I don't understand why people hate Christopher Columbus so much, what did he do exactly? I only got told he accidentally found the Americas when initially he was trying to prove whether or not the Earth was flat. How is that such a bad thing?
Why do people hate Columbus day?
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hmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder………………….
It's dumb virtue signaling. From what I heard he was kind of a dick but blaming him for the oppression of indigenous people is really retarded. If you wanna go down that path, you should start hating Cortez or Pizarro.
He did seize the land for the Spanish queen though, de jure, by putting up the flag. So there is that.
This can't be real. Even liberals could tell you this guy was an asshat.
Also, it was known since antiquity that the Earth was spherical.
Columbus is a reminder that civilizations need to adapt or die, for better and/or worse. He's no different than any other person in the history of humankind who walked away from his tribal lands in search of understanding of his world and new, potentially better, places to live.
Liberals are at war with history because bad things happened in the past and it makes the whole meritocracy meme look like a joke.
Here’s what Engels has to say about it. TL;DR Disregard petit-bourgeois moralists with who whinge about muh slavery and muh genocide
Totally incorrect. Humans had already discovered the Earth was a globe in antiquity. In fact, that was the whole point of Columbus' enterprise - Europeans wanted to reach Asia so they could circumvent the Muslim control over all trade coming from there, and Columbus' idea was to sail around the whole Earth and approach Asia from the east by sailing west. Of course, this idea was fucking stupid as the distance was way too far, but he lucked out because there happened to be another set of continents between Europe and Asia.
But people do hate those idiots.
Dude was so brutal his own crew were horrified by his actions. The accounts of the first european and native encounters are actually very interesting because they speak on favor of the idea of the noble savage; Tainos did nothing wrong besides not nuking Europe
Yet the Aztecs certainly didn't, nor did the empire of the Incas. Applying this kind of romanticized image to an immense variety of peoples inhabiting many different places across two continents is a fucking joke either way you spin the narrative.
Aztecs were fucked up, but what did the Incas do?
They were an imperialist conquering state. A pretty good one by contemporary standards, but they were hardly peaceful noble savages who lived in harmony with the land and were a friend to all life.
Aztecs and Incas were not savages tho
I know that. But they didn't do human sacrifices by cutting out someone's heart on the top of a pyramid to appease the sun and literally started wars just to catch people they could sacrifice, at least not to my knowledge.
Because people are fucking retarded and blame an explorer/trader for genocide of locals committed by people he didn't even belong to (Columbus = Italian; Conquest was done by Spain, Portugal, England and in minor part the Dutch) nor represent simply due to having skin color in common.
You were told bullshit by ignorant teachers. He was intending to go to India to establish new trade routes for spices with the locals and theorized he could find a quicker route than going around the cape of Africa, hence why redskins ended up being called "Indians" themselves.
What the hell do you ignorant amerilards even define as antiquity nowadays?
You're also utterly full of shit, the first to suggest as much was Copernicus in 1616, whom was censored, the second Galileo Galilei like 15 years later, whom was forced to take back the claim by the Church, which he did to save his life, still refuting with a phrase that became famous "Yet…it moves", referring to heliocentrism rather than everything revolving around Earth.
Incas weren't, Aztecs absolutely were monstrous savages.
The oldest civilization in America is the Caral people. Their particular feature outside of making Pyramids in America 2600 BC is that weapons haven't been discovered in the area, and it is known that the culture lasted between 500 to 1000 years. Imagine that: the most developed civilization on the hemisphere at the time was a pacifist civilization dedicated to trade and the arts. I'm not romanticizing shit nor implying Native Americans lived in a pacifist primitive communism in antiquity because of their race; I'm implying that it IS possible for people to live in such a way, and that something about complex societies let us where we are now. The incas are also an interested topic because of their civilization lacked slavery, private property, and was immensely rich. It was also a command economy so it should be a mandatory topic of study for tankies.
Honestly, dismissing any native american topic as virtue signaling SJWness is denying story of how humans developed in a continent isolated from most of the rest of the world.
Savage in the 18th century sense of 'uncorrupted by civilization'
Bases mother fucker, he stuck it to those piece of shit savages back in the day and still makes sJEWs cry like little bitches.
He found some Caribbean islands, he never landed on mainland America.
Completely false, people knew the earth was round for at least a millennium and half before his voyage. What Columbus believed was that the Earth was smaller than it actually is, which he was wrong about.
Those aren't what's bad is how treated the natives and colonists in his colonies, which outside of mass murder for natives, and incredibly harsh punishments for minor offenses for colonists, also included selling native children as sex slaves, and introducing syphilis to Europe.
