. To quote Hotel Rwanda,

I made another autistic thread about the same topic and I do say OP you did a great job a complying a list that was easy to read. Make the message straightforward and simple. Thats the best advice I can give. People don't want to read paragraphs

not talking about libertarians so much as boomers

I think someone showed me it to help me. It was good. And thank you :)

Agreed, and I think my first image better illustrates it that most socialists aren't opposed to gun ownership. My second image may or may not be better quality than yours for quoting Marx specifically.
Oh, and if you ever run into a Reagan-loving Republican type, be sure to inform them that he supported banning open-carry when he was governor of California. They typically don't have a response.

One really good point to bring up is exporting work to places like Brazil and China when talking to more right wing people. This is something that both of us can agree is bad, but we think the problem lies in Capitalism itself.

Don't worry comrade, I've saved 'em both. ^^

They're perfect!

Information must be distributed user, this is the reason why I think copyrights and patents are bullshit. You can never truly "own" an idea, we all are inspired by something. I think this is a good that this is a good forum for people to read and put out ideas. I've gotten a lot of good ideas from the internet in general and if we have to "steal' to perfect our ideals so be it. I realize no one person can change the world but we can improve on each others' praxis.
"Good artist copy, great artist steal" is what Picasso said, I think it holds up.

Not to mention Picasso was /ourguy I'll take his opinion highly.

Claim that gun control belongs to the realm of fascists lel

More seriously though agree and amplify when they talk about the rights to bear arms and militias. When talking to idpol liberals talk about how minorities are disproportionately affected.

Wrong approach imo, it doesn't delineate between unjust ownership and meritocratic owners. You're better off to impersonalize this one and discuss the issues with the system and capital accumulation. If asked to personify them bring up elites/nobilty that use their power to destablize other countries and their own for their own gain or social atomization (the destruction of the old family unit; extended family). You really want to separate yourselves here from social democrats in regards to social welfare, point out that they are capitalists and they stand for things like private ownership of the federal banking system.

Tends to be an issue with socialists. By nature you tend to fit into specific personality types that predispose you to this and socialism.

Point out that this is bipartisan stance and that both sides are essentially mensheviks and on the neocon side actually have connections to trots.

Exactly, you have to connect the dots for people. Most think that people in those situations are irredeemable.

Boomers will all be dead soon. Not exactly a revolutionary body either.

Images I drew Awhile ago.

1. definitely not
2. yeah but we shouldn't be afraid of educating curious comrades, propaganda rhetoric should not contain these words though
3. Yeah, that should be pretty obvious, not even ☭TANKIE☭ groups like the PSL use old symbols. Red cannot be given up though.
4. No, this only serves to solidify an ideology that suits the needs of the ruling class. Constantly attacking american history is ill-advised, but not maintain a critic of "Americanism" cedes a lot of ideological ground.
5. Yeah this should be obvious, plenty of movements are already doing this
6. I really hate this dichotomy, because at the moment it means nothing. Just organize the working class, worrying about being "authoritarian" is a waste of time.
7. Yeah
8. This is probably the best starting point for left groups imo
9. No, that's flat out ridiculous
10. Yeah
11. Antifa is by definition disorganized, its a movement not an organization. Violence against elderly republicans and generic GOP voters is obviously ridiculous.
12. No one but try hard anarchists do this, and they're not really part of the "left" since they're so non-participatory, imo
13. Definitely being done already, twitter is solidly in control of left voices, even if the company itself often panders to right wing figures. It helps that the most active right wing figures are absolute dipshits, so its not hard to call them out.
14. Yeah
15. Yeah but don't use slurs, literally nothing to gain
16. Its amazing you say this since the average american is immensely more likely to know Lenin or Stalin then Debs or DeLeon, I literally didn't know who DeLeon was until I came here. Debs is a good start, but come on now don't act like he's somehow famous.
17. Yeah
18. Definitely already being done, definitely should continue. I think this whole movement where politicians in both major parties as well as partisan celebrities are being revealed as rapists and sexual predators presents an excellent opportunity to convert some disillusioned people.
19. I recommended everyone watch FinnBol's idpol video, I think its a pretty good take and about the position all Marxists should take regarding "idpol" movements. I hope we can all agree that BLM is a good movement and to dismiss it as idpol is ridiculous, especially since the counter-movement to it is literal bourgeois defense of police (Blue Lives Matter) or basic misunderstanding of what BLM is about (All Lives Matter). Certainly it isn't perfect, and some of the activists are obnoxious, but so was the BPP and I think we all agree they rocked.

*13. in control by left voices i mean

Looks like someone got mad from this thread

Holla Forumsyps express themselves when triggered amazingly

Don't reply just report.

Keep in mind it only takes around 10% of a population for a successful revolution and right now we have around 58% support among the youth (which will likely rise ever higher with Trump as president).

yeah so long as you effectively apply force with appropriate force multipliers. Problem is a good percentage of those 58% are lemmings and another non-trivial portion are counter-productive.

For the record a lot of us hate trannies. We're not SJWs just because we're economically left.

Interesting how fixated you fags are at homosexuality and cucking

Well it's not so much just winning a revolution and/or elections, you also need community programs, militias, etc. so you can gather support outside of, well, the state and electoral politics. You're going to want to build support in culture, in the workplace etc. is what I'm getting at.

This is a great jump off point to bring the issue of private property to blue collar "Trump voter" folks without immediately sounding too radical.

"All the manufacturing work that used to be done in America is outsourced over to China and Mexico now. All over the country now you'll find these once-great American factories that still have all the machines in them, and they're all just sitting there collecting rust. You can see pictures of it online. So here's the question - if the plant's just going to rust anyway, what's to say that when your boss says he's moving the plant to Mexico and everybody's fired, you let him build his plant in Mexico, and then the next day you and your coworkers just show up to work anyway and run the plant for yourselves?

Here's what would happen: the boss who owns the plant, probably lives out in a waterfront house in California, crunched some numbers (or just paid an accountant, he doesn't have to know shit) and found out that instead of having to pay $20 bucks an hour to American workers, he can build in Mexico and only have to pay $4 bucks an hour, and with this, he can squeeze enough money out of the Mexican workers to buy a new yacht. When you and your coworkers occupy the American plant and run it for yourselves, not him, what he's going to do is he's going to call the government and have them force you out of the factory, leave it to rust, because he owns the property title to it, and he'd rather have it not be used at all than used in competition with him."

can you explain socialism to me
ive trid learning about it from people i know but all i really get is
and of course
i don't really know the difference between socialism or communism, or what either are for that manner all that really come to mind are the soviets, che and mao.

Oh BOY do you have a lot to read up on user!
Glad you decided to educate yourself, welcome, have complimentary leninade

any books you suggest i read, i guess Marx is obligatory, but i don't know where i would go from there

das kapital. you might need annotated notes though

keeping in mind that das kapital is basically the extension of previous economic theses

I think all socialist tendencies can be summed up in one sentence:
Abolition of human relations as slaves to profit, replacing that with relations that benefit everyone the most.
The practical terms of how to achieve that are what socialists differ on.

There's a manga of das kapital I would recommend. It's very, VERY entry level and doesn't cover nearly enough to fully explain the capitalist system. But it's a chill read and gives you a general idea of what socialism is against.

I'm sort of new so I may be way off but from my understanding Capitalism has created a system similar to feudalism where instead of lords having all the land (and means to labour through agriculture) and peasants honoring their lords by living on that land and paying a tax to the lords you have feudalism where corporations own the land/properties where their products are produced (factories) and workers give up a portion of their living wages to the corporations (through extremely low wages caused by those corporations lobbying the government). This has led to multiple crises as corporations are running out of land and resources to bring under their control as they've spread to the second and third world and workers can no longer afford to buy the products the corporations produce meaning that profit is nearly impossible in some companies. Communism seeks to create a stateless society where the workers collectively own the means of production (factories, farms, etc) so they won't be exploited and so the extreme drive for profit won't lead to the insanity our economy is in today.

Piggybacking off that, I also think it's exceedingly important to frame these and other societal ailments (unemployment, outsourcing, homelessness, lack of access to healthcare) as the fault of Capitalism. 'What we have here', as one ought to paraphrase, 'is an system that values the accumulation of personal wealth over the fulfillment of human needs. Stuff like that is profitable, so it's to be expected.'

Alternatively, I've also had some success with: "Well obviously they're not gonna cover your costs; it wouldn't be profitable to do otherwise."

People hate that word, "profitable". The sorta strong emotion it evokes will sow the seeds for socialist sympathy.

Good shit, comrade. You should get 'em digitized sometime. :D

Someone's afraid. Good.

Don't feed the trolls, folks. If you give them even an inkling of attention, they'll derail the whole thread.

< Welcome! Now go educate yourself.


IMO Marx's work is important, but his ideas are clothed in such archaic verbiage that only a seasoned reader could pick 'em apart. If you're looking for an easier read and have a basic grasp of economics, I'd recommend Cockshott's Towards a New Socialism, which pretty much explains what living in a libertarian socialist country would look like.

Also this.

Does your strategy involve psychedelics and magick?

thanks man, ill get myself a copy

makes sense

ill try finding that also

archaic, language never really bothered me all too much. i'm quite willing to educate myself, i just want some guidance.

Here's a great link to some material. I would personally recommend reading the Communist Manifesto and then Capital, then moving on to other works.

Marx works were written for people who had education, das kapital wasn't meant to be a pamphlet for workers to read, more an exposé of capitalism and the bourg. It's heavy, really fucking heavy, and dense as all hell. I'd say das kapital should be the fourth or fifth book a person who wants to learn should read

thanks for the advice

It seems like we ought to be able to modernize and condense Marx's analysis in Capital. I'm sure it's been tried, does anyone know if this has been done well?

There's no real need for it tbh. It coveres the business aspect of the bourg and not the social implications or societal changes. As long as we live under capitalism, it will be… fuck I forget the word, applicable? current? timeless? Shie it's 9 am been up for 30 hours

the boomer mindset is toxic and terminal but parts such as what i mentioned are passed on

Obviously I don't think it can be replaced, but surly we can make the ideas more accessible. Also, you know, it's been a while. There have been some important developments since Capital was written.

That's wishful thinking. They won't die soon enough! Obviously I'm excluding boomer comrades from this statement.

If you want something a lot lighter that'll give you some basic Marxist concepts, the first book related to this I read was Wage Labor & Capital, also by Marx. It's like, 30 pages.

A book could probably be written, summarizing das kapital and explaining how it's RELEVANT (that's the word! We did it reddit!) today to everyday events. Bosses stealing from workers, exploiting nature for profit, banks having money only in theory, how the bubble expands and pops etc etc

shot, ill read that first then

Certainly Marx, as a scientist, was writing Capital today he would include data from the last century, no?

Sure, but that wouldn't change the endresults

No doubt, comrade.

I only read the version in the OP, so some of this post may be outdated.
I think the usefulness of dog whistles has been vastly overblown by journos writing crap articles calling everything a dog whistle. (I don't believe Trump did more consciously than appealing to fairly mainstream anti-immigration views, not literal Neonazis). You can use phrases with double-meaning to appeal, for instance, to the views of Christian fundies and more mainstream people at the same time, but if these meanings are somewhat in conflict you can't really implement both. So, if your intent isn't just getting votes or money and then doing whatever with that, but actually working with the people that flock to you, and more mainstream people likely being the bigger part, this will probably fail. As for your "examples": Working class is not a dog whistle for proletariat, it literally is the same concept in less archaic language. I can say you're an asshole or I can say to whomst it may concerneth, thoust arest une Hole d'Arse, neither is a dog whistle for the other.
Guess I'll have to check out medication soon, I've been trying Regaine for some time and it doesn't do shit :(
Ehrm, you now they got invaded? So, us-versus-them attitude had some very direct and real grounding. If you got invaded, feel free to drum up pride in your nation.
Strong agreement here. I got a question though: Why are there double-spaces between all words?
>Put​ ​ forward​ ​ a ​ ​ anit-authoritarian​ ​ brand​ ​ of​ ​ socialism.​
You probably mean Anita-Authoritarian Socialism: grey blocks everywhere and no wiggling tetas in video games. Oh no. There are a lot of typos in the text (dose for does, lean up for clean up, donated for donate, quite for quiet, apoint for a point, quite for quit, ion for in, "true nature of capitalism nature", Were​ for We are, names of people and American not capitalized, Co-Operatives and Dog and Community and Sure capitalized for no reason).

If people associate Socialism mostly with the USSR and he isn't really a fan of that, he isn't really concealing his views by not using the term.

np qt.

