Is there any legitimate argument against this book? I've never seen anyone actually refute the claim that the DPRK is an ethno-nationalist state with a superficial veneer of Soviet aesthetics.
The Cleanest Race
I don't think there's a definitive one - in part, because of how secretive NK is.
It's certainly fascinating. I take a "middle ground" position - ie it may not all be accurate, and there may be more Maoist influence, but Myers' most striking arguments seem to hold up.
Because it is and the fact that it is is basically common knowledge at this point
the only people who still claim it as socialist are absolutely delusional tankies lolbergs and nut-sacs who think MLs and Juche are the same thing and liberals and enlightened centrists who know jack shit
The most common arguments I've heard against the book is that Juche is supposed to be a ideology for the common people of the world, and that there actually is a very heavily influence of Maoist thought in North Korea.
pretty much, but it is worth remembering that just because DPRK a shit doesn't mean you have to take the position that liberals seem to automatically take - which is that this is justification for grinding economic sanctions and bombastic threats to destroy them or topple their government from outside. (not implying you do this baathflag)
Literally CNN-tier argument. It's the peak of Yankee arrogance, chauvinism, and projection to claim that the country that America COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST, AND CONTINUES TO THREATEN GENOCIDE AGAINST is secretly some kind of child-like Yellow Menace Nazi Empire.
You faggots will believe anything. You'll get hyped over and over again, endlessly, for shitty imperialist socdem parties, from Syriza to Podemos to Bernie to Corbyn's Labour, yet you absolutely loathe anyone in the third world who struggles against NATO.
Not an argument.
In fact, Myers argues that nork racialism is very different from Nazi racialism, but you would already know that if you had actually read the book instead of going for knee jerk "muh anti-imperialism".
nobody said anything remotely like that you dumb faggot
I dont think its socialism in fact i think its close to a monarch
but will still stand with the DPRK against US imperialism
Oh shit Kim is taking a picture with a fucking BASED BLACK man, he must not be racist at all! I bet he even shook his hand!
Nice fucking evidence you imperialist shitheads.
The book in the OP uses plenty of evidence for its claims.
I was just wondering if there was any legitimate counter-evidence or if it was all just "anti-imperialist" contrarianism. I think these posts have partially answered by question.
they refuse to buy my goods goy.
There answer is no but you shouldn't need counter-evidence to reject slanderous lies. Have some faith in your DPRK comrades.
How about no. I don't owe them anything. Myers has facts and research. You have contrarianism.
He's being facetious, making a joke that the other user is reducing the whole of the discussion to an easily perceptible insurmountable dichotomy between the forces to maintain imperialism and those that combat it, which is obviously trite and spurious in its moralist bribe of the question of whether or not to support North Korea. also fuck that other user
BO, if you're going to ban people for taking a contrary position of the ethics of barrel bombs, you can atleast ban insane shitposters like this.
Oh I see.
Poe's Law and all that. It can be difficult telling the difference between a genuine retarded tankie and someone being ironic.
Yeah, like the Black Book of Communism.
Even the authors admitted it was poorly sourced propaganda.
yes, that's what I'm saying.
And this isn't.
Or maybe it is, but if it is, I'd like to see contradicting evidence.
Here's a lecture by the author summarizing the book:
Well you've just seen someone deny it. Does that count?
But they aren't comrades. Well, maybe the proles (more like peasants at this point, but whatever) are still comrades but the regime are blatantly reactionary, ethno-nationalist fucktards.
I mean, for fucks sake man they removed communism from their constitution. All you're doing is hurting yourself and the image of Leftists by supporting them!
NK is NAZBOL
What is wrong with ethno nationalism if it's communist? If I still belive in communism and internationalism but I want to keep my traditions without hurting no one?
Uh, I've never seen anyone actually prove to me that this true. Have you read that book? It's full of rumors, hearsay and conjecture. Reminder that these books have a very bad track record of holding up to scrutiny, and come with an agenda:
The most ridiculous argument I've heard is that they racist because they don't have muh multiculturalism - Tumblr tier argument. How are they supposed to have multiculturalism when they are cut off from the entire world?
Please read up on Juche before making statements out of context. The reason why they removed communism from their constitution is because they believe that it's unattainable as long as imperialism exists. Secondly, why does it matter anyway, it doesn't change the material base or anything when you write something into your constitution. If your follow through with your logic China must be socialist because they are drenched in Marxist rethoric.
