tfw "socialists" supporting bourgeois nationalist independence campaign
Honestly I think that nationalism/separatism can help the socialist cause, especially in a case where the separatist region in question is relatively left wing and the rest of the country is relatively reactionary. Take Rojava for example, who have ultimately helped socialism in the Middle East by bringing democracy and socialistic economic aspects to their corner of Syria, while Assad remains a neoliberal. So in any situation we have to ask ourselves, will the independence of a particular region lead to a new socialist state there, or will it simply weaken the socialist movement of the country by dividing it?
Catalonia obviously has a prominent left wing history, and I've heard that DemSoc parties are popular there, but I don't know the conditions vis a vis the rest of Spain or how likely such parties are to form a government.
Nazbol Catalonia when?
The last days on Holla Forums have been absolutely revolting, truly nationalism is the most perverse of spooks and have made me see that the problem with many socialist movements is that they're not international, only pure internationalism can crush capitalist nations, we need socialist movement with members and activities from all across the world working together
Yeah, like this poser right here
Lenin supported national liberation in a very narrow sense. He saw it as a means for an oppressed nation to free themselves of imperial influences but he never supported the nationalism of the bourgeoisie. The contemporary Catalonian independence push is entirely constructed by local bourgeois elements and has nothing to do with combating imperialism.
If the working class turned out in mass to take a shit in the streets would that be a victory too?
Democratic self-emancipation is not a bad thing. Read Lenin.
This post is complete faggotry and stinks of the kind of high horse bullshitting we regularly see here. The fact that you even think you can have members and activities spanning the globe shows that you've put absolutely fuck all thought into what you write and hope somebody else will do the thinking for you.
"oppressed nationality" lol the whole thing started because they didn't want to subsidize poorer parts of Spain. ignoring the recent police crackdown.
also this is nationalist consciousness, not a class one, there's absolutely no class element to it. yes working people are participating but only a moron and workers fetishist would view any 3+ people gathering as significant to communism, those protesting are doing so out of national sentiment not class one.
What are they emancipating themselves from here, the Spanish bourgeoisie? All well and good, except they're just replacing them with the Catalan bourgeoisie.
Ummm they're liberating themselves from the filthy pack of leeches that make up the rest of the Spanish proletariat. This is obviously something communists should support.
Except for the part where it's whipped people up enough to get the CNT leading general strikes and aiming to take over.
Imagine being such a brainlet that you have to reply misrepresenting the opposing side so you can feel like you're not a brainlet.
Anything that scares EU capitalists and makes status quo liberals go all "we need muh open dialogue" is a good thing in my book.
What do you guys think of this hot take?
Then why did he support the Norwegian independence of 1905?
Spanish Internet Defense Force, please go.
Also, it will throw the Spanish bourgeoisie in total chaos, even if just for a little while. Net positive my dude
There is that, and it's something I'm vaguely hopeful about (I posted one of the articles about it in the cyclic thread, even), but I'm not sure how an eminently nationalist movement could be transformed into a class-based movement.
That said, I'm also probably not as up-to-speed on the conditions in Catalonia in general as I should be - for all I know there could very well be the possibility of such a transformation, maybe even more so after the fucking catastrophic (yet predictable) response from the Spanish state.
But we have to be for the EU since the majority of people against it are nationalists, fascists and retarded tankies
I'd rather work with libs and succ dems then nationalists and authoritarian succ dems
Yes, let's just ignore how the Spanish bourgeois police react to a national liberation referendum. What could that possibly tell us about the class dynamics of the situation?
There are elements of both.
Two of the three major parties organizing for independence are anti-capitalist. Trade unions have gotten involved and there are heavy labor elements at the forefront of it all.
That's fine, because when workers develop a revolutionary consciousness they will turn it from the alien national bodies repressing them to the organic national bourgeois repressing them. But they have to achieve national self-determination for that to happen.
You're a moron.
All that will happen is create a catalonian bourgeoisie
Literally nothing will happen you retarded fuck
A C C E L E R A T E
Why 2 threads?
