Antifa?

so there's that word again. Recommend you actually look up and educate yourself on the difference between socialist and liberals. Because socialists aren't simply extreme liberals. I'd call liberals just as evil as conservatives

They are ok, not great but certainly not the worst. Too much liberalism, SJW bullshit, but they could be worse.

I'm a communist. Does that answer your question? I want to see capitalism as a part of history, something we look back at and laugh at how horrible it was. I want to see a world united in fulfilling human need, not fulfilling the bank accounts of the upper classes.

Irrelevant. Protectors of the status quo.
I don't really care about that dichotomy all too much.

But why risk the lives of your amigos and you just in the off-chance that you succeed in a revolution? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to go out and convince people of your views; then take them to the voting booth?

American Antifa is full with idpols

Greece Antifa :

You cannot vote out the current existing state of things.

...

Question friendo, what wouldn't be retarded larping to you? Should they be more or less violent?

Bullshit, the blacks got rights without having to blow whiteys head off. No, they got what they wanted through peacefull protest (mostly). Women got voting rights just by going up to federal buildings with picket fences.

But if this isn't anywhere near the things above, and has no chance, then explain that to me rather then be so vague.

Everyone's risking their life already under capitalism. in fact, it's not really a risk: it's guaranteed that capitalism will make you waste your life. "risk" implies a chance of a positive outcome.

the problems with the system are inherent with it and can't be resolved with bourgeois democracy; the system is designed to propagate itself, playing by its rules won't change things in a really meaningful way.
I still participate in politics because it still affects me, but ultimately only the revolution is the game changer.

This presupposes that the bourgeois will allow that. Not sure if American but look at what the democrats did to Bernie Sanders, all because the party leadership thought he was too "far left". And I say that slyly, because I consider him too far right. But nevertheless the ultra rich who own most of the countries of the world will never allow you to vote away their wealth and power. It simply cannot and will not happen. Even if it does, they will simply evade it til sentiments die down, after which they will relocate. This is a cancer that cannot be killed with simple tricks. It must be snuffed out.
And I don't say this meaning we need to go door to door and have people pledge themselves to us. But you can't use the upper class's tools against them. They designed systems, like checks and balances specifically to stop radical changes at the voting booth. So what we need is a revolution to subvert that.

All those movements were backed either by actual violence that is understated in modern high school history classes, or the threat of large scale violence is the movements’ demands were not eventually met (or they were actively put down).

None of those involve the abolition of the present state of things. The mode of production was still intact, the state was still intact, class rule was still intact, the value form was still intact.

Do you have any articles or wikipedia pages i could read up on that?

Ineffective, but their ability to trigger liberals and aut-right chuds gets critical support.

I;'m sorry but did you eat something today? yes? Are you under a sturdy roof right now? yes? Were you typing that on a computer that you bought with the money YOU earned at a job? yes?

So your telling me you'd buy a few gun's, do target practice with a few friends of yours in the woods, and then, say, initiate a coup in some local federal building?

Although id do agree that democracy isn't all it's cracked up to be, it still has the benefits that one man can't just do whatever the hell he wants at the expence of his people (at least there is some division of power to keep people from going too far).

imo you should go to the basics first
for example, you should understand the concept of state as a method of class domination - the rights blacks and women achieved via the ballot box (i.e. bourgeois-liberal democracy) were completely in line with the bourgeois-democratic state. the class rule is not threatened but strenghtened by the inclusion of racial minorities into the bourgeois society, for example. what we in the leftist camp want to do is move towards a classless society. some want a dictatorship of the proletarian class as a means to eventually abolishing class, some believe this abolition should be the immediate aim of the revolution.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#COINTELPRO

Eh, this is a tough question, I wouldn't really know and it heavily depends on what context we're talking about. as i said above, america doesn't have half the fash problem than eastern europe. they have loads of other problems, but their "fascists" are mostly postpubescent memers. if you're in america, i'd suggest worrying about not getting murdered by the police and worrying about fascists later. furthermore the fascists already have a habit of crying about persecution, i'd really like it if we didn't give them an excuse to do it without a reason. I had no idea who richard spencer was before he was punched.
with europe it's a little different because, as i said, these people literally operate like gangs. There's some pretty tough shit going on in greece, but i wanna say in most places they're not really relevant, although i wouldn't want to have a dozen of them having meetings near my home, so i understand if people organize to chase them away (or worse), i'm just skeptical about the effectiveness of their tactics. if it was proven that beating skinheads, raiding their homes when they're away and having shootouts in the streets actually discourage people from being fascists, then yeah, that would be different, but the thing is that these fights have been going for almost half a century with no sign of stopping. Maybe it's time to think of something else.

