Muh idpol

It's not that idpol doesn't exist but rather those who want to discuss it and give it credence are at best just looking for feel good band-aid solutions and at worst perpetuating the problem which they supposedly want to solve.

Put it like this: Let's say your a government and you're cracking down on drugs. Do you go after the dealer or the user? The dealer, because going after millions of users isn't solving anything. You just spend a shit ton of money putting people in jail and still have a drug flow. Idpol and those who wish to participate is the same. You can't beat white supremacy by lifting up other "races", you need to abolish the idea of race all together. You can't stop sexism by putting women in a few token positions of power and patting yourself on the back. Neoliberals have tried that for decades, and it just makes things worse, it legitimizes the opposite positions by continuing to play their games.

Tbf I don't really give a shit. Leftypol is the only board where you can speak your mind as a leftist however you want. Idpol and its cancerous ideology of suppressing opinions because they are given by dominant groups fucks up boards. If you want idpol go to r/socialism. This board isn't perfect, ofc, but it's unique and I'd like to keep it that way, ty. The moment idpol comes in, so does pc culture and censorship afaik (don't care if that statement sounds like a conservative meem)

Idk why but a lot of people here seem to hate idpol. It certainly rustles my jimmies every now and then but I try to simply take a healthy agnosticism toward it

Well put comrade

Yes idpol is indeed a boogeyman…because if you we start to dwelve more into this subject we start to see the the biggest theorists of idpol, the biggest proponents from idpol all come from USA.
Gay pride parades were invented in USA, modern feminism was invented in USA, the 50 genders were all invented in USA.
Do you see a standard here? Of course it's musch easier to blame muh idpol, but the problema time and time again is always one: USA and it's habitants.

That's what I meant by "vulgar materialism".

Thus the US must be wiped off the face of the earth!

This isn't what I was talking about and you know it. I don't care about bathrooms or safe spaces. But if we don't address issues like the sociology of European Muslims or how sexuality and gender can affect socioeconomic status, then we'll never be able to properly understand the complex social reality as it is.
Why the fuck would you even make this assumption? What with most of Holla Forums's obsession of turning people they ever so slightly disagree with into caricatures? It's as if you weren't capable of offering a coherent argument and would rather just assume ill intent every time your worldview is questioned. Just like Holla Forumstards seeing JIDF shills everywhere when they get BTFO'd.

Republicans and Democrats aren't left you retard

youtube.com/watch?v=861f18VN6zI

...

Then you idpol loving arse can't beat a literal meme argument. Anyway if you get full Communism you get literal utopia to where your idpol crap dosn't even need to exist anymore

I've never made such a claim. What in my opening post makes you believe I have any kind of patience for inane liberal social-reformism? Thinking we should be able to discuss race and class without being instantly met with autistic screeching doesn't mean you believe black CEOs are the solution to the problems we're faced with.

What the fuck kinda answer is that? Are you 12?

Neck yourself faggot

you can discuss whatever identity shit you like and be indulged from here to eternity on literally every other leftist space on the internet or in real life. There is no need for this board to be everything to everyone at all times. I go to other places when I feel like talking about that shit and if that's what you want then you and everybody else would be better served by you doing the same.

I come here when I'm tired of it, tired of listening to pampered white women complain about "emotional labour", tired of watching a bunch of grown ass adults gush like children meeting a celebrity when a random black person shows up and says something vaguely leftish, tired of progressive stacking and shit, tired of being fucking pandered to and treated like at best, a child and at worst, property by people who claim to have my interests at heart but act like I owe them something because of my own minority status. And if somewhat juvenile and dismissive "board culture" and some reactionary background noise are what's needed to keep this as a place I can come to to be away for that for a while, then that's fine with me. it's a fucking image board to shitpost on, not a political party and it doesn't need perfect political line that I would support in some hypothetical revolution.

Both of you lads have legitimate concerns but there needs to be a middle ground as to not turn this board into an echo chamber.

From my experience, anons here have been capable of tackling these issues without too much fuss more often than not, if the discussion is effectively rooted in a socialist framework.
Of course, there will always be people that tell you to "fuck off with your idpol" and sage, but that has always been like that on imageboards. You can't expect a constant high quality of discussion with this format, and you should know this if you have been there for two years.

Now, as I previously said, people here are also tired of the lack of attention to class struggle and the economic mechanisms of capitalism which plagues the contemporary left, and want to preserve this space from a red liberal invasion which would shift the discussion from "vulgar materialism" to vulgar social justice and impotent virtue-signaling.
The credo of anarchists is "No gods no master", not "Muslims are cool, Christians are not". Yet everyone out there seem to have forgotten that. Of course, there are things to say about European Muslims, but their situation can be explain without taking religion into account, and focusing instead on post-colonial policies, the ghettoization of immigrants from North Africa and Turkey during the 60s-70s, the disappearance of manual labour in Europe and their lack of cultural capital and opportunities to have a better place in the job market, and so on. Saying that they are oppressed only because they are Muslims is truly vulgar, and yet the left nowadays seems unable to see the forest behind the trees. And we don't want this shit here.

how delusional

Porky creates and promotes new "victim classes" as a system-safe outlet, and to replace class struggle with meaningless crap backed by consumerism.

(Me)
PS : I will also reiterate what I said earlier, namely that I'm deeply suspicious of the "but we can focus both on class and idpol" line of defense, because that's not what happen at all in practice (IME).

I wonder who could be behind this post…

I wish you were right, because that's precisely what my beef is. I completely understand and support rejecting liberal, class-collaborationist identity politics from the get-go. But just go and try: make a thread defending socialist feminism, and see what happens. Not that I think those who describe themselves as socialist feminists should be immune from criticism, of course not — but that's not what happens in these threads. What happens is an hysterical bout of name-calling and whining about Reddit making discussion all but impossible. To too many people here, simply debating issues that do not fit their narrow understanding of what is "actually relevant" is "idpol".

