How do you argue for anti-fascism?
How can we argue for not letting fascists, racists, etc. not get a platform?
How do you argue for anti-fascism?
The point of anti-fascism is to prevent fascists from organizing so that when capitalism enters yet another crisis they will not be able to seize control. Fascists don't care about free speech or minority rights. They don't care about rights in general.
Carl Schmitt argued that every political document such as a democratic constitution identifies an enemy, in the case of modern democratic ones fascists or more generally those who would, if allowed to gain power, do away with the rights identified therein. Therefore denying fascists the right to organize and gain power is simply an act of self preservation.
Also free speech, at least the retarded absolutist version liberals turned into a club to browbeat anyone who disagrees with them, is a fucking meme.
I know this is hard for amerifats to understand, but there are other places than America. In these other places, fascists can pose real threats to radical leftist organization. And in these cases, anti fascism becomes a necessity for survival and not a LARP
Who needs an argument when you have Democratic porky donor money?
except in social contexts like what is talking about, anti-fascism is so pointless. no marxist should support or argue for this nonsense, antifa is a defense of liberal capitalism at best.
if you have to argue that fascists are bad with someone, they're an enemy, not a person to be debated with.
I dont the enemy of my enemy is my friend and i support them.
Their ultimate goal is to turn "degenerates" (people who disagree with them) into corpses or second class citizens so what antifa is doing can be justified as preemptive self defense.
They do more warm than good in the end, but its still something
And those alt-right scum deserve a punch or two, to be honest
Liberals are just one step away from embracing fascism (especially right wing liberals.) Antifa helps to keep fascists from becoming more popular and accepted in popular culture.
I don't think genocide should have a platform at all. Fascists cannot be debated.
There will be a permanent state of war, a world where every country believes they are the master race cannot be peaceful if you see the big others as subhuman monsters who are hellbent on your destruction for no real reason.
So you're going to protect the Constitution by getting rid of the First Amendment? Am I understanding this correctly?
Honestly that sounds like a fake quote. Why would he be talking about how to stop his own program?
It's him boasting about how NS got started and, admitting plainly, that liberal society should have strangled it in its crib. If liberal capitalists won't do it, we'll have to.
The only way to effectively, complealy destroy fascism is with National Hezbollah.
Leftists are enemies of the Constitution, though. The First Amendment is to be cited to allow us to agitate, and then critics are to be eliminated when we are the ones enforcing the law. It's pure power, and leftists need to think in these terms.
I wonder who is behind this thread
How could you possibly know?
The only reason the Federalists included the Bill of Rights in the first place to the Constituition was because the more radical, liberal Democratic-Republicans demanded concessions to what they believed to be authoritarianism in Fed. policies.
The Constitution is a document sucking off landlords of the bourgeois state. Hamilton should rot in hell. Why don't "righties" understand that?
Neck yourself, cryptofascist.
This. "Fascism" isn't a meaningful threat in the US, not now, not ever. There are times and places within the 1st-world, the most recent of which I wouldn't brush off with a chuckle being 1980s Greece, but America CERTAINLY isn't one of them. Now, yelling at anyone you dislike and pretending they're fascists, crushing any objection with unfalsifiable "durr hurr dunning-kruger thazz something only a nazi wud say"? THAT is a real threat.
Rights are spooks you fucking moralist ragamuffin. Instead of protecting the constitution, why don't we protect something that actually matters, like our lives? Instead of a piece of paper.
Honestly trumptards deserve to be punched solely for how much of faggots they are. A shitty religion worshipping a frog named after a wordfilter from fucking World of Warcrap, making cancerous pinoshit "jokes" and calling anyone who disagrees a "commie"? And that's not even including all the violence and murders they've committed in the name of daddy trump.
Just bash the fash IRL, as long as they're forced to hide their power level we're safe.
Same could be said of any movement, and punching someone (and failing to knock them out) isn't exactly brutal.
Ironically, the threat of leftist brutality is precisely what brought Fascism and Not Socialist paramilitarism into being.
Turning "degenerates" into corpses could be argued to be pre-emptive self defense, well, had they not started attacking first.
They're truly repugnant people.
It's your responsibility to understand your speech may be meant with violence if it advocates for racial apartheid or potential genocide afterwards depending.
If you don't understand this may end with violence for you, then yes, you deserve to be punched to knock some sense into you.