I'm pretty much completely convinced that we only do well in moments of chaos at this point. By removing Catalonia from Spain, Spain takes a financial hit. Spain already has a massive amount of unemployed youth, so giving them this kick along with the CNT trying to take over Catalonia could cause a chain reaction all over the country, and by extension the EU. It's not about the separation of Catalonia from Spain, but the destabilisation of Spain under perfectly reasonable complaints to legitimise further action.
I mean Spain's unemployment rate is ridiculous, but this is the first I've heard of them in the news in any serious capacity since the fallout of the 2008 recession. I bet they'll be in the news a lot more if this keeps gaining momentum, and since /ourguys/ are the first on the scene it will start paying dividends for us, not the yellow unions and the bourgeoisie that have already bailed on escalating the violence but by now are fully committed to going ahead with independence and will ruin their careers and reputation by backing down.
Because brainlets need to let everyone know how much they loathe the proletariat whenever it actually tries to do something.
You're the tankies advocating for nationalism
I bet you haven't even actually read marx
Nationalists aren't reals proles you Larping faggot learn to read and educate yourself on real Marxism instead of nationalism
Oh boy just to think I made this post before this gem popped up
that Spain's economy is in need of Catalonia's. Catalonia's independence would literally fuck up Spain's economy. it's very simple. it tells us absolutely nothing about the class dynamics, what determines the class dynamic is whether the class is acting *for itself*, and in this case, it is not, it's being lured by bourgeois national Independence and ultimately baying the heavy price so that that Catalan bourgeois can dominate in their own region and do not have to be bound by the Spanish government taxation.
even communist characteristics in its simplest forms such as fighting for betterment of economic condition is absolutely absent here. it's pure nationalist sentiment.
which means shit. leftists and trade unions have always been opportunists and I dont see why they can't be in this case. I don't judge movement based on how many self styled "leftists" support it, but what's the consciousness of it and its leaders, it's aims and what form its clash with capital takes.
Bad take dude. A prole is a prole regardless of their political opinions.
Please tell me you said this ironically.
The bourgeois being involved in a movement doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a progressive movement. The bourgeois led the American and French revolutions, but they were still progressive.
It will bait a military intervention outta this, showing Porkies only care about democracy as long as they profit from it.
Is he, dare I say it, trivializing imperialism?
allying with progressive bourgeois in anti feudal struggle is totally justified and was necessary for the dominance of capital and getting rid of old mode of production. that is not the fucking case in spain. it's fully developed capitalist state, any alliance with bourgeois is opportunistic and counterrevolutionary
Comparing the progressive transition from feudalism to capitalism that the 18th century revolutions facilitated with a contemporary ethno-nationalist movement is pretty fucking ridiculous.
Wait, what the hell is going on here? I thought people on the board were supporting the movement because there were a lot of anarcho-syndicalists and Bookchinites in the local government? Where is this "allying with the bourgeoisie" accusation coming from?
Fuckin off yourself tankie
Imperialism doesn't matter when it's two capitalist states going against one another I couldn't care less about your retarded Assad worship
don't make shitty arguments so you don't have to backtrack later
Don't be such a retard you can't spot the difference between two posters even with a visual aid.
I agree with OP. We can never support the interests of the bourgeois. National liberation just isn't relevant in the 21st century.
This is why we need to have solidarity with Israel in its struggle against the bourgeois Arab nationalists and other opportunists.
Feel free to post an argument that isn't you crying into your speech to text app any time.
supporting israel is supporting bourgeois nationalist you moron.
Good to know.
It fills my heart with joy to know that the people I imagine are disagreeing with other posts in this thread (likes ones which I made) are so autistic they can't spot someone mocking them.
Do you people have autism?
As other have pointed out national liberation helps destabilize capitalism, even if it plays into the hands of the new indigenous bourgeois in the short-term.
Both the independence of Catalonia and Kurdistan will create revolutionary conditions. That doesn't mean I like Barzani or Puigdemont.
Consider actually reading Marx and Lenin.
Homie I know you were trying to mock me but you failed. Next time you should try to ground your mockery somewhat in reality instead of in a completely absurd position that no one is advocating.
Not him, but it's literally the exact same position.
Saying we should support the Spanish bourgeoisie in their repression of the Catalan bourgeoisie AND proletariat is no different than saying we should support Israel against Palestine.
