thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/355668-florida-gov-declares-state-of-emergency-ahead-of-richard-spencer-campus Weird news, comrades. After vacillating on the issue, the university of Florida (UF) has decided to host Richard Spencer. I think they always intended to host him, and just needed to make the appropriate arrangements between the different state organizations (school, sheriff's office, uni police department). Lots of money was transferred for "security". The state of emergency extends to the whole county. There will be lots of state personnel and firepower.
I want your take on this. What should UF students do? Leftists will probably be woefully outnumbered.
When is someone just gonna finally drive-by this faggot? I don't care if it makes him a martyr, just off him already.
Let the Spencer speak, stay calm and not disrupt, but if his brainlet army should try to do the tiki torch march or mow down more lefties, it's fashbeating time.
Basically, treat them like children who can have their toy but only if they can keep the noise down.
This isn't really true, they're forced to host him by some cock-eyed interpretation of the first amendment (Auburn got sued by Spencer et al for refusing him a platform and they lost and had to pay damages to him).
So much for the emotionally mature right, they're so triggered by liberal universities they get daddy court to force them to accommodate them.
he is barely a threat, stop being so petty.
Burgerland sure does love to protect their David Duke wannabes
Shut the fuck up Gorka
In Charlottesville the police were ordered to stand down, which caused the massive brawl
Have you forgotten St. Justin's maxim you alt-left faggot?
DEY WILL NEVER DAYK OUR MAYMAYS
Look. I hate antifa. I hate all them redliberals smashies. That said one of them should kill this faggot. Seriously. Drop him
what are you actually talking about?
More like St. Pussy lmao I have no idea who that is but he sounds like a fag
Except when you go outside Florida
What's even Spencer's deal? Is he just a cynical corporate/government agent putting one over all these armchair white-nationalists? Pulling a growing sentiment into the public light so names and numbers can be taken down for later use?
Reasonable suspicion, but there is no proof of this though. My personal theory is that he is not directly working for someone, but unironically thinking he is in the middle of some mass movement and by going forward he might earn the protection and funding from some important burger millionaires/billionaires.
Rich dude in charge of a think tank. He probably legit believes in all the stuff he says, but is luckily so ineffectual that it's embarrassing.
like in Boston? :^)
why wouldn't you host someone with controversial philosophy at a university of all places?
imagine trying to pedal that bike up a hill
Why do people go to college again? Can't anyone be bothered to articulate a positive view of multiculturalism and show Spencer's ideas as bankrupt? Or do we just try to elevate him?
Inb4 violence is the only solution, cuz no one is killing him
It's not a debate, they're just handing him a platform.
There are many problems with the "just debate him" maxim but the main one is that he's not interesting in presenting anything coherent. How exactly do you refute "white people deserve a homeland". There's a lot of assumptions wrapped up in that statement that Spencer isn't going to address, you have to, his only job is to appear reasonable and that's what people are going to take away from it. Spencer's ideas are intellectually bankrupt but they are emotionally charged and are winning rhetorical moves. As long as he can broadcast his message, he's happy. Any winding chomskyian takedown is just going to be ignored.
The absolute gall of a university to host someone with controversial opinions… : \
Honestly this. Im all for killing fascists but a diversity of tactics really is necessary. We need some charismatic anti-liberal communists debating people like Spencer. Antifas cool for their willingness to put themselves on the line but there needs to be some articulation to their sperging, without context Americans just think theyre weird hooligans with a vague utopian agenda (which is unfortunately true for a lot of Antifa of course, but im saying theyre unique in their militancy compared to the rest of the pathetic american left)
I completely agree with this post but it feels like such a slippery slope if the conclusion is "then we can't let him speak".
Fuck Spencer but there are others on the alt-right who are way, way worse. Spencer is just a rich kid numbskull Dugin fanboy.
If this is the standard for denying someone an academic platform, you might have to bring whole departments down with it.
We are under no obligation to platform him. There really should be more critiques of the alt-right's ideology. Digestible ones that reveal how nakedly unexamined all of it is. We do not have to give Spencer a megaphone in order to do that however.
>"hey guys here's a ancient radical idea: What if feelz>realz and we are in the middle of orcs vs. humans"
It's not just controversial. It's a waste of a platform. Could've gone to someone who was useful. No problem having it go to someone who isn't the political equivalent of a creationist.
It's not rigorous, but neither are most of the speakers from "studies" departments. Ive been in some full-house humanities lectures that were truly the manifestation of a form of academic retardation I didn't even think possible.
That's literally the opposite of what usually occurs
All you have to do is determine some set of "good" societal metrics and convincingly prove that diversity improves those metrics.
Simple: It's the duty of whites to atone for historical wrongs by inviting peoples they previously oppressed to their countries. Or, you can argue that no one deserves a homeland because borders are a bourgeois fiction, and appeal to common human dignity and the logical conclusion of the Enlightenment.
Race realism and white nationalism is irrefutable indeed. We will win.
Neither answer you provided is simple to describe. I've seen a few Spencer interviews and unless you're a maestro he'd be able to nail you to the wall for the "atone" answer especially. It doesn't matter if he's right, he isn't, it matters what's good optics during a debate. Debates are fucking cancer, if you're wondering. I can think of no point in which deeply invested ideologues were ever swayed by rational debate. They are exercises in publicizing, that's why Richard Wolfe goes on fox news to get shouted down. He's trying to get the word out. This is what we're doing with Spencer.
You laugh but it's been working for 50 years now.
also philosophically known as resetting the goal posts
Not simply ordered to stand down. Ordered to push the nationalists into the crowd.
It's just highlighting the fact that universities are not particularly stringent with respect to the rigorousness of their speakers, and Spencer is no different.
lol. Nice liberalism you got there
You are bugs who only exist at our mercy. The last vestiges of Christianity are being cast off by white people and can only protect you for so much longer.
well, why IS ethnic diversity good? One ought to be able to at least argue this without an appeal to moral duty. Moral duty arguments are no good, because an alt-rightist could just as well argue that it's their moral duty to preserve what their ancestors built, so it remains to decide whose morals are correct.
Because labor value is what is valuable, the rest is hear say. Intelligence and crime, no matter how much your petit concerns may be, do not signify whether someone should or should not exist.