Yeah but they never did anything. In fact i read this one story about how a splinter cell group of 'em decided to try and shoot up a police station, and most of 'em got killed, with the surviving ones becoming FBI informants under the threat of the death penalty (for treason).

How could that radical group's strength prove anything to scare somebody into folding to their requests.

Anti-fascist street fighting is justified in the context of an organized fascist movement that is gaining strength and targeting vulnerable people. This political context doesn't really exist in most of the Western world with the notable exception of Greece and maybe some parts of Eastern Europe.

I would say the action of US antifa, attacking civic nationalist conservatives and apolitical people, is particularly abhorent and counter-productive. I'm also against the idea of de-platforming people and engage in vigilante justice against alt-right figures but tbh I'm not going to get too upset about someone like Richard Spencer being punched.

I would consider myself a radical leftist. I would like to try and implement some version of market socialism (based on state ownership of the natural resources, finance, infrastructure, utilities etc. and coops in the consumer market) as a transitory phase during which technology is developed to effectively introduce planning and automation into the economy. From there I would move towards full Socialism and then Communism.

your point?

I'm telling nothing of the sort. whose posts have you been reading?

i don't have anything about democracy, just bourgeois democracy.

I believe your dodging my question. No offence, but we can get to class warfare in a minute, but all i'm asking is are there any reasources online that back up your claim that there were legitiment threats of violence that caused the US government to cave to the above mentioned groups???

this is how I can tell you're fucking retarded.

There was a significant threat of violence behind the civil rights movement. Regardless the rights being fought for in both your example were fully compatible with the existence of capitalism and the class dominance which underlies capitalist societies.

Women or Blacks getting rights doesn't threaten the power of the elite in the same way expropriating their property does.

That you're not oppressed and in fact should be lucky that you were born into a nation that has such a high standard of living (even better an, assumably, middle class family)

we clearly arn't on the same page here. So to clarify: do you believe that an armed strugle is the only way to get your methods implemented and would you be willing to fight for it.

My belief on that is that many people are too uneducated to truly understand whats in their best interest and need to be lead by legitimate experts in a certain subject (see technocracy)

I'm sorry, democracy? Where do you live? Last I checked in the US the majority of people voted for a candidate who lost. And I am no hillary supporter, but what does that tell you about your democracy?
And this is true of the entire American-European sphere. We live in Representative republics. We vote for people who promise us the world in the hope that they stay true to those promises in office, and they NEVER do.
Look up ancient Athens and direct democracy. As a libertarian leftists this is something I can get behind. All else is a perversion. I'm even cool with a Marxist-Leninist state if it at least remains true to the people through democracy. This cannot even be remotely true of any Western country of today's world.

Care to explain?

Antifascism is liberalism at its worst. It's nothing more than the militant defense of bourgeois democracy.

I consider myself an ultraleft Bordigist.

I agree; from the KKK and the American Nazi Party.

Maybe so, but what about slavery? Having hundreds of people working for you that you don't have to pay a dime for wages sounds like a 1%ers wet dream.

The US has a huge problem with neo-Nazis in our police ranks.
I guess the argument could be made that the specter of American antifa keeps the fascists sufficiently suppressed. Kindda like how if you catch staph infection you can never be cured, your immune system can only keep it at bay.

I'm ambivalent towards them for now, they do seem to intimidate far-right types (even if rightists will never explicitly admit it, but look at the big push to get them labeled as domestic terrorists), so I guess their doing their job.

As to op's bonus question, I'm more to the left than anyone in my immediate social circle, but moderate by the standards of this board.

Because they were the alternative to kings movement.

Also, if you don't think they were a threat, why was the CIA so interested in killing them off or jailing them?

Have you never heard of the Deacons for Defense and Justice, the armed militia during the civil rights movement? Is an armed militia not a threat of violence?

care to expand?
You do realize when every-day people see some guy with a hammer and siccle beating some guys ass in the street, they immediently think the commie is the bad guy; even if the guy getting punched is calling for Auchwitz to reopen it's doors. People in antifa are driving people away from your movement and towards the alt-right because Antifa vilinizes itself so much.

slavery was ended with force or the threat of force, the amercians died by the millions fighting for/against it and the british sunk ships along with their crews.

We’re being raided by Reddit again.

