It is may day, 1949, in Germania - Berlin. The national-socialist german workers party rules supreme in greater Germany following a victory in the battle of Britain and a killed-by-air-raid Churchill that forced Britain to switch sides in the war on the condition Germany stays out of France and does not annex any territory east of Poland for itself.
The streets are filled with cheap state produced 'peoples' cars' - volkswagen, the skies filled with 'peoples aircraft' - volksflugzeug, the adriatic and baltic sea coasts are covered in labour front workers beach resorts to keep the people content. May day celebrations are in full swing with labour front and labour service parades. Homo-erotic posters of muscular peasants are everywhere, and on live TV Hitler is seen preaching at the monumental Deutsche Stadion to a crowd of children about a 'classless society', 'arbeit unt brot' - labour and bread, and of the necessity to breed a new master race. Since wars end, to keep the proletariat in check and further fuel theatrical sacrifice - including eugenics - the regime has shifted back towards their Asserist and SA roots. The USSR is a rump state, with an uneasy armistice towards the 'white' Russian German puppet west of the Urals. China is under Maoist control after a partial U.S. victory over Japan. youtube.com/watch?v=2SSkOGvW4s8 is chanted by a symbolic parade of shovel-wielding workers to commemorate the 'peoples storm', and beyond the iron curtain of the Nurnberg pact, the western capitalist countries struggle to contain national-socialist rather than communist sentiment.
The question is; will true leftism ever compete with the appeal of nazism in these proletarians? Will there ever be another red dawn, or has a nazi victory forever ended leftism and shattered every theory, every plan, every dream of a red world? Was Marx wrong about an inevitable socialism?
A victorious third reich would be more of a continent-wide khmer rouge without the communist flag than a functional state.
Matthew Lee
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Matthew Cooper
Your scenario is so wildly unlikely that any answer to your question could be seen as plausible
Gavin Murphy
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Easton Roberts
m8 u cant be serious
David Scott
The Americans did not nuke Germania since the German war effort, unrestricted in spending due to a lack of British based air raids, developed means for delivering dirty bombs to the U.S. heartland through submarine towed V2s and amerikabombers, whereas the U.S. could not effectively deploy any munition to the German heartland. Thus, any U.S. nuke delivered to Germany in late 1945 would be answered with the entire eastern seaboard dying from radiac poisoning. As the Germans successfully detonated their first nuclear bomb in late 1945, the British forces approaching the Urals stopped co-operating entirely and seemed to intend to return to France, and the U.S., only de jure involved in the war with Germany until now, claimed to ready a deployment of nukes to Russia, should the Germans attempt to use nukes to push beyond the Urals. The Germans responded with threats to give Japan the bomb, and thus the war went cold.
I doubt that. They would have been more murderous during the war than after most likely, and they proved they could still function despite the mass murdering.
Is it really though? That is the question.
If the Germans had won the battle of Britain by identifying the British radars as targets and not falling for Churchills bait, they would have won the war. I was being nice in my estimates here for the sake of argument.
Classless society is a direct quote by Hitler from the famous Hitler Youth speech. Arbeit und brot was a frequently used party slogan. Necessity to breed a master race is a core issue of nazism. The party extensively used leftist rhetoric before the war to keep the workers in check. There is 0 reason to believe they would do otherwise after the war.
Julian Hughes
Further, it was Hindenburg, not Hitler, that wanted Röhm dead and the SA quelled. Hitler disappeared and refused to speak a single word for a week after murdering an openly homosexual pseudo-leftist after the Hindenburg ultimatum. Some of the living inner circle during the war sympathized with the Asserists/SA quite openly including Goebbels and Göring.
To
see before you reply.
I was hoping to make this a discussion on the end of history theory and the intrinsic animalistic appeal of nazism/tribalism and how it rivals socialism in terms of sentiment in the general populace.
Chase Campbell
You really think the Krauts would get the bomb? By time they did, America would have mass-produced enough A-Bombs to flatten Europe.
US was making a powerplay at the world and would stop at nothing to dominate "Germania", even if all of Europe were reduced to cinders. There is no way you keep Britain and France neutral in such a conflict (and France would have to be taken out as in OTL for Battle of Britain to even occur).
Nazi Germany's only play was to do what it was doing and hope the West was more sympathetic to fascism than the Poles or the Slavs. The sympathy for fascism is the only reason Hitler got as far as he did. Hitler guessed wrong and got his ass handed to him. There was no alternative.
Also there is no chance in hell a "white" Russian puppet will ever exist given Hitler's well-known racial policies, especially if Hitler never invades USSR. All he's doing if he does that is give Stalin more time to industrialize and join in America's powerplay.
