A libertarian arguing why wage labour is never exploitative
A marxist arguing why wage labour is always exploitative
How can deadlocks like this be overcome?
A libertarian arguing why wage labour is never exploitative
Landon Perry
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Jose Ross
I agree that this is the key issue that separates socialists and libertarians. I usually to press on the "voluntary" part. For one, just because it's voluntary doesn't necessarily mean it's ok: The Universal Declaration on Human Rights says “no one should be held in slavery or servitude, slavery in all of its forms should be eliminated.” - it doesn't say it's ok if it's voluntary. Secondly and this is the main one: is it even "voluntary"? In capitalist society saying wage work is voluntary is like telling someone to punch themselves in the face or you'll shoot them and then saying they punched themselves voluntarily.
Wyatt Barnes
All value is produced by human labour. Nothing else. For example gold aquires value only once a miner has invested labour to extract it. Machines and technology do not create value, they are simply a multiplier, they allow a worker to produce more value for the same amount of labour.
The employer claims to have the right of ownership over part of the worker's labour because he owns the means with which such labourer created value, the implication is that it was his possessions to create said value through the worker and not the opposite. Of course it is not the case for what we said before, the worker is being robbed of his labour.
good enough?
Mason Morgan
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Jack Taylor
This is an easy one. The capitalist mode of production is not voluntary. I didn't agree to live under it, and as a consequence of having been born under it one must also work under it or starve to death. And if one is forced to work for an employer or starve then it is in no way unforced.
Tyler Hall
Libertardians are of the belief that it's no longer slavery if you voluntarily give consent
Dylan James
Actually fuck all of these. Moral critiques of capitalism are weak and too slippery. We should be more scientific and selfish about it.
1. It doesn't matter if capitalism is moral or not; it's an unstable system that's going to collapse
2. I don't give a fuck about your rights or morals, I personally want a shorter working week and more money
Wyatt Adams
It's not a deadlock, the """"libertarian"""" is a dishonest idiot who believes employer and employee contracts can only be voluntary. Ignoring the fact that his private property pushed people off from subsistence farming and into wage slavery.
Evan Williams
By saying this you reveal quite clearly that you don't know what moral actually means. Exploitation is not a moral judgement.
And even if it was not the case it is necessary to dismantle the moral armour of capitalism if you want to bring more people out of the spectacle.
James Ramirez
Socialism vs capitalism wasn't ever about morals, it was about inefficiencies, contradictions, and exploitation