Kirkuk/Iraq General

PPK also spotted amongst defenders.

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Don't know if PUK or KDP but

This stuff started like two days ago, is the American media really this far behind when it comes to the third world?

Tbh I don't know, but shit started blowing up this morning when it came to news.
peshmerga guys crying on tv because their commanders bailed on them

Do you think this represents a chance for the PKK to gain a real foothold in Iraq?

I honestly don't know. Gotta read more on the intricacies of the Iraqi situation

Time to end this american puppet once for all and throw all and restore Iraqi national unity.


Shit has been boiling for some time after the Iraqi troops abandoned the north in their retreat against ISIS. If the PKK plays this right in lieu of this unprecedented aggression than they will win a lot of support. On the other hand the Iraqi government might be insistent on completely annexing Iraqi Kurdistan and this will probably complicate things in the region if not another civil war.
Kurdish protesters attacking the Iraq Embassy in London

Take off that flag.

Kurds? More like TURDS lmao xDDD

Do you think the PKK has the power to push back Iraqi forces? I mean I know the Iraqi army wasn't competent but they must have improved to an extent after isis.

Death to reactionaries.(death to reactionaries indeed)

Quads for dying K*rds


PKK have a presence in Iraqi Kurdistan, nothing like they do in turkey of course.

But most of it is controlled by the KRG

Somebody missed 2014 elections

Don't act like the KRG and Peshmerga haven't been receiving US support for decades.

Yes but the power vacuum that giving up kirkuk has created may allow them to gain more power. Just because the KDP and PUK are the biggest factions doesn't mean there aren't HPG guerrillas in Iraq.The KDP may be left looking incompetent and the PUK seem to be coming off worse.

wew lad

Confirmed /ourguys/

Why would it be? Are you suggesting the failure of Kurdistan's government will leave Iraqi Kurds looking elsewhere for leadership? I think this is possible but I would hope that the PKK wouldn't support an imperialist land grab like what the peshmerga did in Iraq. I respect them for liberating the city from ISIL but their attempt to incorporate the city into the province of Kurdistan is criminal. The city is 72% Arab. Arabs have greatly diminished rights in Kurdistan (For example they can't own land without a kurdish sponsor, similar to situation in Persian Gulf States) and for the city to become part of Kurdistan would be to bring Hell upon the Arabs.

Of course the KRG's leadership are bastards, I'm just hoping that much of the pershmerga will turn to the PKK if Iraq pushes further north and the KDP and PUK does nothing or fails to defend Iraqi Kurdistan.


Do we have any reason to think the Iraqis will push into Kurdistan proper? They're army is pretty weak and spread thin. With ISIL continuing to hold so much territory in the west I can't imagine they'd spend so many resources on some conquest of Kurdistan. Though the Iraqis have surprised me before.

some maps

I don't see how the ethnic division is really all that relevant. It's not as if the PKK is ethno-centric, helping the yazidis and others to form militias

If there weren't an ethnic component to this then we wouldn't be speculating if the usurpation of a Kurdish state by an Arab state will drive Kurds into the arms of a Kurdish Militia.

PKK isn't a "kurdish militia" though. They have turkmen and plenty of other of nationalities and ethnicities. I see this more as a communist group challenging the authority of the Iraqi government and KRG's legitimacy. Yeah there's an ethnic component but I again I don't see it as all the relevant

You may not think it's all that relevant but it most certainly is to the people in the region.

There is no side to support here other than the PKK. Ba'ath poster's insistence on killing all Kurds smells like a support for ethnic cleansing unless he means supporting the destruction of the Turkish boot licking government which I'm OK with.

if they want to be, sure

choke on cock

Isnt that your favorite activity trough? Chocking on USA sponsored dick?

I only call PKK a Kurdish Militia because it's in the name but I do recognize that you are right and the membership is multiethnic. Do we have any reason to believe the PKK is getting involved and "challenging the authority of the Iraqi government"? If we're just examining this as a hypothetical then I believe there's a scenario with a chauvinist motivation and a scenario with an anti-authority motivation.

Well they want too it seems

Yeah I don't doubt that, the PKK and friends have been able to reconcile ethnic differences pretty well so far

Considering their ideology and the events in Syria I seriously doubt this is chauvinism. You could definitely argue it's chauvinism on the KRGs part but we haven't seen any such thing from the PKK so far

A terrible end to a terrible day.

As much as I want the PKK to gain for this, I can't not feel sorry for the people of Iraq, it seems the ball just jeeps rolling.



So yeah seems the PKK are planning on fighting

I think it's Chauvinism on the part of the KRG to try to annex predominately Arab territory that they did in fact courageously liberate from the ISIL. I think a motivation for the involvement of some elements of the PKK in this conflict could be chauvinism but I don't even know if that's likely and I certainly don't know if it's actually the case because I haven't seen any involvement of the part of the PKK.

