Don't know if there's a thread on this (crtl+f never works on Holla Forums for me). I spent two weeks here and had lots of politically charged thoughts during my stay, who wouldn't? Anyway, since MOSSAD is no longer on my IP, we can talk.
I'm convinced it's a facist democracy, and heading towards levels of theocracy as zionists move in and more left-leaning Jews move out.
What are your thoughts?
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Better picture
The Jewish bourgeoisie are our enemies, not as Jews but as bourgeoisie. The Jewish worker is our brother.
It is literally a rogue apartheid state and if western governments (or the UN for that matter) had any interest in world peace or justice it would have been destroyed decades ago.
Zionists are maybe the ones that are taking the most advantage of the holocaust, really sad that they are making the jews look bad.
Sounds like birthright. Did you get laid, user?
Not a birthright, the whole concept of birthright is abhorrent and disgusts me. Same with "birthrighters" themselves. And although I believe some Jewish people are the greatest radical/critical thinkers of all time, I will never reproduce with a Jewish person and contribute to the zionist ideal. Plus it's incestuous and biologically bad for continuing proneness to disease (especially for Ashkenazis, i.e. me).
I'll jog my memories and get some observations going from actually being there.
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Israel is a fascist shithole
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Heh I knew I'd get called out for that. Let me expand: facist state running under the guise of a Western democracy. More correct, no?
"The non-Jew thus ranks as an animal, has no property rights and no legal rights under any code whatever. " Judaism
Haha rightists never fucking change.
I'm glad you made this thread OP, we occasionally have threads about Israel and that means I can chime in to talk about it since I live there all of my life.
It will never be a theocracy because people would never allow it. As for Israel being fascist, I wouldn't call it that. It's a dysfunctional democracy with a cabinet of clowns and the Prime Minister doesn't even have a cap on how many years he can be in office, but it's not fascism, or at the very least towards its own citizens - you can criticize it, you can shove an Israeli flag up your ass as an "art performance" (some theater actor did that) and you can organize against state actions, not very fascist I would say. Although Arabs in the West Bank have obviously a different picture, tho Israeli Arabs seem to be doing fine. All in all, from my point of view, it's an alright country to live in.
I don't know how true that is. Ever since Trump got elected I met two socialist American Jews who made Aliya because of how materialistic and capitalistic American culture is. Although there is this meme of young Israelis leaving to Europe because there are no economic prospects in Israel, there was a hot wave of those in 2012 trying to get to Berlin. I don't know if it's still a thing or how bad it is, but people definitely talk as if it were.
Still, Israel is very much a right leaning country, both in popular opinion and official policy. Tel-Aviv is perhaps your only respite and even then it's largely liberal idpol central rather than having any meaningful proper Leftist social hubs. The Left-Right dichotomy in Israel is largely political with very little economic consideration, at least when it's addressed to the general public - there are even far-right parties with a succdem economic policy. Speaking of, Succdem is the only Leftist tendency in Israeli politics, the only other one being the Commie party which is virtually ignored completely by the general voting public although being popular among Arabs.
To be frank I don't believe Israel would survive another 20-30 years, 50 tops. If I cared enough to vote I'd vote Lieberman or Bennet into office to accelerate this shit.
Liberal tier
If I may ask, what were you doing in Israel?
Christ, words mean nothing.
he's an anarkiddy what do you expect
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hmm…
Can someone give more information about the demographic shift towards the orthodox tendencies that are on the way? Is it true for one? Is it likely the orthodox will integrate with more modern tendencies/society along the way?
What about the wildly opportunistic and open settlement building they now do now that an unapologetic Zionist is in white house?
wew
reproduce with whoever you want
negation of racial politics, not anti-purity politics, user
how accepted is outright racism in Israel? Or is the understanding of racism itself the same as in the west in general? The racial politics of Beitar Jerusalem and Lieberman's connections to it for example.
Fascism can be Democratic
even though Israel is not at all a Democracy
'no'
It isn't, however there is a little loophole because "nigger" (Kushi) is the same name of the Kush people (Kushim). So essentially you can say nigger without any racist implications. Tho I'll tell you this, people here don't have a problem laughing at niggers, including me. When it comes to Arabs it's usually much more overt but still most people are decent about it and don't take it kindly. Every time there's a racist incident (with nay group really) caught on camera, it makes the news.