420chan has a thread on this very same topic but with better discourse. Everyone should read it not just OP.
boards.420chan.org/pol/res/395716.php

So? They gained less traction… Maybe i'm just not following your line of reason, but i don't understand where you're going with that…

Not that dude but I think he's referring to this.

theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/

Because they didn't want black's to have rights. Have you read about J. Edgar Hoover? (i know he's FBI, not CIA), but he had VERY negative views on blacks and wanted them suffering at every turn.

Thanks man, new sources are always welcome

Except for the states with slavery that sided with the north, they got to keep slaves for a bit after that because the Emancipation Proclemation only applied to "traitorous states"

Reported for linking to another imageboard.

Nope, i despise the politics of it; even R:TD was full of retards, much more late stage capitalism and 2 x chromosomes

Somebody has a cock up their ass

Well thanks for deciding that for me, LOL.
the fact that i have the possibility to not starve and not freeze to death thanks to the very generous capitalist overlords of ours is not enough for me to feel "lucky". i have to live my whole life or close to it working to make someone else rich to have that very generous opportunity and i don't care much for that. i can have more and i don't see why i shouldn't have it.

that's a lot of assumptions btw. i'm not middle class by any stretch of the expression.

i can't predict the future but here's the thing: the bourgeoisie detains the power and i want them not to have it. they won't let go of it because of obvious reasons, so they need to be forced to let go of it. another fact is that capitalism is destined to crumble whether or not there's an armed insurrection, so there's that. the problem being that we don't know what could possibly happen if we just wait and see.

our sticky links to two other imageboards lmao

Faggot

that's what i said, yes.

well cheers to that if it's true, but i'm skeptical about it.

Many in the civil rights movement were not commited to Kings non-violent stances. Look at the Wikipedia pages of Malcolm X or Stokeley Carmichael. There are also some statements by J. Edgar Hoover (the director of the FBI at the time) which seem to indicate that he viewed these figures as more of a threat than king because of their willingness to use violence.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/apr/04/preventingtheriseofamessi

It's definitely questionable whether the civil rights movement would have been successful without these radical figures. They provided the incentive for the powers that be to deal with King because at least he wasn't threatening to violently overthrow the government.

You mean the slave system which required am extremely bloody war to end.

Fuck off snitch

The point was that fear of revolt made King the more appealing choice to people in power.
Well, yeah, but not every black person was being wiretapped, killed off in their bed while their girlfriend slept next to them, or had to flee to Cuba.
Yeah, I already know that.

None of that sounds like voting though.

I'm not deciding, i'm claiming. Let me ask you a question, would you rather be here in a nice, comfy apartment/home arguing with me, or would you rather be in venezuela, demanding food (i know it's a bit of a low blow to go after a failed socialist state, but the comparison still rings true).

If you don't want to be someone else's pawn, start your own business or climb the ranks to get to the top. If you're smart enough and have enough initiative, you can make it a reality.

Where do you live then (just asking), even if you aren't mid class, you clearly live in a good enough country where even the poor can afford a computer, internet connection, etc.

>revolution
So your saying you'd rather stay out, and from i'm getting from your message; you'd rather just… actually, you don't even say sit back, you seem to want to stop capitalism "before it's too late", but you value your life enough that you wouldn't want to do anything too crazy. (correct me if i'm wrong)

Venezuela is not a socialist country. Watch this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=le86H7Xfjrc

You should at least learn what socialism is before criticizing a "failed socialist state"

um, yeah actually; the senate and house (granted not the american public) voted on both issues, then the president's made big whoops about it to drive up approval ratings

...

That isn't what "good" socialists are advocating for.

Antifa is 90% bullshit but I respect anyone committing transgressions against a stronger force. How far left do I see myself? I dunno, how do you quantify that? Farther left than 95+%, I suppose, at least.
Wow holy shit I just skimmed the rest of this thread and it has devolved into the trashcan of ideology of which all other trashcan will be disposed into

Using public funds to support projects that bring up the lower class (EX: universal healthcare, free university, etc.) Venezuela had universal basic income and promised free medicine and food to all citizens. Granted it isn't communist since it deals with fully capitalist powers (oil money) to get the money that it needs for those programs but it's definitely socialist. In fact, depending on how liberally you use the term, you could argue the US is socialist as it has welfare, state healthcare, and even free primary education (and many economic libertarians argue already).

We are protesting Richard Spencer tomorrow in Montreal.

Then what are these "good socialists" arguing for?

if socialism isn't the abolition of private property then it's not worth fighting for.

Socialism is communism.