There is no answer to that. The only way to debate spancer is by playing his game
lmao you're literally a fucking weeb
it's not that ethnic diversity is good or bad. If you want to argue for ethnonationalism, you have to non-arbitrarily define who is and isn't part of the ethnic in-group and how you will exclude people. It's honestly a bigger practical issue than a moral or economic one
You animals barely even work. All you do is commit tax fraud and cheat welfare and do small scale drug dealing. You organize entire neighborhoods into ethnic ghettos and launder money non stop. You're worthless. What little labor you do is barely worth the trouble of multiculturalism.
but some laborers are more desirable than others (e.g. PhDs from Germany vs. unemployed refuggees from Somalia), so i would not make an economic argument. it's not about whether you exist, but whether you're allowed to become a citizen of a particular country
You have a job? What's your job?
I know, and I'm saying because it's the norm, doesn't make it any more excusable. I have no problem with platforms being removed from them.
That's what I was saying. The poster I responded to is the example of liberal who gives an excuse to them nazi to talk.
In their own particular field. Other than this is not true at all.
Intelligence should not be a factor of citizenship lmao
Go fuck a stick, fashie.
I agree. It would fill me with as much glee to see the women's study building demolished as it would to see spencer get deplatformed at universities
I got you. Was just elaborating.
Damn, so if I walk up to the same campus tomorrow and ask to give a speech on Posadism, will it be "muh free speech" if they just turn me away?
You aren't even arguing for/against ethnic diversity though. Scenario: The government of Germany proposes to admit 1 million Africans in the name of diversity and building a multi-cultural society. Is this good? Why or why not? Can you prove it without making a moral duty argument?
It's just dodging the question. Communism isn't exactly on the horizon, and coming up with a good answer to this question is important if you want to get people to side with you. So, you ought to be able to offer a proof of why, in the scenario I outlined above, the government of Germany ought to admit 1 million Africans, without arguing moral duty. If your best argument is a neoliberal-tier utilitarian one, you're in trouble.
Alt-rightists are mostly exclusionary nationalists. The goal is mainly to exclude Africans, Arabs/Muslims, Jews, and Latin American mestizos. This is a weak argument.
The average burger is absolutely retarded though
To be specific, suppose it's a more or less random cross-section of people from Nigeria.
Truth is that you can't debate him because he's an idpoler. If you go against him with his own terms you lose because you become his strawman, an SJW. So the only way to win here is to get along with him:
So it's good for the economy to dump even bigger retards in the mix by the boat load?
I'm pointing out that the whole "we need more PhDs!" talking point is retarded drivel and you know it.
But that scenario is not desiderable in any way possibile. That's the problem
My point was that some types of laborer are more desirable for an economy than others. You arguing against that is retarded and you know it.
Why? The government of Germany felt otherwise, and they at least had some kind of justification based on neoliberal utilitarianism and moral duty.
What's wrong with a thought experiment? Can you even begin to outline a yes/no and why, here?
I don't think you understand your own point and its implications or you wouldn't think this was a good retort
Fam no. We need to be anti liberal as possible.
Shit I'm not gonna defend merkel or mass immigration. That's my point. I'd rather give a point to spencer and say
Because they are inherently myopic and focus on the particular rather than the whole. 1. Most people here hate Merkel 2. It's a false dichotomy to say you're either your for wholesale immigration under every condition, or anti-diversity.
You're absolutely correct that ethnic diversity in and of itself isn't necessarily a good thing. Liberals and some leftists get stuck on this line of thinking in an effort to oppose far-right rhetoric. Which is kind of the trouble with debating someone like Spencer. He begins the argument from a fallacious standpoint, he doesn't want to address class, he mostly agrees with hierarchies, where does a leftist begin to object? It's his foundations, that race matters or that it's even a valid biological distinction.
In your example, why are the Nigerians so hopelessly impoverished and unskilled? Why is free movement into Germany undesirable for Germans? Because the ill-gotten gains of the western world depend on their misery and the misery of other unfortunate nations. As long as multiculturalism or immigration from the third world is held up to be a good, in and of itself, then we'll remain stuck on this line of thinking. We have to riposte with critiques of capitalism and imperialism as the root cause for human suffering. Not just German or Nigerian suffering. Spencer's objective and that of other ethno-nationalists relies on reaping the harvests of suffering and a continual state of poverty. Just not here, and we can justify it based on the spooks of race and nationality. That's where we must attack.
Then you'll be accused of racism and purged from your local Communist party.
It remains to be shown that capitalist mode of production is causal in mass immigration, and not the desires of a particular national ruling class. Japan has restricted immigration and America has gone from 90-60% white in 50 years through third-world immigration. Both are capitalist. Where's all the immigrants to Japan?
You're a retard. It's really popular to hate Merkel among communist. Ruling class is the key word here. What mode of production do you think allows them to BE the ruling class?
It's fucking college. You are supposed to encounter opinions that rattle you. I remember having to write essays making me argue the opposite opinion of what I had. It toughens you up intellctually. The left is so scared of debate that it's intellectually limp. Millenials leftists don't even have the basic tools to debate Spencer unfortunately.
Challenge race realism from a scientific perspective. Show that racial homogent isn't correlated internationally with either prosperity or satisfaction with life indeces. Get him to admit that his position ultimately entails genocide and force him into the morally bankrupt position. Use history to show the folly of trying to racially homogenize a nation beyond Nazi Germany. There's so many angles to take to run rings around him.
His ideas aren't *completely* intellectually bankrupt, although there's a lot of empirically incorrect assumption lying beneath his ideology. Spencer is more morally bankrupt. Like Libertarians he starts from a morally bankrupt position.
True communist party doen't givea fuck about racism or stuff like that. And most of them in europe are anti immigration
Japan is in desperate need of young blood if they want their economy to grow, which is what capitalism demands. This is the entire reason there's a huge panic over the Japanese disinterest in fucking and starting families. They can't keep up their super restrictive immigration policy without it. Likely we'll see them bend over time, slowly at first, and then all at once. Regions of tokyo will be Filipino and Chinese neighborhoods like the little Italies and Irelands of old within the next 20 years.