I would say 100%, Israel is a Western country in every sense of the word.
But since we're on the topic, let me expand on what I mean by Israel being a Western country. There is this sort of understanding in Israel that everything (literally, from culture to ideas to consumerism) that happens in the USA will happen/arrive in Israel later, so this Western quality that Israel has is more of an accumulation of mimicry through the past decades put into hyperdrive with how social networks are now. This is of course not unique to Israel given the American cultural hegemony on the world, but I'm inclined to believe Israel is one of the countries to be affected the most because I have actually no idea why, maybe it's because of how young the country and the Israeli culture is. Maybe I'm just pulling things out of my ass and this is all the result of modernity as a whole, but regardless Israel is essentially an emulation of the USA on a smaller scale, to make it simpler. I always say that everything that happens there will arrive to us after a year - and it does! - in some different configuration.
I'll give you a very concrete example: You know how Pepe "became" (with the help of liberals legitimizing it) a symbol of the right? Well apparently this caught up with the right in Israel as well, on certain pages on facebook. The irony is that they copied the entire narrative of reactionaries but erased the antisemitic elements. So now you have pictures of Israeli/Jewish Pepe fighting guldural margsism.
I don't care about Israel, I'd just like the free vacation.
The existence of israel is the triumph of Hitler and the failure of western enlighten values.
The idea that jews are a separated race that deserves a homeland is not different from the idea that germans are a separated race and need a homeland. Western jews belong to western countries because they're not different at all from us.
The existence of israel is the biggest hypocrecy in the history of man.
STOP BEING ANTI-SEMITIC
Anyway, speaking of Jackie Mason (who is a disgusting staunch right-wing, anti-Arab/Islam, Zionist who used to support Meir Kahane and once canceled a show because a Palestinian-American was supposed to be the opening act), I'm surprised this guy hasn't gotten as much public scrutiny as Geert Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Salman Rushdie, or been assassinated like Theo van Gogh. Though I think it's unfair to compare these people with each other; Wilders, Hirsi Ali, and Rushdie aren't THAT horrible
Thanks for dropping by user. I think what you're saying is true and an apt description of things there. Your last line is interesting to me, what will destroy Israel in your mind? It's pedestrian political analysis that the US has it heavily protected.
I was visiting family who is too old to leave the country and visit me.
Surely state propaganda and hyper-nationalism are also contributors.
why are we against Israel when literally every single group that's been against Israel has been antisemitic and fascistic(including Holla Forums) ?
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social democracy at the barrel of a gun isn't socialism faggot
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I always knew Leftcoms were sionistas at heart
I shouldn't be laughing at this.
wait really? what about groups that were against abolishing slavery, do you think they were possibly anti black??? :00
My thought is that the jews don't deserve the right to exist as the human beings.
Yes they are sterilising the black jews. It really make me think.
why not though.
all Democracy means is tranny of the majority
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You are not bright. Fascism is not democratic in any way.
Jews should be treated as the non-persons because they are leeches and it is their fault that they destroyed the USSR.
pls stop social nationalist nazi memer
Slavic controlled USSR is better than Leech controlled USSR. Russia belong to no one but Slavic people.
go back to reddit fashy retard
Shame on you for turning your back on the nazbol brothers TRAITOR!
We should not trust the jews to avoid getting backstab.
I Fucking Hate Israel.
I hate it just as much as I hate the USA.
Lets be fair here, Israel haven't even finished one genocide yet.
They have killed millions people before so it is not their first time.
Good
it's a colonial apartheid state that murdered my grandma and grandpa for being arab and refusing to leave the land they've lived on for literally their entire lives
its prettymuch just nazi germany 2,
except that this time the west supports it
its literally a bunch of american and some european jews that bought arab lands from the british colonials and then moved there.
while they whine about
the only reason they havent been holocausted again is because they have america and europe in their pocket
racist apartheid white supremacist state
go read some more dauve you psued
Yeah know, religion is one hell of a drug. Out of all the places to chose a holy land from, they chose the fucking desert. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone was trying to fight over Switzerland or Okinawa, but why the middle east of all places. Fuck jesus, chose a profit who was born and died somewhere more comfy.
