So why exactly won't democratic socialism work? If we continue educating and agitating the proles, I don't see why we can't eventually vote our way into owning the means of production and abandoning capital.
The only rebuttal I've heard is that "they" won't let us. It stinks too much of conspiracy theories about illuminati. This kind of thinking only leads inaction
Isn't a violent revolution inherently anti-democratic, if the rebels form a minority of the proles, isn't that enforcing the will of the few onto the will of the many. The only time revolution seems reasonable is if rebels were a majority of the population and tried to vote someone out but the leader refused to resign.
If the argument is that proles are too dumb to know what they want, doesn't that mean any type of violent revolution will give way to populist facism?
Are "real" socialists against democracy? Is this mostly a tankie board?
I think I agree with you, though a lot of the time the """democratic""" institutions are too insulated and resistant to change. Also, you have to keep your group(s) pretty free of socdem cucks.
Easton Hughes
pick 1
Juan Anderson
first thing i thought was "inb4 some tankie comes to explain the justifications of killing everyone"
i agree pretty much 100% with you although "real" socialism doesnt necessarily have to be enforced.
Jackson King
the state when it feels capitalism is truly threatened by mass mobilization will use violence and suspend or skew things like elections (look what happened with bernie without even mass support for socialism) . this is why succdem doesn't work. communism will come through violence, nothing else
Adrian Hughes
In order to have success, you have to delay the deaths of people in poverty in America. On top of help them. Things like single payer health care help in the long run, because it keeps the impoverished alive for long enough this century to understand what problems are to blame in their life
It's not a certainty, but it's certainly better than the alternative, which I believe would be the capitalist class completely cutting off entire regions of support, privatizing water and the electrical grid.
You can't just say "I'm doing nothing about that", because people won't see a future in you.
Hudson Anderson
yes but even if that turns out to be true, wouldn't it be better to face that with a coalition with a majority of the population being democratic socialists?
If we were to do a violent revolution now, with the vast majority of the population not even on board with any type of leftists theory, wouldn't that just lead to chaos and possible facism?
Whereas if we mobilized the proles now and proved that democratic socialist measures worked, it would give us a mandate to lead post-violent revolution
I guess what I'm wondering is, do people who think voting doesn't work inherently believe that democracy has no place in society post-revolution?
David Campbell
why do they need to be succdems, why not go directly to the dictatorship of the proletariat. the democracy succdems wish to have is an emulation of liberal democracy heavily tied to capitalism thats why we wouldnt you dumb shit succdem dont work see above
Look. I'm a democratic socialist and I'm a ML. I think if we infiltrate the borg democracy and get the prole votes we can one day wheh we are in control we abolish the borg insitutions. Basically pull a Hitler. That said I do belive that we need to be allined with a small armed group a là IRA. I don't want to end it all like chile
Dominic Sanchez
it cannot work for similar reasons why revolution won't work 1. the bourgeois have control of the media and the school curriculum They can and will spread disinformation in order to mislead the proletariat into acting against their interests. They will do all in their power to prevent a truly socialist alternative to be on the ballet paper. If a socialist candidate gets on the ballet paper they will do everything they can do discredit him or her. If a democratic socialist government is elected the bourgeois media will do everything they can to discredit the government and portray them as undemocratic. Foreign governments will fabricate evidence of election rigging and help with this effort and denounce the socialist government as undemocratic (this is where we are with Maduro currently).
2. the bourgeois have control of the police and the army Suppose the proles elect a democratic socialist government, and the bourgeois attempts to undermine the government's popular support have failed, you then move onto step 2: violently overthrow the government. This is done with the aid of the army and/or police*. As these institutions naturally attract people who are pro establishment and right leaning and gullible it's easy to brain wash them into an anti communist fervour which you then exploit into convincing them to other throw democracy (though it's portrayed as overthrowing an illegitimate undemocratic government that has seized power. the Disinformation spread in steam 1 comes in very handy here.)
3. arrest/kill/torture any remaining leftists in the aftermath and sit back as you've successfully shorted up the position of the bourgeois for the next 3 decades!
*probably with CIA backing.
Revolution cannot work for similar reasons. 1. Violence cannot bring about or uphold an inherently peaceful ideology such as socialism. Revolution is fine to instate capitalism or other flavours of authoritarianism because these ideologies are inherently violent.
