DPRK Apologists BTFO

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Jang-yop

>Hwang Jang-yop (Korean: 황장엽; 17 February 1923 – 10 October 2010) was a North Korean politician who defected to South Korea in 1997, best known for being, to date, the highest-ranking North Korean defector. He was largely responsible for crafting Juche, North Korea's official state ideology.

>After his arrival in South Korea, he became a harsh critic of North Korea, publishing over 12 books and treatises, many of which accused Kim Jong-il of "betraying Juche and building feudalism instead of socialism", and used his position as chairman of the Unification Policy Research Institute to spread his message.

I want you fucks to fuck off back to reddit or wherever shithole you came from. You people are not socialists, you are not leftists, you are red fascists, you are anti-worker, and your interests are totally misaligned with those who are fighting the oppression of the people.

Other urls found in this thread:

country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-9558.html
newfocusintl.com/exclusive-private-ownership-land-now-legal-north-korea/
upi.com/North-Korea-moving-flood-victims-into-new-homes/2691479344309
telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/action-demanded-south-korea-excessive-overtime-culture-following/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Kim Jong-il BTFO. Bet he never posts again after this thread.

If he can't be loyal to X why is he supposed to be loyal to Y?

Maybe because that x betrated the cause?

This is different from other defectors like Yuri "I worked in India but I know about Soviet plans about the West" Bezmenov, who completely talked of the Soviets for being Soviets.

If he's a defector, he isn't loyal to anyone but himself. Also, he's the man behind Juche.

Nothing to see here, just another capitalist roader outed for the rat he is.

Meanwhile North Korea is growing and still developing socialism compared to the rest of you fucks who will contribute absolutely nothing for the rest of your lives.

fuck off american globalist cocksucker.

my news source tells otherwise

Citation needed, then kill yourself.

I've been here since 2015, whereas you're probably some Holla Forumsreddit newfag. But whatever.
Are you so braindead that you can't recognize the logical fallacy in assuming that I'm a supporter of US foreign policy simply because I'm a critic of NK domestic policy?

Tell me what the fuck North Korea has to do with socialism.

These folks just can not concieve in their minds that there's a nation out there who doesn't have McDonald's on every corner and the radios aren't playing the latest Beyonce single.
They need muh Freedom!!!!

In North Korea you have:

- no right to strike
- to work for a pittance
- no time off
- absolutely no freedom to criticize the regime

And that's not even going into the labor/extermination camps they have there.

You are nothing more than a shill for those opportunistic sadists (Kim Il Sung and his bastard spawn) who hijack a revolution to get to the throne of state power so that they can live a long life of luxury off of the slavery of the people. You are worse than the capitalists.

Let's say you're telling the truth. Just because your subjective experience wasn't so bad, doesn't mean that there are many people who suffer horribly in labor camps and elsewhere in the country. I am willing to admit that some people certainly must live fairly well in NK, despite all of the terror and brutalization everywhere else.

Do you have a source for this?

Kim jong il is dead though

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Why so? They're all contributing for a brighter future, they can't stop anytime soon
Yes you're right…people in the DPRK can't afford BMW's and Patek Philipp watches. What a shame…how can people live without access to such things!
pure bullshit taken off from some New York Times article
Wrong. You can criticize through the right channels. And there's even two other political parties you can vote on the elections if you're unhappy with the current state of affairs
The people that go to the labor camps are a menace to the well being of society. greedy people, corrupted people. If you're not going to rehabilitate those people, they become like Trump and one day they're presidents of USA.

So the same thing as US Prisons.

Additionally, the workday in South Korea is longer than in North Korea. In North Korea you get long lunchbreaks, which people use to go to free community centers which offer education. Work time is legally restricted. Workplaces are democratically managed:
country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-9558.html

Correct. It's a language game. When it's bad it's a "labor camp", when it's good it's a "prison".

because, as the book argues, Juche is a sham ideology with no substance.
Weird how you haven't addressed the main argument of the book, which is that North Korea became a haven for collaborators with the Japanese imperialists and that their government, propaganda, and party ideology is structured after that.

I may add that north korean work less than south koreans.
Reminder that you shouldn't compare cuba with swizerland but with haiti, same goes for NK. Don't compare it with the US, compare it with SK.

smelly disingenuous tankie scum
Newly liberalized economies grow faster than more developed ones this is a basic economic fact. North Korea’s growth is actually UNDERPERFORMING compared to what it would be if it opened up like China. Not to mention that while South Korea’s GDP is OVER 1000 BILLION USD North Korea’s GDP is only over 16 billion USD.
0.6% times 1000 billion = 6,000,000,000
3.9% times 16 billion = 624,000,000
WOW turns out even with that higher growth rate North Korea still has lower overall growth than South Korea! Whoop de fucking doo you tankie moron!