It's true though. 51% can vote to kill the 49%. Is THAT "freedom"?
why don't you read marx you illiterate
Thinking the Jews and Muslims are in conflict over where Jesus lived is a real galaxy brain take
Well on the their way to Gog and Magog. Praise G*d.
That hyperbolic example doesn't really accurately represent the problem of the tyranny of the majority that de Tocqueville meant when he wrote about it, it's more just in general the fact that in any democratic system minority demographics will, as a matter of fact, be represented unequally compared to a majority demographic, due to the simple nature of the relationship between minorities and majorities.
besides, i was laughing at him saying tranny of the majority anyway
The thing about living in Israel is that when you talk about war you're not thinking hypothetically, you're just waiting for the next one, like football season.
Our new defense minister, Lieberman, announced that the next time we're in a war Israel won't back down until the enemy is defeated i.e. it's not gonna be a walk in the park operation like last time in Gaza where we pulled out and both sides declared victory, or the more brutal Lebanese wars. And while eliminating Hamas would be tricky, Israel's real bane is Hezbollah. They're on par with us technologically and tactically, their soldiers are on par with our best units and probably surpass us on average (since most of our soldiers are 18 year-old conscripts serving their mandatory time while theirs a professional army). Next war will be a bloodbath. Add Iran to the mix and Israel won't last for long.
But even if we ignore all that, there are Israel's economic prospects which seem to be dwindling, young people are leaving for better shores, the infrastructure here wasn't initially built for a large and still growing population, the government is inefficient etc etc. On its own that isn't enough to end a country, but there's also the fact that there's a large Palestinian population being ignored, a population that also keeps growing in the West Bank. Annexing it means giving them citizenship and effectively turning Israel into a post-Zionist, post-Jewish state, keeping the status quo is just sitting on a boiling lid. Sooner or later consequences will have to come around, and it won't be pretty.
A two state solution would be ideal, the only problem is that neither of the sides (Hamas and the Israeli government) is willing to yield anything. Maybe the Palestinian Authority is open for talks, but even then our media and the pro-Israeli media around the world portray them as not willing to compromise. For example, last time the two-state solution was discontinued was because the Israeli Prime Minister (for embezzlement iirc) as imprisoned and talks were essentially cut with no new initiative from the Israeli (current) government, and yet the narrative is as if the Palestinians simply refused. On top of that the right here throws at you all sorts of excuses as to why a two state solution wouldn't be possible ("they will never be peaceful", "they will never accept us" etc). But the most crucial thing that hinders any such peace initiative, as I see it, is the fact that there's a sort of a "Lebensraum" plan that certain pundits express and is even on the agenda of candidates like Bennet. In short, it's settling areas in the West Bank, pushing the Arabs into clusters, declaring that now since there is a majority of Jews we have a right to claim it as ours and effectively annexing it all while giving Arabs some self-rule in their clusters. That is why the current establishment wants to keep the status quo, to prolong the settling, I can't find any other rational explanation.
This board supports Israel just like comrade Stalin did. Zionism is a progressive socialist movement. Anti-semites go back to Holla Forums with all the other reactionary fascist scum.
I wish that were the case, Holla Forums. Unfortunately Israel had a turn towards the USA in the early 50s and we became their proxy. That is why the USSR supported Arab states in wars.
fascism and democracy are not mutually exclusive, democracy and communism are not synonymous. please walk out into the real world once in a while.
well if you consider the political ideology, as far as it can be defined, instead of considering it as a more generalised phenomenon, then look no further than the words of Mussolini himself (or rather his payroll'd scholars) in the Doctrine of Fascism rejecting democracy and defining freedom as the freedom of the State or nation
It borders dangerously close to a facist theocratic ethno-state. I talked to some Israelis but they are all in denial about it.
They weren't wrong and you are a fag, read these:
Obviously Mussolini's Italy wasn't democratic, that's not what I'm saying.
Also he was most likely referring to liberalism rather than just democracy.
Either way, if you act like democratic right-wing populism isn't a possibility then you're just opening the doors for Fascism to happen. If you look at the works of people like Franz Neumann you'll see that Not Socialism was very much a "democratic" phenomenon in that it was popular among the majority of German people at that time.
This still didn't stop nazis from erasing other parties and that meant that if popular opinion shifted (in times of crises it does a lot) "lel you can vote only nazi now" and that is definetly undemocratic. Fascism is essentially rooted in eliminating every possible threat against capitali$m
But the popular opinion didn't change.