See what i mean?
The people who felt that they had it bad and didn't want to have it bad did something to not have it bad anymore. Picketing a government office is no jacobin revolution, but it's still a far cry from anything "peaceful". These people were struggling, not putting papers in a suggestion box, and they knew they had leverage. The senate and house voted in their favor so they would stop. They were forced to do it, not asked to.

Your missing the point, see this

it's time to stop being ignorant about what socialism is, friendo

You actually have no idea what you're talking about. Socialism is communism YET it's achieved through democratic methods; read some Marx and you'll see he explicity says the only way socialism can be obtained is through violently overthrowing the rich

If my understanding is wrong, then teach me what is true socialism. Mearly saying i'm ignorant doesn't convince me that you're right

What are you making up here? Marx uses the terms socialism and communism interchangeably. He didn't change terms depending on how "democratically" things were done. You should practice what you preach and read Marx.

see 3rd pic in the post you quoted

Also, just a quick PSA to all, i'm gonna go get something to eat, so don't expect me to reply for ~5 min, i'll try to get back ASAP

...

If you ask me, revolution where the state is seized and work places are given to the workers. There are other policies that would come into being, but I can't claim to predict the future and how that will necessitate policy.
But to get off that tangent, you can't make unequal things equal, Marx or Engels spoke of this I believe. One worker will be different from the next, and to call them equals would make them unequal. It is inevitable that there will be differences in lifestyles after a revolution, and that will only be changed through time or, to be fancier, "the real movement which abolishes the current state of things". A good socialist would realize this and not attempt some retarded "equalization" of wealth. Obviously the 1% as we know them would be obliterated. Thank you for asking what I believe, it is nice to stretch my brain connecting different, unexpressed ideas. It isn't exactly easy to talk about Communism in the day to day.

My bad on that one, he did call for the lack of a state, you're right.

Indeed I was. Here's another source covering the same story.
alternet.org/civil-liberties/kkk-has-infiltrated-us-police-departments-decades

I would rather be somewhere I don't need to work my entire life to gain the right to not starve. I don't recognize venezuela as socialist, at best it's an authoritarian social democracy.

sounds like a lot of work i don't wanna be doing.
Capitalism is grossly inefficient and arbitrary. We literally have the means to make everyone live by working like 8 hours a week, why do I have to renounce that? I'd rather try to change things.

What if I'm a dummy, though?

np fam, i was just saying that you're really assuming a lot of things is all. I'm from italy, literally all my family is working class or unemployed, including yours truly.

it's not that i don't want to do anything crazy (leftism is pretty fucking crazy), I'm just wary of the risks. I know that some opportunist faction can just transform a genuine, emancipatory movement in a coup that will produce some horrible dictatorship, I don't want that to happen. I'm not very hopeful for the future. Communism can only work if there's a worldwide revolution, and a nationwide one is difficult enough as it is. Something definetely needs to be done though, it's just that nobody really knows what the fuck it is.

iirc she was with IWW

1. Social control has nothing to do with the economy
2. if we lived in the neolithic era, if you didn't work, you and quite posibly your whole humble tribe would die. The same applies to the modern era, you don't want to work, then you're whole family (may) die of starvation; assuming you forget to collect your food stamps that the US government gives it's citizens that make less than $30,000 a year.
3. Just reading that next paragraph tells me everything i need to know about you. You have no interest in self-improvement and want life handed to you on a silver plater. You will remain poor for the rest of your life if you keep that mindset. Start working out, it'll give you some energy; start thinking about what you're not good at in life and improve that (whether it's calculous or even your understanding of different philosophies that you could read about in 20 minutes with wikipedia).
4. inteligence is only a boost; i know some fucking stupid indians at my uni who do extreamly well because they don't want to disgrace their family. Being dumb just means you need to work even harder to prove yourself. In a situation like that, show every possible employer your GPA and Autism Level. Tell them that despite being X below the average you are in the X percentile of students.

Last but not least:

So your contradicting yourself. It's fine to be wrong just admit it; it shows that your growing as a human. If you want some radical socialist utopia through democratic means just say that.

Please do everyone a favour and do some basic reading to familiarize yourself with what socialism is before posting on this board.

Try this its a quick and easy read.
→ s3.jacobinmag.com/issues/jacobin-abcs.pdf

(USER WAS BANNED FOR BEING A BRAINLET)

But no seriously, i'm skimming through it and all i'm seeing is the history of socialism in america, are there any specific sections that would help?

Yes it does. If I'm starving and someone tells me he's gonna give me bread to drive screws 8 hours a day I'm much more likely to say yes than if i'm well fed. That's literally controlling me.

