Capitalism, Socialism and Markets

Is there such a thing as a non-capitalist market?

theres a reason capitalism is named "capitalism" and not "marketism"

markets existed long before capitalism did, and likely will for a while after

There are some not currency but exchange-bases "Really Free Market" type of fairs anarchists sometimes organize.

Of course. What defines capitalism is the employer-employee relationship. One person owns the company, while another person works it. The second person makes more than they're paid, and the rest is kept by the owner as profit without any work on their part.

Remove this dynamic, and it's no longer capitalism.

market 'socialism' out and stay out

Wrong . Capitalism is the rule of capital, not the rule of capitalists. It's capitalism, not capitalistism.

If you have production for exchange you still have capitalism because all the things that drive capitalism, exchange, profits, superprofits, competition, etc still exist.

feudalism also has markets, even once you correctly recognize market socialism is just tidied up capitalism you still have to face that markets predate capitalism

Yes, some of the oldest socialists were followers of Adam Smith and Divid Ricardo.

never said they didn't tho.

literally read bordiga
“There cannot exist in the future an economy which is still mercantile but which isn't capitalist anymore. Before capitalism there were economies which were partially mercantile, but capitalism is the last of this genre.”

"market socialists get out" in response to "are non-capitalist markets a thing?" makes it seem like you're saying "no, because market socialism is capitalism."

In the future, consider what your posts will make it look like you're saying in the context of the thread you're posting them in.

Have done so, found him unconvincing

Market socialism is borderline capitalism, I meant I never said there weren't markets in feudalism

yes i realize that now, but it LOOKED like you were saying that in the first place, because of the context of the thread you were posting it in

t. "co-ops are socialism" marksoc

Market socialism retains the generalization of commodity production and wage labour. It is fully capitalist by the Marxist understanding of the term

What's the reasoning behind that? That quote is just saying "markets existed before capitalism but can't exist after capitalism because reasons".

What you need to understand is that even if we got rid of capitalism and just went on with co-ops and market economy that model would still be restrained by the social necessary labor output, which means that if a co-op falls behind in production another one would appropriate it's value, and for co-ops to be more productive than the average social necessary labor rate, it would imply that they are exploiting themselves, a market economy will always lead to a competitive environment and it wouldn't take long before capitalism starts growing back from that, some might blame yugo's downfall on tito's death and U.S shitstorms, but I'd argue that it was inevitable with or without tito

Can't unsqueeze toothpaste.

So capitalism would collapse whilst we lived inside a much more humane system?

The only way i can see co-ops taking over rapidly would be if governments seeded and reseeded them. Also remember that the more co-ops there are, the fewer places these is for capital to invest, so it would inflate away. Which would mean rich people would have less money with which to influence politicians.

Pre-capitalist markets? Yes.
Post-capitalist markets? No.

Depends on how you define a market. If it is the basic definition used in economics, it is just a meeting between Needs and Satisfaction of Needs.
Thus: In a planned economy there will still be market mechanisms.
But next step in computer technology actually obsoletes the main benefits of markets; that they are a signal mechanism to producers and consumers about what to buy and produce.
A bar-code scanned and sublimitet through the Net to a producer is something that actually make it better to plan markets, rather than cumbersome bureaucracies, or slow information-flow in a free market.

no

TANS has a model of consumer good allocation based on market mechanisms.


it was going to go one way or another, either towards capitalism or the abolition of capitalism and with the state of the world being what it was in the 80s and with nationalist pressures it was only going to go capitalist.
I agree with Cockshott in that market socialism is a system in transition.