Daily reminder that if you don't read theory, that leftism is merely a personal flavor or fashion statement or meme...

the important thing regarding rafiq posting, for me, is less his argumentation style or even his theoretical stances, as tasty as they may be, it's very simply that someone takes a theoretical argument seriously. it's soul-crushingly rare to see that in these postmodern times.

The left is fucked, between shitty Leninists who want USSR 2: Electric Boogaloo, and shitty anarchists who are more afraid of the state than afraid of capitalism, and gate keeping asshats like you. I'm not going to wait up. I'm a prole, and I don't want to spend what little free time I have reading dry as fuck theory (I mean I try every now and then), and sectarian shit flinging on commie forums, because that's the only use I would get out of any theory I read, until the left un-fucks itself. You can fuck right off, m8

You read like a card, you intellectually lazy sop. Leftism clearly doesn't need you.

We already have enough theorists. What we need are boots on the ground. Every org I have ever been involved in has always suffered from having way too many wannabe theorists. Shit is awful.

...

People who aren't theorists are useless and will only hamper the movement. All of you except for OP are lifestylists.

Hence I do not wish to see it called 'rafiqposting'. The focus is on what I refer to as 'intellectual sincerity'. This is the vehicle which drives reasoned discourse and whatnot, however much the memers and the irony-spouting oaves might wish to say otherwise. One must ask: who is committed to making the analyses here? Might it be Mr Snarky Easy BTFO man who consistently asks for endless 'proofs' while repeating his arguments as if his definitions of various terms are final and 'authoritative' while failing to understand the nuances and meanings which other people use in their writings, all whilst failing to perform research beyond cherrypicking studies and easy searches? On top of that, he continues his incessant screeching about how conclusions for the social sciences must be reached in the same way as those of the natural sciences! Of course he is not committed; he doesn't understand the communist movement and its methodology in addition to the natures of powerful analyses.

Let's see your analyses of the current state of the world and your praxis along with your critiques of the theory which you are so derisive about
Then you have no revolutionary discipline, meaning that you are not prepared to analyse the world.
==BUT YOU SEEM TO JUDGE YOURSELF AS BEING ORIGINAL BY SAYING THAT YOU ARE NOT ALL THOSE OTHER PEOPLE! LOOK AT ME, I DON'T WANT TO WAIT. THE THEORY WILL FALL ON MY LAP!

One must engage with those theorists, find their intellectual choking points and discipline them. If their theory is not sound then that is not a reason to cut the numbers.

>I HAVE A LIFE SO LET ME POST ON THIS IMAGEBOARD
Ask yourself why you're here, if not for the feeling of identifying as a 'communist'.

Theory must be used to give organization a genuine and meaningful goal. Look at the hundreds of milquetoast socdem with co-ops parties, like Socialist Alternative and Socialist Alliance. They do not understand what capitalism actually is, and they think shifting ownership will solve all of its ills. If you asked them how to abolish the present state of things, they'd probably assume you were talking about 'the patriarchy' or CEOs. It's easy to see why people need theory, but reading theory and doing nothing to contribute to the greater socialist cause is an ill in its self. It's not as outright detrimental as the theoryless parties seeking to replicate capitalism, but it's definitely not a net positive.

Why would you ever ask someone that?

In your theory books, when they tell you that communism is a mass theory that needs the working class behind it to create a working revolution, did they also tell you not to call them names when they're on your side, and generally are keen on this communism thing is, but maybe doens't understand what a commodity is, or what the difference between Use Value, Exchange Value and Price is.

Some knowledge of theory is helpful, but for anybody except agitators, organizers and the vanguard, expertise in it is unnecessary, and is NEVER (and I repeat NEVER) going to be universal in the working class. The working class has other shit to do.

Yet that working class has liberal ideas regarding communism floating around in their minds, regardless of whether they support it or not. If one promises 'democracy' to them, then they might drag society back to liberal democracy. Furthermore, there is no requirement to teach someone the labour theory of value in great depth for them to understand the goal of the communist movement: the destruction of the social divisions of capitalism and reactionary systems. Even if the reading material doesn't exist or is poorly-adapted, there can be motions towards the creation of propaganda.