He is completely indefensible, there is no reason for the US to celebrate him, and he's only popular because of 19th century popular culture. He was hated by his own crew and was rightfully a footnote in history before then.
They're mad that they don't have big Thanksgiving feasts in October.
Have you ever fucking heard of the Aztecs? That civilization was 1000x more brutal than any European monarch.
Thread should've ended here.
Lately I've been seeing a lot of radlibs on fedbook complain about colombus.
White guilt nonsense coming from liberals. Although, Colombus did basically establish the slave trade across the transatlantic in the name of christfaggotry, but really how can you expect the average American to know this? They honestly think this guy invented America.
Same reason they protest Thanksgiving; because they think people who celebrate it are inadvertently promoting the genocide of native Americans. When the European settlers took hold in America, they were dying pretty frequently because they didn't understand how to live off the land since the geography was different. A local tribe struck a deal with them to eliminate a rival tribe in exchange for helping them get on their feet. The mission was a success (after all, guns vs. bows & arrows isn't much of a fight) with the rival tribe eliminated they celebrated their victory with a feast, and that's how we got Thanksgiving. Of course they don't teach you this in school, the school rehearsal version that they force kids to reenact every year for adult entertainment is that Europeans settled and instantly made BFFs with the natives and they had a big feast and were bestest buddies 5ever. Of course then comes along the imperialism and genocide and etc. afterward that nobody ever mentions.
History is important but don't use it to push an association fallacy. SJWs are fags.
It's just kind of nonsensical that we celebrate him here in the US. He didn't found the US, he didn't land in what is now this country, he wasn't sailing for England, and he wasn't even the first European to come to the Americas.
I said the Tainos and the Caral were noble savages (although I wouldn't call Caral savages tbh). There's no reason to put all natives in the aamebcategory since they were distinct people with different levels of development, environments, etc.
What I'm saying is that if they could have noble cultures then the idea that people are naturally predisposed to fight each other to the death doesn't hold. Of anything Marxists should be supportive of that idea.
Savage in the sense of sacrificing children and throwing them down an altar while drinking their blood.
Did you know not only was Columbus a cis white male, but not a single member of his crew was a PoC trans woman, not even pre-op?
That never happened.
He was genocidal and all that, but his exploration and exploitation was a historical necessity. Obviously we shouldn't celebrate him per se, but its thoroughly undialectical to pretend things could have gone any other way. I honestly can't tell if all the liberals and idpol socialists talking shit about him seriously expect that he might have done anything other than what he did. Was he supposed to arrive at the Americas and politely attempt to coexist?
Necessary for what? Later colonialism that birthed one of the worst capitalist empires in the world?
Putting aside all the P R O B L E M A T I C stuff or whatever what's the point of celebrating someone who never stepped foot in your continent? At least with religious holidays there's a "universal" element to it
Celebrating Columbus is literally right-wing virtue signaling. There's nothing to celebrate. Might as well be one of those unironic "always respect the flag and the troops!" fags and call not doing it virtue signaling.
Columbus Day celebrates the establishment of and the next centuries of settler-colonial life in the United States. This is literally its stated reason, the only modern thing about this interpretation is the use of "settler" or "colonial", where in previous decades/centuries the hegemony of this culture would have been assumed. Because the settler colony was genocidal, and the basis of its existence was land theft, racism, religious and cultural chauvinism, and slavery, people now think these centuries ought be no longer celebrated.
I'd like to point out that Columbus wasn't even the one who discovered land; it was one of his crew mates.
I meant Americas, not the United States. It's a United States holiday but it celebrates colonization more broadly.
It might have something to do with the fact he ordered the native people he first had contact with to mine gold for him to bring back, and if they didn't obey his orders you know, he would fucking cut their hands off as punishment. And this was frequent since, there was a gigantic difference in culture and language.
People on his ship also raped them.
Generally, Columbus was a real son of a bitch, like all colonialists.
Anyone who denies this denies the brutal reality of Colonialism.
The myth that the Roman Catholic Church believed that the Earth was flat is a complete lie invented by Protestants. There are medieval paintings depicting a round world.
Columbus and all of his crewmen were in deep debt. Reaching America was a last-ditch effort to recover any sort of wealth to bring back to the Spanish King. They brought back slaves during their very first return voyage. This is why some Spanish and English people appear to have Native American features (Zionists claim that those people have "Jewish ancestry.")
