What, specifically, do you guys have against nationalism? Be it ethnic or civic...

What, specifically, do you guys have against nationalism? Be it ethnic or civic? Do you think there's middle ground with nationalists, especially given that almost half of the "1%" is Jewish?

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marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/may/10.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/crnq/index.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/jun/30.htm
mondoweiss.net/2013/04/forbes-jewish-billionaires/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Nationalists are all unbearable faggots.

It's just an excuse to prop up bourgeois interests while workers work and toil, or die in the trenches.

READ LENIN
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/may/10.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/crnq/index.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/jun/30.htm

Fair.


I think liquidating the capitalists who got us - America, specifically - into the mess we're in is necessary. I feel like we'd be in agreement on that.


Sorry, I don't trust Jews by default.

What is jewishness tho? How jewish does a jew have to jew to be a jew? It is a silly application that makes no real sense.

And there ain't nothing wrong with socialist patriotism.

White nationalists are all secret jews. Post ur nose.

Lenin was as turkish as he was jewish. What makes him "A JOO"?

Which isn't even true if you include areas outside the US.
mondoweiss.net/2013/04/forbes-jewish-billionaires/

Regardless, why would I give non-Jews a pass? Holla Forums can't explain this to me and will instead spout nonsense about "race loyalty", even thought white workers have been exploited by white capitalists for centuries, and the Nazis themselves were the greatest slaughterers of whites since the Mongolian horde.

You're doing that thing where you act like an unbearable faggot, user.

It's biology.


I wouldn't give any vultures a pass, be they private or public sector.

/leftycuck/ has an antiquated notion of nationalism rooted in the Belle epoque

Don't take a single word they say about nationalism seriously here.

Every sane white person in the coming years will be forced to turn into a nationalist out of a matter of survival. Especially when ecological disaster goes into full swing and hundreds of millions of africans start roving the Eurasian landmass. Nationalism or barbarism.

Prove ur not jewish

Again, Lenin was pretty much an equal mix of ethnic jewish, ethnic german, ethnic russian and ethnic turkic heritage. What makes him "A JOO"?

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Yeah, but that in itself doesn't change anything if you just turn over the reins to Aryan/White/AngloAmerican™ capitalists.
Capitalists whether they are Jews or not, are merely acting in their (material) self-interest. To truly supersede the conditions that give rise to the Capitalist class you'd need to abolish capitalism itself.


Pic related.

The 1 drop rule, duh. Do you not know how Holla Forumsacks operate by now?

The fact that he's Jewish makes him 'a joo'.


Neither of us are going to get what we want with jews still in the picture. I mean, given how much jews prop up your side it's possible you might get some of what you want, but they'll just be the new bourgeois.

National Liberation, the struggle of a nation against imperialism, is a worthy goal. However, this must be coupled with, at least ideologically, but hopefully materially with the cause of international proletarian revolution and must be carried out with this in mind, or it will be a bourgeois nationalism, which is no nationalism at all, as you sell yourself to international capitalism

Do you think race is biological?

???

We're going to have to continue to extract surplus value from the workers to pay for the continued development of productive ability and providing for those who are unable to work, anyway. Why trap your framing of communism in that very small box of morality?

How is he any more jewish than German tho? How does the hiarchy work? Does German blood override slavic, if my great grand daddy was spanish but m grandmother was Italian which one is more important?

I think race is a meaningless buzzword that people with inferiority complexes use to feel better about their own shortcomings.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

If this applies to you, you're Jewish.

That's your prerogative, that's fine. Very convenient to avoid the question, but whatever.

You're retarded.


What, are you asking me if race is something you inherit from your parents? Why don't you try asking me a real question instead?

Lel. He's post are good but the doesn't make an argoument in this one.
Loving you culture

Well I mean that never applied to Lenin because he died in 1924.

Enlighten me with a better definition then. All I'm hearing is that my "racial interests" are only important as far as I am an obedient good-goy worker drone.
Meanwhile I can be pushed around, forced to die in far-off lands, and even enticed to kill fellow whites. All while my white bosses at home grow fat and wealthy.


And yet they will gladly parrot the propaganda of PragerU, Ben Shapiro, and other neocohens. It's almost as if they're just useful idiots for capital…

This thread is going places, I can tell.

I'm asking you if race is genetic or not.

What is race to you? Skin color? Haplotypes? Favorite food? I need to know exactly what kind of idiot I'm talking to before I can tailor my response to you.