Obviously. That's why I mentioned the sociology of Muslims and not their "victim status" or whatever. But every time I've tried to discuss that sort of things on Holla Forums, I've been met with the "anti-idpol" crowd derailing the thread, flinging shit all over the place, telling me I'm dividing the working class or that muzzies are reactionaries.

i don't care man. it's an anonymous image board, not a party, not an activist group and not an identity. i don't care if it's an echo chamber or sekrit club for edgy kids, i don't come here to develop my politics beyond getting some reading recommendations. i come here to shoot the shit about a topic i'm interested in with other anonymous autists without the smothering gatekeeping and language policing and without the petty powerplays and jockeying for social status that seem to come naturally to left-wing places where identity is the focus.

again, when i'm in the mood for that shit i can and do go to one of the many, many other places that are set up to cater to it or even attend an irl meeting.

So am I. I don't think we should "focus both on class and idpol" — class is the central sociological category of any socialist theory. I just wish it was possible to discuss the relation between class and other factors without being accused of being a COINTELPRO-funded, Reddit-sponsored infiltrator and the discussion devolving into simian meme-flinging in the style of or .

Hello not cia guy not inyecting bullshit in those nasty anti 1%
What a shame that brainwash doesn't work that well anymore.

This line of thinking is the reason why basically every semi-successful left movement turns into capitalist-enabled identity wars.

The frankfurt school created this, and developed idpol as a REPLACEMENT to class struggle, and developed 'social struggle' usurp it. Certain groups and identities are deemed as 'oppressor classes' and other identities are made into the new 'oppressed classes' (regardless of their respective economic classes).

Literally Holla Forums-tier nonsense. Just fuck off.

good news. it is possible. go on twitter. go to reddit. go to revleft. go to leftbook. go to any of the dozens, probably hundreds, of online places that are not Holla Forums where leftists discuss politics in the particular way you prefer. go to an actual real life meeting of your local IWW branch or communist party or anarchist collective.

why come to Holla Forums for something where you would be better served literally anywhere but Holla Forums

It’s simple, if you don’t oppose the abolition of all social distinctions (class, race, gender, etc) to the point where only the individual remains, then you are an idpoller.

Do you suppose all these social distinctions will just magically vanish if we wish hard enough for their abolition? If you want them to disappear, you need to study and address what allows them to emerge in the first place. Otherwise, it's just impotent "communism will solve everything some day" autism.

This.
Read Fratz Fanon

tbh I like leftypol as it is and i'm not even white. Every single other online leftist space is dominated by upper middle class people whose whole brand amounts to ' hey i'm one of the Good Whites(tm)' I'm a DECENT and EMPATHETIC person who is really attuned to the plight of the marginalised and whatnot. At least leftypol provides a place in which we can address problems from a different angle, i'm not saying it isn't full of ex-Holla Forumslacks and such things, but at least it serves the function of a liminal space which helps move the dialectic forward. Muh idpol has become incorporated into the dominant mechanisms of management and commodity marketing. In a world without memory, identitarian authenticity becomes just another on demand escape hatch. In other places you get people who are a dominate the discourse because of how much they signal their RESPECT the authentic and legitimate struggles of such and such. I'm not a nostalgic workerist either, i believe the left isn't prepared to deal with our current post industrial post fordist landscape, in which the worker's movement is crippled and obsolete and 'identity' has become just another tool of management.

alright smarty memer I guess that's a little to abrasive for you r/socialism types

Careful with that edge, retard.

If anything, the idpolers are as afflicted by nostalgia as the die hard workerists. It feels like an endless replay of the 60s civil rights movement, now with corporate sponsors. Instead of concrete goals, we are stuck in an endless process of consciousness raising, theatrical stunts meant to get middle american Trump supporters to finally show some Empathy(tm) and 'acknowledge white supremacy' or something. ie. muh NFL kneeling drama. The discourse of the culture wars is centered around a few popculture commodities, and it's growing tiring. We live in a strange world. I've grown to like outre continental theory ie. Debord, Deleuze, Land, precisely because it represents an escape from the self, that absolute sovereign of American society. That's what really triggers me about identity politics, that obsession with personal virtue, rigid identities, 'self esteem' etc. that and i find white american leftists insufferable.

Go back to your own cancerous board, n1x.

What about the connection between ebonics and class?

OP is correct and right. Vulgar Marxists need to read a book. There is no right side of this idpol - anti-idpol conflict.

How about the idea that the economic can't really be separated from other spheres- culture and politics, for example? This would be found in classical Marxism in the term "relations of production." This encompasses the aspects of production which don't need to be that way but have evolved that way due to custom.

For example, Marx says that industrial economy is monopolistic because of the monopoly agriculture economy that industry evolved out of. This means that the subject of "class" can't really be contained to "pure" economy, whatever that would mean. Would someone who's rabidly anti-idpol say what they mean by class?

I think the more expansive problem is people using unfair arguments, and wanting to "win" the argument more than they want to do what it takes to build world communism. We have to address what divides the working class, which means addressing stuff like white supremacy and male chauvinism as well as the reactionary approach to combating these inequalities. We need to find out what it takes to be fair to one another, and I think that broad dismissals fall into the "smug acceptance of what exists" (debord), namely people's smug attitudes about their own theory.

Plus, it's obvious that those who seek to divide us can use these topics to do so endlessly. Forget idpol, the only way to overcome the real final boss- intelligence agencies- is to come up with broad consensus. That means we need to address each other's concerns.