Your English is not great, but I agree with all points. Add absolute protection of freedom of expression and ownership of firearms and you've got a complete document.

This manifesto is specifically for socialists, particularly American socialists.

Pic related

Considering she was a statist I am surprised she said that.

Rosa is probably closer to you anarchists than to ☭TANKIE☭s.

We need to emphasize the democratic nature of communism. Most burgers associate communism with famines and ruthless dictators because of anti-com propaganda. We need to emphasize co-ops and unions because they are democratic. I've a particular attachment to the 'government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from this earth' bit from Lincoln. Describe yourself as libertarian and pro-freedom.

(replying to myself)
>_< Something like that always happens when I complain about typos. So, now I've taken a look at and there are a few typos corrected (and more names capitalized, though not all yet, e. g. bookchin), but most are still there. Two other small things: The name is Ho Chi Minh and I've never seen rebuttal as a verb. The verb is just rebut.

shot man, well ill do some more reading.
i feel better knowing that you lot aren't trying to take my liberties away. what got me about most libertarians is that they didnt care about people getting exploited for profit. i guess ill be seeing you guys around

To be fair, there have been a few ruthless dictators creating 'state socialism' which led to famines and no freedom.

Mostly Mao and mostly because he was really fucking dumb. But Marxism-Leninism was specifically designed for an agrarian autocracy with a mostly illiterate population. It has no bearing on late capitalism.


he would certainly take into account all the developments in technology since the century of his work.

Whats the case for appealing to boomer class interests?

communism is the end of history bucko. The end of a dialectical process to reach a conflict free society and solve hobbes social problem.

To be fair Tsarist Russia under Whitte was making massive strides hence the menshevik position. That png is cancer though lol the social problem is clearly human nature, we aren't designed to live in the societies in and manner we do. hence the constant instability of all social arrangements.

or is it the beginning?

Communism is merely the next stage. Treating it like the rapture is counterproductive.




Why would you do that to a perfectly good p90?

ah two men of culture I see

As long as you're not modifying a historical firearm, take it as you like it. Type 56 Chinese Army SKS? DO NOT MODIFY. Newly made Norico SKS fresh off the conveyor belt? Sure, paint it pink and throw stickers of your waifu on there.

But you should also be clear common conceptions of Socialism/Communism are very warped and inaccurate. It's not when the gubermend does stuff/when the gubermend does all the stuff. RDW had the right idea when he said that the manifesto of 21st Century socialism should be "democratize the enterprise"… which is obviously not all Socialism is, I'd say that it being the movement to abolish the Law of Value is also important, but democratic control of the means of production is a good selling point.

Nice dubs. Also, an important suggestion.
Instead of bourgeoisie and proletariat use employer and employee. It's basically accurate and communicates something the average joe can understand. Also, everyone hates their boss, we need to appeal to that.

Christian Socialism is the greatest boon to American Socialism that could be imagined. The amount of burgers for whom Christ dominates their life is by far the majority. It is very important to stress how Un-Christian capitalism is and how the words of Jesus on the mount echo a crude simplification of Marxism.


I don't think the description LeftCommunist or Council Communist is too inaccurate for Rosa, however both terms are pretty nebulous and vague.

B-but if you have a leader it is lidderely state gapitalism

Lets proof read it and perhaps fix the formating and we good! Also, maybe add something about how Americans love shit like free speech or somth, like the Rosa quote posted.
Maybe we could make it look all snazzy and realize it as a pamphlet or something?

I think Wolff is right when he says the best way to portray socialism is as "Economic Democracy". Americans love to think of themselves as the pioneers and leaders of democracy (despite this not being the case). Whenever I talk to fence-sitting liberals, the "economic democracy" argument is the most effective. With conservatives the "Christian Socialism" argument is most effective, especially with Catholics seeing as the current Pope is probably the most (economically) left-wing for over a millenium.

Ultimately, I think the approach socialists should take should mirror that of the Parti Socialiste in France during the 70s, promoting a popular front with Democratic Socialists in the lead. Mitterand got crushed because France wasn't economically and politically strong enough to defeat the "capital strike" that occurred after his big reforms. The US is far more powerful and is not tied up in constricting transnational organizations like France was (Mitterand couldn't impose tarriffs on foriegn goods without leaving the EEC; he said that he was forced to choose between building Europe and building Socialism, and chose the former because of the capital strike).

The United States is the ONLY country in which socialism can come about democratically simply because it has the economic power to resist the bourgeoisie that France didn't, and is not subject to massive international inference like Chile. This doesn't mean that electoralism should be abandoned elsewhere, but simply that expecting Corbyn or Melenchon to be able to bring about socialism single-handedly is an economic impossibility outside of a global economic meltdown.

Not having leading figures isnt what defines libertarian socialism you doof. There will always be leaders. Read Bookchin


Can't believe these dub-trip-dubs went unchecked…
Sage for not contributing

Seems like the thread has somewhat drifted from it's original purpose, Id say it be best to get back on track.

Post your opinions, criticism and things to dd to it. It's all appreciated.


Don't forget: use China as a model for the future of socialism, seeing as how it censored Obama's inaugural address. Am I right?

I think we should make arrangements to put our ideas into practice. At the very least set up channels of communication for interested comrades in North America.

What do you guys think of Democratic Socialists of America? I'm thinking of joining my city's chapter. They're a little too idpol for me but they're the biggest Socialist organization in the US right now so maybe we could join up with them and help them with some of the points we've made in this thread.

Join them. Its a big tent org and the chapters vary in radicalism and ideology. There are also a bunch on different caucuses with in the org like you could look into like the Communist caucus and the Libertarian Socialist caucus. There are def some anti idpol or at least peps that are highly critical of idpol. And if you dont like the org you can always just leave.
But really, its the largest left wing org the US has seen in decades, its incredibly exiting to see them get larger, even if they are filled with socdems.

Dre that "Come and Take it" flag.

I know this might be a difficult task, but do you think it is possible or necessary to reradicalize the cpusa They have an easy to remember name, a long history, and a pre existing base of support.

I think this short document is a good start and it should be collectively developed by our community, if OP gives permission of course.

Like, we should be discussing points and making a chapter for each one detailing our positions in length using other works as a point of reference and doing exhaustive historical context.

Also, here are some very basic templates that could be used (with some flexibility of course):


Try the corporate class.

I dont mind, but I only would like if my name stays just to remind people who began it.

This is absolutely amazing.

What exactly am I looking at, comrade?

I am not psyops or anything like that but it's impossible. The Red Scare is too ingrained into the minds of retards and Americans are too stupid to know anything else.

They will only keep voting for two parties one right after the other and wallowing in their own shit.

The best thing to do is wipe America and start over.

This mentality has to fucking die. What the fuck are our American comrades supposed to do, nothing? Just sit back and watch as their counties working class continues to live under capitalist hell?
Did you know that this narrative, that the US is a unsalvageable reactionary shithole that should just be wiped of the earth, was commonplace about Russia amongst european leftists in the years leading up to the Russian Revolution? German socialists where against the first world war, until Russia declared war on Germany, as they thought of Russia as the beacon of reaction in the world and that it was ok for german workers to die in a war against Russia. Five years later, and Russia was at the forefront of Socialist revolution in the world.
So fuck of you pessimist shit. I stand with the American workers against capitalism.

Read this post.



Completely agree. This "fuck americans" sentiment is nothing less than idpol garbage, the equivalent of a BLM member shouting "fuck white people". While it's true Americans have been reactionary for quite some time, material conditions in the US are worsening, and due to its moribund political system, these growing problems cannot simply reformed away.

Daily reminder that Americans literally had to be stabbed, shot, imprisoned, and executed to keep them from adopting socialism. A comprehensive security and propaganda apparatus is literally the only thing preventing the country from going red.

I don't like the points I've seen in this thread, your pdf seems like a bad plan overall. This is the opportunists guide to attempting "socialism". I'll download it though, and look over it.
No, do not do this. Call yourself a socialist. Socialism will not succeed by taking advantage of the U.S. democracy, or any other capitalist states democracy. Republicans and Democrats both serve bourgeois interests, and only differ in their methods of bringing them to fruition.
No, do not do this. When you use words like "the 1%" you are ignoring actual class struggle. There are bourgeois which fall below the 1%, and proletarians in the 1%.
This is not a good idea. Many socialist revolutions were very successful, and very Socialist. There is no reason to abandon these to pander to bourgeois concepts. I could agree with not flaunting these things, definitely no fetishizing them.
This should be done carefully, if at all. Patriotism is 90% bullshit, and supports the present state of things. This is not good praxis.
I agree that a diverse set of people should be "marketed" to, but we should definitely talk towards a person's interests. The problems facing a 23 year old college student are not like those of a 40 year old high school dropouts interests. It is undialectical to treat two groups as having the same relation to a Socialist party.
As opposed to what from of Socialism? No one is popularly arguing for a system they see as totalitarian. I see this as a little crack to wedge in pacifist ideologies.
I don't know much about them other than they will not bring Socialism and that they are routinely beaten by Capitalist companies. Doesn't seem like good praxis.
Sure, do things. That is good praxis, as long as it doesn't turn into "Hey boys let's fix some potholes and talk about being super radical".
No, issues must be tackled or they quickly get out of control due to a lack of response. "What is the socialist position on racism? I don't know but here is a sound bite that suggests it's shit". This is the parties future under this.
Good. Socialists should, rightly so, be seen as having the answers. If some is incapable of doing so, they shouldn't be speaking.
Sure, easier said than done.
Look, not all of us want to be arrested when our names our linked to our actions, Evan. It's not about being a pussy or being a man, it's about getting slammed or continuing to be an effective agent.
I agree completely. Dress normally, dress functionally.
Trump wasn't memed into presidency, but these are fine approaches.
Identity politics can not be ignored, but they must be viewed through a dialectical and material lens, focusing on class struggle. Idpol can not take precedence.
Overall criticism, you would need to write more for the individual points and the theory behind them, if you wanted this to be a serious thing. The title is an absolute mess, smells slightly of larping. Grammar is not generally well done.

So basically you want to keep doing what every pissant leftist party in the West has been doing unsuccessfully for the past 70 years?

You can eat my ass like groceries. You're literally a revisionist, defend any of this, anytime.


If you're going to take that out of context of my previous posting, I won't talk to you. I said, terms like "the 1%" do not represent the bourgeois, and are the exact types of language that is used to push very, very no socialist points of view. "Woah guys, I'm a business owner, not the 1%". Language must be precise, the words aren't complicated. The only fancy words I know for socialism is "dialectical, bourgeois, proletariat". It isn't difficult. If the public can't learn three words, socialism is 100% doimed with any current tactics.
Of course flags aren't theory, do not strawman me. I have nothing on this and do not have to entertain you.

“1%” was offered as a possible alternative to “bourgeoisie”, nobody was saying that it was the only option for a dog whistle term. If you have a problem with that term then fine, I would probably agree with you. But that’s different from saying that the use of dog whistles is bad in and of itself.

A part of me wanted to say "some of this is fine in small amounts", but with the tone of the "manifesto" it seemed more like they were really dedicated to the idea, and I would rather be heavy handed than hedging. If you look at my post, I actually never mentioned dog whistles.

You did say not to replace words though, when the past shows that this is actually an extremely successful tactic. Porkies have been shilling neoliberalism for the past 30 years by saying they support “small business” and “economic freedom”. Replacing words is proven to be effective.

Honestly, if you want to normalize it, you should really understand how attached Americans are to "individualism", even if it's a bourgeois notion of it. Replacing it with a Stirnerist understanding could prove useful. I've actually turned more Americans on to socialism and communism by showing how capitalism limits them as individuals. Hell, we should just call it "liberty" in the work place. Burgers love liberty.

Also, checkem

Honestly I don’t think individualism and socialism are incompatible. I mean my main argument for socialism comes from primarily classical liberal sources.

< No, do not do this. When you use words like "the 1%" you are ignoring actual class struggle. There are bourgeois which fall below the 1%, and proletarians in the 1%.

Literally nobody uses the words "bourgeois" and "proletariat" anymore outside this board, though. Bringing them into serious political discourse will make you sound like a joke at best, a Stalinist at worst.

< This is not a good idea. Many socialist revolutions were very successful, and very Socialist. There is no reason to abandon these to pander to bourgeois concepts. I could agree with not flaunting these things, definitely no fetishizing them.

How on earth does that relate to modernizing socialist symbols for a new era? Socialism isn't some religion with immutable aesthetics; on the contrary, its motifs and verbiage must adapt to the culture and time period it gains traction within.