But we don't. Also if we lived in the neolithic era I wouldn't have to work my ass off to make someone else rich, that's the problem.

Yes, and that's why i'm literally willing to die to change things, lol.

True: the real kicker is the money.

k

It's not actually 148 pages long the text is super large. I'd recommend reading the whole thing because it addresses a lot of the common questions for a newby about socialism. The section from page 12-22 addresses your mistaken conception of socialism as being the goverment doing things so maybe start there.

Also mods pls no ban, this guy is engaging in good faith and genuinely wants to learn.

Fair enough when i have the time i'll give it a read.

Also, thanks for putting in a goods word, it shows you have better character then some mods when you say that.

oh ffs just kick the banhappy mod.

1. What you're talking about is accepting an economic oportunity; if you were smart you would've said "but what in the situation where some guy says, 'i would pay you to build homes, but we don't hire blacks'." Now THAT would be a combination of social and economic (disproving my argument), but sadly you never noticed that.

2. Your right, you would have to work your ass of just to SURVIVE. Forget arguing with me over the computer, in that era you would have to be constantly hunting and wouldn't have the time to enjoy any luxuries.
3. So you want to become a martyer an hero just for some cause that would get squashed by the US military in a week.

I assume by the 'k', that means you've given up and left, but if you are still around i truely hope you take this advice.

Do you guys have ways to remove mods from power? Or are you talking about me???

Pushing it a bit with that but I agree he shouldn't be banned.

With this for example, I don't particularly want to change this guy's mind. He is just very self assured.

No problem I hope you enjoy the read. Engaging with leftist theory can be an incredibly rewarding experience. When you start to recognize how class dynamics and capital accumulation are the driving forces in our society you see through the media spectacle and recognize the true dynamics that drive the world.

Also you'll realize quickly that Holla Forums has some serious moderation problems;

i b& him for 1 minute calm tf down

So we got some mods in here, huh?

Idk he was at least willing to recognize that he might be mistaken about venezuela being socialist. But yeah I feel you I hate when people arguing in that ultra personal moralistic way.

look, we have this thread every week, i'm out of will to engage in the same endless and fruitless debate for the millionth time, someone else'll pick up.

eh i'm just on edge because of the recent drama, sorry.

Yeah, just read the part of "strategic implications of calling gov activity socialism"; to be perfectly honest i'm surprised this has as much objectivity as it does, i'll credit it that.

Again, sorry, i'm just new here.

Yeah, I wish I could articulate just how little it matters that Socialism is super bad to him. I'm here to entertain myself, and if you keep on talking shit I will lose interest in arguing with you. We genuinely have these same threads repeatedly, and not to dehumanise user but it is boring talking to what is more or less the same outraged guy.

But then he says stuff like this that drags my interest back. Give credit where credit is due, I suppose.

not your fault

Ya know, if this is such a problem, why don't you guys just put up a sticky on these things like 4chans pol does with logical falicies; i'd help stop most of these threads

But seriously I don't like the idea of having arguments as stickies. As often as we get these criticisms, they are fairly nuanced (sic) and do require a softer touch. As much as I would like to mass produce good arguments, it just isn't feasible. Consider when you mentioned the "failed socialist state of Venezuela", the correct response, in my opinion is that they weren't socialist. Some may disagree with this, and just a year or two ago it wouldn't have occurred to mention Venezuela at all. The stickies would have to be continually updated to fit new arguments, and then you would have arguments that are half debunked by the sticky, and the subpar moderation force we have right now couldn't even begin to tackle something as grey as that would be.
also as much as we/I complain but these threads they are my favorite and without them I wouldn't be a socilaist

I agree that these arguments are extremely fun; but i do see your point about the stickys. Maybe just something about some resources on where to start with socialism and some pit-falls not to fall for.

It really sounds like you subscribe to the idea that ideology can be likened to a thermometer scale.

Worth noting: it's probably not even accurate to call the so-called "antifa" that the news talks about a real "antifa" on the basis that most of the time they show regular protestors, not people practicing antifa tactics.

If so, what are these 'antifa tactics'; because from what i understand both antifa and "normal protesters" use the Black Bloc.

Yeah. Maybe i'm wrong, but there are economic ideas out there that call for state control of the whole means of production, some that call for no means of production, and finally some nuanced once's that fall inbetween.

*no control of the means of production

ftfy

Kek

...

The problem I see with your viewpoint and a lot of peoples viewpoint on this issue is you imagine an ideal "middle ground" view point that doesn't really work in reality.