Fascism isn't inherently genocidal, and there are genocidal ideas within Marxism (populations that haven't progressed enough dialectically etc).
They are probably one of the greatest recruitment tools for the right. As a right winger myself I've noticed our popular support has massively shot up recently. Pretty much any non-leftist I've met who has encountered Antifa suddenly becomes sympathetic.
most of the u.s. population holds fascistic ideas and sympathies but doesn't know it, because they don't know what fascism is. people literally worship the flag and demand people stand at attention when the national anthem plays. look at the reaction to those footballers protesting recently. americans worship the military as a vanguard of "culture," "values," "tradition" and their "way of life." anticommunism is basically america's state religion. there's a cult of strength that celebrates the strong dominating and crushing the weak. these are all fascistic in nature and identical to the milieu of nazi germany or franco's spain. chomsky talks about how the u.s. has been lucky to have not had a charismatic figurehead a la hitler who could mobilise and energise these elements and undercurrents that exist in american society
americans are a sick people and their potential for real disaster shouldn't be dismissed outright
Defending property rights going into the future will require a genocide, though it will not be called that. You're still politically naive.
That's a rather subjective thing. Should we all go around punching those we find to be "repugnant" ??
It would be much better to come up with really clever and technical arguments against Fascist positions rather than simply threatening them with violence for not agreeing with you.
After all, it's not exactly like people are going to welcome the abolishment of religion and private property with open arms.
It's not just fascism that will be defending property rights and claiming part ownership of all things on earth and in the universe is hardly opposition to the notion of property, if anything, it is in support of property. So the battle between the radical left and the "fascist" becomes one of a property dispute between less people and more people.
None of this need be inherently genocidal beyond the objective of the radical left to abolish the "genos" out right, or at least, modify the parameters to include the entire human family.
le marketplace of ideas maymay xD
Gang rape happens too, does that make it acceptable?
Don't be so quick to bash it. After all, where did you get all your shit from?
if you think most rightists are swayed by "clever arguments" against their positions, you really need to get out more
Getting raped and getting punched for advocating identity politics obnoxiously are very similar.
like it or not you have to win the minds of the people if you want to effectively stop facism.
I see. So you're an intellectual elitist who believes that some people are inferior in intelligence to the point that they should only be dealt with violently?
I assume you see where I'm going with this.
But isn't that what proletarian solidarity is? working class identity politics.
I don't want fascists to organise with ease. Simple
Kill yourself, Holla Forums. This garbage rhethoric does not convince anyone and after Charlottesville the few sympathisers you had see you as fringe lunatics. You did more to fuck over yourself than antifa brainlets ever could.
This sort of scaremongering is absolute garbage, and the Greek example I gave perfectly illustrates why.
Every single instance of fascism as anything more than a meme isn't the result of "le militarism" and "le patriotism" and "le elitism" and other such "problematic" cultural whatevers. Instead, fascism has always been preceded by a breakdown of law and order, by the police losing control of the peace, by the role of the police being taken up by street mobs, and by the military itself eventually becoming weak enough to be displaced by political paramilitary groups. Only in this environment does it become possible for authoritarian elements within the state to justify being "forced" to pick sides among these feuding ragammuffins in order to bolster their ranks. In other words, fascism is the state itself rotting away without entirely collapsing, and its vital functions being directly assumed by the indoctrinated toadies of big business.
That is not going to happen to the US in our foreseeable future. Period.
Ah, the frozen fruit comes out! Tell me, after you've taken the initiative by throwing the first stone at nonviolent people, and legitimizing the idea that violent outbursts are a legitimate response to peaceful expressions you dislike, how will you respond to the tables getting turned? If it comes down to a contest of military might, with the normalfags sitting it out on the sidelines, how confident are you this will turn out well?
All it will take is one incident with a "leftist" sperging out similarly, and I'm sure the media will be happy to pour all the blame in the world on us.