< This should be done carefully, if at all. Patriotism is 90% bullshit, and supports the present state of things. This is not good praxis.

Patriotism is woven into the fabric of American culture. While that might currently be exploited to further bourgeois interests, not co-opting it would deprive us of a tremendous asset. This isn't just good praxis, it's realpolitik.

< I agree that a diverse set of people should be "marketed" to, but we should definitely talk towards a person's interests. The problems facing a 23 year old college student are not like those of a 40 year old high school dropouts interests. It is undialectical to treat two groups as having the same relation to a Socialist party.

Isn't that a given, though? Words aren't some sort of magic code you speak to turn someone into a socialist; they have context and nuance. I'd imagine even an amateur orator would realize that the elderly don't really care about student loans, and that college graduates aren't all that concerned about pension plans at that stage in their life.

< As opposed to what from of Socialism? No one is popularly arguing for a system they see as totalitarian. I see this as a little crack to wedge in pacifist ideologies.

I believe what OP meant is that we ought to try and change public perception of the word. Most folks, if they don't think "socialism" is when the government does stuff, imagine "socialism" (and "Marxism", and especially "Communism") as an authoritarian police state a la the USSR. We'll win plenty more hearts and minds if we bring Libertarian Socialism into political parlance.

< Sure, do things. That is good praxis, as long as it doesn't turn into "Hey boys let's fix some potholes and talk about being super radical".

While I agree, I'd argue that you're missing his point. Charities naturally accrue people who're the most dissatisfied with the current state of affairs. As someone who works with a church in the ghetto, I've had the opportunity to talk with dozens of underprivileged individuals and slip socialist concepts into casual conversation. My favorite line is that I love working there because it's very fulfilling work, "but sadly, you don't get paid unless you make money for someone else."

Chatter like that doesn't exist in a vacuum. If your words strike a chord, people will repeat them.


< No, issues must be tackled or they quickly get out of control due to a lack of response. "What is the socialist position on racism? I don't know but here is a sound bite that suggests it's shit". This is the parties future under this.

Ahh, now this is true! IMO if the topic comes up, one of the best things we can do is acknowledge the material conditions that led to minorities being consistently disadvantaged. Slavery was awful, but the practice only continued in spirit with Jim Crow Laws. Sharecropping reduced entire communities of liberated slaves to serfs for the local landowner, and redlining ensured minorities (especially poor blacks) would never escape the inner cities and start businesses. However, only a very select handful of whites owned plantations during that era, and practices like sharecropping were only adopted to profit off a people who, up till that point, hadn't known anything save farming and servitude. Time and time again, the question of racism has not been one of "white versus black", but rather "the rich versus some easily-exploitable subset of the poor".

In truth, the businessman still sees minorities as he does the rest of us: Resources to be exploited.

< Sure, easier said than done.


< Look, not all of us want to be arrested when our names our linked to our actions, Evan. It's not about being a pussy or being a man, it's about getting slammed or continuing to be an effective agent.

Who-hoa there, famalam. I dunno if you've heard, but people generally don't trust folks who hide their faces. It's the same reason movie villains tend to wear sunglasses, or enemies in shooter games don balaclavas or full-face masks: By hiding their face (especially their eyes), they obscure the most important and identifying features of a human face.

Naturally there are exceptions to this rule, but they generally don't arise unless you're doing something violent. And even so, do you really think there would be painting and statues of Lenin if he hid his face?

< I don't like the points I've seen in this thread, your pdf seems like a bad plan overall. This is the opportunists guide to attempting "socialism".
< Overall criticism, you would need to write more for the individual points … if you wanted this to be a serious thing. The title is an absolute mess, smells slightly of larping. Grammar is not generally well done.

Oh, fuck off already. This is this is obviously OP's rough draft, so nitpicking grammar is retarded. And if anything, its tenets could only dissuade LARPing.

< you would need to write more for the individual points and the theory behind them

OP rightfully assumes his audience is comprised of American leftists with some knowledge of history, their native culture, and economic theory. Including the lattermost would be superfluous, as the document isn't meant for layfolk.

While I understand (and even agree with one of) the criticisms you've levied against OP, overall I think your purism is undialectical. American Socialism demands adaptation to American material conditions, and embracing the Hammer and Sickle while remaining wary about patriotism would send your party careening into the dustbin of history.

But you're obviously a caustic person who can't adapt his praxis to material conditions. Trying to convince you is an effort in futility.

good manifesto, I agree with it mostly especially:
but much of the country is still very actually reactionary. Use dogwhisles
to reassure people you will help them but keep it more on the down low
when talking to large amounts of people. ECONOMICS is what is key to
helping us win. John Kerry could have won against Bush in 2004 but Bush
used gay marriage as a wedge to make Kerry lose support.
quite = quiet tho. Please fix grammar/spelling typos. Also add some stuff about aesthetics/graphics

Read Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

this is all wrong wrong wrong wrong

We need to keep using hammer and sickle memorabilia because those are still super relevant proletariat tools in 2017

We need to keep the russian names and words and vocabulary everywhere because dropping random russian words is extremely palatable to the typical prole

Everything must be like how it was 100 years ago because thats when we were the most successful, if it worked back then why change things??

Also patriotism is nationalist dogwhistling and needs to be abolished, "America" is basically the great satan and thats what will unite the proles, and separate them from the counterrevolutionaries (mostly whites)

Quality shitpost.

Mind if I type up a spell-checked prettified version? I'll keep your name on it.

prove me wrong

Minorities and POC have most to gain from revolution since they already hate the concept of "America" ie white supremacist nation with a history of oppressing them, and America will never stop oppressing them for as long as it's continued to exist

Whites are the most egregious with their patriotism, upholding racial history and practices (statues, laws, police), and so on.

And of course, electing Trump.

leftist revolution is impossible in America because "America" is toxic

Someone else already did.

You can't cite another example of replacing words to be effective when I had a very clear logic for why it isn't a good idea. It twists the meanings of proletarian and bourgeois to no longer fit the categories they cover when you use them like this. This is textbook bourgeois entryism, intentional or not. I'm not saying OP is some sort of false flag, but that is what this does.

You don't have to always say proletariat and bourgeois. You can just say workers and business owners (probably a better choice) or w/e, you just can't use terms that do not convey the original meaning. Even the ones I mentioned kind of suck, but not as much as using bourgeois concepts of class in place of Socialist ones.
When people say drop the symbols of old they are 90% of the time they type of people who will diss past socialist states for the slightest liberal appreciation, I was being preemptive, honestly. I'd love to see a better symbol than the hammer and sickle though, lmao.
This is not happening, no good will come of this. It is woven into American society precisely because it supports the present state of things, it will not help a socialist party.
He said not to pander, and I made it clear that it is important that we "pander" to specific interests.
If there is a word that is lost, it is libertarian. Americans will get confused if you call yourself a libertarian socialist. The word is just different over here.
No I didn't, I'm referring to Anarchist efforts at hands on community action (forgot the special phrase) that inevitably devolved into a useless mess.
Bad example man.
So, in your mind, they should guarantee arrest so people can see their face? I can't imagine you ever getting people on board with this. If the masks are really that much of a turnoff then antifa just won't work as insurectionarry protest.
I literally mentioned the grammar once, generally.
Then it is useless. If I already understood and agreed with OP, we wouldn't have this thread. I don't agree with OP, which is exactly why I made this reply.
Lmao, seriously get your ass unfucked.
Times I said a party had to embrace the hammer and sickle. Zero.
If you think patriotism is so great for the movement, prove it, I can't tell you how vivid the image of you reclining into an armchair is while you accuse me of being undialectical.
This is undoubtedly the silliest part of this post. I can only imagine how buttblasted you are that I was critical of OP's manifesto, you realize we are on a Singapore doll trading website with a tiny socialist presence, yes?
You act like you've btfo of me but all you've done is half assedly answer my post and reddit space. As far as I can tell, you've only disagreed with three of my points, and honestly, they are the only ones I care to discuss.
I won't argue about the third though because I am really starting to feel embarrassed for genuinely arguing on the internet in a multi-paragraph post with someone who posted an anime socialist woman for their images, called me caustic/undialectical/a purist(and I actually cared a little!) on an obscure leftist forum that will never, ever take off
because I think it is kind of silly and I have nothing to learn from the discussion.

That's rich, especially considering the most successful socialist state in history slapped red stars on everything, built one of the tallest statues in the world, and singlehandedly defined "communist" aesthetics as most people know them today.

Wholeheartedly disagree, but whatever.

I'm sorry, but where the hell do you think you are? Crudely-photoshopped anime chicks have been a staple of chan politics since antiquity. That said, I've gotten rather tired of arguing with you myself.

< I'm totally a socialist guise

I want COINTELPRO to leave.

Proprietarians managed to steal both the words “libertarian” and “anarchist”, in America “working class” now means poor people instead of any wage labourer, “small business” means porky, “urban youth” means black people, “states rights” means letting Texans discriminate against gays, “national security” is American imperialism, “big government” is social democracy, “voter fraud” is minorities voting, the entirety of American politics is cloaked in dog whistles from head to toe.

If we can either risk attracting SocDems or we can be totally inept, and if we cling to outdated language that Americans associate with le ebil gommie boogeyman then nobody will listen to us.

newly developed cointelpro shitpost for your needs

Idea: Soviet democracy, but you call it states' rights.

Eyy, thanks famrade. Given the topic, we'll need at least twenty.

The the lying nature of the Red Scare might actually be in our favor. They did not carefully create arguments against workplace democracy, or production for use, they simply took a bunch of lies and attached it to a name. The word "Socialism" or "Communism" is unimportant, same with its classic imagery. What matters is the ideas and principles, and those ideas and principles are objectively in the working class' interest. Americans are badly educated, and that can also work in our favor, since the anti-socialist education they have been given is so weak that it can easily be argued against, whereas it'd be much more difficult if they were extensively educated in all the best Capitalism apologetics.

Absolutely this.

Patriotism isn't really anything except a feeling, a feeling that your country is really great and special and you like being apart of it. Many, many Americans feel this way and we should take advantage of that. We don't have to say America is the best, fuck everyone else we should go invade them, we just have to use the same language and aesthetics: talk about liberty, the Founding Fathers, use the flag, say how great the Bill of Rights is (especially the 2nd), have a bunch of anti-government rhetoric about how they've betrayed the American people and the ideals the country was built on, and mention democracy and freedom a lot. Yes, a lot of these are spooks and we know American history isn't that black and white, but it's not about compromising principles to be an opportunist, it's about speaking in the language of who you're addressing.
Yes, something like the 1% is bad. IWW uses Employer Class, which is good. So something like that or the Boss Class, the Ruling Class, the Propertied Class (I like this one the best), Exploiting Class, or if you're in the right company, just Capitalists. The point is to not use terms like fucking bourgeoisie. People will immediately see you as a 1960s commie caricature if they even know what that word means.
Antifa shouldn't anything. The point is masks are a bad idea if you're not going to do something illegal. Counter protests and demonstrations aren't illegal, so you shouldn't wear a mask.

Is anything gonna come of this? We've made and examined a number of really good suggestions throughout this thread, and it seems like we've arrived at a general consensus. But I'm wondering where we should go from here.

Hold up. Explain please?

We need direc channels of communication so we can actually get organized.

Socialism is the origin of communism read a fucking book.

As a burger I'll give my 2 labor vouchers on this. I agree with a lot of it although like others there are some points of contention. I also think this needs to be edited for grammar, spelling, and clarity, but I didn't have any issue understanding.

Nah, everyone who's criticized you on this is right, we ARE socialists, socialism is our aim, we shouldn't deceive people with soft or dishonest language. I understand that it's a 'dirty word' in the American sphere, although that's starting to change lately, and indeed with the right presentation and organization, it can change even more in our favor.

Yes, this I agree with, people will instantly turn off their brains once you start using terminology like 'proletarian' or 'bourgeois', so framing these in terms the average Amerilard will be receptive to is best. That said, I don't think we should ever stop talking about 'class', or 'class struggle/conflict'. This is really central to our message and we cannot compromise here.

YES. Absolutely, these aren't relevant to the American worker at all and carry too much historical baggage, way more than what it's worth. Sticking to recognizably American imagery and allusions will be our best bet, but at the very least don't use shit people reflexively associate with 'muh gorrilions'.

No, I don't entirely agree with this one. That one Rafiq post sums it up better than I can, but as socialists we have to be constantly wary and critical of 'patriotism', nationalism, and the like. That said, I don't think it's ​totally wrong to simply use recognizably American symbols, like the stars and stripes, eagles, etc in our message. Just don't turn it into some kind of 'America First' bullshit.

