/Syn/ - Syndicalist General

Syndicalist thread, talk about theory, books, LARPing, etc… DeLeonists welcome.

BTW what the fuck is this 200 character thing, i haven't been here in a while and this is the first shit i see, what happened? Whatever keep it nice ITT

Other urls found in this thread:


inb4 ban.
What do you think of Sorel's stance on proletariat violence? I feel like it is a necessary part of any revolution but the general strike also seems a little outdated in today's digital era.


Gotchu fam

Marxism-Deleonism is better than Narcho anything, t. MD with MZT and Leninist thought mixed in like Socialism (or syndicalism) in one country etc. and Cockshottist cybernetics.

I live in a third world country and a general strike doesn't seem too far off here.

Sorel's stance on violence is a little too triggering for the regular worker t b h

I want to write my own Marxist-Deleonist theory but im so bad at writing



Yeah he was too sectarian but still the GOAT left wing American writer

Stop being socdem faggots.

I'm sorelian ancom, I don't think it's outdated. "Reflection on violence" are very actual tbh

IWA-AIT > … > reformist IWA-AIT > reformist unions > … (long, long nothing) > IWW

Why did Sorel turn into a fascist?

soooo somehow this is Social Democracy? Damn dude

Actualy, he didn't. He turned into conservative, but never actually supported fascism. Fascist appropiated sorelian tactics, that's all,

It is socdem, just come out the closet and pick up the rose.

Oh sorry but what made him change his mind? Was it WW1?

Marx and Engels thought you guys were reactionary
Socialism does not eliminate Commodity production, Communism does, however Socialism eliminates most Commodity production.
abolished retard.

Ultras not welcome, you already have your general with the same OP as this one for some reason

I'm a pro ML MD ☭TANKIE☭, I can't wait for Ultras to get permabanned

You can call Sorel first anti-idpol syndycalist, but it isn't intellectually fair to call him fascist.

Well, he lost faith in Marxism, but didn't lost hate, deisre for destruction and class struggle. His story is a lesson for us to prevent bad ways to archieve our goals and have strong faith in our values.

That 's the thing, a general strike like they had back in the industrial era would only be effective in 3rd world countries that are newly industrializing and have a large class of people working in manufacturing. The thing in burgerland (and most of the "Western" World) is that they have outsource almost all manufacturing jobs overseas. We have a large service based economy now and they are harder to unionize due to Right to work laws enacted in the states.

A lot of it still holds up but I feel the general strike should target areas of economic activity. Walking around with signs that say "Fuck trump" does fuckall. The left needs to adapt and better its strike tactics.

lol who the fuck is this guy

I think you're wrong in your perception how 1st world production works. I know it's often present both in social liberal, or some funny maoist thirdworldist circles, that all people in 1st world are in majority petty bourgeoise and they don't do productive labour, but it's not like that. It's true that many people from home nations in Western Europe etc. are higher tier workers or middle class, but it's not true that production lies far away from their houses.
In France, UK, Germany, etc., there's still high number of classic industrial labourers and we should aim at organizing them to strike. At the same time we sould act globally and organise our Asian and African comrades. We have lot work to do but if we do it well, we win.

Marx and Engels were for the abolishment of the state after DotP, not for keeping it around with red flags. That your utopia has to feature a state just shows how poor your understanding of the state, in both the marxcuck and anarkiddie sense, is.
Socialism and Communism are the same thing and that thing ends commodity production.
Calling it something else doesn't abolish it. Your not-wage labor just calls the employer something else and paints a red star on the firm.

Make your own board if you need a safe space for utopian larping. Trade unions are dead or on life support and a few dozen, to be generous, dedicated autists won't bring them back.

You could just head to >>>/marx/ where your red capitalism is safe from attack.

I love how every decent thread gets fucked over by some retard anarchist or leninist

Fuck off somewhere else if you don't want to be criticized, Holla Forums isn't your safe space.

What do right to work laws do? Brainlet here

obyś się nie zesrał socjaldemokrato pierdolony

Practicaly killed off unions.

Why the fuck do you ultras always have to shit on every thread around?

Fuck your commodity obsession, all the bullshit you want isn't ever gonna happen in a single lifetime.
Socialism is a multi-generation process, and you can't achieve it without direct control of the means of production by the working class.

How did the USSR have wage labor? Is wage labor just getting paid a according to the value of your labor? Even if you and society is paying you?

Any socialism with the law of vlaue has no workers control since the law of value still dominates society.

Fucking literally. You worked for your wage, then it's wage labour .

Ultras are the biggest utopian fools around, most of you are incels probably

Yes, I agree, but social democratic opportinists like you are even worse.

if you pay yourself a wage is that wage labor?

t. someone who couldn't correctly define utopian

I wasn't trying to imply that at all. I don't think that all workers in Western-Europe and America are petty bourgeois. I just think a big section of the population in developed countries work more in the service sector now. The industrial worker is no where near as prevalent as they use to be. That being said there is still oil field workers and whatnot plus the examples you have pointed. The point that I'm trying to get at is that we have to focus unionizing the service worker like the communists of their time organized the industrial worker

You can get fired for starting a union. It fucks over workers and gives employers more power


Assume they were democratic would it still be wage labor?

have fun with your ideology that does nothing but abolish needlessly cruel bosses and makes the workers exploit, fire and force themselves to work harder.

At first, it's offtopic, because we talk about revolutionary syndycalism not your etatist fetishes.

At second, ask yourself do you have wage labour in so called democratic states in the West or does social democracy had wage labour, then you can think about Soviet Union system. Seriously, I don't have a energy for edgy western teens fapping to their imaginations about failed state capitalist system with marxist superstructure.