The thing you "fug le free market place of ideas" people need to understand that you can't stop fascism purely through violence. Fascism is an ideology not a person and while you can punch individual Nazis you can't punch fascism itself. I'm not saying violence can't be used at all like some free speech idealists out there, but it can't be your only weapon against fascism either. Violence works when ideas enter the realm of action but it does little to stop the spread of those ideas in the first place.
do you seriously believe that rightists will hear a leftist argument then suddenly say "my god, how could i have been so blind!?" and do a 180 on their entire worldview? these people do not live in the same reality as us
you sound like a smug liberal prick
Name me a single time that has secured revolution or suppressed Fascism. This is the height of liberalism. Incase you hadn't noticed, the right are organising, recruiting, and arming. If we don't do it, when the time comes, the collapse, they will win. Simple. Educate, agitate, ORGANIZE. If you are anti organization of the left in particular the armed or willing to fight left, you are not a revolutionary leftist, but a fucking social democrat
Well I think it's better to inoculate people from it in the first place than to try to convince actual fascists that they are wrong. The reason people become fascists is because they see some of the problems caused by capitalism, but they don't have any ideological framework to understand the real cause behind them. That makes it easy for them fall for scapegoats like jews, blacks, muslims etc. There just isn't a strong leftist alternative right now for people to turn too.
You sound like a LARPer that can't see beyond the walls of your hipster punk squat.
Do you seriously believe the incredibly tiny number of people you might seriously call "fascists" beyond ludicrous slander could ever be relevant without large numbers of reasonable centrists leaning toward their positions? Do you seriously think a first-strike policy against open debate is good praxis for ensuring centrists lean in your direction?
there are no "reasonable centrists." the very concept of a "centrist" is faulty
When I say "reasonable", I literally mean "open to reasoned argument", not "teh most enlightened reasonablest position possible".
goddamn it's like you are tyring your hardest to sound like a liberal.
what makes you think they're open to such argument in the first place?
Fuck you, burger, your kind is not welcome in intellectual discussion.
What makes you think they aren't? Colossal autism?
yes, and when you present such framework to them, they reject it and deem you an enemy
history, and the experience of living in reality, with other human beings
I used to be a centrist. It was really only after seeing people like Sargon say retarded shit time and time again about marxism that I really started to look into it and become open to the idea.
"centrist" means what? that you half supported capitalism and half supported anticapitalism?
Even if they are hostile it's important to get our ideas out there. If we don't then we aren't convincing anybody anyways. People don't just adopt a new ideology immediately upon hearing it. It takes time and repeated exposure to the inherit contradictions of capitalism for people to switch. The contradiction between use value and exchange value is a pretty good example. Everyone basically understands that things are made to be sold and not used and this contradiction is evident pretty much every time someone interacts with a commodity. The problem is people are so used to living like this that it's hard for them to envision an alternative.
Effective way to combat fascism is show the contradictions of far-right thought to it's believers. Strike right into the anti-intellectual bullshit the espouse, and bring that shit to light. Most alt-righters are morons when it comes to history and politics, which makes them prone to conspiracy theories about everything they don't understand. When an alt-righter or far-righter comes at you with accusations, refuse to play game their way, and point out what forces are really behind their complaints. Jews run the Hollywood? Not a cultural marxist plot, just nepotism as evolutionary survivial tactic, caused by thousands of years of progroms and anti-semitism. White women irrelevant shiting with "niggers"? Interracial dating is usually a fetish thing and correlates with risky behavior for women, because for centuries, interracial dating was a taboo thing. Besides that, interracial dating is not very common. Too much left-wing thought in academia? Has to do with fact that left-wing thought is continuation of englightenment ideas, while right-wing thought is opposed to enlightenment ideas, and academia is supposed to carry on enlightenment ideas.
Besides all of the above, just having a delicate one on one discussion with an individual aut-righter breeds lots of success at despooking them, since when you take stupid out of herd mentality, their conditioning is easier to break. When they start to question anti-intellectual reactionary shit on their own instead of muh feefees, they will begin to feel uncomfortable in aut-right circles, and will drop out eventually.
t. former aut-righter
The easiest gateway drug to socialism is coops (not just employee, but consumer and business coops, too), especially since the overwhelming majority of Americans still support unions, in spite of media FUD to the contrary.
It's an idea you can sell to practically anybody if you wrap it up right. Wolff's anecdote about STEM lolbergs spontaneously reinventing coops is the perfect example.
No need to argue, just do.
Cable Street was justified.
The way people define a centrist is someone who is willing to accept policies on their merits from anywhere within the traditional political compass i.e. the liberal one. Basically I was pro welfare and pro-gun which is typically seen a right wing stance in American politics. The way mainstream politics is framed in this country you really never see anything close 'real leftism'. As a result people don't know shit about socialism and say shit like this without realizing how ignorant they are. youtube.com
Seriously my mom has said things like this before.