Hitler was still popular even after the war. It was only after a few decades of American propaganda that we have the German ideology of today.
arab clay
lol y'all need to check out the Antideutsche.
populism/popular opinion =/= democracy
and when i refer to mussolini i mean specifically the doctrine of fascism, in which he specifies democracy separately from liberalism. and besides, democratic right-wing populism doesn't necessarily mean fascism either, there are more nuanced traits which fascism can be identified as having that make it a distinct political phenomenon from generic right wing populism
haaretz.com
timesofisrael.com
israelnationalnews.com
middleeasteye.net
jpost.com
haaretz.com
alaraby.co.uk
This is you.
Fuck i accidently posted some links in the same line so it screwed it up. Sorry about that.
Totally not biased about Israel Palestine conflict.
tl;dr
regardless it's not a fascist state and it's far, far from a theocracy, too many secular people won't allow it
Racism does not mean fascism, friend. And it's pretty irrelevant if it's racism in the public sphere and not in the law.
Although it's a question that has surfaced recently because police does target them, according to them.
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It is when it's enforced by police.
Why is Israel part of UEFA and not AFC?
t. JIDF
arab teams refuse to play vs them
it isn't, and the fact that social backlash can come into effect is proof enough.
tl;dr It will get better and it looks like it's already on that track
But since you brought up Ethiopians, I can tell you with all honesty that they've integrated into Israeli society 100%. You know how this whole debacle started that race was risen as an issue? Some Ethiopian soldier got beaten by cops for refusing to turn around and insisting to continue on a street that was blocked (not sure entirely what happened either, but I'm not condoning what they did to him), this sparked protests in Tel-Aviv. Ethiopians came en masse and protested day and night for a few weeks. Burned cars, flipped cars, blocked roads, beat up random pedestrians that walked by, the same kind of chimping you see in the USA.
Now, what part of it is proof that they integrated into Israeli society 100%? Because after about a week or so, Bibi came out in front of the cameras, shook the beaten boy's hand, said some words, and the protest shrank and dispersed. People forgot about it in no time, as if it didn't happen in the first place. This is the spirit of the Eternal Israeli in display: Be outraged, demand change, the government (Bibi) comes out and says something, get bored and go home. This is exactly what happened with the big protest during 2012 (or was it 2011?) against literally everything that is wrong in this country, from the high cost of living to low standards of work in some sectors. This is a cynical population that knows nothing will change, and the Ethiopians embraced that fully.
This isn't the first time there are race shenanigans in Israel. Back in the 50s there was discrimination against Mizrahi Jews and riots broke out after an officer shot a Mizrahi man. The question of discrimination was then brought up, and I'm not sure what happened afterwards but by the looks of it discrimination and racism towards Mizrahis completely disappeared. There was also racism towards ex-USSR migrants who came in the 90s, but that also died very quickly and essentially non-existent today. Still, Ethiopians were here longer than the Soviet immigrants and still experience racism, I think it's only a question of time as the new generation of Ethiopians (and other Israelis) will grow up together on the same cultural background. You probably don't know this but most Ethiopians are first generation migrants anyway, so unlike the Soviet migrants who had (to marginal but still some extent) a preexisting community to fall back on, Ethiopians came into a foreign culture. But frankly it's not an issue anymore, they are fully involved in Israeli culture, especially the younger generation.
p.s. here's the video of the kid getting beaten
But it's so wide spread. Besides I never said it was fascist just close in some regards
The thing that absolutely infuriates me about Zionists is their hardcore denialism. They're Nazi/Slav tier when it comes to saying "nope" at irrefutable evidence. I've yet to meet a single Israeli who would acknowledge the problems with Israel without doing their very hardest to try to downplay them.
hmmmmmmm really makes you think
Fuck Israel, and fuck the Jews
They are the worst plague to currently live on Earth
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I'm betting it's the same lurker who used to false flag as a ypg poster every time this topic used to come up
oh boy, the weekly thread about Israel, I hope there's no weird double standards, conspiracy theories, or anti-semitism anywhere in the comments like every other time we have these threads!
greenantifascism.blogspot.com
Isreal is an abomination. It will be eliminated by the revolution one day. By jews and arabs will help to tear it down and slaughter the Israeli bourgeoisie. Deal with it.