Like it or not, reading economic textbooks, and socialist theory (especially the academic type), is dreadfully boring for most people. I try and read theory every now and then, but I would rather be doing 20 other things, and I only have so much time in my life. I'm not saying I'm a good or disciplined leftist, I'm saying that this is the reality you have to deal with, not great leftists, with only the basics of theory, who would rather do something else than read an academic textbook, because they've had a shitty day at work, but want communism, because the basic theory I have read says it's pretty rad. Saying "you aren't good enough" is not any way to get any mass movement going, especially when, unless you are in a position where revolutionary theory is vitally important (organizers, vanguard etc.) It's good enough getting by on basic theory.

If you can't explain a concept in leftist theory to the masses, clearly, and in less than five minutes, the left is sunk.

...

Vast majority of the proletariat lacks the intelligence and/or training to properly interpret the appropriate theoretical texts. There is nothing wrong with that. That's why the Vanguard is necessary.

Then you have no discipline. If you are trying to be a theorist then you're doing it wrong
We don't even have the coherent applications of our theory and praxis to start doing that, only the masturbatory masses of 'communists' and a few dedicated intellectuals on little-known blogs. You've ignored in screeching about how we're going to disseminate concepts when we don't even have them.

Thats why Soviet and China failed. The people need to understand what is communism and why it's necessary, otherwise the revolution turns back to capitalism.

very high-quality post

How is sitting in armchairs reading for self-gratification (and to prove that you are a """TRUE COMMUNIST""") any better than ADF sitting under an underpass writing Mao x Naruto slashfics? Until you have actually contributed to theory and to the movement, you're just smelling your own farts and basking in your unwarranted self-importance.

Is there a collection of rafiq posts anywhere?

This. And for fuck's sake people, there is data and then there is analyzing data. If you have shoddy data, there are some tricks to make the most out of that (tricks you will rather get from a mediocre math teacher than Zizek), but you can't infinitely go on substituting one for the other. There are two meanings to theory: 1. Making models to predict things in the ＲＥＡＬ ＷＯＲＬＤ and constantly check your old thinking against the new data. 2. Being an unbearable fagot who states banalities in such a convoluted fashion that they appear as mysteries. To this sub-culture, for something to be considered theory, it cannot have direct and obvious implications. It has to be something that gets translated/interpreted by high priests in light of situational considerations for the plebs. (the shittiness of the advice a person in the priest group gives is somehow never something that threatens their position as an expert.) Guess which of these two is actually useful.

Rafiq doesn't read.

DISCIPLINE INTENSIFIES

somehow you need this repeated to you even though this exact point has been repeated several times in just this thread: we, as the left, do not currently know exactly what we want, and even if we did we lack a concrete method of achieving it. in times like this, theory is our best, and honestly only recourse. the point isn't that we should only ever do theory, but clearly our current political constellation isn't approachable by simply regurgitating the ideas of previous communist movements. in this kind of situation, what is needed is to return to theory as a way of rethinking our current predicament.

I'm not here to dogmatically defend the guy, but this is just so clearly incorrect. his posts pretty obviously betray a serious theoretical engagement.

"predict things?" what the fuck do you think marx spent literally his entire philosophical career doing? i'll give you a hint: it wasn't fantasizing about what life might be like under communism, it was a direct engagement with the real material conditions of his era, which is to say a direct theoretical approach in regards to the capitalism of his time.

i don't know how this isn't painfully apparent to you, but marxism is not a predictive discipline. for fuck sakes, this is the absolute BASIS of dialectical materialism. yes, there are aspects of marxist theory which can be and have successfully been used to predict capitalist developments, however the foundation of the marxist method has always been its understanding of HISTORICAL PROCESSES. to repeat, this is what is necessary today, a historical understanding of our present situation, something which is not accomplished by spur-of-the-moment activism.

of course theorizing is not an immediately helpful tool for the working class, but it takes a certain amount of maturity to admit that presently, we don't have much to offer in the way of real action. this is only meaningfully accomplished by an honest appraisal of the current state of things, which is to say the use of theory.

This is what happens when you decide to LARP instead of getting your theory.