Please stop bashing the DPRK, they are doing better than Cuba right now and all you achieve is being useful idiots for imperialism.
This, based thank poster. People should read juche before posting in these threads
im going to need a big fucking citation for that
Don't forget to uncritically support capitalist Cuba :^)
Why? Does Cuba have nukes? Does Cuba has skyscrapers and science centers, waterparks and huge museums? Does Cuba have the same amount of workplace democracy? Does Cuba economy actually grow rapidly? Does Cuba have a gift economy?
Like, I'm loving Cuba and all, but they have been lukewarm since a while now, DPRK is a fucking steam engine compared to that - while being the most sanctioned country on the planet
Are you okay? Getting a brain seizure is not an argument
at least North Koreans won't literally gas me for who I was born to
Free housing, all social services are free, most consumer goods are distributed for free such as smartphones or TVs, tools are being handed to the workers for free as well
The rest of your post isn't worthy replying to:
wtf I love red monarchy now
It relies on it so much that it makes up less than 4% of their economy, but glad you read the Washington Post
Yes there is: it was written by a neoliberal. Throw it in the trash along with its imperialist "arguments"
I'm going to side with Myers here and say that Juche is a sham ideology that the DPRK doesn't even attempt to follow. It's meant to be praised, not understood or practiced. Their real ideology is their brand of ethno-nationalism with USSR-aping characteristics.
To my knowledge, a lot of the shit in North Korea comes from China, just like everywhere else, largely in exchange for access to the DPRK's cheap coal and minerals.
North Korea is Nazbol
you mean like Myers book which actually attempts to do research unlike tankies who instinctively defend any country with a red flag?
Is "self-determination" just a meme that tankies use to justify nationalism?
Why was my post deleted??!
No, if I'm going to make a claim about something I read the source material.
are you a shill or just retarded
They use it to justify class collaboration so it's even worse.
Where is the DPRK class collaborationist? Also, the entire fucking board shills for SocDems and liberals like Corbyn, Jimmy Dore, etc. all the fucking time, don't come at me like that.
Songbun is definitely a class system, and the official party definitely collaborated with the upper classes.
SocDems are infinitely better than class collaborationists.
SocDems are the definition of class collaborationists.
They look like the cleanest of all races from liberal amerimutt view.
Under Songbun the class a person is born into (more or less) determines the social/economic opportunities available to a person.
Wrong. Socdems are reformists, which doesn't entail class collaborationism in the slightest.
That's absolute horseshit. There are NO sources WHATSOEVER confirming that. Posting this again because people refuse to read it:
Songbun did entail a mere block for families which used to support South Korea in the Korean War to enter political offices.
A capitalist welfare state is pretty fucking class collaborationist to me. Are you talking about 19th century SocDems who were Marxists?
which is exactly what the book this thread is about does
yes it does
If I want to know about Juche, I read books about the Juche idea first by Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il. After that I might consider a secondary source. But reading a secondary source first, of which you know it already has an extremly negative opinion about, is like reading Marx through Mises and Hayek.
Lmao. That article is paranoiac, conspiracy-tier, garbage. Yes a lot of bullshit propaganda about the DPRK exists, but you can't just mindlessly dismiss all criticism of it as "propaganda". Barbara Demick wrote extensively about Songbun, am I supposed to believe that she's a gov't spook too? The book at the top of this thread talks extensively about Songbun too, is B.R. Myers a gov't spook? Is everyone who disagrees with you a psyop?
Explain how. inb4 "they're only trying to placate the masses with welfare xDD"
There's a bunch of strains of SocDem, and class collaborationism isn't a strong tendency in any of them.
This ignores that a central tenet of Myers' arguments in his book for an ethno-nationalist interpretation of the DPRK are that Juche is a huge pile of steaming horseshit. He also points to the use of racialized caricature in propaganda posters as evidence, which hardly stands up to scrutiny given the US posters of the Japanese enemy during world war two.
What did they say that isn't true?
I don't care, I'd like to see evidence. See how nobody in this threat actually posted any source, because it doesn't it exist. These books almost entirely rely on conjecture. How come that nobody who lived in the DPRK for a longer time confirms this even in the slightest? If you read these books yourself, you realize they are based on personal deductive reasoning of the author based on hearsay and a lot of "ifs" and "mights".
If you can't see this yourself I can't help you.
the propaganda posters aren't the only evidence he provides but they do highlight North Korea's total non-commitment to socialist universalism.
