how exactly do we fix this shitty meme? it's even worse when they justify their delusions with "theory"
He fell for the "transitional period" meme
U T O P I A
infantile leftist detected
not a DOTP then is it? if it is the rule of the bureaucrats
only if the state is a DOTP it could be called socialist state.
show me how to acquire new capital to industrialise without surplus extraction
enjoy the civil war and eventual collapse
define "surplus extraction"
every society is going to have surplus production regardless of how it's extracted.
under a socialist mode of production the productive output of said society is equivalent to the consumption of said society, no surplus is created beyond the immediate necessity (reserves, insurances, etc)of such surplus.
By surplus extraction i mean that the state takes a piece extra out of production to sell on the global market to reinvests in socialised productive capital (thereby industrialising).
civil war will be favourable
A transitional period of some sort is absolutely essential.
Modern capitalism has such a tremendous amount of momentum and complexity behind it, that it cannot simply be washed away overnight.
Suddenly shifting to a non-capitalist system means that you have created a number of practical problems that could have been easily avoided:
1) Thousands/millions (depending on the nation in question) of workers in professions that require a capitalist system (accountants, bankers, stock brokers ect) are suddenly unemployed.
2) International trade stops, resulting in both countless tons of goods rotting in your ports and goods (such as food) no longer entering your nation.
3) The sudden lack of the internal capitalist movement of goods results in mass starvation until the production, distribution and transportation of goods can be organised.
4) Wealthy specialists flee your nation in order to protect their standard of living.
Resulting in critical pieces of infrastructure (hydro and nuclear power plants for example) lacking the specialist skill required to safely operate or even maintain them.
5) The sudden 'culture shock' of no longer living under the yoke of capitalism frightens and upsets a great deal of people, resulting in mass discontent.
A state that has a transitional period of even just five years would be be able to avoid all of these problems.
Not to mention that it would be on a much better footing for the re-industrialisation campaign that every western nation would require.
tacit endorsement of agricultural socialism, reactionary crap
Industrialisation is necessary to field an army to defend the socialist country from imperialism, to lift the masses out of poverty, to free humanity from toil.
Never associate with Tankies or even bigger authoritarians (Nazbols, Asserists) ever. They just ruin the left.
Maybe not, but it is necessary to establish communism such as Marx saw it. He talks pretty explicitly in the Critique of the Gotha Program about the need to set aside social labour to expand the productive forces - read, expand industry.
this is literally what MLs claim though
I don't disagree with the notion of DotP, I just don't delude myself into believing the soviet union was a DotP
nice ideology, thinking that every country needs to be industrialised is still thinking within bourgeoisie nationalist ideology, unless you see past this, you are forever lost
a thought experiment for all of you:
Think about China and Mongolia, China is a fully industrialised country, Mongolia isn't, what would happen if Mongolia became part of China? is Mongolia suddenly an industrialised country with full revolutionary potential? What would happen if the Gobi parts of China declared independence, did that area of the world suddenly lost all revolutionary potential, just because a bourgeois concept known as borders?
Don't be foolish, thinking within the nationalist dogma doesn't help the revolutionary cause in any way, if we were to abolish borders and private property then there would be no necessity to industrialise every single area of the world, as the current industrial centers are more than enough for the industrial requirements of a post-capitalist society
if we were to follow your line of thought, about every country having the necessity of being industrialized, then why simply stop at the category of "country"? "hy not claim that every province must be industrialised? we can keep going and going until we'd reach an absurd point.
The same thought experiment can be applied but in reverse, if we were to abolish all nations, then the world would already be industrialized, there is no necessity for every area of the world to become an industrial park, if every area of the world has access to existing industrial parks
A transitional period is needed in order to reach global communism.
Obviously we need a dictatorship of the proletariat for that. That means the worst totalitarianism for the ruling class and the most radical form of democracy for the worker.When we have the recources of the world we will be able to build communism/ socialism, otherwise we are going to be destroyed by imperialist powers.
It is also very unlogical to assume we could implement communism directly, the overthrow of capitalism is the start of a new society, social order, no, a world pretty much. If we look at history we can see how capitalism has been created, how it has evolved, communism wont be that different.
"Thinking that every country needs to be industrialised is still thinking within bourgeoisie nationalist ideology," he types smugly, enjoying all the benefits of a fully industrialized society.
Has anybody established global anything!? No!?
Then stfu. Fuck absolutes. Global SEX. That should be reached.
inb4 banned for unstated rule again
Quentin Daiquentin I know you were rejected 4 times by women around your age but you won't fuck yung Rosa Luxembourg, children are not good gfs/bfs, she is my daughterfu and I protect her. Get over it.
Go read Lolita or something weirdo.
Depends. What does this meme consist in?
I think myself a pretty big optimist but jumping straight to full communism seems pretty utopian, I mean damn every process takes time and jumping straight to full communism would have a few backlashes.
basically the party will take the role of the bourgeoisie and nothing will change
No offense but… I am detecting a strong amount of lack of reading…
Maybe it's just my inner leftcom.
A cross between market socialism and social democracy makes a better transitional period. The whole idea if increasing state power before abolishing the state is full on autism
This is what tankies sound like when they say shit like "worker's state" and "anarchism doesn't work, we need a revolutionary vanguard"
Wait, this is the meme you don't want us to fall for?
Not an argument