This rhetoric is pretty meme tier. If they "are working towards a better future" then they would not feel the need to strike in the first place, making it's illegalization unnecessary. North Korean workers are routinely contracted to work in Russia because they work for so little. Having two controlled opposition parties isn't proof of any kind of political freedom. The fact is North Korea isn't any worse then the west, but that certainly doesn't make them socialist. North Korea still has a class system, a market system, and ultimately isn't any model to follow. The same goes for every other M-L project, really. All of them have resulted in alienated labor and an opportunistic party system that can (and routinely has in the cases of vietnam, china, and russia) degenerate into full blown capitalist oligarchy.

I find it funny how tankies use the most brutal capitalistic logic in their arguments. A whole nation turned into a labour camp? But it's growing, it's growing!

I read your source, and even with the inaccuracies (so he was in Camp 18, not 14, so what?), it still does not contradict the core details of his story about the brutalization in the camps.

Are you fucking serious? That's your argument? "A brighter future" is what justifies the state prohibiting workers from striking? Literally a "muh bootstraps"-tier argument.

They can't afford fucking anything than what the government provides them. Absolutely no freedom at all.

Yeah, and those parties are totally controlled by the main Korean """"""Workers'"""""" Party.
You are a fucking joke.

I'm not talking about the fucking US here. There's plenty to be said about the US penal system, and yes many "prisons" here do amount to labor camps, but that's for a different thread. Are you too fucking retarded to remain on topic?

The book doesn't argue that. It just says it. It didn't quote primary sources except one time and doesn't even analyze it. 95% of the book is not about Juche. That's what I call a scam, since it claims to BTFO Juche.
His argument there is straight-up nonsense. He argues that South Korea sent intellectuals to prison, whereas North Korea didn't. He completely decontextualizes it, the reason South Korea did that was because it was a fucking military dictatorship that killed 1 million of its own people and sent every intellectual to a camp because intellectuals were suspected to be communists. In the North, intellectuals weren't persecuted. To argue that North Korea, a country that threatens to nuke Japan, would be benevolent to Japanese sympathizers is insanity. Because people who spoke Japanese weren't fucking exterminated in the DPRK Myers argues that "Japanese collaborators" were appreciated. That's a joke and Goebbels tier.
He argues that not based on primary sources, but through a pseudo-freudian analysis of propaganda posters. Nobody who's lived in the DPRK agrees with this or with the Songbun bullshit.
You are making a moral argument. Moral arguments can only exist with a reference point. You are demanding that a struggling country, being the most sanctioned entity on planet earth, is a fucking hippie community.

WEWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwww

>>>Holla Forums

Fuck off. It was asked whether their economy was growing. Nothing more. Source for the labor camps and their part within the DPRK GDP please?

Why would he lie? CNN article was obviously euphemistic, just google this shit. NK defectors lie all the time, the ones who make into the news anyway. They are all well dressed and speak perfect English. Nothing fishy here at all.
In a socialist economy, the surplus is already allocated and micromanaged to maximize satisfaction of social needs. What entitles you to more money than your fellow workers?

I like how you are completely ignoring the fact that the DPRK is the most sanctioned country in world history. It's like on another planet. Could that have something to do with the struggle that the DPRK goes through? No, it must be that Kim Jong Un eats babies.

Just to add, striking isn't technically illegal in the DPRK. That doesn't mean it would probably be cracked down upon, but there is no offical legal document that outlaws it. The guy was just talking out of his ass.

it wouldn't*

kys

I didn't boast over the GDP. I said their economy is growing faster than South Korea. That's a fact. What do you expect their GDP to look like in their situation? They can't even trade with China anymore.
Kill yourself neoliberal tool

but that's literally what happened
So the big bad american imperialists made them build prison camps?

Also:
0.6% (although it's 2.8 on your graph lmao) times 1000 billion = 6,000,000,000
3.9% times 16 billion = 624,000,000
WOW turns out even with that higher growth rate North Korea still has lower overall growth than South Korea! Whoop de fucking doo you tankie moron!

No, it's Holla Forums tier conjecture about the "nature of the Korean people". It's bullshit. I already mentioned why is argument is shit.
They are technically at war and practically under a permanent siege. Also, stop using anti-communist rethoric. They are prisons. Either you use the word "prison camp" both for Western prisons and Asian prisons or you don't.

And btw, still haven't gotten a source about these camps besides a satelite image of a random building. You are claiming the positive, prove it.

Source is the Bank of Korea. You got a different source? You are being an incredible retard if you believe that they could skyrocket their GDP while being under sanctions.