We must do it to remind you that socialism isn't when the state does stuff or when workplace democracy occurs.

Workers were paid a wage for their labor.

You're the one trying to breathe life into a dead movement out of nostalgia you're too young to have. Unions are dying off and the period when they could have been revolutionary is long in the past, that you cling to this failed praxis in the hope revolution could spring forth from a dry well is the essence of utopianism.

they're doing WHAT?

Can you pay yourself a wage?

in Soviet Union, you pay a wage to yourself xddd

Western states don't control production. Socialist states do. If the socialist states were actually "the will of the proletariat" or whatever could it still be considered wage labor since they are effectively paying themselves?


Yes they control.

Where'd that come from???
Doesn't sound bad tbh
Well no bosses means less exploitation but I know my ideology isn't utopian
As long as it is a democratic firing by the workers. There is such thing a shitty coworker

If I do work and them put money in box and pick it up am I a wage laborer.

Do you seriously believe that nobody in the public sector is a wage worker?

How? Wage labor is when a capitalist can uses your labor power as a commodity such as being able to hire and fire workers. This didn't exist in the Soviet Union

The hell of capitalism is the firm. Not the fact that the firm has a boss. Bosses don't do things because they are evil but because they are driven by real market forces. Co-ops also would be driven to do this sort of things, As co-ops still create for a profit they would be incentivized by the market to make as much profit as possible. Co-ops would need to invest in labor saving technology as to stay afloat in the capitalist system, sure they could stay alive without it for a while but they would have to innovate and spend more money on machines in order to generate profit. Workers in any market society would still have to push themselves to work harder generate more value to stay afloat in the market. They are still generating for a profit so they would have to pay themselves less in order to spend more on other things like labor saving tech. Once they get the labor saving tech it will reduce the need for work in the firm. Machines wouldn't be used to lower the amount of time each worker has to work but instead raise the pace and intensity of the work so they can make more money to spend on more labor saving tech so they can make more money to spend on labor saving tech… In a market "socialist" society the falling rate of profit would also still exist meaning co-ops would have to spend more and more and pay themselves less and less to make money as the rate of profit goes downwards. This means co-ops would be incentivized by the market to exploit themselves just in the way the capitalists would have before. If the firm is hitting hard times workers would either be fired on have to lower their own pay inorder to stay afloat just like in capitalism. My main point which you seem to be failing to grasp is that the market forces buiness to act unethically and co-ops still exist in a market and still produce for profits.

said the bordigist retard lmao

The workers movement lives on as long as their is capitalism in one form or another.

Your one person bookclub is not the workers' movement.

My bookclub is not the workers movement and neither is your union.



fuck off m9

If you work in a co-op you own for a wage you are a wage laborer. It doesn't matter if it's more comfortable than burger capitalism, it is still capitalism.

No, not everyone who disagrees with social democracy venerates the ravioli ravager.

LARPers are bad too, they act like you for example

How the fuck are you going to continue industrialization and material output without the firm?

The rate of profit falls because less and less money is in circulation, because the bourgies are parasites who suck it all away. If the workers are also the owners, then wealth continues to circulate, eventually as workers begin to realize the full potential of their agency the profit motive itself will wither away.

hi pierre

Thats not why the rate of profit falls, read Marx. How do we continue industrialization and material output without the firm? What makes you think firms are efficient? Immediate nationalization of all firms would be the very first step to true collective control which would build up productive capacity faster than any market could.


You can't abolish something without replacing with something else. What do you propose as an alternative to the firm?

Collective control of all production by all members of society.

+ a more flexible devision of labor where one person could do many things instead of having one job.

In what physical form does that take?

How is that impossible in a democratic workplace?

I don't know exactly I'm not a utopian but probally some kind of democracy.

You can't do everything all in one firm.

I think that unions have proved to be not enough to ignite the revolution, not now or even during the golden years of syndicalism. However, I don't think that unions and syndicalist strategies should be completely abandoned. A radical revolutionary party should have an affiliated radical union to fight in the workplace while the party might fight in the parliament. Throw in some sort of "federation of worker co-ops" to build dual power against the state and capitalism by providing black panther style community help (yeah yeah, I know co-ops aren't socialism, just chill) and I think we might be on a road to a real revolution.
just throwing around some dumb ideas

Maybe not everything, but democratic workplaces are more fluid by design, one year you may be turning wrenches, the next you could be driving the forktruck, but in the end, you will always have control over how the "firm" utilizes it's surplus.

Like Marx said: while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.

i just want to let you know that you're debating with a memer that doesn't entirely know what he's repeating. "hell is the firm" has to do with the existence of markets, it's not literally the fucking firm. it means that if there's still a market capitalism is not done with because people are still producing for exchange.

No its also the firm in itself not just the market.

I kinda figured, but from my perspective, a lot of the hate market-socialism gets is the market part of it, and people are grossly underestimating the revolutionary potential of workplace democracy.

Consider this, if all firms were democratic in nature, the stock market itself would cease to exist.

No change would take place in capitalism simply by getting rid of bosses. Workers would have to do to themselves everything bosses do to them now.

You've completely ignored the point I'm trying to make.

BO are you fucking kidding me with these bans? You seriously need to drink bleach my dude. Bottoms up

Leftypol is fucking toast man

the point of co-ops is to have an infastructure of taking care of workers, something BY which we can weather the storm of waning capitalism and which wields actual power and which will actually mean something when they strike, its not an end in itself

also, same thread on
free of sectarian drama mamas

I'm not actually Pierre but I do admire Pierre a lot!