Daily reminder that f you are not out agitating regardless of how much theory you read you are also useless to the left

Dear teenage "theorist",
I used to be on RevLeft years ago. Rafiq didn't read and didn't know what he was talking about. I have occasionally visited the place, and now it's a ghost town and Rafiq is still the same. (Before becoming a "Marxist" he was a Muslim, go figure). He's mentally ill like ckaihatsu, and if you can't tell that from the way he interacts with others, I have bad news for you. What on earth makes you think that he knows anything about Marx? Talking like ColdSteel doesn't make you a Marxist. Here is a typical example of how he "discusses" with people: Somebody asks the generic question about to what extent intelligence might be determined by genes. Rafiq does what Rafiq usually does, he has a total spaz-out and vomits out pages upon pages of text how that's racist, and at no point does the possibility occur to him that the distribution of genes important for intelligence might not have much correlation with the distribution of genes for looks, like skin color. Try finding something by Rafiq where he actually discusses a book, quotes and summarizes, answers questions about it.
I predict you will have to take back or qualify that statement soon, boy.
Well, that was fast.

Could this be considered bourge snobbery?

Translates to today: OMG the world a shit! We need to protest everything! No privilege must be left unchecked, no trashcan shall remain unscorched! Here, sign this petition, sing this chant, hold this banner, now hold that banner, vote uncritically, vote critically, retweet this event, like share and subscribe to that channel, spread the word! The word about what? Exactly! Everything is fascism, everything is totalitarian, nothing is sufficiently democratic! Don't eat meat, don't wear clothes made by child labor, buy ethically! Have an opinion on everything, have critical insight on nothing! Share that opinion! Have long debates on facebook with the opposing opinion! (Some people are so reactionary and brainwashed!) Join a union, join a party, join a picket line, pick up the mic, share your spoken word poetry, share your sorrows, shout out for hashtag revolution! Then get older, look back, realize you achieved nothing, and blame the sheeple.

Has always translated to: let's figure out what the fuck is going on, what can be done and what needs to be done, let's think about prerequisites to everything, analyze transformation processes, detect future openings and present closures, and when we're done, let's create the movement that abolishes the present state of things.

Read a book, nigger, or at least learn from online lectures of Marxist geneticists: youtube.com/watch?v=ni8kL5TTRtA

kek

Oi cunt, I am a member of Socialist Alliance and have been on branch execs and Resistance national exec. We aren't SAlt and we arent socdems

We have a full platform of workers democracy and socialist policies, try reading them (and critiquing) instead of running your mouth

And what a humble laugh that is, since you have so many with your extra chromosome!

I have yet to see any evidence of Rafiq actually having read as much as Muke, even though he has a headstart on the radical online left of several years. But apparently, all it takes to become a Super-Marxist is to talk in angry-man voice the whole time.

...

imho he's just drunk all the time, at least that's how I post when I'm drunk

Fuck yeah now we know who's bringing the weed to the hypothetical aussie Holla Forums get together

not everybody has the time to read they. at they very least they should just understand Marx at a non-surface level.

Activism and footsoldiery without a coherent theory and leadership to guide them is useless at best and counterproductive at worst, at least with respect to actually achieving socialism.

This. Look at what happened with OP's friend in this thread:

Read Mao's "On Practice"
marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_16.htm

Lol, another meaningless term
No such thing, you illiterate succdem

I'm on the verge of advocating for 'workplace dictatorship' (as with Lenin) whenever I see 'd@w' advocated.

...

Por que no los dos?

*picks up "A Flow-of-Funds Perspective on the Financial Crisis Volume II: Macroeconomic Imbalances and Risks to Financial Stability"*

Can someone tell me what a "leftcom" is? I think I get the jist of it from wikipedia but I don't understand why it's a meme

Wrong

Also wrong, but more than OP.

You're being dishonest, Holla Forumsyp false flag.
revleft.space/vb/threads/195884-Book-recommendations?p=2874217#post2874217
revleft.space/vb/threads/195782-Ernesto-Laclau-theorist-for-new-workers-movements?p=2873361#post2873361

...