So lets give a platform to every fucking kook, not just the ones that have money. Pull the random guy off the street saying the world is going to end tomorrow, because apparently it doesn't matter. No, not every vapid opinion is worth giving a platform to.
The absolute state of a """revolutionary""" saying this Fight the power
sasuga Holla Forums
Japan isn't "desperate" for anything, non white mass migration is literally the last thing they need.
Stay in the jungle and the dunes. The civilized nations of this world have no want for you at all.
The post wasn't an ode to mass immigration from the third world. Capitalism works like this. And we want to change that.
When their economy starts to buckle under the weight of how many fucking old people there are the rhetoric from even the conservative party is going to have to change. It's not what I want, it's what capitalism demands.
Japan's immigrant base, if I'm correct, is mostly other East Asians, like Koreans, Chinese, Japanese Brazilians and Peruvians, etc. Hardly similar to the situation in America or Europe. Of course, you can argue that capitalism causes much of this, but most Communists think diversity is a priori good, so in principle we ought to be able to refute research showing that it can cause problems. Most Communist argumentation against these sort of things amount to kicking the can down the road and arguing that Communism will fix it. We need to be able to convincingly show that this can-kick will actually work, and that "research" proving otherwise is bourgeois nonsense.
All his position would entail would be to cut off some chunk of land out of America, make it into a whites-only country, and to have third-world immigrants not move there. This is hardly genocidal.
For the sake of being pedantic I'm gonna point out that he specifically mentioned Koreans and Chinese which is much more likely.
Do you really believe this?
I should add that this should be possible without dumping 20 volumes of Communist theorists on peoples' desks and telling them to read.
The US has a huge amount of empty space west of the Mississippi. Just cut part of it out and declare it a whites-only country.
It was, at one point. In the 60s it was left wing radicals who fought the power to open up speech. This just shows how fused the far left and the capitalist establishment have become.
Seeing you tell people this is like watching someone feed cats medication
Sauce? Did the skool of Ckultural Marckism wrote this? I'm only at the 10th chapter "how to transform your child into a drag queen"
The naivete in assuming that a fascist party in power would settle for the least economically valuable part of the country, that their sudden invasion wouldn't provoke violence, and that the kid gloves rhetoric they peddle to liberals isn't simply rhetoric. Spencer has even used the term "peaceful ethnic cleansing" and you'd have to be a fucking idiot to miss the implicit desire there.
OP here, glad this thread has grown since the time is short. I don't like this talk of 'giving him a platform, universities are supposed to give us ideas to truly grapple with'. It will all be ideas until people are rounded up and killed. Then no one is left to 'debate'. That's the whole problem with fascists or Nazis. They want to wedge in via freeze peach but in utter bad faith.
Thank you for clarifying. They were gonna bring him on, then canceled, now this.
Those who make revolution halfway dig their own graves?
That's the 'work' of the capitalists you absolute mongoloid
Spencer didn't use that term himself, one of his writers did, either way peaceful population exchanges were a thing for a very long time throughout history and there's no reason to believe they will forever go away. Entire populations are being peacefully exchanged in Syria this very moment.
yeah, he did, you dumb mook.
Well, they're certainly not anti-diversity…
States like Montana, South Dakota, etc. have a very low population density and are almost all white as it is. I don't think they're especially poor, either.
Anti-racism is a hell of a drug isn't it? In all seriousness, it makes perfect sense to agitate for free speech when you lack power, and then ruthlessly crush all dissent when you have it. The rule of law is just something to be taken advantage of.
Waste of time.
Maybe we are pretty indifferent? Falling for your strawmans here
Geez what a line of logic, that the area currently embroiled in a civil war is a good example of a situation in which "peaceful exchange" is viable. I'm aware of the population exchanges throughout history and off the top can't think of one that wasn't preceded by war and conquest. In any case, there is one very good, very recent historical example of "peaceful relocation", managed by a group you types are fond of, being not very peaceful by the end of the day and I don't think I need to spell it out for you.
Quite a bit of those states actually are pretty poor and are reliant on the economically vibrant coasts. But like I said, a fascist party will not be satisfied with the shittiest regions of the country. They will take the lucrative ones, kill or deathmarch any dissidents, and corral them, if they don't just exterminate them, into the undesirable areas. This is what happened when this country was colonized and it's currently happening in Israel. That's what the formation of an ethno-state looks like.
There are a number that occurred under conditions of relative peace, but all of them resulted in massive loss of life, and very reasonable concerns they were used as cover for genocide. Off the top of my head, the internal transfers of the USSR's ethnic republics, or the migrations during the split between India and Pakistan.
Tbh, lots of revolutionary socialists say this about porkies. Your line of reasoning here suggests revolutionary leftists should not be allowed a platform either, since they do intend to incite a violent revolution.
What leftist argues in good faith with fascists? You don't intend to kill them in a violent revolution also?
No they don't. They just understand that porky will try to kill them if we attempt any to make any sort of changes to the system. Remember what happened to Allende.
Killing fascists is good no matter the historical context.
Diversity is coming to you, so if you're not against it, you're certainly implicitly for it.
To expand on this, let's look at a few examples of things the alt-right dislikes about diversity.
The most obvious one is race and crime statistics. Since certain ethnic groups are over-represented in various violent crimes, the alt-right argues that people from these groups should be forbidden from further entry to the country. If Communists agree, then we're agreeing with the alt-right. If not, we ought to be able to show that at least one of the following is true:
Another big one is that diversity lowers social trust, there's a famous study by Putnam. Communists ought to be able to refute this and show that it's a bourgeois lie and that reduction in social trust won't happen under the Communist mode of production, because alt-rightists WILL invoke this work.
There's also the race/I.Q./behavioral genetics stuff. Communists should be able to show that at least one of the following is true:
Basically you just have to refute the behavioral genetics literature and show that these differences are caused by capitalism, racism, sexism, or some combination of the above.
Are you fucking kidding me m8? Leftists don't argue you have to wage violent revolution?
Any college worth it's salt gives a platform to radical or despicable people. It's been going on for decades and this "leftist" deplatforming shit has been going on for decades to, to no good effect.