Found the liberal.
so holding two mutually exclusive ideas makes one a "centrist"? just seems meaningless to me
It sort of is really. What I was trying to say is that the way mainstream politics is framed being a centrist really just means being a liberal as that image show with the split between social liberals and liberal conservatives.
Found the hysterical SJW
You need to get the fuck out.
Is it you?
i see. but really you were someone open to the idea of welfare, i.e. consideration for others, which is anathema to what rightists in america believe; i.e. if you can't compete, you should be left to die. so the question is, how are you going to convince someone who thinks that way, to support communism? because i don't see how 'reasoned argument' is going to inspire someone to believe in the literal opposite of their views
How the fuck is this not what's happening in America now?
Trump is president my dude. We are way beyond first strike, fascism is thriving in this new enviroment.
if getting rid of fascists would turn these "centrists" against communism, then how "centrist" could they have been in the first place?
Those are two different things. The whole "anti platform" movement is quite frankly juvenile - having some reactionary fart speak on a college campus is harmless, and to get worked up over it pathetic. However, any community that sees itself threatened by actively operating fascists, fascists who come to claim the streets, are right to oppose them using defensive force. How to argue for it? By invoking collective self-defense.
Well I'm not sure what the best approach to those types is since I wasn't one, but I know it does happen. Bad Mouse was an ancap before and Maoist-Hoxhaism was a literal fascist iirc. People like that are who'd I'd ask when it comes to persuading the right.
Did I say he was literally Hitler? I'm saying he enables fascism.
You sound extremely buttmad at the prospect of nazis getting killed. I suspect false flag.
Could be one of our friends from the Guardia Civil.
Could be one of our friends from "ignoring real problems so that you can massively overreact to totally irrelevant or completely nonexistent threats is exactly what got Trump elected and will keep making people like him more popular".
could you answer the question? if seeing nazis defeated leads "centrists" to place their sympathies with nazis, how open to communism (and by extension antinazism) could these "centrists" have been in the first place?
Because it's not "seeing nazis defeated", because actual (neo)nazis make up a microscopic fraction of the people you're sperging at. What it actually is, especially from their perspective is "seeing everyone who doesn't flawlessly toe the PC line harassed and lumped in with anachronistic caricatures".
Take off the tunnel-vision blinders and appreciate the optics of the situation.
so the solution is to let the right say and do whatever it likes with no resistance? or maybe even let them defeat us, making us the sympathetic party in the eyes of the almighty "centrists"
That pic is straight out of Holla Forums
Can you please lurk some more before shitposting newfriend? The world doesn't revolve around political correctness.
nice comic btw. don't really get how it applies to communists since we say nothing like what's in it
Or it could be one of the oldest friends of autistic larpers on the internet "managing everything like a finite resource in a video game and bitching accordingly"
Maybe, just maybe, there's some things between the extremes of violent sperg rage, or burying your head in your own asshole.
That pic is straight from our own 2016 election thread, newfag.
again, fuck off 'ancom'.
I don't care where you found that funny picture, it's clearly made by a Holla Forumsyp. All that muh white guilt and muh immigration
which you've not elucidated for us. how are you going to convince unsympathetic people, who hold worldviews in complete contradiction and hostility to ours, to side with us instead of our enemies, whose views are just an extreme form of those of the aforementioned unsympathetic people?
Is trade protectionism completely in opposition to our views? What about quotas against mass immigration? How about less military adventurism, especially nuclear brinksmanship with Russia? Heck, maybe even free speech itself, is that in complete opposition to our views?
If you're open to positions people already share with you, instead of binding your panties up into a bunch at their every faux pas, they're more likely to be open to your views they're unfamiliar with.
more or less (our goal is to get rid of "trade" as we know it, i.e. production for exchange)
more or less (our goal is to get rid of the cause of mass immigration, i.e. economic stagnation and destruction wrought by capitalism)
using the power of the u.s. military to pursue u.s. interests has widespread and bipartisan support. most americans supported destroying iraq and afghanistan. most americans support destroying isis
like the clintonites currently pushing for war with russia because trump won the election? furthermore, nuclear disarmament is a virtual non-issue in mainstream politices. no one cares
Do you imagine a communist society doing a lot of trade?