DPRK supports Palestine, Cuba and supported fucking Leftcoms (!!!) in Sri Lanka in the 70s.
But alright, you expect a country that fights for survival and is gang pressured by the entire globe to be a shining beacon of internationalism. Hilarious
What about the black cuban dipolmat who almost got lynched in Failyong?
No, that's high-rises.
Is that Vertigo - The Building?
Oh, give me a break!
Sool-Bong made eight things today. But Suul-Bhung only made one. Therefore everyone gets to rape Sool-Bong.
Also, the horrible case of Otto Warmbier. He wasn't lost in Congo or some other shit place. He was there as a tourist under the aegis of Happy Sun Pioneer Program Exchange, or whatever bullshit it's called. He wasn't accused of any serious crime. Not even kicking puppies. But accused of stealing one of their shitty posters.
Fuck, I hate North Korea. If the US takes action against it, I wouldn't be surprised if Vietnam tags along just ty try out their airforce.
Given the primacy of the military within North Korean society, in the same manner as the US when all those posters of Tojo were produced, no it does not show that.
lol you don't even have any proof they killed him. he probably just got sick or tried to kill himself.
They said a bunch of true things, I'm sure, but the article isn't a refutation of the claim that Songbun is a class system.
Neither did you.
I have. Most of what B.R. Myers and Barbara Demick do is take primary sources (i.e. interviews, propaganda, reporting) and package it with analysis that gives these sources historical context. "They're full of shit, it's all heresay" isn't an argument.
It surely reveals its about as credible about the DPRK as Solzhenitsyn is for the USSR.
How the fuck am I supposed to prove a negative?! I can only respond to claims which are made, and none of them go beyond "DPRK is a racist caste system because this American author said so".
So interviews with handpicked defectors are now as credible as reports of people who lived for years in the DPRK? Fact is: Nowhere in the DPRK is the stuff mentioned. Nobody ever saw it or experienced it. But we are supposed to believe it because a defector says so and this one guy doesn't like Juche?
What about it? Do you think people who almost never see a foreigner can't be racist? Is this supposed be a proof of institutional racism in the DPRK because of a bunch of dickheads?
The rest of your post isn't worth responding to, it's just muh Warmbier and then you conclude by wishing for an imperialist invasion of Korea.
No, not really. Solzhenitsyn's motives for demonizing the USSR weren't exactly pure, but pointing that out isn't an argument against his work. It's clear that collectivization was a disaster, just not to the absurd degree that Solzhenitsyn claimed it was. Stalin wasn't a evil, power hungry dictator, he just unwaveringly believed in destroying capitalism even in the face of disaster. Nuance is a thing, y'know. You don't have to uncritically accept propaganda to oppose capitalism
You claimed that Songbun isn't a class system. You can argue this point in a variety of ways. You could take an excerpt of Kim Il-sung talking about Songbun to prove me wrong. You could explain what Songbun actually is and explain why it doesn't fit into the category of "class system". It's not really that hard to back up the claims you make.
Well I guess that depends on the defector and the source from inside the DPRK, doesn't it? A healthy suspicion of sources is a good thing, but you've got to apply it equally.
The fuck? The DPRK doesn't deny that Songbun exists. No idea what gave you this idea.
It achieved its goal and skyrocketed economic output. Solzhenitsyn's book is fiction. Read Allen: From Farm to Factory
You are making the claim that it does. North Korea certainly doesn't, so you need to prove them wrong.
Not really. According to the DPRK, all citizens have equal rights. Songbun was merely an assessment of the underlying stance towards communism in the 50s, in a speech of Kim Il-Sung. That's right: Songbun is nothing more than a speech of Kim Il-Sung in 1958. There is no official doctrine, or legal system, or social system that would perpetuate it the way it is described. You can't find excerpts of Kim Il-Sung or whatever about it, because it's a fabrication. Show me prove of Songbun existing as a system besides a 60 year old speech about loyality to communism.
What a good mindset. Collectivization had a massive human cost, and claiming the growth they experienced later on justified that is pretty sickening.
I agree. I'm not defending Solzhenitsyn here, my point is that Solzhenitsyn being wrong doesn't mean that collectivization was good.
Not sure you've read it tbh, Allen explicitly states that collectivization was a horrifying disaster. His claims about the gains of the Soviet industrial revolution only really apply from the mid 30's until the 70's.
And why would they lie about that???? RMMT.