Colleges let those people in without arresting them for a reason. I'm not kidding. In college I saw people doing their little milkbox speeches in the middle of a walkway quite frequently.
If there's one time to dick around with first principles and far out or immoral or unfamiliar ideas, it's college. Literally no other IRL place is devoted to dealing with that stuff.
This has been observed countless times.
wewm8, just because you couldn't break 100, you don't have to call the test racist
This might be the worst take I've ever read about exposure to ideas in college.
This is my favorite zizek clip and I use it to argue with any capitalist ever. Especially the one that presents the curve bell stuff
No i don't. The discussion here is not if niggers are stupid or not. Obviously with more wealth they will be smarter, not the point tho. Is lower Autism Level enough to justify slavery? Wars? The problem here is that the curve bell and works like that exist only to justify failed capitalist states
One more note: if you argue that things like intelligence testing are racist constructs used to justify keeping people of color in a subordinate position, you're more or less arguing that scientists are engaging in some level of ethnic activism. This basically opens you up to agreeing with the idea of the Culture of Critique, but with a different ethnicity.
Except that's not what happened. Like at all. Also forcibly uprooting workers is violence and should be resisted with force.
The first part is right. Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye if the bourgeois were round up by Jamal's revolutionary vigilante squad and shot.
I'm not asking for a platform. Especially a state-apparatus platform. We can spread our sentiments here, or between random strangers, or at the workplace.
If anything, the catastrophe in Chile highlights that force is the real decider and that the revolution needs to be defended with arms.
I really don't see how this is a "good" thing that needs to be protected, though. I can't find it in me to care if they get more stringent about who they expose students to, and those elements disappear. For fucks sake, if I want to be exposed to that shit, I'll come here.
Then give a better one
Well, the argument is over whether or not a large, representative cross-section of a poor, lower I.Q., violent country should be allowed to migrate into Western countries, not over wars or slavery. You're going to be unconvincing if you don't take a yes/no position on these issues.
Actually, it's exactly what happened before the war. Germany was trying to settle its jews in Mandatory Palestine via the Haavara Agreement. They settled tens of thousands, and even minted a currency with both a swastika and star of david on it for the settlement, but the agreement was broken at the outbreak of the war. Forcibly doing anything to someone else is violence
There's no way that's what they want. They don't want to have to move. Elsewhere in the world people have died over their right to not move within a 100 mile radius. People setttle down in communities with friends and family and moving can mean social suicide for many people which is worse than death.
Spencer's position demands violence, either through deportation or genocide, at the end of the day.
That should make it easier to debate them.
Are you talking about another video? Source please?
Obviously my answer is gonna be no. Who allows and want this people to enter? Not communists. Capitalism needs these people.
Except debating them only exposes more people to their ideas, which helps them gather more support from the American petty bourgeoisie (which is already radicalizing.)
Nono m8 i'm saying that I use the same argument when people talk about the curve bell.
Oh ok I gotchu fam.
Not so in America.
Then we're in the following position:
So, side with the neoliberal elite in favor of censorship in the name of anti-racism? That won't backfire in the future…
Yeah, but my point is "What do they have power in?" It's not power in a communist state/communist society (however things are defined). It's power within a society that contains extreme economic inequality, poverty and, for the most part, a free market. The sheer irony of radical leftists talking about capitalist hegemony from positions of significant established power within an institutional framework that's supposedly against them, educating and being funded by the rich.
Better version of picture.
You don't understand fam. You can't stop it, it's in the nature of capitalism. Only way to stop it is stop exploiting the third world. The way is socialism.
But anti-racism though! I can only hope that one day Holla Forums will think more carefully about why universities are filled with Communists and donors seem to have no problem with this.
America is a lost cause. It's going to become fascist within the next 10 years. The only thing we can do is harm prevention. Also I would align with anyone to prevent fascists from taking over. Neoliberals are easy to defeat, since no one unironically supports any of their policies. Fascists are a different breed. They are demonic and should be silenced and removed without mercy.
The postmodernist identitarians installed in critical theory departments at universities aren't communists, and we hate them with a burning passion. Read the board FAQ.
Who gives a shit? There are a vanishingly small number of Real Communists. 95% of Communists are identitarian-left. They certainly think of themselves as real Communists. Why might this be the case? Don't we have a problem if Real Communism is so easily co-opted into ethnic revenge nationalism with a brown face?
That's that not real communism
It isn't "co-opted." It is ignored. Idpolers have very little connection to marxist organizations. Most are actively involved in neoliberal "democracy" actually.
Don't we have a problem if NutSac is easily coopted into a handout for giant neocon/neolib military-industrial complex? What's needed is a working-class-focused ideology to specifically attack it, and whether or not the "communism" or "socialism" labels can be rehabilitated to do this isn't relevant.
we're coming, buckos
Who comes up with these location ideas? First Charlottesville, now Gainesville? Why does Richard Spencer keep going to these literally who flyover nowhere cities?
Probably has ties with organizations near there (or that can be there reasonably quickly and in numbers.)
You mean Nazbols?
The point is that a century and a half of socialist labor agitation has won real and lasting victories for the lives of everyday people, even if they end up corrupted and in need of periodic replacement. Petty ethnic squabbles haven't won anyone anything, other than splitting up the working class.
No shit. That's the problem, right?
Right, so why are so many organizations labeled "Communist" in fact just identitarian-left, or at least having a huge identitarian-left component? If you argue that it's due to bourgeois identity politics supporting a whole kaleidoscope of identities in order to prevent meaningful class struggle, you're basically agreeing with Spencer on some level.
This poses a real problem for Communists, because you will fall victim to another alt-right argument - alt-rightists argue that most PoC are more ethnocentric than western Europeans, so Communist movements especially in multi-ethnic countries are going to have a real problem with identitarianism.
Yes. That's why we say "liberals get the bullet too" problem is that no bullets are going nowhere. For now. We need to organize.
Spencer would agree with you that capitalism as at fault. Geez you Holla Forumsyps are dumb. Do you even knkw what he studied for postgrad? And do you say the shit he says?
No, I'm agreeing with you
Consider visiting your local university, you can find self-described socialist and Communist groups going on about Marxism, white supremacy, and the patriarchy.