Please stop with this immigration scaremongering. It's literally not a problem under different economic circumstances.
Obviously no one wants this. But Trump seems to be pushing for one with North Korea.
If free speech means organizing towards fascism then yes. They need to be shut down by any means necessary.
This is equivocation. Obviously, under socialism, most of the issues we're struggling against couldn't exist. Even under socdem capitalism, if reform harmonizes economic and regulatory conditions between nations, much of their harm lessens in direct proportion. But under capitalism (or while capitalism merely persists, prior to complete world revolution), laissez-faire policies such as free trade and mass immigration are extremely harmful to workers in both the developed and developing world, and strengthen transnat porky, so terminating them ASAP is crucial to any imagineable agenda other than suicidal accelerationism. Regarding the popularity of militarism specifically, it waxes and wanes in response to our fortunes (for instance, both Afghanistan and Iraq became universally unpopular as they dragged on), but my main point was that Trump supporters tend to be more opposed to military interventionism than other Republicans, even if only out of shallow isolationism.
This is my key point. Fretting over your opposite number in the tiny number of skinhead outcasts and spergtastic alt-right LARPers is a waste of effort, but extending a hand in good faith toward the wave of popular revolt against neolib/neocon pseudoconsensus, proving to them that there are people other than neonazis willing to entertain their concerns? That is productive.
Sure, adress their concerns, but do it from a communist perspective, don't pander to their bullshit like you did here
You realize these are also the conditions for a communist revolution, yeah?
No they aren't. An armed communist revolution happens after that level of breakdown, it's not something we aim to create unless the government is already in a state of military dictatorship, which for all its faults the USA certainly isn't.
Read Marx, neither war nor reform are necessary, only socialism, and the easiest path leading to it.
We don't fire the first shot, but we will respond to unprovoked violent repression with force.
So do Hillarytards and Obamatards, so when I start seeing you faggots standing punching them, I'll take you up on punching Trumptards as well. Until then, we all know you're making that claim in bad faith.
Yeah, the political climate has been polarized. But the counter to your expansion is still bigger and growing, then your growth.
The door is behind you.
I've seen you respond with "idiot" every time challenged on this for about a month now. You're the liberal shill whose entire toolkit is to sage any challenge to your retardation with "idiot". You're not fooling anybody.
Gotta go fash!
You're retarded. Fascism's goal is to preserve capitalism, it exists whether or not socialism's presence does.
To protect private property rights, yes it is.
No there's not. Kill yourself, Holla Forums. Dying because you were a ractionary and maladaptive to communism isn't the same thing as forming a death squad out to kill people for their race. Take your horseshoe and shove it up your ass.
Books. Unlike you, libby.
Revolution is mostly a spectators' sport. Most of the population isn't going to intervene. American revolution for example happened with barely 1/3rd of the population active. Not saying it wouldn't be great to happen to have civvies take part, but with 3% of America owning 50% of the guns and "radicalizing liberals" being a sham, you're nothing but pure ideology here, boy-o.
you mean they haven't been doing that up until this point?
Liberals will apologize for the establishment regardless, its why they whine at antifa but give trumpfags a free pass. They're either neutral or actively suppressive so it won't matter anyway.
Take off that flag. Now.
Hilldawgs are not as obnoxious as trumpies and they dont organize rallies to call for genocide. As for obamafags well they basically don't exist outside the internet. once again
Fuck off, liberal scumbag.
Were they just supposed to wait until their neighbors taken in the middle of the night so they could justify their desire to live?
But I agree, punching Nazis isn't that great, would be better to run up on them with an AR-15 but it's a start
No, 2007 crash+austerity+immigrants+failure of the left to provide a compelling narrative caused the rise of the right.
Who let the /r/anarchism in?
People ITT saying that Rightists can't be reasoned or persuaded with and that the optimal praxis is attacking them for their beliefs are either severely retarded or cointelpro. You have no idea why someone believes something until you ask them, and thinking that all of them believe it for the same reasons is absolutely ignorant. I use to be an ancap and before that I thought Italian Fascism was kinda cool, and I'm sure a sizable amount of this board also were once Rightists, yet we're here because we heard Leftist arguments and realized they made sense. If either of use were punched by a supposed Leftist how likely do you think it'd be that we'd eventually listen to Leftist positions? Many people on the Far-Right are there because they see a huge problem and got suckered into blaming the wrong things, do you think attacking them will cause them to change their mind or the minds of those leaning towards that position?