Absolutely. So-called socialists who say from one face that they're 'pro-worker', then insult and demean the very same people I find to be some of the biggest enemies of achieving any actual leftist goals. This doesn't mean that they're exempt from criticism, like of religious fundamentalism or petty bigotry. But yes we should make our support for them clear.

Totally agree. Additionally, make evident the EXISTING tyranny of the current system, of corporations, political and societal structures, etc. Obviously try to do this without using theory jargon (Don't start talking about base/superstructure shit) so that the layperson will understand.

YES x 1000. That kind of shit makes a lasting positive impression on people, in addition to just being plain good for society.

Mmm kinda. This depends on how much of an effective conversationalist you are, if you're a sperg who can't approach things with nuance, then sure keep your head down a bit. But, if you've got some tact, then you can float some ideas, challenge peoples' preconceptions by engaging in conversation dialectically(!), letting them realize contradictions and conclusions on their own. Definitely don't be pushy about it. This is also related to your next point (10) about controlling the conversation.

Yeah, they are more damaging to our cause than helpful, for every person drawn into revolutionary ideas by ANTIFA probably a dozen are repelled by the senseless violence and lack of organization. I don't think 'remaking' ANTIFA is the answer either, but rather making the divide clear, that we aren't them or affiliated with them, and then doing things our way (well organized, purposeful, plain clothes, sensible action).

Again in agreement, revolutionary action comes from what we do and say, not dressing in stupid shit trying to fit into an image or 'scene', which will also attract the wrong type of people (those who don't have any understanding/interest in leftism or those who are just there to fit in somewhere).

Yes, just beware the line between effective use and pure cringe, no bullshit like KEK or 'meme magic' should ever result from us. I think that if we operate openly and frankly, unlike aut-rightists who depend on fabrication and hijacking of otherwise normal imagery, we shouldn't have this issue.

As for everything else you wrote I agree with it strongly enough to not bother commenting on it. I hope these ideas, with some modification, can catch on and actually be utilized by active people on the left. America desperately needs a surge in dissemination of leftist thought, we're in such a stockholm syndrome like relationship with corporations, with our government that fucks us over, with idpol distraction. I still have some hope that things can change though.

Faair enough. Welp, I don't think a single thread warrants its own server (yet), but I'll drop a link to (one of) the Holla Forums Discords sometime tomorrow. We'll pick things up on DMs.

And with that said, Imma go enjoy the holiday. Y'all take care now.

Obviously I’m not certain what OP had in mind with civic nationalism, but in my view something that has always crippled the left in America has been its anti-patriotic tone. When I say this I don’t mean that we should support imperialism, militarism, etc, rather we need to avoid making people feel like shit just because they are American. We need to stop telling them how evil American society and history are, and stop making them ashamed to be American. As long as we do that people will react negatively to us, because people are conditioned from birth (and imo naturally inclined) towards pride and love for their community. Instead we should foster an alternative kind of patriotism, one that looks at aspects that from a socialist perspective are positive, so that Americans can feel proud about their history and their country while also embracing socialist values. We can look at the fight against slavery, the war against fascism, the strikes and great labour struggles, the civil rights movement, etc. We should celebrate these things vehemently, and tell people that they should be proud of their ancestors who fought the confederacy, or the Nazis, or on Blaire Mountain. This will instill the idea that socialism and class struggle are parts of American history, and that people should be proud of that.

Kinda relevant. Utah Phillips once said that one of the things that made him accept Anarchism/Socialism was realizing that he loved the American land and people, but hated the government and the elites. I think its possible to get people to realize that politicians and the rich only make themselves appear as "real down to earth Americans" to hide or distract from how they are exploiting the American workers. If the rich really loved American and Americans, they wouldn't be sending them to die in pointless wars, they wouldn't exploit them or constantly fuck them over.

I totally agree that we shouldn't be anti-patriotic or have an anti-America tone, that would condemn us from the get-go. Nor do I think we should forego any historical pride like those things you mentioned. I agree that these things play a part and are necessary for what we want to achieve. Still, I think that when you invite some patriotic element, for the sake of promoting socialism, you also risk inviting people who instead believe in those things for their own sake, that patriotism and nationalism are inherently good on their own. Who, when pressed, you will find put those things first and leftism is just an afterthought. So this requires a good deal of caution on our part, to not have our socialist message subverted or turn this into a feels > reals reactionary movement. Basically, I agree with you, I just think we have to also be constantly critical and vigilant as well.


Said a book written in fucking 1848. Conditions change and we as communists adapt to them, prick.

This is borderline fascism.

except the goal is to overthrow capitalism, not find a "third way" between socialism and capitalism

t. brainlet


John Brown's Body
Pete Seeger
Traditional folklore holds the lyrics and melody were created by a group of Union soldiers from the… read more »

Joji Breaks Down "I Don't Wanna Waste My Time"

Portugal. The Man Breaks Down "Feel It Still"

Eminem Rhyming With Orange

PVRIS Breaks Down "What's Wrong"

Ella Vos Performs Bon Iver's "00000 Million"
John Brown's body lies a-mold'ring in the grave
John Brown's body lies a-mold'ring in the grave
John Brown's body lies a-mold'ring in the grave
His soul goes marching on
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on

He captured Harper's Ferry with his nineteen men so true
He frightened old Virginia till she trembled through and through
They hung him for a traitor, themselves the traitor crew
His soul is marching on
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on

John Brown died that the slave might be free
John Brown died that the slave might be free
John Brown died that the slave might be free
But his soul is marching on!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on
The stars above in Heaven are looking kindly down
The stars above in Heaven are looking kindly down
The stars above in Heaven are looking kindly down
On the grave of old John Brown
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on

John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back!
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back!
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back!
His soul's marching on!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on

His pet lambs will meet him on the way
His pet lambs will meet him on the way
His pet lambs will meet him on the way
They go marching on!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on

t. red liberal

Do most of these points apply to Canada as well?

bwahahAHHAHA OP this is hilarious. I mena, other than the typos its good but god dammit I can't tell if these typos are on purpose or not

I would also like to know this.

Yes. also, one more thing


DON'T ATTACK RELIGION IF YOU WANT TO BE ELECTED because if you do you deserve what's coming to you

actually, it's better if you'd actively tried to get the sympathies of religious people, because for many people, (including myself) their religion is the most important thing in their lives

I know this is something that might be frowned upon but should we share this with Reddit socialists? They're fucking awful but they contain more people than us so their numbers might help. I'm just doing a throw in the dark here and suggesting a double edged sword we could use

maybe socialistRA or something if you really want to

also, on referring to yourself as a "socialist"

I am personally against it.

It gives the reactionaries a quick non-arguement to make with you. They even like to lecture SUCCDEM BERNIE BROS about the "gorrilians of people mao killed"

this label has been the bane of all the leftist movements in america for quite a while.
you need to shy away from labeling yourself as left wing, for at least a while.

however, I do suggest if you want to be successful in america, I think you need to have to play it a little differently than leftists traditionally do it.

Socialism has to be seen as something that's more american than apple pie.

A good way to start off is to start appropriating popular symbols, (kind of how the right wing likes to appropriate things) like for example this come and take it flag comes to mind, how can we spin this to be a leftist thing?

Make the star red. Tbh, you and everyone else who suggested the same thing of adopting a new label or whatever is completely right.
When we discuss in an academic setting we must use all the jargon correctly, but when we try to reach out to the hopeless idiot worker who only values "jaysus, famalam, murica" we need to appropriate our language. Your average classcuck cannot understand theory, not just because of propaganda and misinformation, but also because they have the attentionspan of a pornstars pubes. Why is it that cuckservatism is on the rise? Because idiots have it easier explaining why "niggers are dumb lol" to each other, much easier than we try to explain the inherent contradictions of capitalism.

As a leaf I’ve thought about this too, and I think while it’s possible for us to do the same kind of thing, it would be a lot harder. First of all, we’re technically a monarchy, and Canadian patriotism has always be tied to the monarchy and British Empire. American patriotism on the other hand was born out of an anti-monarchist and anti-imperialist uprising. The key to socialist patriotism or left wing nationalism is finding aspects of national history and identity that are positive from a leftist point of view. Things that you can promote as exemplary of how a patriot should act. With the US there is a whole ton of stuff to work with… the American Revolution, the Civil War, the great strikes and labour struggles (Blaire Mountain, Ludlow, Railroad strike of 1877), WW2, Black Panthers, Civil Rights movement, as well as the general American boner for anti-authoritarianism and democracy. Not to mention how religious Americans are, which means Liberation Theology is always a an option. All of these things can pretty easily be seen in a socialist light, or spun against capitalism.

What does Canada have? Well we have similar kinds of labour struggles to what you saw in the US, shit like the Winnipeg General Strike, the Asbestos Strike of 1948, plus WW2. Apart from that I can’t think of any specific historical factors that could be used by Canadian Left nationalism. A lot of our other leftist history moves dangerously close to idpol (Quebecois nationalism, indigenous issues, etc). We could also appeal to democracy, anti-authoritarianism, etc which would probably work in basically any western country.


I didn’t say that, I said that emphasizing those struggles could drift into idpol. If we are going to create a Canadian socialist patriotism then it has to be inclusive of all aspects of Canadian society, and white people and anglos are less likely to get drawn into those issues. That doesn’t mean we should ignore them, or not make use of them, just that they alone won’t cut it. Also when we do tackle them it should be in a way that promotes a sense of egalitarian unity and Canadian pan-nationalism, don’t let it turn into “les evil anglos and immigrants destroying le quebec culture tabarnac!” or “the great buffalo spirit will help us destroy the white devil!”

Let me try and have a shot at it.

the come and take flag was most famously used during the texan revolution at the battle of gonzales when mexican forces tried to confiscate it.

The obvious route, is to have the traditional use of the flag as supporting gun rights, and cherishing our history
We can spin ourselves as pro gun leftists, and try to distinguish ourselves from the normal, cucked anti gun liberal

but of course, we'd just get confused as conservatives, so we need to make it so it's inherently leftist, maybe make it red? or make it so that when someone is waving the flag, that there always is a leftist flag to accompany it?

Or maybe wave the red flag along with an american flag to show that we mean business about nationalism, and to prompt discussion with any passers by?

Indians deserve their lands back, only way i would like what you say if they would get actual representation and power within the state structure, they have no reason to be kind to the colonialist state that conquered, colonized and subjugated them


What's wrong with using abstract things like religion to appeal to people who already cherish religion?
You're not going to attract everyone by waving around hammers and sickles, and talking about praxis.
you're going to motivate people by touching the hearts of the COMMON MAN or "proletariat for those larpers
most people love God, and this should be taken advantage of.

You aren't doing a lot to convince that one leftcom we aren't just being condescending user. Our goal should be to convince the average American our ideas are completely compatible with what they value, not to trick them.

Because the function of Communists aren't to evangelize the plebs anyway.

Nobody gives a fuck about the symbols or slogans you spout. Indeed, believing they do is tantamount to immaterialism - it is saying "I believe I can make a difference, not through my revolutionary interactions with the material reality of my class, but through aesthetics."

Workers laugh at Trotskyists in their keffiyehs and poor boy caps; they're not going to be any more impressed by your clerical collar and crucifix.

And what about when those lands have been occupied by whites people for generations? This is an issue similar to the Israel/Palestine dilemma, except the settlers have been here for centuries. It’s not exactly fair to tell white people born and raised on a piece of land that they should pack up and move to make room for people who have never set foot there.

Well I favour a communalist political model, so they would have a high degree of autonomy without having to assign special status based on ethnicity.

Civic nationalism is literally inevitable if you want to have a functioning polity. People will inevitably develop a sense of community, what we have to do is ensure that that sense of community coalesces around a shared sense of political institutions and values rather than ethnicity or some other spook.

Posting a LaTeX typeset and rewritten version of the document. Tell me if any Anglo grammar or spelling survived.

We do not want a "functioning polity"; we want international proletarian revolution. In a lot of ways, the Left is an active impediment to that, so far as its myopic, narrow-minded drive against 'neoliberalism' and the tendency of Capital to dissolve eternal verities and identities causes it to act against the very mechanisms within capitalism that will give form to this Revolution.

Tell the entirety of Republican political strategy since Reagan That.



The state supercedes the individual on this one, it was built by actions that should be rectified, action that was carried out by the state

I’m going to give you a minute to think about what you just wrote.