Anyway, this managed to go off track from how Communists are going to formulate a positive argument in favor of diversity.
"Peaceful ethnic cleansing" is the exact phenomenon they accuse the government of doing through immigration. I.e. "anuddah shoah"
Yeah, as most fascist would, you moron. It's called getting your foot in the door. He's the head of a think tank, what would you expect?
Spencer was a socialist before he decided he could pull an ol' mussolini
I'm tired of this paranoid, low self esteem argument, you fucking shill. Racists have been debated and defeated a million times before.
How, when he's engaging in the same game?
Fascists haven't though. It's because fascists don't care about logic or facts. They just want to get their message out.
But how much of that is out necessity? There's a reason we have national liberation.
Right, so a gutless opportunist who cozies up plenty to capital. You're not introducing anything new.
Well, if you don't have a multiethnic country, the spectrum of identities you can have is a lot more limited.
Sure. Just for laughs, I want to see the alt-right invoke anti-colonial and natlib rhetoric against Jews.
Universalize this philosophy and consider the precedent. Nyway it's not like any have the power to affect any of this.
The problem with your second quote is you're wrong though. The researcher who discovered the double helix showed proof that there was a correlation between race/genetics and intelligence and was shunned.
They're class collaborationist, they've never promoted class struggle outside the framework of capitalism. There's a reason Hitler was the one in power and not Asser.
This is one of the strongest arguments: Mandatory diversity (including human rights arbitrage driving mass economic immigration) and mandatory monoculture are both monstrous, not because of the result, but because the means necessary to achieve and maintain them in any realistic scenario are utterly depraved.
The argument for ALLOWING diversity, is simply that any attempt to prevent it by force is unjustifiable by any possible outcome.
Yeah because he pinned it all on race. The old piece of shit should have kept his reactionary """theories""" to himself.
Communists can just argue he was a bourgeois racist who had a class/ethnic interest in preserving existing hierarchies and thus engaging in deception, see
of course the big problem with this argument is that you're basically agreeing with Kevin Macdonald on some level but with whites instead of jews.
What if the argument against diversity is that the new group entering the system comes from a hostile environment with factions proven to be malignant? Does one use a methodical system to introduce them gradually using vetting and character assessment or do we just open the floodgates and put the system and its people at risk?
It doesn't really matter how you dismiss neoliberal diversity rhetoric, diversity is coming and Communists sure as hell aren't going to be out there supporting deportations. We've had a whole fucking thread and "moral duty" is still the best argument put forward for diversity at the moment. Have to do better than this.
It wasn't "deception" is was just bullshit. Intelligence has long been linked to genetics. He made the completely unscientific leap from genetics to "race" and was appropriately shunned.
Thank you for trying to open up new angles of thought and elevate the discussion.
How do you know what I'm promoting? I'm not able to use my super cool unqiue one of a kind performative poltics flag. The fact of the matter despite their good work socialists, marxists and communists did not solve the social problem and that is due to the explicit assumption that we exist in a purely materialistic universe among many other things.
Asser was a confederalist aka succdem who also hated juice. The real problem with socialism is that you always aim so low. Always fighting petite burgeiose mannergerial types (who you need at least for a transitionary peroid) instead of the system of big capital which uses your creative destruction to fuel their machine.
Was it? Communists should be able to prove that this is the case and not get accused of Lewontin's fallacy.
He didnt even say it was on a heriditary biological basis. All he said was that there is different qualities between populations irrespective of cause which is neutral because it is irrefutable fact. That he got matyred for it is proof that lysenkoism is alive and well.
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For your sake, I hope you aren't white. You can't seriously hope to lead PoC in a revolution against white reactionaries and not expect to end up on the receiving end of it at some point.
HAHA this. Why isn't the current state of South Africa being widely reported in the media? Especially considering we already have a good idea how it's going to turn out thanks to the precedent set by Zimbabwe.
So why would you ignore cause?
Okay it's nice and all to discuss how to argue with fascists but that is sort of irrelevant. Spencer isn't going to be debating anyone he's going to stand there and spew his propaganda. The question is how do you effectively protest it. I think one problem is we've let the enemy spread the narrative that the left is against free speech, something that is widely cherished by most people. All the morons out there spreading the 'muh freeze peach' meme are actively helping them with this goal. We need to make it clear that what the alt-right wants is not free speech but freedom from opposition.
Well, the easiest way to protest it is to just censor it, which is what the neoliberal elite is doing. Are you going to go out and argue that The Daily Stormer shouldn't have been purged from the internet?
The next easiest thing to do is to just show up and call Spencer and his sympathizers racist. This has worked for a long time so I don't see why it would stop now, being a racist is one of the worst things you can be in our society. Dox them and make sure their families and employers know they are racist so they can be blacklisted from employment.
Most of the alt-right would settle for removing illegal Mexican immigrants from the US and stopping further third-world immigration, though.
No fam. At this point we shouldn't protest. Protesr is useful only if you have an alternative to the thing you are protesting. Otherwise we are just silencing people. What we need is our organization and our guy. We need an anti liberal anti idpol figure who'll get hosted and held speeches. We need to organize and present our alternative to the statuos quo
so Zizek? lel
anti-idpol just hasn't caught on among PoC.
Probably nothing interesting will happen tbh. Maybe a run-of-the-mill stand-off with a line of riot cops.
Zizek is too much of a joker (don't hurt me) we need a leader not a facade
Literally has never happened. SA is what happens when class collaborationist take over. In other words its proof that nazism leads to economic degradation and fun. Also continued virginity in white young men.
And it probably won't. This is the biggest problem with the left, most if not all of your voters are issue voters and don't fit into a cohesive base. PoC as you call them(which illustrates the fact that you don't really give a shit other than them voting the way you want) could not give a fuck about gay rights or any other bullet point on your agenda. If you asked the average black working man in Milwaukee how he felt about gay rights I guarantee you he would be indifferent or be against it as hip hop culture is staunchly homophobic, but he will vote left as it has been beneficial for minorities(lol at face value it has). One thing I have to give the left credit for is the ability to bring vastly different groups together under an umbrella and garner support, but in the end it ultimately backfires. Refugees from true Muslim countries will play along and back someone who "represents them" for only so long before they realize you don't represent their actual beliefs at all.