Only in your dreams.
The post specifically states I did not make the one before it you autistic fuck.
yeah, what the fuck happened in the history of the communist movement that made us oppose nationalism and collaborationism… but I'm the idealist one and you're the analyst amirite?/
I'll take "Got all of his political stances from leftypol hot takes that went unchallenged" for 100
I googled the op image name and it's linked to a reddit account named Phlegmsky. Apparently even redditors can't tolerate him, so he brought his bait here.
two threads later
Realising that the current push for Catalan independence is entirely constructed by reactionary bourgeois elements does not mean I "support" the Spanish government. I hope Catalan proles fuck up both the Spanish and Catalan bourgeoisie but that doesn't change the initial motivations propelling this movement.
comparing the Catalans to the Palestinians is quite offensive. when Catalonia has its 95% of water reserves poisoned and literal kids are drinking it daily, when Catalonia is on the brink of "humanitarian catastrophe", when the Catalan are literally under apartheid. then you may compare the two, and you'd get more ears taking "whatever means necessary" seriously.
National independence movements pave the way for revolutionary workers movements. We've seen this trend play out in literally every capitalist region of the world.
If you support the Catalan proles, then maybe direct your attention to their immediate aims and actions instead of an abstract wish for them to participate in a socialist revolution that doesn't even exist yet.
I wasn't aware that the severity of the situation has any impact on its class dynamics. Oh wait, it doesn't.
Fuck off making parallels if you don't like others doing it then you ridiculous leftcom redditor.
I didn't mention class dynamics. I wouldn't support Palestinian national bourgeois movement either. but IMO in question of Gaza for example when the population is on the brink of humanitarian catastrophe, I think anything should be done to prevent that. my point was that comparing the two makes no sense, given that the struggles the Palestinians face from Israel can't be compared with the Catalan situation.
The two biggest red flags. Not to mention the imgur file name.
correction : it does make sense in that it raises the question of national independence, and as I said I would argue against that in Palestine too but the Palestinians face much harsher and more immediate concerns
Except this kind of what-about-ism is actually the insane troll logic Zionists use to exploit, oppress and terrorize Arabs. "They may have it bad, but we're not Nazi Germany!"
What is the exact threshold for when the proletariat is allowed to side with bourgeois in a quest for self-determination? Does it require death camps and slavery?
Vietnam? Cambodia? China? Burkina Faso? Libya? Egypt? Every other part of the world that was at one point under the boot of western imperial powers?
what the fuck are you talking about?
I have and I find them to be largely motivated by a reactionary sense of nationalism. Supporting something simply because a portion of the proletariat do is fetishization of the worst kind.
Are you stupid or doing a fantastic impersonation of someone that is?
And none of those nationalist movements have destabilized capitalism in any significant way.
Don't you know? Only redditors use the words opportunist or offensive. Therefore you're a redditor which means you're wrong by default.
Holy shit you're a faggot. It's only apparent after the fact that they haven't, and impossible to tell beforehand if they will. At least you've dropped your smug "muh revolutionary conditions" shit immediately, not that we haven't had an entire thread on this that you were too fucking lazy to read.
Only redditors cry about how offended they are you fucking retard.
Either you're a braindead leftcom or you're just trolling
ment to reply to
we can easily identify that the situation in Catalonia is not the same in Palestine in terms of the oppression those people face without falling into a slippery slope. there are much more things to consider when it comes to Israel Palestine.
Palestinian national bourgeois would mean two states in this situation. even generic leftists don't support two states anymore. better approach imo an anti racist, anti apartheid type struggle is very well justified to break the two state dichotomy. it's less nationalism and means both Jewish and arab working class can ally in struggle through their existence in the same territory, same trade, same factory etc.
you're weird as fuck.
You're a brainlet that has been BTFO multiple times in a single thread crying about people being mean and opportunistic, you're basically a caricature of every smug moron on this board.
whatever dude I hope you have a good day
Only cup are somewhat bookchinites (they are a group of different leftist organizations).
JxSi is a center wing coalition pushing for independence.
C's are center right neolibs.
Psc/psoe are the mainstream center left socdems.
Csqp is a podemos party, socdems who are left wing but not really.