Culture predates countries as they're understood in the modern sense. And even then I feel more connected with my local community than the weird apparitions that are "nations".
Nor is being a frothing chauvinist a prerequisite for liking my culture. I like where I live, I'd be willing to take up arms against a foreign invader, but I refuse to be a useful idiot for the owners of capital regardless of how many flags they wave.

nations are spooks, they don't exist. ergo, nationalism is the religion of faggots. Read Stirner.

Haplotypes and genetic predispositions.

Why should someone love their culture? I'm an American, and for some reason I'm guessing you don't like my culture. So why should I like it? There is plenty to dislike about it, so why should I "love" it.

Gee, user, I'm not a biologist here, I'm not sure.

Define 'exist' for me, please. Is this some magical shit like money doesn't 'exist'?

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Something that doesn't apply to the vast majority of people right now.

To what extent do you think race effects people? Just skin color? Certain diseases effect different races and ethnicities differently. I guess the reason I'm trying to pick your brain on this is because most leftists I talk to regurgitate 'race is just a social construct'.

I don't see how the fact that some people are more likely to get sickle-cell disease should influence how they're treated in the social sphere.

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If you're getting on "intelligence is genetic blah blah blah", you'll have better luck somewhere else because everyone here understands that genetics effects your health more then it effects your intelligence.

And really, it's not your intelligence which is a great qualifier for who you are, it's your body, and your health. And with every shallow gene pool the genera Homo has had, every extinction, leading up to now. We're one of the more genetically diverse, but also unhealthy animals on this planet.

Genetic differences exist in all men, but using that anything more than it is, an issue of health, and turning it political, Biopolitical. It's a massive mistake.

How much do we know about epigenetics to be able to control it, user? This field hasn't been around that long, but I'm genuinely open to learning something about it.

But I agree with you. You see the difference from your post and one that says that we should eradicate patriotism? Abolishing capitalism is the most patriotic thing and the only way to save a culture from being Mcdonald'alized

You culture is literally consumerism, you don't have a culture

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I could say the same for Europe at this point.

Because it's a part of themselves. You're who you're in part because of that culture.
Same goes for anything, there's always room for improvement.
Now get in your SUV and go grab another burger.

Mystic voodoo bullshit

National liberation itself is most of the times a bourgeois struggle. In reality my class interests lay with abolishing capitalism rather than exchanging one master for another.
The independence of many African, South American and Asian states didn't herald the end of capitalism, nor did it improve the living conditions of the workers on itself. Imperialism and exploitation don't end when another flag waves from the pole. Nor does the end of Imperialism mean the end of capitalism.

Epigenetics concerns itself with the influence of the environment on gene expression.
I think you mean genetic engineering/gene therapy?

Bet you never even ever come to europe burger. It's not your fault if you can't understand. As much as it's dumbed down and more diluited you can still find it in a lot of places and in the small everyday things

You wanted to say spooks didn't ya.

I pity americans

Yes I have.

I wouldn't call that 'patriotism', but I agree with your point.

America isn't the only country where the Law of Value rules.

I wanted to say mystic voodoo bullshit, but thanks for the pity my continuously banned friend.

Most of the time, not all of the time. Which is why my whole post was qualifying that as also being part of the international proletarian revolution

I broadly speaking support it provided it is based upon strengthening one's society, and ensuring all are paid fairly for their labour, but then again I'm massively idpol so…

True but they don't even have a fucking history or traditions to commodify

I got banned like 3 times since I started posting.
Now go back to your fucking taco bell and talk about how taco bell is mexican culture beyond borders

Europe is above fast food chains. It's a highly civilized society full of highly civilized people who would never fuck up in a million years. Forget how many conservative knobs we've elected, we are a great continent filled with great people who know exactly what they're doing.

We don't get banned either.

Europe is partly responsible for Theresa May, don't let the high horse with a dildo on its saddle buck right up your ass.

Epigenetics is simply the way certain variables in the environment of an individual effects their phenotype. That is, the observable characteristics of an organism (mind you, observable doesn't necessarily mean readily apparent. It could be to do with anything from a limb, to a cell membrane).

It is all caused by a change in gene expression that is caused by the environment. All sorts of things can cause epigenetic changes; that is, many things can stop certain genes being expressed, or cause certain genes to be expressed where they otherwise wouldn't be.