Ian Mitchell
You're all overlooking the retardness of this:
Henry Taylor
Germany didn't come close to winning the battle of Britain. But supposing that happened, how does it translate to defeating the Soviet Union and winning the war?
Andrew Torres
They did have capacity to easily produce dirty bombs (high altitude airburst radioactive fallout devises) which are useless for anything but spreading terror and are thus not in use today. Still, as retaliation weapons they would easily have prevented the U.S. from doing anything if times were not desperate enough (as in, no U.S. boots on ground=not desperate). A dirty bomb of enough size to be of use would have required a large bomber (which couldn't make a trans-atlantic flights until post-war, except for the german Amerikabombers) or the system the germans developed to tow a V2 by a sub as a sub-launched cruise missile. The Germans sacked this project after only prototypes due to cost, and no dirty bombs were ever launched since they had 0 military potential (leaving every building untouched) and would just poison civilians. Even the nazis realized this would just infuriate the enemy so it wasn't worth developing in the early war period. The nazis shut down their nuke program due to cost related to the British air raids. Without them, the U.S. and nazis would have gotten the A-bomb at about the same time. Einstein claimed the fear of this was his motivation for joining the Manhattan team. He left as soon as he realized the British air raids had neutralized the threat. Further, without British bases, the U.S. could not deliver an A-bomb of magnitude to Europe and even if they did, they'd get all of New York radiation poisoned as a reply (resulting most likely in a cold war end), assuming they got the bomb first (which they probably would have). If the U.S. launched smaller carrier based nukes, it would be a matter of weeks until the Germans developed their own. The main blunder was the Germans didn't realize the potency of the bomb (they fucked up on a 0. Yes. Really. They wrote a 0 wrong), hence they sacked the project. Seeing one in action and being nearly done when they quit, it wouldn't take much to figure it out and they'd spend their entire R&D budget on it.
I agree a real nazi victory wouldn't be as kind as my OP, but it was more of a philosophical example. A white russian puppet would be a potential outcome with early war British complacence and influence. Churchill prevented this compromise but the nazis did request it. Of course, the nazis would eradicate the Russians later on anyway, but this might never have happened since nukes would have by then changed the game completely, and we'd see Russians slaving away in satellite states. The white russian puppet would be after a successful push towards the Urals. The German lines would be stretched so thin they would have had to rely more on HiWis, hence they'd have to motivate the Ukrainians and occupied Russians not to rape their supply lines by pretending they wanted to 'liberate' them, like they did with the Baltics.
Again philosophical example. They would have made a French puppet for sure.
It was down to a few hundred planes. Churchills "so few" speech addresses this. The radar blunder and the switching away from the airfields to the cities when the Brits had nearly lost is what saved Britain and the world from nazi (at least partial) victory.
Brandon Clark
Britain was a battle of attrition and the Brits were outproducing the Germans in aircraft and training more airmen since day one. In the worst case they would've pulled their aircraft to the Midlands and force the Germans to switch to bombing other targets. Meanwhile Hitler's invasion fleet assembles and the RAF launches a sortie in force when it's coming. And that is ignoring things like the Brits having the world's biggest navy and the 30 divisions sitting in England.
Wyatt Fisher
First of all misidentifying the radars is what gave the brits the initial advantage. Both sides had short airtime fighters, meaning the brits couldn't patrol their airspace and had to rely on an early warning system to scramble. The germans, in the most crucial decision of the war, determined their recon photos to be of 'civilian structures'. Hence they didn't attack the radars meaning german fighters had a few minutes of fighting time vs. the spitfires being completely fresh at the beginning of each engagement. Secondly, measured in number of aircraft, and more crucially airfields, the brits were nearly completely exhausted when the Germans switched to terror bombing. Churchill, realizing this, decided to sacrifice British civilians by ordered a daring daytime raid on Berlin which, as expected, provoked Hitler to retaliate. Had Hitler not retaliated, the coastal airfields would be reduced to nothing within days. With no radar or airfields, the fight for the southern half of Britain on equal terms would be a German walkover. What you'd have left would be a Scottish production of aircraft that could not patrol the aerospace due to fuel depletion rate and had no info from the coast on when to scramble. The navy would have had to pull back leaving the entire empire open for Japan. Further, a navy without an airforce couldn't do anything at all. However, had the Germans went ahead and invaded, Stalin would likely break the pact and attack them from the rear. The reason the Germans got so far into Russia was because the Russians had left their defensive positions and were ready for attack, not defence. The most likely outcome would be a full scale German terror bombing of southern Britain however, and an invasion only after the Germans were ready. It's not certain whether an invasion would be successful with the soviet threat, and it's not certain if Germany could wait for long enough without the U.S. freaking out and dumping their entire arsenal in Scotland, but it is certain the battle of Britain would be won and an invasion successful (at the beaches at least) had it not been for some dude looking at some pictures of radars and going "those are civilian structures".