And ppc are catalan pp.
There are two ansyn syndicates in spain, cnt and cgt, the former has like 10000-50000 affiliates and the latter 80000 i spain. Compared to the mainstream: ugt (1.057.700 affiliates) and ccoo(1 139 591).
what were doing the IRA, EZLN, FARC, PKK in the XX you moron ? they formed each other to insurectionnary tacticts and bomb making, proclamed solidarity to each other. The revolution has to start somewhere, the fact a national liberation struggle can have right wing tendency doesn't mean they are entitled to it. Ideas and praxis are shaped by these struggles, people become more radical. The fact national liberation struggle didn't bring FALC doesn't mean it won't. By that logic spontaneous international revolution of the masses didn't bring any more change if not less so it wont work either.
I just realized that anarchist supporting this are the ideological equivalent of tankies supporting russia.
Chinese nationalism was completely subsumed by capitalism and now China is one of it's biggest practitioners. I wouldn't call that a significant destabilizing effect.
My butthurt with analyzing history at such a shallow level is that the material conditions aren't going to be the same and that the broad strokes used disregards any nuance in what made something work/not work the last time round and the fact that every time it completely disregards capitalism persistently approaching its theoretical demise from falling rate of profit and automation.
I don't mind it used as cautionary tales and something useful for informing yourself of unexpected consequences but saying "that was tried X years ago in the country Y and it didn't work so it won't work here" (and the opposite, where something did work) is ridiculous, there are far too many variables involved.
AlQaida dnd ISIS have operatives on international levels, plus this s the XXIst century, global communication is easier than ever.
Solidarity is a thing and actual coordination is another
No rightist tendency should ever be tolerated
Dismantling EU would only serve to make NATO and USA stronger.
The EU acts as an enabler to NATO and the USA, not a rival.
For now, but when the UK leaves and thanks to Trump presidency we have an opportune moment to build dual power in form of EU army. It would not only appease the non-NATO members of EU but serve as way of restoring European control over our own states.
Does anyone have proofs of this? I see this posted in every single thread about catalonia and I haven't ever seen one person prove that this is an anti-democratic movement.
also every time the marxists on here start whining about things anarchists like/don't like, the marxists keep getting proven wrong later on
I read some Catalonian Anarchies takes on it just the other day, the general opinion seems to be "We weren't prepared to deal with the referendum, don't necessarily support it, but also enjoy destabilizing traditional state power. There doesn't seem to be any real path forward either way."
I for one don't especially give a shit. Doesn't seem like Catalonian independence would really make that big of a difference in the long run anyway.
I support the balkanization of any and all colonial empires, past or present. I hope I live to see Russia broken into dozens of ethnic States.
So you just side with feelz>Realz
You would be surprised
You are a moron, the reason why the soviet union was world superpower was because of the russian empire, if it happened in a small country, say bhutan for example, it would have a very small effect on the rest of the world and would possibly be crushed by another world superpower
anarchists are never right about anything ever
support anything that disrupts the status quo tbh.
t. butthurt Marxist
Sage, don't bump
you're not a leftcom buddy, take the flair off roght now
yea, it's all fun and giggles when you live in your little protected bubble
when ethnic conflict will come knocking at your door, we'll see what you will sing
ironic coming from internationalist or whatever you are
also ironic that this kind of rhetoric only helps Vlad
the thing is, people in general don't want to be balkanized, and especially russians, they remember serbia, iraq, syria, arab spring, ukraine etc
so it's Putin or benevolent uncle Sam
not much of a choice, really
Kinda, because there's no realz in this case so might as well go with feelz. Whether Catalonya is independent or not, it's just Porky's summer beach villa either way.
Rich countries will never go red in the first place.
I love that people here tend to forget that past socialist revolutions had nationalistic undertones.
There is a reason Marx called culture "the phenomenon." People are more influence by the people around them than other lower spooks like religion. Culture is a set of practices influenced by material conditions. Cultural boundaries are spooks, and certain aspects of culture such as morality and theology are spooks, but to discard all of culture as a spook is intellectually lazy. Culture is made up of the complex interactions between human beings that spread through all sociopolitical and economic systems.