The entirety of the Republican political strategy since Reagan is [A] largely predicated on the material interests of the American petit-bourgeois and labor aristocracy, for whom religious idealism serves only as a window-dressing to salve their own consciences; and [B] is entirely confined to capitalism, and can make no sense whatsoever as a model for a revolutionary movement to emulate.

Read. More. Theory.

Potential concepts, for an american socialist banner, pls modify as you can


Religion is the backbone of american society, and it's been used as a weapon by reactionaries, neo cons, and neo libs against socialists, and it's been pretty damn effective too,

I've thought about it, and you're right. It wasn't worded strongly enough.


You totally missed the point of my post. The Republicans have successfully gotten millions of working class rural Americans to vote against their material self interest by appealing to their religious sensibilities. Saying that the right aesthetics don’t achieve political success is factually incorrect.

>>>Holla Forums

Negative. Those working-class rural Americans - I know, I am one - vote for their -aspirations-. As trite as the old saying about "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" is, it's still far more true than your clumsy false consciousness model, in which the prole is literally too stupid to know what's good for him.

These people will justify it after the fact with religion, of course, but they know very well what they're doing.

Humans are inherently political animals. As long as humans exist in social groups there will be power structures, there will be values and rules upon which society functions, and mechanisms designed to enforce those rules. Politics will be abolished when individuals no longer need or want to interact with each other.

And they look like confederate flags now.

The whole embarrassed millionaire thing is false consciousness and cultural hegemony at its finest though.

Uphold Marxist-Aristotelian Thought!

Glad you like the ideas. I find that people like the idea of socialism when you describe it but stop listening as soon as you use the s-word.

I bet you’re a Persian and thus naturally a slave.

Hm, It kinda reminds me of chinese taipai flag,

Also, it's just murica without stripes.

Maybe you are onto something about designing a new flag.
something we can rally around.

but I don't think it should be based off an already existing country flag

Oh look, scratch a actually reactionary workerist and a Nazbol bleeds.

no one is naturally a slave, don't say such stupid things.

If we want to have successful socialism in burgerstan we should go blanquist

I was wrong, you must be a Northern barbarian, in which case you are inherently free but lack the virtue to build a great society. The Greeks of course, occupying the geographical middle between the two races, embody both the freedom of the northerners and the discipline of the Persians.

Lmao, I bet you don’t even know the ratio of fire to earth in a pound of bronze.

I was subconsciously influenced by this, but i couldn't think of an emblem.

Instead of Stars, we should have broken chains, I think broken chains might replace the hammer and sickle





kaiserreich is a nice mod.

In all seriousness though Aristotle influenced Marx, and literally every other western philosopher.

Sure. Marx was also influenced by John Locke; it does not follow therefore that he was a classical liberal.

For Marx, Communism is the abolition of the -need- for politics, which exists to mediate social relations between classes. To speak of a 'polity' at all therefore is to translate current conditions forward into time and to impose them on the Revolution.

Fuck off with the elitism and self-righteousness. You can't blame someone who's been lied to their entire life for not knowing the truth and who's been taught that the only relief for their shitty pointless life is consumption and entertainment.

Why do you somehow think aesthetics have no impact on people who think largely in non-materialist ways? Socialism is in the working-class' self interest, but to get them to realize that you have to speak to them in a language they understand. Tell an Deep Southerner that he has to rebel because the bourgeoisie is exploiting his surplus labor and he'll think you're either crazy or some fucking commie, but tell him that he has to rebel because the Founding Fathers fought for liberty and equality and Jesus Christ Himself wants him to fight against the pharisees and money-lenders, then he'll start thinking.

The material self-interest affects things in whether you can change someone's mind to begin with: a super religious petite-bourgeois isn't going to become a Socialist no matter how much Liberation Theology you shout at him, because while you can speak his language to make him understand, he'll just fundamentally disagree unless he considers himself a Christian above all else.

I think just having a regular flag is good. It completely stops tribal Us-vs-Them thinking immediately and makes the onlooker actually have to think. There's a reason flags are used for identification, and when you're waving a Soviet flag in the US, you're causing people trained by the Red Scare to immediately classify you as the enemy. Having regular Leftist flags is also good, because it'll create a powerful subconscious effect of "Leftism is American".

You're over estimating the importance people put on materialism. The world is materialist, but people are idealists, which of course is shaped by materialism. People don't single-issue vote about marriage, abortion, or guns because they're hoping to someday own a small business.

What I want to know is what such a society would actually look and function like. Marx is notoriously vague on this, what I want to know is how the collective activity of society will be managed. How will the values and organization of that society be maintained, what mechanisms will exist to provide prosperity and security, what will be the mechanisms of collective decision making? These are all questions you need to answer, you can’t just wave it away and say “lol none of that will matter”.

Even the most reactionary, the most devout, the most credulous reactionary worker today thinks in a fundamentally 'materialist' way. They simply translate that into the language of idealism.

For example, my grandmother is reactionary as Hell, always talking about 'niggers'. But her reason for hating 'niggers'? Because, to her mind, they collect too much in welfare and commit crimes. She has no interest at all in mystical racial theories or 'human biodiversity'; she grounds her racism on what, is for her, a perfectly materialistic, common-sensical approach to race relations. She just happens to be wrong.

Once more, with feeling: it is -not our purpose to "educate the masses"- We are not little John The Baptists, gone to prepare a way for the Revolution. The masses will largely educate themselves.

The liberals try this all the time. How many Democratic candidates running in the Deep South appeal to religion, to the 'humane' Christ, and have absolutely nothing to show for it?

Because Deep Southerners are not idiots, and are turned off by their pandering.

Which is fine, because we have no interest in 'converting' the super religious petit-bourgeois to the One True Faith anyway.

what's wrong with stars?
some one with better Photoshop skills should, change the fist outline

Agree, we shouldn't change ole glory

I still do think we need somethin to signify our movement tho

If you want "values" and "organization", if you want "prosperity" and "security", what you actually want is just another kind of capitalism. Communism is the abolition of all these things.

*to yellow

Stop talking around the point. People will have to interact with each other, resources will need to be managed, decisions will need to be made, society will need to continue to function. How will it do so? What will this society actually look like?

you've done alot of criticizin but not alotta idea sayin

what do you recken we do to create successful american socialism?

I think having the hands be in the small square would be cool, also white against the blue background would be super nice

That is entirely the point: it is -impossible to say- in any more than the broadest strokes how 'society' will be arranged in the aftermath of the Revolution. And the attempt to propose certain working principles, like Charles Fourier and Robert Owens and any number of utopians you please did, is completely divorced from the real movement for this very reason.

Absolutely nothing, because socialism will by default not be 'American' socialism, any more than it will be 'Scottish' socialism or Japanese' socialism [or, by the time we get to it, 'Venutian' or 'Martian' socialism]. Socialism will be itself, and will represent the final destruction of all these constructed identities, themselves in decay for centuries under the pressures of Capital.

You will, at best, do nothing more than to recreate the New Deal- itself a reactionary yearning.

How can you seriously advocate for this and call others utopian? The fact is that the state, insofar as the body with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, will always exist. Politics will always exist because human social interaction will always exist, as will a sense of ethics and the practical application of those ethics.

Because this is how ALL revolutions have always worked. Again, during the bourgeois revolutions the revolutionaries themselves were quite ignorant about the world they were building. Unless you mean to tell me that the sans-culottes each held master's degrees in economics? Or that the Women's March On Versailles was motivated by a deep understanding of the principle of comparative advantage?

No; there was revolution because these people had no choice -but- to revolt, given the conditions then existing. The world they constructed was almost entirely ad hoc. It will be the same with all subsequent future revolutions.

Do you guys like this flag?
It was used by the Sons of Liberty, it's literally called the "Rebellious Stripes".

something other than break the chains.

quite dull.
Its only purpose was to say they're not british

here's an improved version

And many Americans think America is literally the land of freedom, and its the reason why their life is so good, and that Jesus died for their sins so they don't go somewhere shitty when they die. Our job isn't to prove them wrong, it's to use their preexisting ideas and reapply them towards shit that will actually help them. Everyone ultimately bases their beliefs on some aspect of reality they think is true, but for many of them it really is ultimately feels>reals and the aesthetic has more ground in their mind than the material reasons why the aesthetic is good. If you press a patriot enough he'll tell you why he thinks America is truly good, but most of his thinking just amounts the the word and symbolism of America being good.
Fuck off with this retarded determinism that for some reason doesn't consider the Leftist movement a material condition. How the fuck do you think the masses can educate themselves without someone else who knows the truth to teach them? The idea of exploitation is counter-intuitive for most Americans, where they honestly think the employee-employer relationship is an equal and fair exchange.
I've never heard that. But regardless, that's probably because what the Democrat is proposing doesn't actually align with the people's interests. They're speaking in their language but they aren't interested in what they're saying.
I'm not implying we are. I'm saying that:

Now we've come full circle

Your guide is amazing! thank you for acknowleding us of the south (red necks) the smugness of liberal ideas has kept me from joining in supporting yall, but it seems by this book that you intend to end such tensions or whatever.
I'm on board with this "socialism" thing tell me more about it
also nice manifesto i will start roughly following its rules to spread it in my social circles
- Just a working class guy

where can i learn more about "socialims" or whatever i've read into it a little bit and i'd like to read more

At its core, communism is a moneyless and classless post-scarcity society, and socialism's ultimate goal is communism. The goal of socialism is to democratize the workplace. right now if you generate 100 dollars of capital an hour, you will probably go home with 30 dollars or less in pay. how your labor-value is allocated right now is probably by a board of 10-20 elected members in a corporation, elected by about 1 percent of the shareholders that hold 60 percent of the stock.

If you're not posting ironically then this post explains it pretty well

But you genuinely sound like you're making fun of the idea, if not, then welcome newfriend.

For many workers, America actually -is- a 'land of freedom', to the extent that they are probably better off here than they would be elsewhere. In the absence of revolutionary conditions, it's entirely rational for them to be patriotic and nationalistic. In changed conditions their ideas will also change.

It really, really isn't.

"The masses" have no need of education. They're not idiots. They already understand that they're exploited - though the language in which they express their consciousness of this exploitation might change. They simply have no reason, as yet, to do anything about it.

Not at all. These people simply feel more exploited by the system in abstract than they do by the concrete exploitation of their personal relationship with their boss. You're falling prey to a typical Leftist religious delusion: that the problem with capitalism is just that there's a boss, and that he's the source of all evil in the world. To the contrary, the problem with capitalism is Capital - an impersonal, abstract social relation which determines the boss as a subject as much as it does the worker.

And if you what you were saying aligned with their interests, you wouldn't need to dress it up in the shuck and jive of religious faith.

Again, you think the people you mean to educate are idiots. Little wonder they have no use for you at all.

Im so sorry i didnt know how to word my post i felt that it may come off as making fun, but no i am not trying to make any fun of the idea

but it needs to look bugeroid

While I appreciate all the effort, I personally think OP hit the nail on the head as far as secondary banners go. It's short, sweet, and to the point; what more could you ask for?

is right though: We're not abandoning Old Glory. If we're going to normalize socialism in the US, the last thing we wanna do is invite a distinction between us and the average American; especially when ever other political party uses patriotic iconography to great effect.

okay southern poster here i really like flags, if i were you guys i wouldnt try to appeal to traditional socialist flag design ideas at all
Instead look at previous libertarian ideas for flag design
The "dont tread on me" flag, really appeals to the working class demographic becuase of the way it looks
Blank background (not red) and a symbol
you wont get anywhere with words on a flag.
Red may be the traditional socialist color but thats exactly why any flag using it as a dominant in america will fail to catch on like wildfire
we need something
- easy to reproduce
- not a dog whistle for socialism in of itself
Maybe red stripes and white lines with a central symbol representing the southern working class
Since hunting is a large passtime and industry in the south maybe a gun crossed with another large southern industries symbol: wheat
Variations to the plant symbol can be made on plant for example: arkansas mainly produces cotton crop
just my ideas!

the blue stripe "i stand with cops" flag is also appealing to the american demographic, why? because of how simple and "patriotic it is"
appeal to already existing flags not new ones!

too dull, the chains breaking give it more intensity

Okay since we're designing banners and things, I had a go

I thought of that old phrase on our coins, and it stuck to me "e pluribus unum"

also I only have ms paint so pls no bully

Most of this is good, here's my response to a few points
I disagree. As others have said, the term "socialism" is being normalized now.
Agree for the most part but it should also be made clear, at least among convinced socialists, that co-ops have significant limitations and can't be an endpoint in themselves.
This is something I mull over a lot. Finding a balance between avoiding opportunism and viable populism is a notoriously tough issue for the left. I'm not going to claim to know the solution, but while the desire to avoid campus-style "idpol" is justified, we can't in good conscience abandon all those concerns.
Agree with some reservations. Current black bloc tactics don't seem too productive. I do want to say that masks might be justified in some circumstances in light of mass surveillance and police repression. They shouldn't be worn for their own sake though; only if doing something illegal.
Agreed, but I do want to say that frogposter types way overestimate the impact they had on the election. The vast majority of Trump voters didn't give a shit about them.

