Muh meme arguments ban

Fair enough, but why is this such an issue?

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user you're embarrassing yourself

American detected. Read a fucking book.

Don't bother, americans can't visualize economics outside of thought experiments which involve burgers.

labor theory of value is fucking retarded
because you can apply infinite labor to the ground you fucking nigger, and you are still going to produce 0 gold
the only reason your labor is producing any gold, is because you are told W H E R E to dig, it makes all the difference where you dig, your own back yard or a gold mine, and even infinite labor wouldnt produce any fucking gold if you dont know where to dig
same with literally everything else
that restourant isnt being profitable because precious you are carrying the food from kitchen to the table, but because someone else figured out the location, suppliers, size, competition, supply, demand, etc etc

that's not what the labor theory of value is. read the thread and promptly commit suicide you waste of oxygen.

This is literally explained in the first section of the first volume of Capital. Don't criticise things you don't know.

The absolute state of the right!

no it really is
that whole "historical necessity" (LOL this makes esoteric hitlerists seem scientific in comparison) and idealization of the braindead manual laborers comes out of there

this is why no one takes marx's economy seriously
go ahead and start a corporation where every worker is also a shareholder and a board member and a ceo
go ahead and do it
see what happens to your factory where majority of the board are borderline illiterate manual labor boozed up retards with almost zero long term vision or problem solving capacity
see how long before they eat their breeding stock, or start selling their machinery to buy more booze and prostitutes

hierarchies are results of merit
wealth inequality is caused by problem solving capacity inequality, efficiency inequality and productivity inequality


no it doesn't. LTv doesn't mean "workers deserve what they produce".
you mean a co-op? they exist, but they struggle because workers still have to exploit themselves to sell the cheapest product and compete with other corporations
why would I let this happen? have you ever heard of "freedom of association"?
why hasn't this happened throughout the course of human history? do you think members of our species have been slaves since day 1?
yet you're probably willing to admit that equal opportunity doesn't exist. this is troubling.

For most of human history people have directly controlled their livelihood and its means and magically they didn't all die out because they decided to eat the seeds instead of planting them. Here you are saying that the workers somehow care less about their livelihood than the CEOs and shareholders who don't give a fuck about the company beyond how much money it can make them, and are unfazed if they destroy it because they have shit like golden parachutes and plenty of other opportunities.


Zizek refers this one time in one of his movies. He talks about how it is used to justify things, and to remove responsibility from the individual, by allowing him to say "I did it, but only because historical progress demanded it".

This is a myth, but it is not entirely baseless. There are plenty of leftists who do idealise manual labourers. However, socialism is about a classless society, not a manual labourers' society, so all kinds of people would be there.

Doubtful. Lots of people take it seriously. There are, however, interests in saying that it is not to be taken seriously. Otherwise the exploitative nature of capitalism would be plain for all to see. They prefer to support interpretations of the economy that talk about the positive impacts of the bourgeoisie on society.

This does happen. It's called a cooperative. Typically they don't last long, because they accumulate less profit that they can use to expand the company, and so can't keep up with companies that exploit their workers, and thus have a larger profit that they can invest.

You know not everyone who works in a company is a manual worker, right?

This is a contradiction of the meaning of the word. Hierarchies are always the result of force or authority. They sometimes coincide with merit, but this is rare.

There's a dude who bought stocks from google when they were a small company. He is rich as fuck now.
Tell me how his fortune was made by his problem solving capacity.


read marx

even just the first 3 pages of chapter 1 of capital

Uhhhhhhhh, yeah?
Hierarchies are literally older than Babylon, the Pyramids and the Bible.

From the Far East, to Mediterranian empires and native american cultures isolated from the old world like the Aztecs, they all had slavery.

A penny for your thonks my good man

A corporation playing pretend.
Don't know about those.
Such as?


Heard of John Lewis?

Not if you can find it for $3, no.

Forgot shitpost flag.

Coops exist you stupid fuck, and you don't have to reject management positions in them, it's about the owners, that is to say shareholders.
Your whole stupid fucking argument literally depends on smug stereotypes and the idea that somehow managers, not owners mind you, are any more important than the other laborers in a business I'd love to see a manager of a factory make anything without people who know how to operate and maintain the the machines.

My god, the ideology.

You do realize you don't even need Marx's LTV to support any kind of socialism, or that socialism was not founded by Marx, right?

why are people so fucking stupid

One doesn't spend more for what he like most. He simply buys it first.

super late stage capitalism

so if i like soda more than someone else i should pay more for it?
isn't this likeā€¦ violence?

all value is created by labor =/= all labor creates value

The value of a thing is complicated to measure.

Let's talk about dildoes, because we all know Holla Forums or Holla Forums all you fucks think about all day is big meaty dicks regardless.

-Person A likes dicks a lot
-Person B doesn't care that much about dicks, just wants his butt stuffed
-I spend 3 weeks crafting the most beautiful dildo ever made, it's lifelike, somehow self lubricating, fleshy, warm, pulsating, has veiny textures etc
-Person A instantly spills all his spaghetti and gives me 100 bucks
-Person B gives me 10 bucks because as far as he can see it's just like anything else he'd stick up his ass
-I spend 5 minutes making a shitty rectangle-ish mold of cheap plastic vaguely shaped like a stick
-Person A gives me 1 buck, he needs to get off but he barely consider this a dildo
-Person B gives me 10 bucks because it'll fill him up as well as anything else and he doesn't give a shit about the quality of it

So how much were those two objects OBJECTIVELY WORTH?
How much was my effort, talent and personal labor in builting those two objects OBJECTIVELY WORTH?
What decides how much a thing is worth, how much my time building something is worth, and the objective value of my time + the quality of that object if every single motherfucker on the planet has a different personal opinion on the value of that thing, depending on their intelligence, need at that specific point in time, and compatibility with that work, and a million other additional factors that wildly shift from end to end?
And how do you force companies that make things not to immediately target plebs that don't know any better because they buy the things they make with the lowest cost, at the highest price, thus turning out the biggest profit for the lowest effort?

No he won't, because you won't sell it for 10 bucks. You spent way more on its making and if you did sell it for 10 bucks, you'd end up bankrupt.

No he won't; he will give 1 buck to your concurrent.

It's funny to see how profits and markets apologists systematically forget about profits and markets when it comes to defending their retarded subjective theory of value.

This is what the market is for.

Why would the guy buy it for 100$ if you sold it to the other guy for 10$? Also individuals are always free to do whatever they want. Thats the easy part of social theory. The hard part is figuring out why these actions fluctuate around a social norm.

It took me 10 minutes to work out my last shit loaf, does that mean it's worth a much as a burger?

Thats not social or useful labor


It's nice of you for tipping the cook for doing such a great job, but don't expect the prices to rise from that.