Columbus Day has, since it was established, used Columbus's voyage to mark the beginning of European colonization of America. It is/was not merely a celebration of the man, but a celebration of the New World colonies.
It's basically a romanticization of North, Central, and South American colonialism as all responsible because he stumbled upon the New World. Which is true, but like you said, the man isn't important. It's a holiday celebrating how crucial his discovery was, after all, no Columbus, no America. So we should be both happy for his actions and the subsequent rush to colonize. It's a holiday celebrating the destruction of so many cultures, in exchange for the fortune of the colonizing power.
If you don't see why indigenous people in America, among others, would fucking hate this holiday for everything it represents, you're probably really just an asshole.
Of course they're mad, they lost.
How old are you dude.
That's assuming way too much. Some other Europeen would have figured out it's there and it may have turned out same or better or worse.
Do you think reality is a video game.
I was just making a statement on what the holiday celebrates, not what might or might not have historically happened.
Western culture lost, for it was revealed it was a ravenous colonizing machine with no regard for life outside profit, legacy, and worship for exploration; no more noble than any "savage" you claim people here might lionize.
The plundering of the New World is one of many examples that showed just how base European culture was at the time. Spain in particular.
You dumb-ass motherfucker. Did you really post something refutable buy the first paragraph of a Wikipedia article?
Take your insecurities elsewhere, Eurotrash.
in his various roles he oversaw great cruelties and genocidal killings of a million or more natives of the various regions he was responsible for.
Evil in has always changed depending on the time and the place. We like to see good triumph over evil, the absolute enemy – be it a race, country or setting – has always changed with the values of the times.
At one point in time in US history, as disgusting as it may sound, that enemy we overcame for a "brighter future" was the savage. The "uneducated and uncultured dullard". The Native.
Times have changed, and so have our values. This isn't seen as right anymore. And there's no triumph in knowing that Columbus' cruelty came out the victor. This is why remaining indigenous people in the US, and people who agree with them, want to see this holiday commemorate all who died as victims of European colonialism within the United States, not cherish the colonialism anymore. I agree with this.
sounds like the average american to me, guess it didnt go so well
The irony is palpable isn't it.
Columbus was literally trialled and jailed for his crimes against the natives. Even during his time people thought what he did in the New World was fucked.
That's what makes celebrating the day even more macabre. Many Americans have become less moral than even the Spaniards in defending this misguided celebratory holiday.
Do you really think might doesn't make right?
Yes. I don't think it does. I think what's right is usually the least destructive option in the grand scheme of history. If all is suffering, what is might worth than any more than excuse for the misguided men of past years.
Moralizing might as the arbiter of all of history is a denial of the analysis of history, it is to simplify the mistakes and gloss over the success and all the nuances in between into a game of winner and loser.
And that is not what history is meant to tell future generations of students interested in it. It is shallow, and most of all, it is weak.
I mean aside from subjugating indigenous peoples to genocide and torture as well as conducting acts of imperialism, not much.
From an egoist perspective, it should better be said, "Freedom follows force." To imply without incurring the confusion of "right" being "morally justified." You have the freedom to do whatever you can so long as you can impose your force upon the world. Prisoners lack force, so they have no freedom. While you are free to do what you have the force to, this doesn't mean no one will try and stop you.
Egoism isn't a great interpreter of history tbh.
I wasn't trying to use it like that. Columbus' actions are directly contradictory to my own, as I would like those people not to have been killed. To me. I'm not trying to be moralistic about this seeing as how morality is a spook.
It isn't as much about morality as it is in other people's morality in the future of Colombus' discovery. Suffice to say, the fruit basket Spain gave the New World was not a kind one.
History is about consequences, it could involve morals, it could not. It's never a game of might. It's a game of what happened, and we can learn why today is systematic of everything that happened yesterday. It involves people being misguided and moral in the past and the present.
Analyzing history is more complicated than morality being a spook, morality has to be considered in context of people's actions.
Aztecs were cruel and hated by all their neigbors but the spaniards were way fucking worse
You don't know what you're talking about
So consider this. Europeans settling the North and South American continents spawned (or is at least correlated with) rapid, significant development of medical technology that will, in the history of the planet, likely save more people than there were natives killed. Of course, it also produced weapons that killed more. In the end, though, if we don't glass the planet, more people's lives will have been saved and improved than lost to colonialism.
ITT: Holla Forums being so anti-idpol posters deliberately downplay just how much of a scumbag Christopher Columbus was.