Kim Jong Il more like Ching Chong NIGGER, am I right?

great argument, most people here are opposed to the prison system in the US

no, its a historically documented fact that korean intellectuals who collaborated with the japanese imperialists fled to the North and were not discriminated against for their right wing beliefs

It would be nice if you were actually addressing my argument I gave earlier. First off, they weren't all "right-wing". During Japanese occupation, it was naturally for intellectuals to learn Japanese. They were Japanese-speaking Koreans. The reason why they went north was because that South Korea was putting intellectuals in prison because every academic was assumed to be communist. You just regurgitate this claim that every Japanese speaking person was a right-winger. This is just proof that anti-DPRK ideologues can't have their cake and eat it. On one hand, Songbun is described as a system that allegedly imprisons family members of Japanese collaborators, on the other hand Japanese defectors were revered in the DPRK. Make your mind up.
Again, I've already said: This is a moral argument. A moral argument is only valid with a point of reference. By comparing the DPRK with the biggest economy in the world I already go along with your ridiculous narrative. To be totally honest, you'd compare North Korean prisons to prisons in countries that have a similar GDP.

US Prison system, death Penalty, and the Second Admendent are the only things Burgers are right on. Those who murder and rape owe a debt to society. A debt that can only be repaid thought here own labor.

You mean a heavily privatized industry where potheads get used as labor for porky?

newfocusintl.com/exclusive-private-ownership-land-now-legal-north-korea/

A New Focus correspondent inside North Korea reported through telephone: “Until now, the North Korean government had deemed the private purchase of land or real property as illegal. However, there has been an obvious increase recently in the number of construction companies building apartment blocks and so forth. It appears that the state has realised the limitations of the current legislation and are taking countermeasures. These include new rules relating to the boundaries of newly-constructed buildings, or where land can be bought, and the penalties, mainly confiscation, for exceeding those boundaries.”

ouch

take your meds

jim kicks ass at web design

Bumperinoding

You know the difference between private property and personal property, yes? Extorting rents is still illegal. Let's say that "inside source" is right, there still hasn't been any legal confirmation of this.

The black market always existed in the DPRK since '91 - they don't even deny this! Reason for that was that central planning pretty much collapsed as the Arduous March began (stop of imports of fertilizers and pesticides from the USSR), and Songun policy was intensified, as the goal of attaining nuclear weapons was made the priority. The state retreated partly from the economy (with the creation of the National Defense Commission as highest institution) so there was no other way as regressing to market exchange as a way to provide food and housing.

However, if you were informed about the DPRK, you'd know that they are currently in the process of dismantling Songun, and returning to controlled byungjin policy (simultaneous nuclear and economic development) - that includes the housing sector. Stuff like this proves it functioning better and better:
upi.com/North-Korea-moving-flood-victims-into-new-homes/2691479344309

When do you get to the part where you explain how nk is actually socialist?

when theres actually development from after 50yrs ill start caring

Yeah damn straight, we has kingz and sheit and that's socialism because fiefdom is owned by muh state and king is a worker so it's dictatorship of the proletariat

I'm starting to get more sympathetic to NK because of your shitty arguments. Get your fucking act together

same shit

My fucking god, make an argument. I've wrote walls of text where I argue that the DPRK is socialist with sources I'm not going to do it again as you will ignore it and you are not worthy to be responded to with such low effort shitposts.
You don't even know what that means. Feudalism is a mode of production where relationships between people become legalized in a barter economy. Capitalism is legalized relationships to things.

Wew. I don't think Korea is feudalism or anything but that's wrong. The feudal mode of production is one where the main form of property is land and surplus value is extracted through feudal contracts and taxes

That's late-stage feudalism right before capitalism. I didn't quite say feudalism is just barter economy, didn't I? In feudalism, land isn't owned but the right of usufruct is owned. A lord would grant a peasent the right of usufruct to sustain itself in exchange for his duties as serf (serving in a war). Surplus extraction wasn't generalized and surplus value didn't exist.

Close. Usufruct implies temporary control of the land, usually for a few years or the person's lifetime. It cannot be inherited. Feudal lords owned the land and allowed the peasants the right to work the land in exchange for tribute (the surplus from their harvests) and military service. The lords in turn swore fealty and military service to a stronger lord in a feudal contract. The peasant didn't lease the land, he was a part of it.

To elaborate: peasants lived and worked the land in order to sustain themselves (reproduce). The lord claimed ownership of the land, the title of which hos family inherited, and extracts the surplus they produce through tribute and taxes (surplus value extraction), as well as usually demanding military service. Then come church tithes and all that jazz but the basic premise of the mode of production remains that the peasants work the land more or less independently and their surplus extracted through tithes and taxes (by those who lay claim to the land they live on)

nice reading comprehension

it takes a pretty large cuck to defend the DPRK desu

You obviously didn't grow up breaking rocks at a railroad.

The "education" includes lessons on how to properly mourn the death of the "Dear Leader."

If NK is socialist then why did they remove references to Marx and Lenin from their constitution?

I'm NK fanboy but I'm pretty sure they don't have a nobility, knights and shit

that's more of a korean thing, south koreans don't have it much better, maybe even worse telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/action-demanded-south-korea-excessive-overtime-culture-following/

Fuck off. I bet you think Tupac and the six gorrillion kulaks are dead too.

Its literally just SK/US smear

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