It is not to do with a change in the actual DNA code, merely which parts of it are expressed, and in what capacity or situation.

I'm more interested in Holla Forums's opinion of Red Letter Media than this retarded bait post t b h

They're alright. Mike and Jay's opinion on Blade Runner is retarded though.

Better than fucking America of all places for sure. At least getting robbed and killed for 20$. At the least a third world country who LARP as a first world country. At least we never had reagan.
Literally everything you did we did it better

Those fucker are responsible for what become known as 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧AMERIGGA🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 we hate them more than you
Now why do choose between 20 flavors of pepsi


What's their opinion on blade runner?

Rich Evans laugh cures cancer and AIIIIDDDDDSSSS.

I appreciate OP's use of everyone's favorite hack fraud susan

The 1% where? A fucktonne of people outside of Europe and America don't even know what a Jew is let alone know bout The Holocaust. Even in countries that have/had Jews they ain't always on top. Ethiopia had Jews and they were Roma-tier oppressed till Israel literally airlifted them outta East Africa.

A Papua New Guinean that just got breadpilled a year ago and wants a worldwide Marxist revolution ain't gonna see nationalism as any less spooked just cuz another red on the internet's got a problem with an ethnic group he's only ever read bout.

Dear leftists, stop with the "read X". No we're not going to read your shit, you can either explain what X said or just be silent because you give nothing of value to the discussion except to inflate your own ego.

That said, would anyone of you be up for ideological and ethnic nationalism? You can have an ancom community in a given geographical location, while libertarians have their own and white nationalists society have theirs.

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imagine my shock

You are not in a position to bargain here dude.

Neither are ethno-nationalists or libertarians.

Nationalism for liberation of workers and from imperialism is ok
Nationalism because of ethnic pride is trash

If you honestly care about the contents of a book then give a fucking synopsis of it with the rest of your post.

There's no physical 'thing' that is a 'nation'. There's a group of people who put value int meaningless characteristics and ideas.

ie: A fuggin spoog

Oh what's up Jason?

Nationalists are spooked dumbfucks who care less about the abolition of captialism and more than everyone autistically matches.

Also this

You're a spooked cuck.

Is that actually Unroo?
Kek

He reminds me of a piece of garlic sometimes.

That's cool, but how much do we know about these variables?

Does he have layer's like a self-critical onion tho?

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My thoughts on what RLM got wrong on Blade Runner?

For one, regardless of Scott's intentions, and it not being well established in the plot, Deckard being a Replicant adds a hazy view on if our protagonist was a plant all along. If his window into the narrative is unreliable, then exactly what can we take from him, did he really experience feelings and emotions, etc. The same questions the plot brings up on replicants are suddenly thrust upon the protagonist, who its revealed, has no authority at all despite being a "cop". His entire life would be predestination, but is it really?

If Deckard is a Blade Runner, and Blade Runners are all a certain kind of replicant, what other careers in life are replicants that don't know what they are. Sure, Tyrell says that Rachel is the "latest model", but he could be talking out of his ass. It could be the latest model he's publicly willing to unveil.

That and there's already establishment of this in one of the drafts, originally Tyrell would of been a Replicant, with his real self in suspended animation in a sarcophagus. This makes the whole "Deckard being a replicant" angle make more sense. Tyrell is obviously hiding some shit. It's meant to make the line drawn between human and replicant so murky that you can't tell who is a replicant and who isn't. For a Blade Runner, they must have selective vision, just enough not to suspect themselves.

In the larger plot, this can be commentary on not only race relations, relations of identity, culture, alienation, Othering. It also can be a comment that Capitalism itself has made the perfect prole, and their everywhere. Or…are they? The point is there's ambiguity, but Capital has definitely made careers replicant oriented through loop holes in whatever law. One can speculate that perhaps the only real humans are in the upper class.

You just have to think a bit about it. And RLM just calling it boring is a load of crap.

They're not great, but they're not bad either.

Occasionally they (inadvertently?) point out fucked up aspects of Capitalism.

The Jack and Jill review redpilled me on capitalism tbqh.

I wish they dug up shit like this more.

The Jack and Jill one is really good. I should go back to it and chop out the relevant parts.


Me too.