He was assessing what he saw to be the class character of the people in the DPRK at the time. Obviously there isn't a state sponsored caste system in the DPRK. There's no explicit rules that prevent someone with a bad family background from attaining a higher social/economic status just like there isn't any explicit rules under capitalism that prevent upwards social mobility. You clearly don't understand what a class system is (as opposed to a caste system). Songbun is a class system.
Stalin said if they don't industrialize within ten years, they are going to get destroyed. WWII proved him right.
You claimed that the DPRK itself admits Songbun exists. They don't.
Is it so obvious now?
Sure there is: Money. Do you have similar economic or social systems in the DPRK that you can identify as such? You just admitted that they don't have an official doctrine, nor do they have some system in place for that. So where does this discrimination actually happen? Some people got treated badly when they went on the bakery in the morning because their granddad collaborated with the Japs? The entire burden of proof is on you bub
A caste system is a class system. Class systems can be permeable or not. Class is defined by Marx as a relationship to production.
The claim that Stalin pushed for collectivization in anticipation of WWII is utterly anachronistic and absurd. WWII started in 1939 but the first five year plan ended in 1932. Hitler wasn't even appointed as chancellor of Germany until 1933, and even then the Comintern could likely have prevented that from happening if they had taken different actions than they did. You're retarded if you think that Stalin collectivized in anticipation of becoming a world power.
Songbun means something akin to "birth status", which is something people in the DPRK recognizes exists.
Once again, you're proving your ignorance. There's no rules preventing someone from making money under capitalism. Rather it's the material and social conditions that determine a person's ability to attain status. In the DPRK production is centralized to a greater degree than it is elsewhere, so class is largely determined by one's relation to the party.
Regardless, your point here is moot given the economic liberalization that has been occurring in the DPRK. Money is another thing that produces class divisions in the DPRK.
Read Marx, faggot. Classes and castes are both ways to achieve a social division of labor, but Marx didn't view them as equivalent.
I watched it. It was good tbh. A lot of it I already knew, but I liked the guy's analysis.
I watched it, it was horrible. It didn't talk about Juche at all. He showed a single except of Kim Il-Sung in the beginning for 30 seconds (!!!) while the rest of it was just conjecture based on propaganda posters and a single interview he had with a defector. It was claimed in this thread, repeaditly, that Myers works with primary sources - he clearly doesn't. He also has clearly an imperialist perspective - he deliberately cuts out the period of division between North and South. He claims that because North Korea didn't literally murder his intellectuals like the South (a genocidal puppet regime that killed almost a million of its own people), they are somehow complicit in fabricating Japanese style nationalism because these intellectuals spoke Japanese.
The claim about racism comes out of nowhere. He keeps repeating that they are all racist and such, but never explains why. His shows a propaganda poster that depicts Koreans as noble and Americans as savages - this is proof for institutional racism for him. After 45 minutes, he openly advocates to topple the DPRK, because negotiatians with them are meaningless because they're racists. Again, no sources. He misinterprets Songun policy completely, and is factually proven wrong by the return to bujing policy recently, which means centrally planned economic development. Songun was a reaction to the isolation of North Korea, not an ideogocial apparatus to keep people in line.
This was actually worse than I thought it was.
He didn't have to anticipate fascism. His claim was that capitalist and imperialist powers are going to destroy the USSR, by the end of the 1920s. You can sperg out about this all day long, but he said it, so I don't particulary care.
Keep backpedaling. Source this shit to me or shut up, because I've never heard or read this from North Koreans ever, and I've concerned myself with them quite a lot.
Capitalism, as to previous modes of production, is the most permeable, but that doesn't make feudalism not a class system.
It really doesn't. Special Economic Zones make almost no revenue, Kaesong has been closed and the state is reattaining its control over the economy which it had lost in the 90s. Songun was an emergency policy in reaction to times or turmoil, right now they are focusing on economic development again due to the achievement of nuclear deterrence. Songun left the economy alone, in civil hands, right now black markets are cracked down upon.
I have. Nowhere in the German ideology or in marxists.anu.edu.au
does he say that castes can't constitute a class. Castes are hereditary divisions of labor, which is a relationship to the means of production, which can constitute classes when there are distinguished upper classes.
You're a massive faggot, and you missed the point of most of my post. Kill yourself.
So the conclusion is no actual sources about your or Myers claims exist. It's just speculation based on looking at a propaganda poster and a single defector interview. Glad we sorted that out.
Thanks for watching it so we didn't have to.
You misinterpreted what I said so there's no point in responding to you. Kill yourself, faggot.