Well, revenge nationalism is one of the few things that can plausibly unite these groups, which is what the identitarian-left basically amounts to.
Silencing people that have a million cameras on them isn't something that you can really do. When protesters show up and cancel his speeches they are really only helping him spread his message that the left wants to silence him. This can only really work if the counter protest is so massive that it is obvious his views are the minority. Then the story becomes a story of solidarity against a fascism instead of one about a group of freedom hating leftists trampling on the 1st amendment.
Didn't stop Trump getting elected.
This is true. Right now any resistance only serves to uphold liberal democracy, not bring about socialism.
Causes are important, but not to the point I am making. Saying objectively true stuff, even stuff like material conditions making exploited populations have different qualities can get you in hot water.
The downfall of Zimbabwe's economy is largely attributed to the eviction of white farmers, even by reputable mainstream publications, and the fact that the government had no real plan after said evictions. The government was also extremely corrupt and considering SA has severe corruption issues and is considering a similar idea I think we all know where this is headed. Also how the fuck are you attributing Nazism to this? It's a black president doing a Zulu war dance driving the country to the verge of civil. For fuck sake there are a ton of blacks in South Africa that disagree with this buffoon. Read a fucking paper…..
No, you see we have to repeat the magic words at a greater volume for it to work
Could you pls distingush us extreme left from the mainstream left? You make us sound like if we care more about gay rights than workers and working class.
One model worked for quite a long time, multiple tries at the other didn't lol. Let us speculate which model of capitalism with a certain group unrepresented worked ahahahahahahaha.
Martyrdom is a feature, not bug to a christcuck tho
Only for the bourgeoisie.
Only then can one be redeemed of the sin of racism.
Non identitarian-leftists are an extreme minority and I don't see how this changes any time soon.
All you have to do is put forward a convincing pro-diversity argument that doesn't amount to a moral duty argument. The alt-right is a reaction to diversity. It shouldn't be that difficult…
Never because Richard Spencer is a deep state CIA asset intended to smear Trump, he's the nu-David Duke. What a coincidence, he came out of nowhere and his first famous act was say "Sieg Heil Trump" while doing the nazi salute coincidentally in front of several mainstream news outlets that were coincidentally invited to that event by him personally, including his close friend at The Atlantic.
I think in some ways protesting is insufficent, most protests only amount to only confined conflicts or scuffles separated from the observing populace. I think its far more critical to target the populace and proles during these kind of events the reason being that, for the most part, the alt-rights rhetoric is targeted towards their own and amounts more to masterbatory posturing then anything else. This leaves an entire untapped group of traditionally uninterested onlookers for the left to take advantage of who already don't agree and facilitate with the alt-right.
Okay the problem with the anti idpol thing is makes it seem like we don't care about the issues that minorities face. We should certainly care about police violence against blacks and working against it would make those groups be more open to our ideas. When it becomes a problem is when people start measuring others worth based on the oppression stack, which is a purely liberal way of looking at things.
So… this is big ? This is isn't the first time that Spencer gives a public speech, and why he triggered a state of emergency ? What this means ? (I'm no burger, don't know how this works)
Well, what are you going to do about the ones that cite Marx or Lenin and then cite Settlers in the next paragraph? This is a lot closer to how the identitarian left actually is, based on what I've seen.
again this whole discussion could be used by an alt-rightist against Communists to show the futility of trying to organize an ethnically diverse coalition politically around anything other than revenge nationalism.
This isn't the first time an alt-right event has triggered a state of emergency, which basically means state response (emergency services and the national guard if need be) are on high alert. Spencer has essentially forced himself on a university campus with the purpose of inciting unrest and it looks like it's going to work.
But it's not like police problem or "racism" is a problem indipendent from class. Problem is to teach to this people that there are no identitarian struggles, only class ones
You are the bourgeoisie motherfucker. The fact that we are having this debate on a network using computers illustrates that. The proletariat are the people that you don't want to be associated with. The marginalized members of society regardless of color. The poor and disenfranchised. This is the major problem with communism, it fails to realize that the proletariat usually support upper echelons of the bourgeoisie even more than the lower echelons. As long as you give them NASCAR or the occasional rap concert they are not concerned. Both sides are continuously attempting to garner the support of these people without real concern for them. If you think communism is the true answer then you are a naive fool. Show me one instance of a communist country that flourished for a considerable amount of time without multiple regime changes and the eventual adoption of a free market?
Let me get this straight, Spencer is doing this to show that he is the victim or something like that? And the state of emergency is to prevent someone to do some shit?
Meant for u
Well that would be reductionist way of looking at things. Every movement that wants to gain large following is going to have appeal to the problems different groups face, ethnic or otherwise.
Spencer is a provocateur, his primary goal is that people don't forget who he is. This is the point of all the bullshit marches and university events. State of emergencies are called if civil unrest is going likely to occur or is already occurring. I would expect a Berkeley/Charlottesville level reaction to this. You're right that it's not anything special by Spencer's standards but tensions are high and he's really pretty despised. So counter-protesters are definitely going to show up en masse.
*Or I guess in this case just protesters.
That's a nice way to say attention whore
What will be the consequences of that ? (Of course, based on speculation)
Worst case scenario antifa kills someone and shitstorm on us Best case scenario aut right kills someone again and shitstorm on them
what the hell, this is not a rally, why everyone here is treating this as one?
Yeah that fits too, but there's genuine political ambition behind his attention-seeking. He wants you to believe that alt-right sentiment is widespread and that racial tension is high. Both are true, but not to the extent necessary for his vision of the future to come to fruition. He needs to reinforce the narrative that the alt-right aren't insanely marginalized like they are for the movement to hold.
Well judging by the declared state of emergency that means that police are probably going to be active and present. Which means that many youtube "centrists" are going to get there wish and police are going to bash everybody's heads in.
That was meant for
There is almost certainly going to be a lot of people protesting him
Who's the guy in the first pic? Does he have a glasgow smile or is something else?
That doesn't make any sense at all. If these people were being oppressed, then they would be better off on their own, without white people.