In Greece they aren't just attacking fascists they're defending people's homes from Golden Dawn looters and corrupt police officials in some areas they're the only recourse against reactionary violence. There are parts of the country that resemble medieval circumstances but with a modern backdrop. There isn't some neutral stance you can take in these situations and not be violent, you either defend and fight in opposition to the enemy or you watch your country get subsumed by them.

In America police target minorities and people they perceive to be weak. There are countless lawmakers that are secret KKK members and worse. Fascists might coat themselves in irony and memery, but they're starting to put their big boy pants on and come out into the light. Saying nice words and asking them to stop isn't going to change their minds about das juden trying to reenact a great replacement and no matter what they say their beliefs will eventually result in violence. I also know that people thinking "they just want to engage in the marketplace of ideas" don't really believe this and I know they don't believe this because they would never give a free platform with the obvious opposition. If I listed a bunch of things I believe in that basically exposed my rad left beliefs and then said "Oh but I totally don't want the rich to be guillotined at the end of the day." I doubt droning millenial or Sargon would take a knee to defend my right to speak in the marketplace of ideas.

I think you're paranoid that any significant percentage of cops are racist and/or percentage of congressmen are skinheads. Regardless, I have no issue with you speaking your mind on this site, and i'd hope you would feel the same towards me. You need to see the opposition as human, by not giving them your moral consideration, your opening pandora's box to taking away their rights and oppressing them; then when the pendulum swings the other way, they will remember what you did to them and enact their revenge.

There were armed groups such as the Black Panthers and Deacons for Defence involved, and people outright advocating violence like Malcom X. The fact that the BPP and Deacons never performed an insurrection does not mean that they did not happen, M.O.V.E, a pretty dumb organization of primitivists, outright uprose against the government and had the building they took over napalmed, which burnt down an entire street.

It is not so much that there was outright civil war or constant terrorism, but rather that there was the threat of it. Friendly reminder that the modern IRA started out as a militia that defended Irish citizens against incursions and sectarian violence from pro-British individuals and the British army, but gradually turned into an outright guerrilla organization which caused multiple hundreds of millions of dollars in damages and killed many hundreds. That was the threat that the US was trying to avoid, an armed insurrection. There's a documentary about the Deacons that provides quotes that suggest massive government fear about civil rights insurrections and what they may lead to, but I can't remember the name, so take it with a grain of salt.

Even if they aren't those labels explicitly cops are usually reactionary lumpens. youtube.com/watch?v=7lw1MrMHQ9o

I also would say in certain parts of the country the south, chicago, new york etc, that cops are racist by design and implementation and used in that way even if they don't believe they're in their own intentions. Stop and frisk is pretty close to an explicit fascist law as can be reasonably passed off as sensible in the current temp of frog soup we have going on now.

The ending statement isn't much of a threat or a concern when the US has a history of being explicitly anti communist and has used violence to achieve it's ends in this regard. The government and their capitalist overlords don't want these ideas in "the marketplace" they're willing to tolerate them to an extent but they will resort to violence the minute they think anything threatens their cash flow. We barely entered an age where socialism is an acceptable term here again and we're already being Russia bated hard.

im sorry, what is this one?

Reactionary sure but how are they lumpen?

Mostly a bunch of smashie, idpol-elitist shits indistinguishable from what they're punching, though it's good that cancer is at war with cancer.

Sometimes, however, you get something a little more legitimate. Rarely, but there's a little.

Oh…

spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-sexual-revolution-and-children-how-the-left-took-things-too-far-a-702679.html

…slightly to the left of this, I'd say. Totes needs more weed and guerilla gardening, because syndicaliism, while an awesome insurrectionary tactic, is waaay too much structure and economic coercion upon the common folk.

Is that why you broke up the popular front and failed to have a revolution? You're the fucking liberal, because your opinions are inconsequential and always have been, they will never form a part of the real movement.

Antifa is good and necessary and you really don't find IRL communist activists who are against it, unless you are talking of trots. But that's what leftypol is, talk big about revolution online, don't lift a finger to agitate yourself, shit on other people that do because you believe ever piece of imperial propoganda fed to you.

I have experience with antifa and it does in fact work, I have personally been involved in the shutting down and stopping of two different blooming alt right groups, infiltrating and disrupting their meetings as well as organising physical presences in public spaces to counter them. I suggest you get off your armchair high horse and actually go look at the things you talk about before sneering

keyword

I'm not really. I don't want any middle ground with literal fascists, they can change their mind or fuck off. I'm only talking about effectiveness. Does antifa reduce the number of fascists around? If so, cheers. If not, their methods don't work and they need to change them. I don't think punching random retards or "denying platform" does shit. That's all there is to my reasoning, really.