What level of authority within the PKK do these speakers have? Where are they speaking from? Beyond all that from the small anecdotes of civilian reactions it seems like the civilians of Kirkuk are welcoming the Iraqis. I'm just saying this based off videos I've seen on twitter so I'm not going to pretend that it's actually indicative of the real situation on the ground, but we can take it as a data point.

You're right to be skeptical, no one who's not there probably knows wtf is gong on. I'm just trying to find some info that isn't obviously bullshit.

yeah that's the ticket! that post sucks massive cock!


Peshmerga really are doing their best to ruin their reputation as fearless fighters, losing Kirkuk in 1 day of fighting what a joke.

Why would hay would you care about the PPK. Didn't you hear that they abandoned Marxism for socdem?

what a terrible meme

They abandoned marxism for communalism

This is was a surprise attack no? The Iraqi Army has learned a lot.

Tankies are just mad that they don't love their daddy no more


I hate to break it to you, but that's what communalism effectively is. Humanism is liberal idiocy. There's a reason why Bookchin failed time and time again to build a movement around himself like Bob Black. His ideas just weren't radical. Thus why nationalists love them.

This is the exact same sentence that you made above.

read a book

Confirmed for illiterate

Is there a political PKK affiliate in Iraqi Kurdistan? If so this could lead to them sweeping elections in the KRG. An alliance between Iraqi and Syrian Kurds would be a huge boon for democratic confederalism.


PKK has existed in iraqi kurdistan for a long time, but outside of them there's the PUK which are defacto allies of the PYD

I have a feeling hardcore Bookchinites don't read much theory. Which is precisely the way Bookchin would have wanted it I guess (thus why no one liked him.)

That's right



What I'm saying is that if you think creating a dual power is somehow a social democratic ideal then you've never read any theory related to the concept, Bookchin or otherwise.

No such thing. You don't know what either of those terms mean

self managed capital based around the town hall is just social democracy with the states role put onto the town hall instead. These town halls would be a dual power to the already existing power structures. Hence it would be dual power sucdem.

By what metric is municipilzation "Self managed capital"? It's a form of economic planning not market based.

It merely moves the ownership of capital to that of the municipalities.

By creating production for use? Nigga what are you even talking about

Unlike the USSR, municipalities are completely at the mercy of and accountable to the workers

Communalism is what happens when you think that "democracy" == "socialism." It's hilarious to watch these little experiment collapse in on themselves. This experience in Iraq should force the Kurds in Syria to show a little humility when dealing with Assad (the head of the legitimate government in that region.)

Great! But worker self managed capitalism based around cities is still capitalism. Capital is merely put under the control of the municipalities which are controlled democratically. Capital is still capital however whether it be controlled undemocratically by an owner or democratically by a city.

Ur a faget

Are you even from here bucko? What have you even read by him that gives you the impression he supported markets or maintaining the commodity form?

There is no capital when producing for use. I don't know what's so difficult to understand about that.

I don't understand your definition of capital

Jesus fucking christ, if I didn't know any better I'd think that was something out of fucking Tetsuo: The Iron Man.

But that's not true. What if one of your "democratic" workplaces decides that they won't do what the central government says? What if they decide to start selling their produce to some foreign country at high prices, making the workers of that factory rich while the country itself suffers shortages of the good that factory produces.

If each city takes on the role of owning capital and each city can independently produce from each other then this is capitalism. The independent producers of commodities would be cities instead of what we have now. It is simply city owned, self managed capital. Voting doesn't make it any less capitalist.

You can't own capital if capital is none existent m8. What is your definition of capital? If things are being produced for use then there are no commodities. Just because municipalities (essentially soviets to use more familiar terminology) are the base of power does not mean no planning of production beyond the municipal level, it just means that political power is expressed first and foremost at the municipal level.

Should the bookchinites ever have a "government" that would be represented in the UN or whatever, the most power theyd have is suggestion, theres no agitation from the top down as far as I am aware.

But capital would be existent if all that is done is move the ownership of capital from independent producer individuals to independent producer cities. Tell me where capital ceases to exist in this transfer of ownership

Remember, the Peshmerga fled Sinjar in the night because they were spooked as fuck regarding the Yazidis.

I'm not sure how that was at all relevant to what we were talking about. A communalist "nation" or "government" wouldn't even be part of the UN, instead it would probably take the form of something Apo suggests: a world wide demcon organization that serves as a sort of dual power to the UN.