They hate us because we tell them the truth.

they memed about armchairs and being comfy and other people meme about them because socdems and MLs are stuck in a cycle of impotent activism because they never bothered to read

I used to read theory or articles on theory but stopped since you become increasingly isolated from normal people. It also has little to no bearing on your personal life since there is no career for revolution. Unless you count professional activism as one, but we already know through practice that it doesn't work.

It's every communist who was critical of the Bolsheviks before the second world war. It's an entirely useless term and Bordigists only push it so people think they are cool like the councilists and not just diet Bolshevism.

>revleft.space/vb/threads/195884-Book-recommendations?p=2874217#post2874217
Rafiq the wise:

There's little authenticity in being the political equivalent of a warhammer lore nerd.

Being invested in the fundamentals of your politics is not even a reasonable comparison to make with consumerism. This post is in fact part of the same stupidity behind some posters who dismiss the importance of learning mathematics and other "fields and things that won't really apply in real life".

this attitude is counterproductive.

Yes, I did intend to link to something else.
revleft.space/vb/threads/195907-Thoughts-on-Jameson-s-American-Utopia?p=2873917#post2873917
You didn't understand his point, now I need to find the post where he says that people don't know what it means to be a communist.

Important thread, bumping.

>revleft.space/vb/threads/195907-Thoughts-on-Jameson-s-American-Utopia?p=2873917#post2873917
avin a giggle, m8!?! Want some hexagonal water with that?

OP IS RIGHT
READ BORDIGA, BITCHES

The whole point of the full idea about worker owner ship as I understand it, is that communism, abolition of the value form, as you say, will not come about through some grand revolution, there may be a grand revolution, but the revolution itself will only take it so far, just like other modes of production, it will exist alongside and within the outmoded modes for an extremely long time, modes of production are also never completely distinct in themselves, each has its own stages and progressions within that specific mode of production, for example the difference between capitalism now and capitalism in 1850 or feudalism as it stands today versus feudalism in 1500.
On top of this, total abolition of the value form requires a total system, that is one which dominates if not the whole globe than at least the most significant part of it, considering the demands of modern technology, minerals and such, really to be able to fully distribute goods you need to be in control of the entire thing. No matter what happens, in every eventuality, even after "conquering" this globe from capitalism which will in itself take an extremely long time, the development of the industrial forces in these areas will be an extremely long process.
In short, there will be a lower stage, perhaps (and most likely in my opinion) even a lower lower stage.
I am not saying that muh co-ops are socialism, but a co-operative economy is one in which the work force is more directly engaged with production, much more, they themselves oversee it even if market forces still control it. Further, they are the ones making the decisions which effect their relationship to it, through working standards and practices and so on.
Worker ownership therefore creates conditions by which class consciousness is "organically" imbued on the worker.
These conditions are not communism, but they are conditions from which communism in my opinion is more likely to emerge.
On top of this, when the ownership of the property is literally in their hands, they have much more power, should they have the inclination to Communism. Sure, they would still have the market, but the market can be more easily abolished when production is in the workers hands
It gets workers into the practice of managing themselves, which is necessary are we ever to achieve a stateless, classless society.
On top of that, radical reform agitates the populace and causes reaction, while we have absolutely zero chance of revolution in the west, we need to build reformist structures, if only to agitate with their existence. Agitate directly for revolution in any European country and you will be laughed at. You can't go zero-revolution.

As well as this,the material gain they will have from the private owner no longer existing is a short term benefit that sustain the revolution. Plus such a union could fund other types of agitation and education and organise organically

...

I found a book that contains the following Marx:

-On the Jewish Question
-Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right
-Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844

Should I buy it? Is it a good starting spot for Marx?

bump

what a pleb

I LIKE TO TAKE NOTES AND UNDERLINE

There's a reason why the Bolsheviks called imbeciles like you Anglo-Saxon philistines.

if anything you're the pleb for going on a trot website instead of going on marx2mao.com

I'm from the continent though, m8. I am deeply sorry that I offend you by having the basic knowledge and thinking skills it takes to figure out that Rafiq is a pseud and mentally unstable. He's like Revleft's Rebel or A.W.

I take notes in a separate notebook and copy passages instead of underlining

If everyone that is part of the emancipatory project has to read theory first, we're all fucked. You can be a leftist ideologically and not have read a single page of Marx. Stop being an leftist intellectual and start spreading class consciousness with the shit you learned.