All of this isn't even touching on how fucking irrelevant this all is. Deplatforming isn't just counterproductive, it's literally impossible; they didn't convert because they came across a Neo-Nazi rally, they converted because they came across Holla Forums and stormfront and all the other sites out there. Unless you literally intend to kill them, getting into confrontations with them isn't going to change anything, the best that happens is they kill you first and make themselves look like murderers. And once again, it's all completely irrelevant because you're worried about fucking skinheads turning the country Fascist when we already live in the Evil Empire, along with an increasingly militarized police state and the endless wars of imperialism. Why the fuck are you concerned about a future possibility of things possibly getting worse when the very real present is already really fucking terrible? Do you think most Americans would want or be fine with literal ethnic cleansing in their country? How is putting all this focus and effort on the alt-right going to do anything to the state and Capital?
because organizing against fascism worked so well for 1920s-1930s antifa
it is not like the nazis formed the SA and got public support and crushed antifa at their rallies and eventually went to rule germany.
Violence is not the answer.
The right controls all the guns.
Fuck off liberal scumbag
It did work though. The socdems betrayed everyone else.
And good theories about how fascism gain power etc.?
Not a theory but everytime a fascist regime gain power is always after a crisis and always appointed by the borgouise to protect them self against commies.
This episode was hilarious.
Look at the places where it didn't work
It worked so well it in Britain the far right had to legitimise, they could not organise on the streets and they still can't, not in any meaningful way without having to be surrounded by cops.
Can't tell who that's making fun of.
onanist you are the most based guy on this board imho.
That doesn't make it wrong
Not the point
lol ok yeah we don't need guns and therefore armed civvies for the revolution
Again it doesn't make it wrong. And whine about "smashies" all you want, some of em are actually p cool.
Fuck off libby.
No you dick. The problem is not that they call for fucking genocide. Otherwivise they could call classicide our objective. The problem is that they are class collaborationist and useful idiots for porky. holocaust wasn't even the worst thing hitler did. If you think otherwise you are the liberal here
It does indicate the level of ideological sophistication behind it, where anyone who disagrees with you or even tries to find a diplomatic way forward is literally hitler.
Then what is the point of wasting your limited energy on and raising the public profile of tiny numbers of obscure powerless losers?
Guns can't shoot porkies by themselves, they need marksmen. The only relevant statistic is the fraction of households that own guns, not the number of collectors using guns as an investment vehicle.
If morons like you cause the legal weakening or repeal of the 1st amendment , who do you think is going to suffer most from it?
When I see military bases blockaded, corporate execs kidnapped, and financial exchanges bombed, instead of retail clerks annoyed in playfights between overgrown highschool cliques and working class neighborhoods wrecked, I'll have a shred of respect for them.
Also, just noticed in the OP:
>How can we argue for not letting fascists, racists, etc. not get a platform?
Is this subtle mockery of smashies, or merely the result of OP banging their head against too many trashcans?
If antifa doesn't work then why are fascists cancelling all their rallies in the US?
when the organizer for the Unite The Right rally got shouted out by a crowd of people, were they dressed in black and carrying ancom flags? no it was a bunch of balding middle aged locals who were pissed off at those fags in their town. and other normal people are getting pissed off because they don't want another car attack in their town. not putting down antifa completely, but the entirety of a town being opposed to a nazi march is probably better than 20 or 30 kids in masks. so the better weapon is getting the word out about their marches to regular people. when a alt-right rally gets fucked up by antifa, they will always use that to play the victim and shift attention to the "real fascists" and keep up the facade of just wanting free speech, but if the people opposing them are regular people, then they can't pull that card so easily.
This. What are they gonna do, call every single every day person the "real fascists?"
So what we need is more class collaboration?
at what point did I say anything remotely like class collaboration? I just said your average Joe is a more formidable opponent to neo-nazis because they can't call them communist antifa thugs. of course the problem here is that it doesn't push the left at all, only retains the status quo and will be praised as a victory for liberal peaceful activism.
We don't need to push people to the left in the US. We just need to stop the American empire from going full on fash.