Otherwise I agree with what you've said here. If you haven't seen it already, this reminds me a lot of what Pablo Iglesias (Podemos founder) said in the video below. Say what you will about the man himself, but he definitely makes a worthwhile argument here.

I think you can download gimp.

Southern worker guy again
Traditional hunting rifle + liberty sign good compromise?

I have my better days I guess. ^^

Sorry friend, some of us are just kinda worn out by the constant trolls that swing by here. Welcome!

Initially I was gonna contest that, but is (somehow) giving me second thoughts. It needs refinement, but the concept has potential.

Ooh, that's niice. Initially I was gonna suggest a red Gadsen Flag like pic related, but I like that one even more!

This ignores how for many of them they have no logical reason for believing this, whether they're working a shitty job or none at all while addicted to opioids. Even now things are getting shittier, yet the Right is able to channel their preexisting beliefs to "it's foreign elements perverting our free market system" in order to defend the system that's actually causing shit to become worse.
I'm sure the Russian revolution would've happened just the same without the Bolsheviks and the Spanish without the CNT. Leftists aren't somehow non-workers; the organizations they create and the actions they do are reflective of the working class.
No, they literally don't. They might understand they hate their job and their boss and wish they got paid more, but they actually do not understand they are being exploited. Many of them turn to self-help reasoning that says they're the problem and they just need to fix their mind to enjoy their job and to become more successful.
They feel like *something* is fucking them but they have no idea what. That's why conspiracy shit is to popular, because it's easy to blame that something on a specific group like the Jews, the bankers, the Illuminati, the elite, etc. Most people have no knowledge of how Capitalism functions and why it makes their life shit, and because of that they'll direct their frustration to whichever group they've decided is the foreign influence.
I understand that perfectly well. I know the boss is exploiting the worker as well as himself in order to serve Capital, I'm saying most people honestly do not get that, and do not have an inkling of an idea of surplus-value.
If you're a French doctor and you have a German patient, you could spend hours telling them this medicine will cure them, yet that'll never get them to take the weird looking liquid because they have no idea what you're saying. It's not about dressing it up, or specifically about religion, it's about having aesthetics that aligns with theirs, while using a language they understand. Saying Jesus or the Founding Fathers would want Socialism gets them interested, explaining why Capitalism is fucking them over gets them convinced. Most people make first impressions on an emotional level, and once they don't like something they'll stop listening and vice versa.
No, I think the people are regular people, who operate on a mainly emotional level, and because I work in the real world and not an ideal one, I know that things have to be partially approached on an emotional level.
Yes indeed, they're sure creating the Social Revolution on their own right now.

Southern guy back again
im not sure about red, its shown that red triggers an anger reflex in the mind if only slight
i know it's a stupid idea but what if we change the color of american socialism to blue, bernie heavily used bernie and we can swing it to "we're like bernie because we use blue!" in the mind of the voter
just a thought

No need to apologize m8, it's just no one talks like that here so it sounded like someone was being facetious. Where did you come from?

how about this?

I used to be rightwing but trump, he well he betrayed my community.
I dropped out in the 8th grade to get a job for my family and whatever and so his message of "jobs" brought me under his fold
In short
he fucked me my family my mother my brothers everyone
somehow i found this place.
I grew up poor this message appeals to me a lot, i came from some other board i remember hearing about this place i forgot which board though.
Glad to be here got to say the manifesto is appealing

Is that the rules for radicals font? honestly people will assume you live in a treefort and are about the age of 10~13 The cannon is already a rightwing symbol so i say we take the rifle and make it ours!


but Someone told me to go get gimp instead of fucking ms paint

I think ill go do that.

but I do think that a centered circular dot with an emblem in the middle, plus some red white and blue stripes poking out of it, is a good concept

Font? I just used the straight line tool on ms paint.

yeah, I do agree. I don't think we can reclaim that symbol, no matter how much I like it.

Yeah the cannon is nice but the rebellion at jalisco wasnt even left wing at all we cant claim it
I am a descendant of the blair mountain miners revolt, my family was involved on the side of the miners
I say a pickaxe and a rifle
i reccomend you spread the message of the blair mountain revolt far and wide across the south if you truly want to attain your goals
Give the rednecks around you something that links them to you, while i know yall dont have roots here in the poor south and seem to spit on us at every turn you CAN win us over
And for the love of god distance yourself as far as possible from obama, vets in arkansas despise him Yes i know he isnt a socialist but man do they think he is.

pretty good

Jalisco? I thought that the come and take it flag was from the texas revolution. y'know the battle of Gonzales.

or maybe i might just be dumb or something

but actually, I am in "redneck" (i really hate that fucking word) county texas. I live in the trailers.

Arkansas ghetto fag here, yeah i mixed up the battles it was gonzales
been a while since i looked into it

alright, I can sleep better knowing that I didn't mess that up!

We're fighting for you m8. Here's a pretty short and easy to read pamphlet to get a better understanding of Socialist understanding of economics if you want to learn more.

How did you get a job at 14?

Nah, the people here are usually pro-southern working class. It's the idpol fuckers over at /r/socialism and irl that shit on poor working class. There's Redneck Revolt that's trying to change Leftism's relationship with rednecks. I don't know a lot about them but you might like to look into them and see if they're worth anything.

i was 16 in the 8th grade having been held back once. and hated school i was then and am now extremely anti authoritarian
its good to know that unlike your peers on reddit i wont be shit on because i "have a funny accent and am a fucggging whitem ale 1!!!!"

More like enemies. They call us "class reductionists" because we realize all oppression stems from the hierarchical, authoritarian class system and don't play the ruling class' game of dividing the workers through a game of oppression olympics based upon identity.

I made a higher quality version of this flag for my fellow autists upset by the one in the op

Whoops, here's a version that actually has antialiasing

Here's a better version. Really gets that don't tread on me aesthetic in there

I see, So they are just authoritarians?
those who believe society can only exist through structured victorian era moral authoriarianism arent ones i want to meet

Well, they don't advocate for a class society either, they just don't put primacy on its destruction. Many of them definitely are authoritarians though. The leftist reddit boards on well known for silencing any dissent without justification.

then what the fuck do they put their primacy on? sniffing their own farts?>>2276363

AFAIK they believe the fight against oppression has to be intersectional: class isn't enough, you also have to fight against the patriarchy, institutional racism, ageism, ableism, etc. Them putting class along the same level as everything else shows how uneducated they are, since no oppression of any kind, including ones based upon identities, can exist without power, and that power comes from class and ultimately the state. There's a really nice picture of a BPP member talking about racism: how if a white guy wants to lynch him because he's black, that's the white guy's problem, if he wants to lynch him and he has the power to do so, that's the member's problem, and that power comes from Capitalism.

This would be the political landscape once we pick up steam.

Do you remember anything about the source of that quote? Sounds interesting.

Found it:
― Stokely Carmichael

Of course, idpolers completely misunderstand this quote and say that "racism is prejudice + power therefor black people can't be racist because they don't have power", which not only is just playing semantics so that minorities can't be racist, but it misses the point of the quote. He explicitly says that racism is a problem because of power, not because people's attitude.

Upon reflection, I'd reckon that's a valid point. Tons of folks still associate red with the sort of authoritarianism we saw in the USSR, and I don't think Bernie's campaign would've been quite as successful if he'd opted for red instead of blue.

It's really a thorny problem, and we're kinda damned if we do, damned if we don't. If we stick to red, people are sure to call us commies; but if we adopt blue, folks could easily mistake us for another flavor of liberals, which is arguably even worse.

Our best bet might be to just normalize socialist colors alongside the concepts. The more we demonstrate that we're willing to take action on behalf of the average American, the more likely people are to embrace our aesthetics.

Good god, my eyes!

That's pretty awesome, not gonna lie.


Ooh yeah, I forgot about that thread. Anyone got some graphics from it? I remember them getting really good around halfway through.

Here is my modern day version, since the kalash is not the modern equivalent to a field cannon/

Don't we want an anger reflex at rallies while we are using populist rhetoric against the system.

I have read the bread book, which is why I think that going “well who knows lol” is stupid as fuck.

Because this is how ALL revolutions have always worked. Again, during the bourgeois revolutions the revolutionaries themselves were quite ignorant about the world they were building.

Yes but clearly they had some idea, that’s why they issued the Declaration of the Rights of Man.

I don’t think red is as entrenched as the commie colour in the US as it is elsewhere. After all a red state isn’t a commie state to Americans.

Also if we were going to pick a new colour then I would recommend orange. It would distinguish us from the libs, and the furthest left we are going to get most Americans at the current juncture is market socialism, so the mutualist colour isn’t a bad idea.

No, red is still a communist color in America. The Republicans didn't stop it from being called the Red Scare. Hell, the people saying "better dead than red" are usually Republicans.

I can part with the hammer and sickle, but we are not giving up our color red.

I think we should spread De Leonism. Anyone else agree?

Its a bit outdated, and we would need a proper radical union which we dont have. Perhaps if the wobblies become more popular again.
Also, do the Democratic Cops of America have a union or an affiliated union?

So my fellow leaves, what should we call our new Marxist-Brzostowskist party?

How would we go about "updating" it? Not arguing, I'm curious because I think DeLeonism would work best for us Americans . Also, I read somewhere that IWW membership was growing but I can't find it.

I under stand what you mean, but maybe it can just be state-syndicalism? It doesn't have to be like, "neo-deleonism". State syndicalism def needs some more theory, especially theory that is relevant to your times.
I wouldn't be surprised. Socialist orgs are growing pretty fast right now in America.

I could immagine that being flown at an antifascist protest HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

but no, the white backround wasn't supposed to be there ;-; it was supposed to look like this originaly

The New Democratic Party!


Seriously that would have been a great name if it wasn’t stolen by SocDems. First they kill Rosa and now this.

uh hey yall

Fascists have like a million symbols, but we only have hammer and sickle, star, and that's about it.

We need somethin new, or atleast, less of a RED FLAG haha get it, because I meant something that won't give us away as socialists, and the "red flag" is already a socialist symbol

the spanish triple pointy off of the popular front/international brigades flag is pretty aesthetic. here, let me see what I can do with concept.

maybe have a red arrow under it symbolizing progress, (hey that can be something on it's own, i'll hold onto that idea) and coming out the flag rainbow lines come out of it, symbolizing unity. It's simple, unique(ish) and It was done on MS paint, so it wont be that hard to recreate

I just woke up and i'm really trying yall, please give me a chance!


trump proved that you can shit on anything and get elected, so no thanks.

Trump is actually A good person to take inspiration from (not in rhetoric, or policy of course, he's a reactionary)

but in practice.

he won, by using small words, and by knowing how to control the conversation, and knowing how to fucking btfo his opponent, and he didn't give a shit about his political etiquette.

he was an asshole, and people voted for him for it. We should try that.

that looks very freudian

well it was done in ms paint, my point was the concept, it's not done yet of course.

Capitalist class isn't a fancy french word and still gets across what we mean though the terminology might still be too openly associated with Marxism.

I've also always liked ruling class because it has an intuitive meaning.

The law of value series condenses some major idea from Capital pretty well. Still I honestly think there is very little reason for your average member of a socialist movement to understand this stuff. All the average person really needs to understand is a basic Marxist class analysis and why wage labour is exploitative. This can be explained to someone in like 10 minutes and someone really needs to make a flashy animation with a voice over doing so.

This. There are actually quite a lot of similarities between early 20th century Russia and the modern USA. The knowledge your country is less socially and economically developed than other countries breed serious radicalism among the population. The USA in a similar way too Russia has a cross-class youth movement less spoked by religion and nationalism than previous generations and enraged by the obvious backwardness of their country. As in Russia there is also cynicism about solving these problems through reforms of the sclerotic state system. As this demographic becomes more dominant who know what will happen in the USA.

tbh I don't really think these arguments convince anyone. People can understand that Socialism in 21st century America isn't going to work out the exact same way as Socialism in 1946 China intuitively. The 100 gorillians shit is just people who are already anti-socialist circle jerking with each other it doesn't actually convince anyone. Even when I believe the USSR was the evil empire I was still attracted to the idea of socialism.

