When

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like where? Also, supporting nations right to self determination doesn't mean supporting fascist movments.

All tankies, from stalinists to trots, and succdems, in my area, had supported Catalan "independence". Only anarchists had a spine to criticize it.
As usual, when we talk about class struggle, ML's and their enemies, socdems, agree: we need to strictly cooperate with "middle class" and nationalist struggle. Isn't it surprising? For me - not.

Who will self-determinate in liberal democratic capitalist state? Workers? Are any common interes between workers and their bosses?

I mean, I'm an anarchist myself. I feel like the state's reaction is more noteworthy than the independence movement itself at this point.

I support it critically as it could faciliate more leftist organization. I have no illusions about what the thing is. My point was the hypocrisy I encounter here so often about the issue of national liberation and reformism.
You don't understand the theory behind it. We would never support a petit-bourgeoisie revolution in the developed world. The thing is, we actually understand historical materialism and know that when national liberation happens in the underdeveloped world, the interests of the proletariat and the national bourgeoisie allign for a short period. After that, intensified class struggle begins; this is not an ideology, this is the way history works and has worked all through the 20th century: The NEP, New Democracy, Vietnam, etc., you can't have socialism directly after imperialism/feudalism.

After the revolution succeeds. Until then you will have all manner of faggots supporting every nationalist struggle in hopes of extracting a gem of class struggle from it.

literally reading a mpogiopoulos article at this very moment titled "catalonia: clash of bourgeoisie interests with the proletariat paying the price".

this is why "left unity" is bullshit. you are literally liberals that hate authority figures

this is why "left unity" is bullshit. you are literally fascists that love authority figures

most of MLs never read Marx, the others who did misunderstood him.

Narchos are pretty much in favor of the independence from what I've seen. because catalonia or whatever. only leftcoms unequivocally objected to it from what I've seen

Yeah, that bitch should have gotten raped then reported it to the police.

there's absolutely no reason to support this. irrelevant regardless. communists supporting bourgeois nationalism is opportunist.

lmao

aligning with progressive bourgeois in anti feudal struggles made sense at some point in time and Marx was in favor of it. but capitalism has spread its dominance in the entire globe at this point. most of the countries tankies defend against "Imperialism" are as capitalist as it gets. there's no excuse for collaboration in united fronts, or for communists to form unity government and occupy state position. this confusion of revolutionary theory that tankies promoted and continue to promote is among the biggest obstacles that the proletariat has to get rid itself of

The chaos wheel was a really nice touch.

It's not necessarily a win for socialism but I still believe in the right of nations to self determination. This is a terrible thread.

then you're not really a socialist

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Why? Explain how revolutionaries like Lenin were not real socialists.

What kind of a complete and utter shill puts imperialism in quotes like it doesn't exist?

Nationalism is a meme invented bourgeoisie in the 19th century. I don't see why leftist hold on to it. It may be required in the transition but higher stage communism would be the end of all nations.

So what has changed? What makes you think the world works different now compared to the 1850s? To what degree? The entire history of the 20th century proves you wrong, but instead of analyzing the situation of revolutionary praxis you blame your boogeyman, the "tankies". This is the worst kind of opportunism, rejecting revolution because it's not your type of revolution.
As if it doesn't exist
Tell that to the proletariat that simultaneously fights of imperialist occupation.

Nationalism is class collaboration, between the working class and national bourgeoisie

nationalism can just be uniting of the working class of one nation without the bourgeoisie under socialism

Read Cockshott
reality.gn.apc.org/polemic/antina.htm

what is that?

Donetsk People's Republic, basically a cargo cult Russian proxy. The poster seems to be retarded.

This is the worst shit I've seen on Holla Forums, the lack of self awareness and dim sight about the matter have been incredible painful. These people who supports cataluña are the same reason why liberals are such cancer, they will be happy with any oppression as long it has a liberal ethos or in this case a liberation ethos

So according to this definition Hitler and Mussolini were really socialist

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READ THE RIGHT OF NATIONS TO SELF-DETERMINATION

You people are fucking retarded. The Catalan independence referendum is the most important thing to happen to the left since 2007-2009 and you think we should squander it because you're children who think anything short of "gas the Porkies, class war now" is "class-collaborationist".

Really makes you think.

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Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
The Right of Nations to Self-Determination:
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/self-det/ch01.htm

Seriously, it's quite short: libcom.org/library/nation-state-nationalism-oiseau-temp-te-andr-dr.

/thread

read this imbecile:
"But holy hell, when the fuck did I claim that Imperialism had no relevancy? As far as understanding capitalism today goes, it is all the more relevant than it ever has been. What I did claim was that Lenin's thesis on national liberation had no relevancy today, it were to be applied today we would be compelled to support the Taliban, among many other reactionary anti-imperialist movements. We live in a world where national-determination has been rendered impossible, capitalism has truly globalized."

source revleft.space/vb/threads/189152-The-Natural-Instinct-to-stick-to-your-own-kind?p=2761194#post2761194

Objectively incorrect.
No, the Taliban are compelled by a proto-fascist pan-Islamic imperialist nationalism. This can be readily confirmed in their class dynamics; their leadership is mostly petty and even big bourgeois, while their base are either semi-tribal peasants or lumpen proles with virtually no proper working class elements. Middle-Eastern national liberation struggles we would support from a Leninist perspective would be the Kurds and the PLO, among some of the more conscious elements of the Arab Spring.
On the contrary, national-determination has been rendered a necessity. The only way for countries ravaged by imperialism to build socialism is to kick out the imperialist forces. This is the task that MUST be accomplished first, especially in the third world.

Catalonia is a surprise considering they are in the advanced Western capitalist first world, but it's a welcome surprise. The same principles of national liberation are just as relevant, only now they are applied to a more advanced productive base. If you look at the leading organizations involved in this struggle, you will see anti-capitalist and mass-based labor movements at the forefront of it all. This is opening up enormous potential for the realization of socialist revolutionary mobilization in the first world. Only a fool couldn't see it.

I cringe at the levels of LARP and delusion you're on amigo.

The Catalonia movement is being supported by the Catalan bourgeoisie, but it definitely isn't being led by them (at least not exclusively) and the base being mobilized are overwhelmingly working class. It has almost nothing in common with my description of the Taliban.

Not even surprised.

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I've never met a leftcom that hasn't read State and Revolution and used it to explain power dynamics in the capitalist state. But of course to a tankie "not following dogmatically" = "disregarded"

There's a special kind of kill yourself for retards like you.

I think the problem is that your mouth is all clogged up with spittle. Try to breathe through your nose.

you weren't "spreading communism" you were making a meat shield for daddy Stalin

National liberation =/= national supremacy