""Nationalism has always been a disease that divided human from human ―”abstract” as traditional Marxists may consider this notion to be― and it can never be viewed as anything more than a regression toward tribal parochialism and the fuel for intercommunal warfare…'' - Bookchin

Their better than south park's "hah you don't have the same political 'don't give a fuck' lolbertarian views we have, you care too much hah! we're so much cooler than that!" attitude. but when they showed the clip of George Lucas defending the soviet union's ability to produce unique movies, I definitely got a decent 'we understand specific capitalist problems, if maybe not capitalism as a systemic issue' vibe

Does Bookchin not realize that people within the same communities are part of the same community. Or is he stupid enough to believe in the whole “global community” bullshit.

The problem is that nationalist movements have historically been at odds with worker's liberation, and have either been outright against socialism from the start or ended up using socialist pretenses to accomplish their goals and then dropping it when unnecessary to them.

Despite Stirnerfag objections there isn't a problem with a fondness and solidarity for your homeland (i.e. patriotism) in itself, and if anything an internationalism without cultural distinctions (i.e. countries) is imperialist.

The only middle ground is Nazbol.

nationalism isn't actually bad it's just that 80% of the mods are ultras that can barely tolerate tankies

If you have a positive view of nationalism then you aren't a leftist.

It's entirely the us vs. them mentality/practice. Real life requires tit-for-tat and cooperation. Nationalists and their nations are precisely that one fucking kid on the playground who will never play by the rules, cheating any time nobody's looking so they can snatch a "win" for themselves.

It's more like they are familiar enough with the film industry that they know bullshit when they see it. People tend to do this when it comes up in their specific interest pretty well. See all the old Holla Forums memes about how awful video game publishers are.

this is the problem with nationalism, you don't care that you are being oppressed if the people exploiting you are the same race as you. You care more about what race people in power are, than about the system of power thy are in control of. It's all feels over reals.

Nothing inherently, it just that nationalists often time are shit. Nationalism is a tool to increse support for a government. And like all tools it can be used by both sides. The problem is that to many in the left think that using the tools of evil for good is impossible. Those people are morons.


le individualism. When will this meme die?


The entirety of history has been determined through conflict and the us vs. them mentality.

Not an argument natcuck

You mean one side of the capitalist class against the other side of the capitalist class?
Meanwhile of course workers suffer and die. But I figure that's okay because it was "For the greater good!". (Propping up bourgeois superprofits)


History is the conflict of Man against All. Against his environment, again his fellow human beings, against time. There are patterns, but Man stands alone, even in his connection with others.
I am not the collective, even if in some forms I share interests with it. "Race loyalty" is a spook because my interests do not line up seamlessly with the rest of the group.

You can denounce this as individualism or whatever it was you were going at. But we are not the same not matter what skin color we share or what language we speak. I am my own.

i don't have a problem with nationalist so long as it's, say, black nationalism or kurdish nationalism

but any kind of european or white nationalism must be crushed, and thankfully the refugee comrades are doing a good of that

Stupid Trot. Nationalism is for everyone. Read Thiriart.

What I’m saying is that nationalism is a political tool that can be used by us or Porky.


History is determined by collectives fighting one another. Individuals are to small or insignificant to matter most of the time. There’s seven billion people in the world. If you think that you, as individual will change history, then you’re an idiot.


I never said we were the same. I never said skin color maters. I said that culture matters. It affect the way we think and the way we act. And this is important.

The refuge crisis is the main cause for an increase in white nationalism. You don’t understand how excelerationism works do you?

Collectives are made up of individuals, ideologies need actors to possess to enforce the goal of said ideology. It can take a single man to change the tide in a war, a single scientists to develop the cure, or a single artist to inspire a generation.

Except it can't. See the PDF at the top.
At the moment we pursue nationalism over rational self-interest we've already outsourced our individual interest to a phantasm.
The interests of this conjured nation are not my own. It can be a tool in our individual hands, but the nation can never represent the totality of our self-interest because it is supposed to transcend it. Like the totality of the body transcends that of its subdivisions.
Nationalism is the denial of the self.

At the heart of every historical change is at first an individual - known or unknown. That's not to say that a tsunami doesn't have more impact than a ripple. But neither rules out the other. Our bodies are composed of trillions of individual organisms just as historical movements are composed of thousands or millions of people.
The death of one doesn't end the whole, but the influence is there. We see the wave, but that doesn't mean that the underlying molecules have disappeared.

Well, not disagreeing there. I mistook you for one of the Holla Forumsyps.

because it ends in war, every single time

Everyone with brain damage maybe.