I think Corbyn showed how effective and anti war message can be if you deliver it confidently and thoroughly. American "left wing" politicians always revert to troop worship and jingoism about "national security". Socialists need to attack the endless war on the entire world to separate us from succdems who act like Medicare for All is socialism.

After spending like a hour brainstorming ideas I came up with only one that I actually liked

Common Solidarity League

It was surprising how hard it was to come up with one that was socialist without being aggressively obvious.

I also remember there being another organisation posted on here before. The poster for it was orange with two crossed wrenches. I don't member the name though.

It could be pretty easily co-op'd to other purposes.

This is more what I was thinking tbh, if this were cleaned up it would be great for a new american flag

This is more important than you think. Under obama, we literally went from 1 or 2 wars to 9 different wars. Not only that, but the afghan war has an abysmal approval rating.
So, if we as socialists hit the nail on the head when it comes to war, we can probably get somewhere.

For the younger people, we should say something like "Since 9/11 can you remember a time that we WEREN'T at war with someone?".

It really is virgin territory for rhetoric. We're in the belly of the beast of global imperialism. If we attack the military intelligence complex and point out the cost at home and abroad of endless war and arming the worst people on the planet it will be harder to ignore the left which is what's happening now.

What about something involving the term “Popular Democracy” or something like that. I think our best bet as socialists is to emphasize our commitment to democracy and he devolution of political power.

why not just call it left wing populism if you want to use some "popular"

or maybe just call it flat out "populism"

Populism has a bad rap among some people who associate it with demagoguery.

What if we infilitrated the democratic party and republican party and dropped red-pills from within each party?

Sounds too commie and archaic to me. Here's a list from Wikipedia that might be useful.

Not feeling it. We shouldn't have any flag with words in my opinion, and the chain graffic is a little to gritty. Too much negative space.

Pic related is my attempt at a flag. The idea is to incorporate red white and blue while making red the most important color. We are an American movement, but we are socialists first and foremost.

Does this flag look good?

I like the top left design as its own design without the stripes. Your flag reminds me if we could do anything with the Statue of Liberty's torch. Maybe combine the torch with the Rosa Killer logo?

I think the symbols on it should remain abstract, like the five pointed stars. No figures, letters, or words.

To rip off the Zapatistas, I like the Worker's Party/Movement/League/Noun for National Liberation. Maybe that's too close to the PSL. Honestly, if they didn't already exist with the name, the Party for Socialism and Liberation or the Socialist Liberation Party would be great names. Worker Liberation Party might work.

How about a neo-abolitionist party? The abolitionist movement is like the one good thing this country ever did. Platform included abolishing poverty, abolishing sickness, abolishing war, and abolishing the wage system.

Platform should include*

Here's an idea, how about burger on leftypol join the same party that already exists? Doesn't matter which party it is, as long as it's the same one and has infrastructure in place. As long as it's the same power, we can stay as united as we possibly can as a collective of people scattered over the country. Hell, it might be a good idea to correspond with our Canadian and Mexican comrades and get a North American party going if that would be possible.

If we have to get sectarian, then at least all the Marxists can join one party and all the anarchists join one party. Just keep splitting to a minimum.

*every burger on leftypol

alright, it took me awhile, but I downloaded gimp, and binge watched a shit ton of gimp tutorials

I redid my other flag concept, (it's not finished by here you go)

also, shouldn't we start a new thread for this? this thread started off as tactics for socialism in america, and has devolved into a flag designing thread?

That looks like a visual metaphor for fucking

maybe I should remove the arrow?

The triple pointy is a good aesthetic

southernfag here i just woke up, yeah its a valid point i think we could atleast try it

use confederate colors on the flags, get rid of yellow and include white and dark blue

Young Patriots tried this. It didn't work.

Thats because they are retarded, confederate colors are associated with revolution atleast in the south.
also pics?

Lose the arrow; keep the star. I'd like to say it brings to mind a caltrop, but I'm not sure if most people would make the connection.

The white-on-blue does look really nice, though. Anyone mind editing the Kerala flag for comparison? I'd do it myself, but PhotoShop is being a bitch.

These all suck. Red flag or bust. No step on sneks and guns are also good.

How about this?
me thinks it looks nice

i need to clean it up with an eraser thooo

It's probably easier to redo it in Inkscape

I’m fine with using a different colour but I don’t like blue. I think orange would be better. If we use blue people will think we’re liberals.

inkscape? okay, ill look into that.

hollup vro i gotchu

it'll take a few, so just hold on


But for reals tho, should we start a new thread just for designing pretty flags?

not mine

people are too spooked about the masons and the GDR for that one

So I started a thread about OC flags

I stole a few flags from here

Very different symbol
This incorporates the Greek Delta symbol. Representing democracy.
And it's inside a O to represent Order. Order and Democracy.

Bump because this thread deserves to live.

Of the yanks here, what leftist orgs are you members of?

Thanks for that.

I'm looking to join the IWW.



I told you. All of this subverting. American "workers" are mostly reactionary white dudes who vote Republican and are Christian

Made it for someone, made it when I was with the sargon "Tolerate the fascist" crowd.

Looked through the account, that's from 2015. It seems like our comrade over here got radicalised by Sanders.

No, try again.

No, try again.

Or at least he introduced me more into left wing politics.

I too was radicalized by Sanders

I feel like this comrade sums up my views on your piece OP . I would like to offer an addition to your piece though. In the very religious parts of the US, christian socialism is the way forward. Material for this endeavor is abundant within the bible. If myself and my other christian comrades could get a christian socialist movement going in the south and the midwest, we would be nigh unstoppable.

He was my Ron Paul 2.0

Same Here

Also, if we get someone like Bernie Sanders except a real socialist, could we get socialism popular in the US?

Say it with me comrades:

Jimmy "Make porky sore" Dore

Does Jimmy Dore let generic people talk to him? I kind wanna talk to him on my birthday and drop tons of redpills all over him

He did it for a Str*sserist

If you have money, I guess you can hire him for a show.

It is already normalized for 50+ % of the population. Majority of what is left just doesn't want it to "get too far".

Literally nothing to normalize. You won't get it though, because the big cats in both parties have their own pacing.

Sanders isn't a socialist Holla Forums

I wish that the right hadn't taken the term "redpill", it works so much better for communists

It's a shame, since the analogy around it works too. Since the pill makes you realize all humans, regardless of identity, are all being exploited by the bo(u)rgs

The Matrix is /ourfilm/ dammit. It's all about living in ideology controlled by the bourgeoisie. Oh well, They Live has the same message and is better anyway.

"Put on the red glasses"?

We should just use “put on the glasses” since They Live is still /ourfilm/ and Carpenter shut them down when alt right tried to co-opt it.

The aut right tried to co-opt They Live? The Matrix is one thing, but I don't know how you can even pretend They Live is anything but a critique of capitalism.

They tried to say it was about Jews and John Carpenter went on twitter and told them it was about neoliberalism.

Yeah? what the fuck is wrong with being christian?

And what's wrong with caring for poor people? Yes, they can be reactionary, but that doesn't change the fact that down here in the trailers,
(somewhere you fucking privileged suburbian petite bourgeoisie soyboy has probably never been near) are fucking suffering. and the fact that disgusting pieces of shit such as yourself go around scoffing at us "rednecks" whilst claiming to be for the working class is the reason why the right wing is on the rise in america.


tbh idk what to think about liberation theology, one side of me loves religion, but something just seems wrong about using to further your own political interests.

It's all stupid pandering, and it always, invariably, without fail, comes off as pandering.
Most of my friends, who are the same kind of quasi-lumpen as me, are irreligious as Hell. That doesn't mean they're consciously atheistic [though a few are], and it doesn't mean they're not reactionary on some superficial level, but it DOES mean that religion in the abstract plays no role in their lives. One of my friends smokes weed errday, has a black girlfriend, uses the word "nigger" religiously and voted for Trump.
This holds good for most of the white lumpen and quasi-lumpen, in my experience. The idea that we're all very religious racists with "economically leftist" ideas is one mostly confined to the lower-middle-class.



I disagree with point No.11. The entire purpose of wearing masks is to avoid prosecution and is considered a common anti-fascist tactic, especially in places where the act of protesting is met with legal hostility. Plus, I should note, the very act of an entire crowd of people wearing black is to stand as a stark-contrast to every-day life and activity. It is similar to the act of holding an American flag upside down: it is against the norm and is very noticeable.
I guess you haven't read too much Civil Disobedience but the principle is to purposefully disobey public order and law in order to get a message across. The fact of marching without a permit is considered a classic act of Civil Disobedience. It is often done in an attempt to fill jails in order to get more press coverage.

Honestly, I am very skeptical of the claims that so-called "antifa members" attacked Trumpsters.

I wholeheartedly agree with point twelve, however. Attached is an image that points out the problem with "anarchists" who don that aesthetic.

I don't think we need to leave all idpol behind, we just need to make it clear that some idpol issues (such as racism) are the result of classist oppression. We can make use of Martin Luther King, Jr. quotes as well as Malcolm X quotes to illustrate this point.

For instance:
"Show me a Capitalist and I will show you a bloodsucker." ~ Malcolm X

"You can't have Capitalism without racism." - Malcolm X
See also the second image.


I can see where your coming from, but awhile ago in the thread I was talking to a former conservative now left winger who's also a southerner. He said people are somewhat afraid of them and dont like the idea. If anything we need to remake the antifascist movement and centralize it. Make it do things like make meals for people, help the poor and so on. Things that the black panthers would do.

Well I certainly wont deny that their is still racism to overcome in the USA.

Thats why I specifically labeled "Liberal Identity politics" that may stem from an actual problem but go overboard or approach it stupidly.

Screwed up my response, just read the comment bellow your post.

I see.


Bumpity bump


This is interesting in terms of strategy.

There really is nothing wrong with pigs, I don't understand why so many people hate them. The Jews hate them, the Muslims hate them, but they're really good creatures.

I'm posting those before I read the thread, but so I'm sure I'll repeat some arguments that have already been challenged, but I'm pressed on time

This hits a lot of wrong notes with me, and reminds me of people in the liberal-conservative zone thinking that describing themselves as "centrists" and "moderates" is some sort of brilliant tactical move because the imaginary "average person" in their heads responds to nuance and moderation, not principled and aggressive rhetoric, which is something you can't have if you're always worried about how to soften the blow semantically.

Besides that, if we can't get people to question accepted wisdom regarding general ideas like Socialism we're lost, because as soon as you're pressed against some other lazy habit of american politics you will have to choose between being a radical or playing the game of empty political rhetoric regarding family, constitution, founding fathers, tradition, and so on. People are tired of the prevailing political language, give them an alternative to it instead of merely playing along.

This presumes that words like that are always interchangeable, which is wrong. When we say "proletariat" and "bourgeoisie", even if they're a bit alien to mainstream political vernacular, we have the benefit of a precedent in socialist literature to help us highlit its analytical meaning, to describe people in different places in the process of production, which is already an important insight into how we perceive society.

Sure, for the average person proletariat means a blue-collar man with his face covered in coal, but to those people we can use Marx's and other socialist thinker's own words to put forward a scientific approach to class. When you replace this with populist jargon like "the average person!" your rhetoric is not only emptied of a technical aspect, it also becomes personal. The worker here is no longer a somewhat abstract-theoretical category that we use to interpret reality, it's the worker as we find it, which means your flanks are open to the usual populist rhetoric about good old american values, about how the average Joe is this and that, about how new ways of living and new forms of organizing society go against the common man's sensibilities. You can easily be pressed by your own words to become subservient to cultural superstructure instead of active over the economic, material base, to become a bunch of idiots walking around on NBA caps talking about community's values instead of becoming people not afraid to put yourselves against the grain.

In general, sure, if you're behind a podium arguing with a liberal in front of audience to whom you can't explain theoretical jargon without tripping all over yourself, use a vaguer replacement to get your point through. But this is something we never had a problem with.

No problem at all here.

Terrible idea, and on the same vein of many others here, it assumes we can use the establishment's own rhetoric against itself. In my opinion, accepted political rhetoric and behavior like that are to be questioned and attacked, not 'appropriated' and kept around just to weigh on us later when we're faced with the obvious contradictions between our ideas and the narratives of the american system. Trust me, you don't want to find yourselves ten years down the road juggling with several contradictory ideas. It's better to have 50 people who are on board with you and with whom you can talk frankly about the internationalist, pacifist, secularist, progressive character of Socialism than 1000 people who are there because you sold them a mishmash of patriotic socialism, christian socialism, family-tradition socialism, etc.