That's good and I commend their effort. I wish there were more groups like that around the world. Unfortunately there aren't.

I read the rest of your post and I get the feeling that you're conflating me with some sort of cliche centrist dave rubin type. I'm not gonna lose sleep if a few hundreds fascists die, I'm merely concerned about the effectiveness of the strategy.

that's why i said if you're american you should be concerned about cops more than any random richard spencer, whether the cops goes around with a white sheet on his head or not.

sounds like it's time you stopped agitating yourself and calmed down tbh

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Oh you don't think do you, I supposed you have anything at all to back that up with? Nope. You don't. It is literally only armchair communists from the internet and Trots who say shit like "we will beat fascism with dance and music" i.e. UAF in the UK who are against AFA. A large part of the reason fascist marches are a joke and tiny in the UK is because trade unionists and socialist/anarchist party members in the 70's and 80's spent decades beating the shit out of them, disrupting their street stalls, blocking their meetings, and threatening their leadership.

What "anti, antifa "communists" " really fucking fail to understand is that you don't get revolutionary militancy from nowhere. You honestly think reading a lot of theory produces the kind of people ready to seize means of production? No, these are not the people who have historically ever done the seizing, the people who do the seizing are the tough characters on the streets and barricades, who met and formed circles of trust and solidarity in the build up to the revolution, which in EVERY CASE involved some level of street violence and disruption of reactionary forces. This happens on a low level, people meet, share ideas, radicalise one another, then it builds.

It is hilarious to me that people talk about "spontaneous revolution" or a vanguard party of even a revolution at all when they are against fledgling militant action. Like what you retards expect a serious militant leftist movement to just appear one day from nothing? No, people need to meet, exchange ideas, build and grow.

"it doesn't instantly bring full communism so its useless" is just the worst, most ridiculous mentality that comes the internet, its like you have never even interacted with the working class even at all. Its called class struggle, its a struggle, you work with the dregs and build on them, organise them, repair them, try and make them better, you don't just sit in some ivory torture chamber and "critique". For one thing, if you aren't leading by example, why the fuck should anybody follow you?

Are you building a revolutionary party which does something more than antifa do? No. Are you organising the left in any way or benefiting working people in any tangible way? No. So give me one good reason why any leftist at all should actually listen to your opinion? Its total bullshit,

I'm taking this opportunity to call ever single one of you keyboard warrior psuedo intellectual stuck up pieces of shit out. You DONT. DO.ANYTHING. for the left, you are less than useless, because you are a demoralising force. Your views are exactly the same as that of reactionaries and the liberal media, and its because at heart, you are a red liberal, and you don't understand that to be a communist is to declare war against all the capitalist world. If you are a too much of a pussy to get out and fight that war, then you aren't a communist, you're just a fucking whiner.

I have completely lost patience with you, you have the same mentality as fucking Winston Churchill. "appease the fascists". No, you crush them, and you crush them completely.

"but its not fighting capitalism at its route so it won't fix the problem" okay.. fine, but neither are you, neither are any of you. There are a few posters on this board who are involved in IRL agitation, organisation and education, but most of you, mostly the anti-antifa type, don't do shit, at all. If you were part of a genuinely revolutionary collective with major working class support and you were telling me that my anti fascist activities were detrimental to what you were trying to do I would listen.

But you're not, you're just a hipster who read half of volume 1 of capital, watched a bunch of youtube videos and decided that makes you the next Hegel and that your oh-so-intellectual positions are objectively correct. You have no decided to actually do anything about these beliefs you hold so strongly, which leads me to believe that actually for you its just about being right on the internet, probably because you are a comfortable middle class brat who has never had to lift a finger in their life, so class struggle is something totally abstract to you. You have never felt threatened by downward wage pressure or the growth of violent racist groups in your community

You people are a fucking joke and a worse cancer than the SJW. I would rather have 1 antifa SJW on my side than 25 of you, because at least the SJW would show up, rather than sitting at home gaming and sneering about the planned action, which you would all do

If you have to use a strawman keep it

if you have nothing to say at all, not even pointing to where I have stawmanned, keep it in your head, you fucking useless piece of shit. Get out on the streets or shut the fuck up

I stopped reading around the second line, find your own strawman, it's not hard.

no wonder you aren't out agitating

oh I'm agitated alright

I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply wasting your time. Successfully, I might add.