Pretty sure that's the devil.
You don't know who the guy who got the Rosenbergs executed is?
No I work for a living, unlike Trump's supporters who are mostly petty bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie will be judged and expunged from existence soon enough.
No, it's what being rich and having tons of connections is like. Read his biography. He was born into a super wealthy Jewish New York family and he was friends with a mob boss as a teenager. His father Albert C. Cohn, was a member of the New York Supreme Court.
Hyuh hyuh. It's pretty funny when you put it that way.
He wasn't alone and he wasn't actually in denial. I know everyone wants to imagine that bad people all lose in the end, but reality doesn't work that way. Angels in America was fiction. In his last years he worked on his autobiography, and he finished it, so it's not like he died unfulfilled. He was 59 years old, hardly young.
I was mostly joking. The evil do indeed live forever or die satisfied.
Won't happen. Gville antifa are pic related tier. Maybe some random liberal or someone who's not directly affiliated with them.
He still died of aids. It's a pretty funny ironic end for a guy who wanted to have big gay orgies while being a big social conservative cunt bag.
It's kind of ironic, in the same sense that popes used to die of venereal disease. There are two standards, one for the rich and one for the poor. Whoulda thought?
Typical Holla Forumsyp retarded shit. Do you know roy cohn is? Virurently anti semetic and donald trumps mentor lmao not to mention donnie keeps a copy of mein kampf by his bed side table. Also literally posted content from the anuddah shoah twitter account lmao hahah but suree he's totalllly working for the kikes
tell that to his "beautiful jewish baby" grandson, little kushner
He's a tarbaby, stop grabbing at him
You guys are not handling this well, huh
Bitch, seriously? You realize Trump probably sucked his dick, right? Cohn's type was young blonde gentiles.
I've actually thought about this. I think if you're a rich fag it is actually to your benefit to want that stuff to be illegal. It means you have much more leeway in taking advantage of poor gays while if you're a poor gay you pretty much HAVE to sell your body or hide it if it's illegal.
Holy fuck dude thanks for the horrible mental image motherfucker.
There's a few out there who are beginning to see the obvious cracks in idpol liberalism. Hate to quote chapo trap house but they had a black union organizer on a while back who made a damn good convincing argument about how the Ta-Nenshi strain of woke radicalism doesn't fight to break down the differences between classes and races but just recreate them in separate PoC societies
You're far more optimistic than you should be.
the state of emergency accompanies a $500k check from the university to the police department and I think local law enforcement. Then our national guard on top of that. They are preparing for a riot/armed violence.
It's better than the resigned cynicism and stale irony that infects a lot of online left discourse.
I mean to say the state of emergency=national guard.
FL also has many violent, Spencer-sympathetic pigs.
It was a prank
This is just as bullet worthy as the uniform tbh, shit taste
Nah. They never are not even with police.
So when will a state of emergency be triggered by a lefty?
We shouldn't have to justify diversity.
Florida's an open carry/stand you're ground state isn't. The liberal pussies will probably get more than they bargained for this time if they pull the domestic terrorism shtick again in this state.
Please start shooting people Holla Forums. Holy shit one dead white woman was enough to get liberals to stop tolerating you. What do you think will happen when you start opening fire on crowds?
Spencer's nobody. Off the Mercers.
Cant wait for the trial to go ahead and the dindu nuffin driver to get off There will be a fuk heug chimpot lmao
You simple fools. Shooting him in the dick would be far more memeable.
Remember that Liberal boomer that shot and killed that other conservative boomer or the democrat lady that almost drove a republican politician off the road and then bragged about it on facebook and the baseball shooter or whatever.
No joke I think liberals have more balls to start popping off on their enemies than conservatives do. The right really is a paper tiger, a week after this Florida thing you're going to cry on camera about how violent liberals are like Christopher Cantwell did.
dont wait, destroy America now. now now now.
This makes me think that leftists who carry a lot of academic esteem could request the same platform at the same time. Most universities would probably choose a Noam Chomsky or a Naomi Klein over a Richard Spencer, if they were forced to choose.
Tomorrow is the day, Holla Forums. I think it starts at 2:30 PM. Watch and see what happens. We may need a cyclical thread.
Dropping another bump so you guys can see this thread. Watch the Twitter trends if you have a Twitter. I think something's going to happen here.
Leftist + liberal protesters are already out. USA today had a short stream. Probably more to come. I worry about what happens after Spencer gabs.
the nazis have plans to do flash demonstrations around the city
OP here, figured I'd bump instead of making new thread. I watched someone's stream of the event. Basically see what I expected, broad coalition of liberals + leftists, people wearing pink for planned parenthood, someone with a palestianian flag, chanting the same old "BLM" "No Nazis no KKK no fascist USA" (even though they are sitting in the middle of it?) Some black folx, lots of white wimminz, no one masked up or anything (I suppose sure FL police crack down on that in this situation)
These photos should be enlightening. Look at them fat piggies. Read the banner and laugh at Holla Forums
BAN ASSAULT WATER!!
So much for the intolerant left.
This is America, buddy. You only have rights if you can afford a lawyer.
He just called Russia an ethnostate. I thought he was supposed to be some sort of intellectual.
what a fucking moron
hmmmmmmmmm……….. …. if I didn't know better, I'd say righties don't read……
This is incredibly retarded, and the libshits are not fucking helping.
They're not helping but I think people overestimate the amount of damage they do. People aren't going to become white supremacists just because some liberals booed a white supremacist.
Of course, but they reinforce the "lefties don't want no free speech" argument. They make us look bad.
We need to counter this by saying the right actually wants is freedom from opposition. Just as the 1st amendment protects the right of the speaker to speak it protects the right of the audience members to boo.
Maybe because inviting a neo-Nazi to speak at your university sort of flies in the face of maintaining a safe and open learning environment for everyone who isn't a straight white dude? Jackass.
The problem we face, today perhaps more than ever, is that we lack a platform. I don't think memes are enough to deliver that message, they just shit up discussion. though discussion does fuck all
Sticks and stones, grow up.