And honestly, you overestimate how much people really care about those things. Patriotism may look strong when every political candidate tries to claim it for themselves and the question of who's more into family and god and nation becomes a tug of war between their supporters, but these are often political euphemisms to more earthly concerns about income, crime, job safety and all that, and it's the statesmans' job is to come up with political tokens in which they embed those and other concerns, and the people respond by becoming more loyal to the institutions that regulate those shared interests. So instead of thinking you can play their game and rearrange their categories, develop your own. Your own rhetoric, your own institutions, your own responses to those concerns.

Completely agree, and I think at least for a while we should be constantly on the watch to not become too college-y. Many learn the hard way that you can't have a strong political movement in which the social foundation are students, completely removed from common economic activity and wrapped in an esoteric set of ideas that have no value outside of academic discourse.

Coming up with new labels and new brands to avoid the authoritarian label was already the favorite hobbie of an endless amount of socialists during the Cold War, who earnestly believed that if they distanced themselves enough from the Soviet Union by emphasizing the libertarian/democratic character of their Socialism, or by finding personalities alternative to Stalin to march behind, people would frankly accept the distinction and join them. The fact these trends were never popular and became even less popular after the collapse of the Soviet Union (which means, no one frankly thought of them as alternatives) says a lot.

In my experience, people are far more responsive to your ideas if you can sit down like an adult and talk about good social and economic policies that were to be found among the Socialist experiments of the 20th century, the mistakes they made, which pressures they were responding to that may have lead them to those mistakes, the difficult circumstances of their experiments, etc. Being way too obsessed with preemptively distancing yourself from any negative stereotype surrounding Socialism, particularly the authoritarian bit, makes you come off like a complete bullshitter, and it's a wormy way of advancing your cause. Be frank about mistakes, lessons learned, positive aspects, propaganda, and potential mechanism to stop the same things from happening and people may listen to you.

And let's remind ourselves that americans loving small government and hating authoritarianism is kind of crap. You can present any of those people with the story of a Cold War coup against some democratically elected government in South America or the Middle East and their instinctive reaction, before they even learn the facts, is to make excuses for it because of the circumtances of the conflict. Same shit happens with their own government's habit of violating civil and human rights. Americans are not acculturated in a culture of liberty and democracy, they're acculturated in a culture that worships tough-minded attitude, of being in control, of what "has to be done", of pseudo-realism. Of course it's just a learned habit that comes with half a century of rationalizing war crimes, but it's an unspoken trend in the american mind that it's way easier for Socialists to tap into than "liberty" and "small government".

Agree, but they're not the front line. The hability to change society always comes with the conquest of political power. Unions, co-ops, social movements, parliaments are how we organize and increase class consciousness, not the things that will change the political order per se.

If you can afford the time and the money, go ahead.

I agree overall, and I think that instead of being quiet we should say that we're mostly focused on economic and labour issues, not in encompassing progressive change in all aspects of society and risking overextension.

I'm all for this, and I think it's incompatible with many of your other suggestions.

I'm split on this. ANTIFA is retarded, but social movements need to earn respect and confidence of those who share their concerns even if they're using the wrong tactics and have the wrong attitude. In a few years most of ANTIFA members will have come to terms with the limitations of their approach and start seeking alternatives, and it will be a lot better if in the meantime we have earned their trust by pairing our criticism with a defense of their civil rights and the use of violence against Fascism, instead of their resentment.

This reminds me of Ralph Miliband:
"In the late Sixties and Seventies, he was in great demand at campuses throughout Britain and North America. He winced at some of the excesses ('Why the hell do you have to wear these stupid combat jackets?' I remember him asking a group of us during a big meeting on Vietnam in 1968), but remained steadfast."

And I agree with it.

Again, I have some problems with this.

Social media presence is good, memes are good, being extremely online is good, but we have to ask ourselves what we're really trying to achieve here. It's difficult for me to look at a Socialist meme page on Facebook and not wonder what exactly is the point of having thousands of different panels where "seize the means of production!" is the punchline, and what Stirner's, Bordiga's or some other meme philosopher's face in vaporwave aesthetics (or whatever it's called, I'm old) is trying to achieve. We shouldn't make the point of our online presence to sell soundbites and meme faces at the lowest quality to corner a big market of meme-hungry dipshits who will never really seek any further education on the subject, but to get people to question things, and to direct ourselves to those who are willing to listen. We need an unified, solid, cohesive set of ideas and assumptions and a steadily growing community (even if at a slower pace) that will refine and defend those ideas, not desperate pleads of popularity based on shitty content that never really teaches anyone anything and will fade away once "Stalin did nothing wrong" lose its comedic value.

As terrible as the people themselves are, the didatic internet presence of libertarians and atheists back in the day seems a lot more congenial to our current needs than the shitty memes of the alt-right. Let's focus on building an educated and united community that will work towards taking Socialist theory and practice to the masses later, not attracting an endless stream of teenagers that think irony will solve the world's problems.


Oh user I don't go for the potty mouth thing

Not sure what's the point of this. Making figures that were deliberately left out of our constructed, collective memory prominent again is very important, and we need to introduce the Socialist viewpoint of different epochs and different questions to the public, and there's no better way of doing this than by invoking the memory of Socialists who lived in those times and dealt with those issues. So there's some value in being esoteric with your references, if you're working to bring new thinkers and organizers into the mainstream lexicon.

As long as the latter part here is not a call for the return to the days of AdBusters and culture jamming go ahead

Yeah obviously

Leave third world identity politics behind too while you're at it. Twitter Stalinists make the people currently destroying the Democratic Cops of America look normal.

In general, I don't think this is a horrible list but it's a bit too elementary and it's plagued by the assumption that life is like one of those Aaron Sorkin scripts, where the liberal hero quotes the bible or Reagan to a conservative who is then left speechless by how his own narratives were cleverly used against him. Things don't work like this, so don't try to squeeze your way into the american mind by outmaneuevering all the accusations that will be thrown against you or by trying to make yourself presentable under the assumptions of the prevailing political discourse. It will be tough at first, but the tools and techniques you'll learn by systematically discrediting their narratives and institutions and advancing your own will stay with you for life. You grow with the challenges you face, and a Socialist movement that is not afraid of saying what it is and what it wants in a world of post-cold war neoliberalism, lethargy, cynicism, radical faddism and resurgent Fascism will grow into something great if it can respond to those challenges. Let's not crawl but force ourselves into the political arena, and let's not shy away from anything or leave anything behind in the process.

The idea that we should hide our true intentions is silly. Everyone is accused of hiding their true intentions. Since none of us are running for office anytime soon, an easy way of normalizing socialism is by being openly socialist and being nice to others. That's really it. If we start small communes whose main objective is to feed homeless and pass out pamphlets then we normalize the shit out of it. People will easily be swayed to your side if you can demonstrate that you're nice. Education and charitable acts have been the modus operandi of the most powerful religions in the world, and religions have more power over lives to this day than anything else. Once regular people aren't scared of socialists anymore (The Red Scare legitimately broke people) they will be easy to convert.

Otherwise, if we hide our powerlevel, we'll be accused of doing just that, and we'll have all the loving adoration of every new movement that starts in America (immediate adoption by some, immediate anger from people who just hate new things, and immediate skepticism on whether it's truly different from Socialism, or just reinventing the wheel)

yeah that's the point

user the third world doesn't have identity politics

Thanks for the imput.

Nobody is saying hide our intentions. We can openly advocate for workplace democracy, the abolition of capitalism, etc. It’s just a question of labels and branding. In that case our enemies have two options. They can accuse us of being socialists, which would force them to admit that socialism isn’t le ebil gubmint and gulags, but democracy and person agency. Or they can not call us socialists and thus we don’t have to deal with that baggage and our ideas will be assessed based on their perceived merits alone, and not some strawman backed by the Black Book of Communism.

oy vey

shut it down.


I honestly think most of these anti-idpolers are just straight white men that want to evade admitting their privilege
really pathetic


That you and I agree on quite a bit is telling how basic this corrective thinking is.

I actually agree that if you want to succeed you're going to have to play up nationalism since it is part of this country's religious myth of the founding of this country. To be 'American' is to be whatever you emphasize, but the importance is to claim it is indeed American.

Don't even mention collectivism. Ever. Do not hint at it ever. Burgers are individualists, they want to know the collective is ultimately to get them ahead, not that they will help the collective. You have to play up to their selfishness in order to bring them into collective goals, but don't call it collective.

Collectives aren't more profitable than the average business, idk where you get that. They're naturally less competitive and profitable in that they do not have the drive to amass capital and compete ruthlessly like regular corporations. But that's of no consequence to burgers, just emphasize the higher income and quality of life, who cares if they aren't working for a global corporation?

Nice dream, but empirically false. You should do it, but don't do it expecting to be the spark of the next social movement or you'll disappoint yourself and be depressed over delusions of grandeur.

Facts and rational arguments don't convince people, and this is a well established phenomenon. You're not going to convince the vast majority of conservatives or centrists. People see Sargon lose all the time, yet they literally cannot see that he lost because they don't think. You should know theory, you should be able to debate strongly, but that's not going to win converts.

Internet discourse and social media have been empirically shown to be insular and incestuous. 90%+ self-segregate into their own echo chambers, leftypol is literally such an echo chamber. Sharing and posting shit does not in fact spread anything to where it would be worth much, you're just preaching to the choir.

Debs? Bookchin? Jesus Christ man, no. The IWW is also a no go, no one wants to be affiliated with radicalism of that sort. If you want to quote Left radicals that are for normies you quote the ones that are American as FUCK and which they cannot deny nor dismiss since they are part of the American pantheon of the fathers of the nation. Thomas Payne, Lincoln, and the leftist tendencies of Jefferson etc. The founding fathers, and people like Adam Smith, would HATE modern capitalism and this country. Appeal to the legends who have clear anti-capitalist tendencies and did not glorify it for its own sake and unbound selfishness.

Facts don't convince, good luck with that.

All in all, a fine recipe for becoming a typical euro sucdem reformist, and a terrible path for everything else.

< Don't even mention collectivism. Ever. Do not hint at it ever. Burgers are individualists, they want to know the collective is ultimately to get them ahead, not that they will help the collective. You have to play up to their selfishness in order to bring them into collective goals, but don't call it collective.

Anal Water, are you even American? I get the strong impression that you don't identify with the average worker 'round these parts.

< Facts don't convince, good luck with that.

Regardless, as I've written before in this thread, successful implementation of these guidelines requires nuance and charisma. You seem to be under the impression that we think people can be converted just by vomiting facts at them, which would be a disastrous assumption for any political position.

she's cute

Very cute. :3

Tbh I adore Kobayashi as a character. If Tohru hadn't rolled around to solve her alienation and workplace strife, I could totally see her getting radicalized and agitating her co-workers. Maybe even browsing this very board.


I smell the used leather of an armchair.

you're not helping


I try my best.

No way, the way I see it, if you put both economic and social issues in your platform, obviously you'll lose support from conservatives, but not from all of them. I think many of them would like the economic program so much that they would stay anyway. I think it's too important to let slide.

It's not like anyone would outright ignore social issues though (save ☭TANKIE☭s, but they don't exist in America.) Lucky for us, a good amount of liberal rhetoric focuses on stuff like affirmative action and workplace discrimination, which we could argue would be solved through democratic workplaces. If they (perhaps understandably) return that modern democracy is a sham, we'd have the choice of either pointing out that the presidential election is run by lobbyists, or publicly ridiculing them for not having faith in our democratic institutions. It's a dirty trick, but one that's been exploited by our opposition countless times.

However, I'd also argue that the average American is more likely to commune over workplace-related strife and dissatisfaction with the current government than transgender rights. Whereas the latter is just a happy afterthought to most people, former two are phenomena that affect everyone but the business-owners directly, and have invariably caused significant frustration for the individual. Obviously we could tailor our message depending on our audience, but we need to harness that rage.

use an american gun
AK-47 and the RPG are essentially recognized as symbols of america's enemies

much of this is good advise for us yuropoor communists as well.
also you can get rid of the hammer and sickle for all i care, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. in some eastern euro countries they are prohibited anyway iirc.
however, please don't abandon the color red! a color can never be prohibited. also, red is the historic color of the international political left since basically forever, you are part of that hurritage as well. so use it. fly red flags along burger flags, along trade union flags etc. don't overdo it, but do not get rid of it. it helps to upkeep solidarity and unity among yourselves and leftists elsewhere.