And it feels really good

Attacking random normie civic nationalists and blocking university speakers does nothing to help the left and is actively counterproductive. This is 90% of what antifa does in the USA.

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Wrong, it normalises violence against these people, the more "moderate" they are, the better, further, it threatens them, how many aut rightard bitches do you think have stayed home because they are worried about being hit by muh ebil antifasupersoldiers? Considering the state of the ones that do make it out, i'd say probably a good few. Considering most of them are lazy like you people round here, its probably another good excuse not to go, for them.

On top of that, we want a polarised society, we want the liberal state to be unstable and under stress, having to deal with mass unrest and to be forced to be heavy handed, so this function of the state, suppressing protest, is highlighted, we want to force the media to takes sides, when that is the reactionary side, that is a good thing, because it makes people trust the media less, when its on our side, that is a good thing, because that means more people are sympathetic, so what if some Fox news presenter says some mean things about us. Are you saying before this they were talking about communism in a good light? No. The same people who have always been bashing the left are still bashing the left. On top of that, as I have already stated, anti facism is an extremely accessible way to become exposed to more radical ideas, notice how organisations such as the IWW have spiked in membership since the beginning of this back and forward between fash and anti fash? I'd wager other communist groups have probably seen a spike in membership to.

Its only so long before someone in your antifacist group tells you to read Marx or Bakunin or Bookchin, a person can only hear so many jokes about US imperialism before they go google the iran contra affair online. Considering the state of the left ANY type of activity which brings leftists together, particularly in a militant capacity, should be fully supported

and like I also said, if there is a truly revolutionary party in your area, and you would rather spend time helping them out, then by all means do that and you will be doing more than most people. But im guessing there isn't, so getting involved with the local antifa and meeting leftists of a "militant" bent in the hope you can make something better out of it is probably the best chance you or any of the rest of us have got. You could joing a Marxist Leninist-Fourth-international-hoxaist-anti revisionist party and have old guys tell you to march around with signs, you can go squat with some ancoms, you can read theory and jerk yourself off with leftcoms, or you can go meet antifa, usually young people enthusiastic to make a difference and not weighed down by old clunky ideologies, i.e. ripe ground for new praxis to emerge if you try

Can you read?

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Maybe I was doing this a little bit, but to differentiate that from another point I was trying to make I'll elaborate on why I disliked your first post a bit.

I think it's very easy to be in a non-violent situation and then to judge other people who are in a violent situation and claim they aren't as "moral" as you because you would stand up for the oppositions right to have their voice heard or whatever. It's easy to say all these Greek's should get together and sing kumbayah and exchange ideas on how the country should move forward, but when your economy is in the toilet and literal fascist hordes are raiding cities, being against people who are trying to beat back the opposition because "violence is always bad meme" is a bit of a privileged statement.

I think this also applies in other situations of common debate throughout the web. It's very easy to be Smug Sam Harris and believe every bit of the problem with Islam is the religion when his village isn't getting drone striked every couple of months or being raided by roving bands of militias because the infrastructure of your country is in the toilet. It's easy to have a free exchange of ideas and come about things in a peaceful manner when most of these other things are prefigured into a society, but it's very easy to say you'd be on your best behavior when society has already made things easy for you. Most of the world doesn't have that privilege.

I also just think it's needlessly condescending. Everyone likes to believe they would be Oskar Schindler in a Third Reich situation, but the reality is the majority of people would be apathetic do-nothings like they usually are in every situation. I can especially say this in the current time because I see more people constantly trying to excuse evil and corruption than I do actually trying to fight it.

look m8, you were doing that a lot and you're still doing it. I'm pretty sure all my posts itt are in english. Where the fuck did i even talk about morals?

No thank you
Yes plese

Any antifascist is on my side.

Greek antifa is really cool - not because they attack capitalism at the root or whatever, but they engage in better organized stuff and more serious stuff than Americans. Anarchists in Greece also provide genuine services and appear much better organized.

American antifa, almost the only antifa I ever talk about, is a nuisance that occasionally does cool things. I don't really oppose them, but their overall history is full of dumb bullshit and if it weren't for the increased presence of fascists and related dogwhistling, then I'd have little to like about them today. Because of how shit things are, they now are able to demonstrate how shitty and ineffectual liberal centrism is and how there are options besides voting in neoliberal shits.

US antifa are fucking retards attacking straw men who give the right wing ammunition to feed their victim complex. I'm an eco-socialist.