2. Many leftists especially trots talk of a peaceful revolution which may only start after having >50% support in a country. If you have >50% support in a democratic country then revolution is unnecessary as you can simply vote for a socialist government. As the majority of the proletariat do not wish to risk violence they will prefer to work within the pre-existing structure of bourgeois democracy, and will therefore not support a revolution. Instead they will prefer to elect a democratic socialist government which will fail for the reasons outlined above.
3. Most modern capitalist nations have armies so powerful and well equipt that an armed resistance trying to overthrow them would be doomed to fail.
Socialism is impossible to achieve, the revolution is never happening, proles will always prefer racist ignorance and hatred to to class conciousness. The fact capitalism is now in its inevitable death spiral after 300 years and even now socialism has not taken hold is as surprising as it is depressing - it means capitalism is not possible to overthrow. It is a stable equilibrium in that displacements from that equilibrium by the odd revolution or socialist government do not tend to set off a chain reaction and change the dominant system from capitalism, but instead tends to beat these aberrations into submission and return to equilibrium. It is this, therefore that dooms us.
Capitalism will fall apart as Marx predicted, it is inherently contradictory, but the we will be embracing it in its dying moments and die with it, clutching to our breast the beast that killed us.
it cannot work for similar reasons why revolution won't work 1. the bourgeois have control of the media and the school curriculum They can and will spread disinformation in order to mislead the proletariat into acting against their interests. They will do all in their power to prevent a truly socialist alternative to be on the ballet paper. If a socialist candidate gets on the ballet paper they will do everything they can do discredit him or her. If a democratic socialist government is elected the bourgeois media will do everything they can to discredit the government and portray them as undemocratic. Foreign governments will fabricate evidence of election rigging and help with this effort and denounce the socialist government as undemocratic (this is where we are with Maduro currently).
2. the bourgeois have control of the police and the army Suppose the proles elect a democratic socialist government, and the bourgeois attempts to undermine the government's popular support have failed, you then move onto step 2: violently overthrow the government. This is done with the aid of the army and/or police*. As these institutions naturally attract people who are pro establishment and right leaning and gullible it's easy to brain wash them into an anti communist fervour which you then exploit into convincing them to other throw democracy (though it's portrayed as overthrowing an illegitimate undemocratic government that has seized power. the Disinformation spread in steam 1 comes in very handy here.)
3. arrest/kill/torture any remaining leftists in the aftermath and sit back as you've successfully shorted up the position of the bourgeois for the next 3 decades!
*probably with CIA backing.
Revolution cannot work for similar reasons. 1. Violence cannot bring about or uphold an inherently peaceful ideology such as socialism. Revolution is fine to instate capitalism or other flavours of authoritarianism because these ideologies are inherently violent (the eastern bloc survied so long precisely because it wasn't socialism).
2. Many leftists especially trots talk of a peaceful revolution which may only start after having >50% support in a country. If you have >50% support in a democratic country then revolution is unnecessary as you can simply vote for a socialist government. As the majority of the proletariat do not wish to risk violence they will prefer to work within the pre-existing structure of bourgeois democracy, and will therefore not support a revolution. Instead they will prefer to elect a democratic socialist government which will fail for the reasons outlined above.
3. Most modern capitalist nations have armies so powerful and well equipt that an armed resistance trying to overthrow them would be doomed to fail.
Socialism is impossible to achieve, the revolution is never happening, proles will always prefer racist ignorance and hatred to to class conciousness. The fact capitalism is now in its inevitable death spiral after 300 years and even now socialism has not taken hold is as surprising as it is depressing - it means capitalism is not possible to overthrow. It is a stable equilibrium in that displacements from that equilibrium by the odd revolution or socialist government do not tend to set off a chain reaction and change the dominant system from capitalism, but instead tends to beat these aberrations into submission and return to equilibrium. It is this, therefore that dooms us.
Capitalism will fall apart as Marx predicted, it is inherently contradictory, but the we will be embracing it in its dying moments and die with it, clutching to our breast the beast that killed us.
fuck sorry for the double post it took so long to post I thought it didn't work. won't let me delete one now either
Justin Ramirez
The goal pre-revolution is to become the majority.