It's not about being rich, it's about stability, rich countries can go red or atleast have a civil war if they're highly unstable.
Full Communism soon comrades, truly /ourguys/
extremadura too poor for separatism
The fact a country is rich or poor has no say if it has revolutionary potential, once the contradictions of capitalism take hold.
Culture is not the same thing as nation in this context.
Indeed, but nationalism is still built around a central idea that unites a people under one singular entity (the nation-state). In most cases culture, linguistics, religion, ethnicity etc. are used as justification to unite a people under the nation-state
it is not about picking ONE bourgeoisie of both. It's either BOTH or ONE. Also, the youth is vastly documented on leninism, which can turn out to be a good thing.
Kek the nation is the project of nationalists who pick and choose what aspects of existing culture they want to include or omit from the "nation". Nationalistm precedes the nation. It's a completely artificial construction.
And so is the nation-state. I should've clarified that justification can be based on a lie. I guess that's what I get for posting high as fuck, being forgetful and shit. I'll leave you with this quote that sums it up
"Modem nationalism represents, with regard to this, a movement in the opposite direction. Modem nationalism is not based on a natural unity, but on an artificial and centralizing one. The need for this type of unity was increasingly felt at the same time as the natural and healthy sense of nationality was lost and as individuals approached the state of pure quantity, of being merely the masses, after every authentic tradition and qualitative articulation was destroyed. Nationalism acts upon these masses through myths and suggestions that are likely to galvanize them, awaken elementary instincts in them, flatter them with the perspectives and fancies of supremacy, exclusivism, and power. Regardless of its myths, the substance of modem nationalism is not an ethnos but a demos, and its prototype always remains the plebeian one produced by the French Revolution. This is why nationalism has a double face. It accentuates and elevates to the state of absolute value a particularistic principle; therefore, the possibilities of mutual understanding and cooperation between nations are reduced to a bare minimum, without even considering the forms of leveling guaranteed by modem civilization."
God fucking damn some of you guys are dense and even more ignorant than those on halfchan's Holla Forums. There they call us nazis, communists, globalists, jews, muslims, greedy, socialists, totalitarian, etc.
Here you call us bourgeoise, nationalists, greedy because we don't want to help muh poorer regions (which btw, you're advocating for literal gibs and socialdemocracy which is fucking disgusting).
Of course there's the ones who understand the complexity of the situation and understand that even though the centre and centre-right party are 'in charge' of this secessionist movement, it's a collective effort to claim our land. We march together for now, because we're patriots and care about oach other. We do it for our families, our ancestors and our future. Why the fuck would we want to stay here, hated upon by a tyrant central government? Why should we keep giving money to poorer regions, instead of simply working on them, creating jobs and letting them be efficient enough not to starve out?
We want this to happen, doesn't matter the age, social class or ideology. Afterwards, we will become politically antagonic to eachother, but for now we're a united front.
Of course, political fanatics HATE unity.
Nationalism being born from liberalism doesn't equate being bourgeoise. Patriotism is important for the working class because that way you can unite when the situation becomes rough.
We get shit thrown by some Spanish communists who defend the Kingdom and the regime of '78. Who defend forced unity through fear. Who defend the 'workers government in Madrid' led by the authoritarian neo-conservative PP.
We don't buy it anymore. We're off.
Also, lots of anarchists in heavy industry. Lots. So fuck off user who claimed they were larpers. We have every bit of the political spectrum here.
You can't have internationalism without a shift to a more multilateral distribution of power first tbh. Balkanization isn't necessarily a bad thing for the left imo
You're fucking retarded if you think that people here are against nationalism because they want to help poor people or because they want to redistribute wealth from rich to poor. Communism isn't just a more equal capitalism without bosses, it's intrinsically cooperative and competition between nations ultimately hurts productivity even if it can sometimes be beneficial in the short term for wealthier nations. The goal of communism is to help people everywhere to become more self-sufficient and productive so that nobody has to be a burden on others.
Nationalism promotes class collaborationism and divides the working class, that's why we oppose it.
Nationalism is always bourgeois
see kids, this : is why socialists should not support bourgeois nationalism. it turns your brain to rot
Why are these kinds of maps always so fucking bad?
It sounded like a pretty good post.