I don't object to this, but somewhat the point of this discussion was to set reasonable standards of articulation comparable to the top circles of intellectuals in Marxist theory around a century ago, which is very achievable for many of us with the right resources quickly and freely available at any time, but there was hardly any drive for it.

Information is also digested in different ways today. I would much rather listen to a slavoj or marx or bordiga audio book, but there are none that I have seen.

I recall that there was a leftcom audiobook project started a while ago. They might have some Bordiga and other texts on YouTube.

You realise most people who have taken part in revolutions have not read theory

You have no idea what you're talking about, including how theory relates to 'practice', or even the bare history of past revolutionary times.

Before 1917 most people in Russia could notread, so obviously they weren't all reading theory, so how did they carry out the revolution? In fact, for almost all revolutions in history, inability to read by most or a significant party of the population is a precondition

No its because you say things like this, acting as if you have one pure truth and nothing else is even remotely correct, being a bunch of arrogant bastards

Read the fucking thread before posting.

organising communities to self manage and self defend. Bringing communities together in solidarity. There is no reason you cannot do this as well as read theory, I do both, and more. The existence of pseudo activism is not an excuse for you not to engage in what you deem to be useful activism. If you have the better idea, go implement it

Yeh and when are you done?
bud i thod rebultions habben spontaneously?

I entered the thread answering OP's bold claim

Because we're due for another recession soon. Potentially even bigger than the Great Depression.

The utter state of social liberals and social democrats

because the filthy, stupid, counter revolutionary leftcom said
Which is just the complete opposite of historical fact, in fact, most revolutions have been carried out by those without theory, and for them it has been an actual, real, armed struggle for their own survival, whereas faggotass internet man does nothing but post on the internet from a no doubt comfortable middle class bubble about "theory" and yet has contributed nothing physical or real to any kind of class struggle, and so all this "theory" is the "consumerist identity" they identify themselves with

the utter state of internet purists more like.
You seriously are so self justifying that you will claim your internet shitposting is more valuable than people who actually get out and organise, build parties, provide services, educate and organise the masses? You have delusions of grandeur if that is really what you think

Neither activism nor theory is the be-all, end-all. If you are more oriented towards activism why is there a need to shit on theory and vice versa? The fact of the matter is that things look pretty grim right now both in the theoretical domain (shitty succdem theory) and in the activism domain (shitty compulsion to do something, anything even if useless). Theorists and activists critical of these trends have a good deal in common and need to work together on both fronts.

lmao leftcom destroyed utterly

Do you truly believe that that idiotic blabbering from someone who has probably been a "leftist" for one week has any actual substance against the points stated in the OP and elaborated in the rest of the thread? What a stupid post.

none of the points have been countered

Much like how a liberal philistine's comments on his first reading of Marx or the like goes without a response back.

lmao being this up yourself

you really say things like this and don't understand why people don't like you? Thats autism friend

If only you could tell how much of a tool you are.

you are going to astonishing lengths to justify not having made a sinlge credible counter point

see

...

How much time did you just waste being a philistine constructing this fantasy out of your fixation with projecting a consumerist identity?

But user I read theory every day

I direct you to read the thread, Rafiq and some Lenin on tactics and strategy, because you are imagining an uninformed caricature of the arguments presented here.

daily reminder that you should stop being a bookcuck and start lifting you low t weakling!

This is you every time you try to push this dichotomy.

Its a greentext, of course its a caricature, nonetheless it is quite clear your "unless you are an 11th level grandmarxist priest you aren't a real socialist" elitism is disgusting and toxic. You go out and say these things you are saying to the working class, most likely you will get a smack

I read reality instead

reminder that even when you read it it's still a consumerist identity to you, just one that you decided to invest more time into in order to convince yourself that your choice was rational

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Reminder if you're not building the movement, then you're as useful to us as a liberal is.

lol.

That's why I hand out pamphlets outside the job centre on occasion, and organise leftist meetings.

If you think this is what theoretically disciplined communists do you are an illiterate memer who can't into history.

marxists.org/
Go wild.