Joshua Hill
you understand that this is the same rhetoric used by illuminati conspiracists? Once you go down that rabbit hole, it only leads to speculation and inaction. What's to say you aren't a CIA op using conspiracy to pacify the proletariat? What's to say we both aren't CIA ops using this discussion to confuse the proletariat?
The only thing missing in your assessment is the rise of the antichrist
Hunter Morgan
you understand that this is the same rhetoric used by illuminati conspiracists? About this all knowing and all powerful freemason reptilians, excuse me I mean bourgeois, that are impossible fight against and therefore we should do nothing.
Once you go down that rabbit hole, it only leads to speculation and inaction. What's to say you aren't a CIA op using conspiracy to pacify the proletariat? What's to say we both aren't CIA ops using this discussion to confuse the proletariat?
The only thing missing in your assessment is the rise of the antichrist
Anthony Williams
Most people here are against social democracy, not democratic socialism. It's a common mistake to get the two confused over here in burgerland though, so I don't blame you for reacting this way
Charles Diaz
So SocDem is our best hope?
Joseph Parker
no, we have no hope, that was the point I was making, or trying to make at least.
Nolan Powell
How can we even continue living then
Jack Flores
I guess you're right. the bourgeois consist of humans, they don't all share the same opinion on the matter and they make mistakes. I portrayed an inevitability about the ways in which socialism would fail in my post which is not really accurate, these things aren't inevitable to happen but I think they're quite likely to happen. not what I said, and I don't advocate doing nothing honestly sometimes the most important struggles are made in the face of complete hopelessness I just said there was nothing we can do that's just my own assessment, if you want to try to do something go ahead, and if convinces me that it would actually work I would join you well I mean I'm not and that sounds a little paranoid honestly what I wrote just reflects my own pessimistic and hopeless feelings I have at the moment for various reasons both personal and political
so many misspelt words in my post it's annoying me now
well it's up to you perhaps you can find hope in fighting for what you believe in there is one thing that I glanced over in my post completely and that is this, I'm convinced capitalism is eating itself to death.over global warming and automation and if I'm right this will lead to an extraordinary crisis of capitalism that makes 2008 look like a blip. the last time something so significant happened it lead to proletarian revolution in russia and fascist revolution in germany and a war that engulfed the whole world. in such times maybe what I wrote isn't inevitable if we learn from history.
Brody Ross
Socialism won't come about because the proles are dumb and need to be enlightened. Shit will have to get bad and there will have to be a crisis which makes the bigass police state we live under unsustainable. Or, we all die.
The fash don't have any real answers when the market literally goes to shit and it becomes impossible to move product from point A to point B. Of course they'll blame the brown people and moochers, but when the problem doesn't correct itself, the fash will have nothing left but exterminism of more and more people. Last time big shit went down, capitalism had to invent deficit spending and fight a bigass war to survive, and capitalism now rests on bigass private and public debt that will basically never be repaid.
In theory you can "reform" but it can only happen after the capitalist system breaks down big time. People aren't going to reform because of muh fairness or idealism. Most likely though the ruling class isn't going to allow their muh privilege to be taken from them. People do all sorts of stupid shit just for the sake of their muh privileges.
Anthony Gomez
That's the only electoral route to socialism - if you're not capable of defending your bloodless revolution, the other side WILL coup your ass.
Julian Jackson
It would if the majority of people wanted to replace capitalism rather than just having a more equitable capitalism And if it was a solid enough majority to affect change in the republic, which is almost never. A transition within the existing state structures would be great if it could happen.
Kevin Sanchez
FTFY
Christopher Murphy
it dosent because even if a non suc-dem socialist gets elected then pic related happens
Wyatt Morales
Home-baked praxis: nihilistic reformism. Get elected as a demsoc gov, bait the deep state into a cou, win then launch the DoTP.
Julian Moore
I think Engels said something to the effect of "if the bourgeoisie see their State being used against them, they inevitably will fire the first shot".
Connor Rogers
You basically have something bordering on "democratic socialism" already in much of western Europe, and it's a fucking catastrophe just as exploitative as any other capitalist nation. We see the proles no closer to the means of production, in fact, they're probably even further away now than they've ever been in these succdem countries. There's no "conspiracy theory" about it, we have eyes and can see what is happening every time power hungry socdems get power.
Easton Foster
you're confusing social democracy and democratic socialism there is definitely not anything like democratic socialism in western europe
