Belarus

From my understanding (and I am by no means an expert), Belarus is essentially what happens when an ML state "gives up" while not fully "reforming" into a liberal democracy. Functionally it has nothing to do with the socialist movement at this point, though it retains much of the imagery.

Essentially when Belarus went independent, though some high offices like the Presidency went to political (and pro-west) newcomers, pretty much every other major government position was still being held by members of the previous Soviet administration with very little about the structure and function of the state actually changing in that time. The aforementioned newcomers try and do what they did to Russia (allow free market vultures to take everything that isn't nailed down and run), but it becomes unpopular enough that, come next election, someone like Lukashenko makes it big by promising to stop the damage and "return" the state of affairs to pre-independence status quo.

He didn't really accomplish that, but he did help to retain what was left of the state ownership of industry and some of the political apparatus of the previous Soviet government. That doesn't necessarily mean it's being put to public good or anything; quite the contrary, as Belarus' track record with worker's rights post-independence has been notably trash. Belarus is essentially set up to be lukewarm ML style state capitalism (and not even a particularly good interpretation of it at that) with all of the flair but none of the revolutionary pretext.

Consistent anarchist view tbh

stalin was an enormous mistake

Nobody believes Belarus is socialism, but if we just go with that idea of a state quota in industry as a measurement how socialistic a country is (it's retarded, but let's just assume it) than Beralus is indeed the most socialistic country in Europe, mabye together with Norway.

My apologies, Mr purist, but we cant all afford to be ultra dogmatic leftcoms. They're not perfect, sure, but they're far closer to socialism than what we have in the west.

Don't bother, he's a Yugoposter, he isn't interested in orthodox socialism, he just wants every employee to be a shareholder and that's somehow socialism

"Marxism"-"Leninism" in a nutshell

(you)
Nice job misquoting me

what do you think soviet bureaucrats did?

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"Monarchy" isn't describing a mode of production or even hierachy besides one person

No, but monarchy does necessitate the existence of a leisure class which itself is only made possible by a mode of production that is decidedly not socialism.

If you're seriously going to argue that monarchies can be socialist I'm not going to reply.

"Monarchy" is a funny way of saying "practical degenerated worker's state with a popular, elected chief executive" but okay sure, whatever floats your boat. Keep clinging to the delusion that "real socialism" can be accomplished with silk gloves.

That point was about Norway which is a hereditary monarchy.

Its a Putinist AKA neo-neo-liberal shithole
its led using the same shit late stage Brezhnev era economic policies though

You claimed Russia and Belarus were oligarchies though, which is patently not true as there is a centralized economy

all the former s.s.r's have been american tier capitalist states for a long time
russia basically is a oligarch state and belarus the same

I claimed Belarus was an oligarchy, and it is. I didn't say Russia was an oligarchy though, but I'm going to right now because it totally is.

What did he mean by this?

Oligarchy is a system where corporations act on their own behalf in a kind of nobility. What's happening in Russia and Belarus is that the corporations are nationalized, and Putin and Lukashenko are using them to act on the behalf of the working class. It's not perfect, but for now it's the most practical form of socialism we have until US hegemony can be destroyed. Once that's over and done with, then your ridiculous purism might have a point.

Ah, yes. All those corporations they had in Ancient Greece when they coined the word.

No, that's not what oligarchy means. It means rule of the few, and in the 21st century this is generally applied to countries where wealth or political power is densely concentrated in just a small few people. In Russia and in Belarus this is absolutely the case for both wealth and political power.

In neither country is more than 50% of the workforce employed in the public sector. In Russia it is 30%, in Belarus it is 40%. In both countries there are very many privately owned, massively wealthy corporations that operate independently of the state. You can see this here which conveniently highlights which ones are state-owned and which are not.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_Russia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_Belarus

And no, Putin and Lukashenko are not using them to act on the behalf of the working class. They're using them to enrich themselves and their cohorts like any other capitalist leader would. Since coming to power Putin has in fact privatized many companies, and the Russian Federation are planning to privatize many more. If he was making a serious effort to act on the behalf of the proletariat Russia would not have 3% of their population homeless while there are perfectly good empty homes for them.

Yes, the Russian Federation is practical socialism and everything is the Great Satan fault. If you disagree you're an ultraleft purist.

I understand some tankies are having a very hard time coming to terms with the fact that the USSR is dead and Eastern Europe is capitalist now but get real, dude. It's been 26 years.

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yep, actually talk to someone from there
/thread
sage

it is tbh

This is why tankies get the bullet too, they are edgy red liberals.

This is the saddest position ever, clinging to the degenerated wreckage of the USSR as it slides further and further away from anything realistically resembling a real movement. Autistically hoping that only if global capitalism (i.e. just the USA and probably Israel) just magically collapses on its own, a bunch of corrupt, nepotistic patronage states will transform themselves from above back into Actually Existing Socialism. Yes, this is a totally realistic idea and everyone who disagrees is just a traitorous leftcom judeo-liberal utopian.

Actual quote.

/ourguy/

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As Belarusian, I can say that it is indeed shithole. Minimum wage is one of the lowest in Europe, and Lukashenko's idea of fighting unemployment is introducing the NEET tax. Shame that our opposition is full of incompetent generic neoliberals.

The NEET tax is honestly about as illiterate as you can get.

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This is what tankies actually believe.

The US doesn't like Belarus so it's anti-imperialist and must be supported. Belarus is also the most socialist of the ex-USSR states.