Why not a one-state solution?
Israel want Greater Israel so no.
By wish I mean integrate the Palestinians and respect their rights in the state of Israel-Palestine.
you know thats how you catalyse despise for people like you
tl:dr:
no. what would basically happen is israel would just occupy the rest of palestine and then enforce a little bit of affirmitive action, but thats it.
Or you'll do what. Hit us with the shit cannons?
Fairly Nurglesque
are you trying to provoke us to call something out?
Sage in every field for le jews meme.
I know this thread is recurring but like I said, my ctrl+f never works on 8ch well. I wanted to share some insights/thoughts from my time on the ground, as I believe the social and daily lives of the people in the state can provide much more illumination than just discussing the state in theory ( for example, as an Israel/Palestine issue solely). I did want to see where the thread went/where leftypol was at before that.
With that said I'm surprised about the positions posted here: "if you're against Israel you're an antisemite and not really leftist". I knew Mossad had young internet divisions spewing propaganda all over the internet, but I didn't know they were active in leftypol. Shalom young tools of the state!
What do you mean CTRL+F? Are you manually searching every single page?
I don't even understand what these threads are for. Are there Israeli and/or Jewish people here who feel conflicted about being leftist and anti-Israel? If so you need to get over yourselves since this board, and every other leftist forum in existence, is crawling with burgers who recognize and oppose their own state's imperialism. You don't see american leftists shitting up everywhere going "AMERICA DID NOTHING WRONG IRAQ DESERVED IT GREATEST COUNTRY OF ALL TIME"
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Hmm, why do people focus so much on Israel when basically every other country in the region is just as bad, or worse? Is there something about Israel that's different from those other countries? I wonder what it could be!
Well, no. The vast majority of Israeli Jews are MENA, they're not white. They're basically there because they got pogromed from the rest of the Middle East and North Africa in the middle of last century. While a lot of their leaders are of European descent and there's discrimination within Israel against some people who are darker, the actual racial composition of Israel Jews is about half part-European and two-thirds being MENA, the crossover being due to intermarriage.
Do you have the same level of hatred for "Israeli bourgeoisie" as you have for Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian, or Turkish bourgeoisie? Because if your first thought is "death to Israel" instead of "what helps workers" then maybe you might wanna reconsider your position, lol.
I don't think anyone is saying Israel is explicitly good, merely that it's *completely the same as any other state in the region* and pretending it's especially "bad" and weirdly focusing on it is a big part of that anti-semitism that needs to be called out.
Immediately assuming "have a nuanced and historically accurate understanding of the middle east" must necessarily mean being pro-Israel probably says more about you than it does everyone else, hey.
tl;dr:
The difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism can be understood by applying the "three Ds" test.
1): Delegitimisation. Does someone say that Israel has no right to exist, but doesn't make the same distinction of other nations created in similar circumstances, such as other Middle Eastern nations formed out of the former Ottoman Empire?
2): Demonization. Does someone's criticism of Israel present it as a uniquely bloodthirsty, evil, racist and imperialist state, despite the same things being equally or better applied to other countries in the region?
3): Double Standards. Does someone assume Israel is especially unique in it's badness, when it is really the rule rather than the exception? Anti-semitism selectively ignores that every state in existence today is equally “artificial,” and that all have been accompanied by violence, dispossession, and exclusion. Rather than a radical left critique, this is a liberal exceptionalist narrative which can only rest on a historical double standard.
It is clear that there is room to critique zionism, or even take a stance that is anti-zionist, without falling prey to anti-semitic narratives. Leftists, of all stripes, must make stringent efforts to ensure that criticisms of the Israel state do not incorporate any of those three points. It's not rocket surgery.
im sure it has nothing to do with the fact that theyve been promoting perpetual war and aggresively opposing arab development since the day they occupied the land
so your point is that aslong as most of the people you import into your colony on foregein soil arent white its ok?
are you racist or something?
antisemite.
hehehaha
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If you aren't shooting reactionaries then you aren't a real socialist govt.
Are you that Sionista that used to annoy people with the YPG flag and Galil chan?
but jews in israel are reactionaries, they escaped from a revolution against their internatioanl clique