Fun fact: Barely a year after Columbus reached modern day Hispaniola the natives started killing themselves by the thousands cuz they couldn't take the rape, genocide and sexual slavery the crew put them through. Columbus also wrote that the Taino were peaceful, swam miles out into the ocean to give him and his crew presents and would be "great slaves" cuz they were so trusting of the crew.
There ain't shit wrong with admitting he was a genocidal maniac, comrades. Just saying…
Is that pic actually from the 19th Century or is it from the 21st and supposed to highlight the hypocrisy of European colonialism?
It must be because the board is full of dipshits who get their radical kicks in reacting strongly against anything that social liberal types' reactions.
A bunch of dipshits
It's from 1899 and is specifically commenting on the Boxer rebellion I assume from the Chinese looking dude.
Fuck Christopher Columbus.
Fuck the new world colonies too.
That blue should be green, fam
FUCK EVERYTHING MY DUDE
THIS TBH FAM
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting user
I don't think hobbling slaves so they couldn't run away from their death march through the silver mines was too drastic of an improvement. If at all an improvement.
What is even happening in this thread
I don't know why this fuck gets a day to himself when James Cook, Charles Thomson, Alfred Wagener, etc. get jack.
It's because Columbus was Italian. Just a quirk of history.
Because he was a dumb ass. He grossly underestimated the circumference of Earth and his ships would have died from lack of supplies if the Bahamas wasn't in the way. It mistaken the Bahamas for India even though he never passed anything like Indochina.
Columbus committed atrocities against what he thought was India which was Europeans wanted to trade with, meaning if actually discovered a new route to India, his actions would have created a war between India and Spain or at the very least a embargo against Spain by India. It is amazing Spain didn't hang him as soon as they learned what he did, just to ensure India didn't get offended.
It was because of pressure from the Knights of Columbus and Italian-Americans "muh heritage" types. Columbus was chosen as the namesake of the order presumably due to his pivotal role in the formation of the American colonies as well as his Catholic faith, making him an ideal figure to base outreach around.
Italian-American are fucking dumbasses tbh
Why didn't they push for a day of a Roman Emperor like Emperor Vespasian day? Why wouldn't they more proud of the feats of the Roman Empire then Columbus?
Roman Emperors don't have anything to do with colonialism. It would seem quite abstract indeed to celebrate an emperor who's at least 2000 years removed from the contemporary period and who precedes the catholic faith, something which was much more important to Italian identity in the past.
The point of the holiday was to mainstream Catholicism and Italian heritage at a time when neither was considered very American. Dead emperors don't aid in this. Columbus did, for all of the stupidity that surrounds it.
Look tankie my dick is like a python, how long you ask? Half a yard long, longer than the width of a large pizza or just shy of the length of the foot of a twin bed. That's the creed and code I live by and here you are defending a monarchist, imperialist, slave runner. Pitiful.
What is more American the Roman Emperors that the founding fathers jerked off to?
The founding fathers didn't jerk off Roman Emperors that much really, they were Enlightenment figures. They much preferred jerking off Cinncinnatus, Brutus, and Cicero.
In all honesty maybe with the right propaganda a Roman Emperor could have had the same effect but they found Columbus to be more convenient and I would probably agree. Ancient Rome isn't terribly relevant to Italians today and it really wasn't then. At least in terms of what their identity consists of.
If I'm reading this thread right, Columbus was basically an anarcho-monarchist who BTFO of all the anprims in the Caribbean
it was the french revolution that jerked off to ancient rome, not the burger one.
Yes. How else were we supposed to achieve the material basis for socialism?
The material conditions for socialism already existed among some New World peoples (namely, the Inca). The arrival of the Spaniards and other colonial powers permanently disrupted and destroyed what could have developed from that.
WE MUST DEFEND DPRK AGAINST WESTERN IMPERIALISM
Colombus Day celebration is fine
Columbus was always a subject of the Spanish King who gave him the ships. He was the captain of his ship (even though he was almost mutinied) so you can't really call that anarchism.
The Native Americans were extremely bloodthirsty imperialists who showed Columbus a room full of gold and introduced him to chocolate. Anarcho-primitivism couldn't have achieved these.
The eternal spainard
This has literally nothing to do with whether or not the Earth was known to be spherical. Kill yourself for being retardedly ignorant and being arrogant enough to actively spread your incorrect knowledge to others.
i can't stop laughing
Castillan propaganda to smear the Indigenous Non-Corporate American Workers' State.
It was a stagnant, primitive socialism. They had a good system, but they weren't reaching any new heights. Realistically, how would that ever have developed into the kind of socialism we want?