That's true, we need one of /ourguys/ to spread this message. The only person I've seen try to counter this is Contrapoints and her video went down the wrong path entirely by claiming that people have the positive right to a platform and marginalized group need their speech protected. This is a particularly weak argument because white nationalists could claim they are a marginalized group because the majority doesn't accept their ideas.
Is Trump's daily abject stupidity and incompetence also designed by a CIA deep state coup against him?
The marketplace of ideas you liberals love is not meant to be a purgatory where we endlessly debate nazis and memeing ancaps because "they have a right to a platform". Some ideas are trash and have been debunked ages ago, if you refuse to educate yourself and still try to peddle them then I'm sorry, but academia has no time to waste on you.
I really don't think youtubers are going to help us, astroturfing and the huge reactionary part of youtube make things really hard for us. I honestly think we've reached a point where the control agencies and the like extort over the population is so great that we're all irredeemably fucked.
Oh, please. Richard Spencer speaking might not hurt people directly, but it sure as hell is going to stress nonwhite students the fuck out and embolden reactionaries even more nationwide. Thanks for reminding me that the chans are infested with zero-empathy white dudes, though.
Please, debate is passe. No one wants to do that need shit, they just want to shout down and "disrupt" (read: punch anyone to the right of themselves) the event. See that ACLU speaker who was drowned out by chants of "Liberalism is white supremacy."
The only reason anyone gives a dick about Spencer is that everyone who isn't an LGGBDTTTIQQAAPP ally is literally gassing Our Greatest Ally™ RIGHT NOW.
I didn't realize Original Sin was a leftist belief.
The actual fuck? Where and when did this happen?
Non white students in general stress me out and they're emboldened in their reconquista and my race's dispossession by Chicano studies in every university they step foot in.
Its good to know the government is on are side who needs to the proletariat when you have the bourgeoisie on are side.
I think its critical we approach those currently on the outskirts of the discussion, the alt-right is mostly talking to their own giving us the opportunity to extend to those already disinterested in them, as I said here
We need some online leftist group who have the job of collaborating in private to create and disperse easy to understand refutations of common right-wing propaganda of all stripes, along with maybe digging things up and researching etc. Maybe on a certain chat platform you all know I'm sure. Just an idea.
You have the state and all of its pigs on your side and you're still stressed? Wow, Nazis really are pathetic.
The only person who has the state on their side is you Paco.
this is your brain on meth
Do you really honestly believe that?
Wow, it might be people need to relearn how to ostracize opinions they dislike without turning into shrieking children. Perhaps if people are in the massive, overwhelming majority, they might even be able to ignore fringe opinions completely?
Maybe, just maybe, activist orgs could maintain a small number of coolheaded people specifically to maintain and distribute debunkings of these people (like the much whined-about New Atheists do against religion) instead of just jerking themselves raw maintaining their torture chamberes and sperging out incoherently at the slightest external opposition.
Thanks for infantilizing minorities and reminding us that SJWs have absolutely no respect for others.
I think someone has to learn about numismatics.
That'd be very useful, though those refutations are often a paragraph or so long. If we get skilled people on board it could be pulled off.
It sort of is actually. There's a quote from Frederick the Great the goes something like this "My people and I, have come to an agreement which satisfies us both. They are to say what they please, and I am to do what I please." The sentiment being free speech is fine as long as it remains only speech. This is as true in liberal democracy as it was for enlightenment absolutism. You can debate whether or not Marx is right, but start a revolt and you'll get put down by the military.
I could probably kick the shit out of most of those cops. That's sad.
My friends were radicalized in part by memes, and they're the main way they learn about leftism. Well yeah, but they don't just stop there, they just don't have the time to research this shit themselves. They have multiple jobs, multiple children, parents that need care, or homework to do. So they see these things in memes while browsing facebook and learn the words and names that they want to ask or read about when they actually have the time.
So I mean, memes aren't the central pillar of spreading leftism, but I don't think that they should be discounted entirely either.
Every aspect of the power structure is on the side of the mestizo invasion, from the bourgeoisie who need the cheap labor to the state who are okay with mestizos coming in to contribute to the social security system with fraudulent ss numbers to every university that normalizes deeply triggering and problematic hatred and glorifies mestizos and Chicanos and cultural enrichment. Proponents of white idpol like Spencer have to spend thousands of dollars and jump through legal hoops to say basically the same thing mestizos say every day in their state subsidized Chicano studies programs.
You are literally a race of scabs and are the bourgeoisie's favourite pet.
and liberals think we can reason with these people
The bourgeoisie love mestizos you have been their blunt instrument for wage depression and white disenfranchisement since the the 80s. Entire states are going into sanctuary mode refusing to deport you. Chicano studies departments spew hatred everyday and integrate it into their curriculum. You are a tool of the bourgeoisie all formal and informal institutional backing is in your favor.
Things will only keep getting worse and worse every decade.
The State and the bourgeoisie are indeed in favor of inmigrants, at least as a way to cheapen labor, it's normally the case. But why do you think we're tools of the elite?
Good to hear that about your friends. Though something that's been bothering me lately is that I'm beginning to think there's an important difference between leftist and rightist memes, the right seems to be much more aggressive than us, and the left seems to have more harmless and ironic sounding stuff. Like that "trannies, join the worker's revolutionary army!" we saw back then when there was that serving ban affair, I seriously doubt anyone took it seriously, but a few days ago a trumplet killed his parents because they seemingly were leftists. It's the work of memery, I'm sure of it.
I'm sure it's more complex than this, but at least from what I've seen rightist memes are about tribal solidarity and disparaging people or groups they don't like or disagree with. Leftist memes poke at perceptions of Communists in general or particular currents within it.
This. The Mercers need to fucking die.
Mexican anarchists are coming (cumming) for my sister!
So much for the tolerant right
Oh shit is that guy in the middle the what about the memes dude?
Speech is never "just" speech, read Austin and Searle linguistic theory.
Should've let him use those memes.
Refusing to invite ANYONE based on their ideology flies in the face of an open learning environment. In an academic or intellectual environment, diversity is not just strength, it's absolutely necessary. All students of humanities should be subjected to discourse with fascists, communists, white nationalists, anarchists, liberals, and so on. Otherwise you rely exclusively on strawmen and groupthink to judge these groups/