This discussion goes nowhere if you don't provide a definition of capital

Just because planning begins at the municipal level does not mean it ends there. It's not as if there is an equal dispersal of resources across the word. Planning just begins at the municipal level, as well as political power. The "Confederation" is where this data and political will be coalesced into "centralized" planning, but this confederation has no power outside of whatever the municipalities decide. I still don't know what you refer to when you speak of "capital"

Value directed towards production. Communalism does not seek to do away with independent producers and because of this the value form will continue to exist and because of this so will capital.


Well damn, when I saw the Iraqi civil war going hot again after the referendum, I didn't think it would be so soon.

And if each municipality has a say as independent producers and the confederation has to do what each independent producers say then it is just capitalism organized differently than it is today.

The point of a confederation is that municipalities use it as a means to cooardinate production. The fact that they do this out of self interest instead of because it is imposed upon them does not mean it ceases to be socialist. The idea that you have to a centralized bureaucracy dictating everything is revisionism

That is the road to a fragmented society. Why would you want to break up society along local lines so people become more loyal to their "municipality" than to the nation at large.

I thought the Kurds were in favor of independence, of establishing a single, unified inseparable Kurdish state? Where did all this weird localistic ideology come from anyway?

If the municipalities produce independently from each other then it cannot be socialism i am afraid as the law of value would continue to exist. I don't care how coordinated production is if it is still capitalist.

Please read it.

Are soviets "breaking up society"? Nation's are incompatible with socialism.

Do you even understand what I mean by "coordinated production"? My entire point has been that no producer is really truly "independent" because they all rely on each other for production. Again, you do not need a bureaucracy to mandate production

How do you plan on organizing Marx's stateless society when we reach to higher phase of communism?

I never said bureaucracy is needed.

Then what are you talking about then?

You certainly need a bureaucracy to distribute scarce resources.

It would be nice if something like Cybersyn could be developed for the DFNS.


B-but civilian casualties!!!!

Based Iraq
Saddam looks down upon you today
and he smiles

man, he looks tasty
also kinda reminded me of terminator



bad week for Kurds

International man of mystery Qassem Soleimani strikes again!

Talk of the town is he engineered the deal with the PUK. Seems like he CAN keep getting away with it.


nigga what

Read Marx. Socialism is about abolishing commodity production and markets.

Socialism existed before Marx, nerd.

you need to abolish commodity production to achieve a stateless classless society, retard.
Marx proves this if you actually read him, brainlet.

Yeah, it's not like Marx spent years showing just how markets and commodity production are incompatible with socialism and nothing but petty-bourgeois idiocy.

From Qassem's wiki:

Tell me about Qassem, why does he wear the beard?

haha Barzani what the actually fuck are you doing?
t. PUK

I like how pro-Barzani types have been praising the KDP Peshmerga for staying on the front and criticising the PUK for making an agreement with Baghdad and withdrawing when the KDP Peshermga can't fight for shit.

Even though if not a huge fan of Communalism or Bookchin, I'd rather they switch their ideology / tactics instead of just following the same old outdated Marxist-Lenininsm.

Barzani doesn't expect anything past the original Iraqi Kurd border. It's a long way to Ebril if Iraq and PMU try to go for it.

What is it with Middle Easterners and throwing shoes at people. Why the fuck are shoes the go-to weapon for them?

It is seen as disrespectful; feet and anything associated with them is seen as very dirty and rude.

Pretty sure it's some weird cultural thing, like the the dog thing or the left-handed thing.



The Levantine fears the shoe.

Kirkuk has some nightlife
Also not sure how reliably but his seem important if it is

This as well, not sure hoe reliable again

So the first link is not Kirkuk but Khanaqin

Can you tell me what's going on? Who are the PMU? Only seen them mentioned recently.

Popular Mobilisation Units. All I know is that they are militias that are mostly shia (I think) I hear accusations with connections with Iran flung around. I'd tell you more but I'm no expert. But they have been working with the iraqi government against ISIS.



Why live?


On a slightly serious note, who isn’t supported by Israel and America in the region anymore? It’s almost like they start conflicts, back every side in it, and then cackle as the whole region goes up in flames.

If they chugged along stagnating just a little longer the world wouldn't be doomed

People over analyze the US and Israeli role in the Middle-east anyway. The Iranian-Saudi regional cold war is if anything a greater factor in all of it. Russian and US interests in the matter would be a side note if they weren't major powers.

Didn't the last ME cyclical thread die in under a week?

Yes because despite what the mods want. People prefer SDF general threads. It’s on the seventh non-cyclical SDF thread.

BO's anti-"imperialist" autism will not be denied

I would personally drop barrel bombs on 10,000 orphanages before I allow someone to criticize a neoliberal from a literally who political dynasty.

and here dies another non-rojava cyclical.