The fewer spooks, the better. In fact, that should be a guiding principle in any leftist current.

Those individuals don’t do it alone. They do with the help of other’s labor. The scientist needs to base his work on past discoveries and experiments. A general comes up with his planes by consulting other generals. A singer needs people to play interments. A sculptor or painter needs people to produce the materials they use.


So much idealism. Ideas are created based on the material conditions people are in. The ideas of capitalism, socialism and fascism were historical inevitabilities. Our ideas are not created by us, but by the material conditions we find ourselves in. Our ideas are nothing more but a narrowing in on the ideas that can come out of our material conditions. Also what is good for the collective is good for the individuals inside of it.

Why are you even talking about idealism? Capitalism was at first a condition before it became a defined idea. It was defined post facto.
The idea that not people and their actions are at the forefront of historical development, but rather abstractions, is idealism.
If we consider dialectical materialism, then yes capitalism was an inevitability just as socialism will be. But it is still the actions of people and individuals that are at the heart of those developments. There is no capitalism without people.

Which is just hogwash as the collective and the individual are by definition different. What is desirable for me as a 'complete' individual (as far as that is possible) may not be desirable for my individual components.
If I become stuck under a rock and cut off a limb, is that both in the interests of me and whatever body part I leave behind?
Under the abstraction of the collective the higher relation between components - in this case people - takes on a life of its own. What propagates and ensures the continued existence of the collective may not be in the best interests of the individuals that define it.

This is what I meant with nationalism as the denial of the self. By placing the nation above my own I resign myself to the possibility that I end up as the discarded limb. The interests of this collective are no longer bound to my own. I serve the interests of the collective, not the other way around.

lol, into the trash your opinions go

You're talking to a drone. It makes sense they feel like all their ideas come from outside themselves, because for them they do.
Communism was a defined idea that never even became a condition, and it certainly had some potent effects on history. Your idea of "Capitalism" includes the idea of "condition before explicitly named and studied as a unified phenomenon". You didn't step back into history to find the condition, you heard of the idea.
"People" and "actions" are both abstractions, as whatever comprises "historical development", perhaps abstracted from the experience of narrative memory?
What supposed pernicious idealist worldview that lacks people, or posits ideas as free floating causal agents separate from people, do you think you actually responding to here? Bishop Berkeley really triggered you this much? This whole rhetorical recital you all do seems to be a constant battle with a figment of your own imagination.

Here we see how Marxist thinking tends to portray the people it claims to valorize and uplift as empty figurines; robots, ants, chess pieces. What the fuck is a person without any ideas?
Why would this necessarily be the case? And given the collective only actually exists in the minds of its members?
Bahahaha, well you're not gonna like Communism then, Max.

If you'd never consider self-sacrifice for the group of people around you, ok, that's honest. Riddle me this: at the point you're a danger to a neighborhood, because of predatory, insane, addictive or dangerous behaviors, at the point they decide as a group to end your ability to harm them, is that the point they suddenly find their egos suddenly dissolved into autonomous hive mind? Or is that ridiculous, there's degrees to this, and your issues with your own autonomy and fears are operative in your worldview here?

I explained that the idea can be traced far back in the script with Tyrell being a replicant. No need to be obnoxious.

Who were the classical liberal philosophers and economists who existed BEFORE capitalism.


No they aren’t. In order for the collective to succeed it must do more good then harm for it. And while you might be “sacrificed” be being killed in a war or what not. The mathematical probability is low. And because the collective must benefit, and collectives are composed from the individuals inside of them then each individual has a mathematical very high likelihood of benefitting. What’s next are you going to argue a worker’s revolution isn’t in your self-intrest because you might get killed.

It's not even a possibility, it's a certainty.

I mean, Blade Runner is all showing off its artistic greatness. The miniatures and shit have never been really reproduced since, it's a masterwork of craftminship of all who worked on the film.

But it's basic theme of a general human savior who learns "maybe killing replicatants is bad, maybe the world is screwed up, maybe I made a mistake, maybe they're just like us" is so cliche and hamfisted that the visuals would be the only thing holding up the plot.

The reveal that Deckard being a replicant adds a million different possible questions about the world the movie takes place in that the standard plot (which is fairly weak), wouldn't have. It makes the issues the plot deals with right into every aspect of the setting and the characters.

So plot wise it actually improves the film rather than takes anything away from it.