John Garcia
Also, the primary goal of seelöwe was a scare tactic. The Germans were very clear on desiring a peace treaty on 'good terms' with the British rather than an invasion. With subs and aircraft blocking the island, they hoped to achieve this much rather than any last resort invasion.
Blake Lopez
Oh yeah, this is totally gonna happen. Good old union-busting nazi germany. banning unions was one of the first things hitler did, get bent
Ian Scott
This isn't even good alternative history.
Nolan Robinson
how? unlikely which wouldn't happen which they wouldn't, they still wanted Alsaice-Lorraine and iirc their demands even up to the end of the war included that and chunks of Denmark, Wallonia being carved off of Belgium, and I think the annexation of the Netherlands. Right, like they promised after the Sudtenland right before invading Poland. produced under slave-labor conditions which only existed to get around the Versaille treaty Beats the shit out of paying them a decent wage, just like the Orpo do whenever they try to strike for better working conditions wouldn't happen bara a shit which the Nazis didn't have or try to have which is/was meaningless empty buzzwordy memeshit which is spooky right, I'm sure the people of Czechoslovakia and Poland wouldn't keep fighting for years after in a bloody ulsar of resistance like the people of Iraq or Vietnam, and that that definitely wouldn't require millions of boots on the ground or massacres of the civilain population on a fairly large scale or probably both to keep control of the territories in question. Nor would there be intense revanchism in France, the UK and the Russian rump state. Why would they do that? What prevents them from doubling down on their corporatism? Which would last exactly until they had the men and the technology for Round 3. less likely with a defeated USSR I don't think either side would stop at a 'partial' victory.
What video game mechanic is this supposed to be an explanation of? You mean the thing they thought they had a method to control but didn't? The thing that, had they continued their research apace wile rejecting >muh jooo pseudoscience, would have probably irradiated a part of the German rather than the American heartland? That only works with real nukes. Those would never have flown, dude designing them fucked up part of the math. What is naval aviation? What is Iceland? What is sneaking a nuke into a city on a truck or something? which they wouldn't have lolno, and stom fapping to the non-sex scenes in Harry Turteldove novels Yes this would be easier than just crossing the lines, switching sides, giving intel and hopefully being given a rifle instead of getting gulag'd Oh, so it's a Paradox game and not a Turtledove novel, got it. That's not how that would've worked. Nobody knew much about the long-term effects of radiation on people or the environment, nukes when they were developed were seen as mostly just a way to bomb cities with one plane instead of a few wings of them. They wouldn't be used as a deterrant as they are now, both the US leadership or Hitler would probably use them as fast as they got them. If the US has the bomb, why didn't they use it on Japan like they did historically? Or launch the planned Operation Olympic invasion if they didn't do that?
Ayden Collins
Lol Russia ain't falling. Hitler's best chance in real life was to launch a surprise attack when he did, after that Russia just gets stronger and stronger after industrializing and reconstituting their officer corps.
Never mind that Britain is never changing sides to fight for the Nazis, or accepting a peace short of total defeat. There is no way to defeat Britain in an air campaign alone, too many advantages on their side, and Sealion was a pipe dream.
Also, Hitler had this retarded notion that he could get the West on his side still, and that was never ever going to happen. He played soft and couldn't play any other way, because he had to strike Russia before they could grow in power. Everything Hitler did rested on a gamble that the West would embrace fascism.
Aiden Price
This is exclusively historical nazi may day celebrations. It is not "improbable" that this "would happen". It happened. In real life. No need for speculation. The labour front and labour services are both real German organizations. There was only one union in nazi Germany - the nationalized state sanctioned one.
It was generous for the philosophical example.
Jacob Rodriguez
Identifying radars as radars and not civilian structures and not falling for Churchills bait to start terror bombing instead of concentrating on the air fields. The British would leave the war following a total blockade, systemic terror bombing, starvation, and an impending invasion. The condition would most likely be at least joint deployment in France. After this, it is not impossible the Brits would 'assist' the German occupation of eastern Europe to prevent German expansion and ensure at least partial sovereignty. If Hitler would be too disagreeable here, he might get assassinated successfully by Germans thinking he's mad. Again it was a philosophical example to keep the USSR and avoid an all out nazi victory. Elsass would of course be annexed. The Netherland and dutch Belgium would become a unified puppet as they were 'Germanic'. France would not be allowed to re-arm at all, and probably the Germans would keep some forces alongside the Brits so both sides could keep each other in check. The Germans officially proposed this. telegraph.co.uk/history/10336126/Nazis-offered-to-leave-western-Europe-in-exchange-for-free-hand-to-attack-USSR.html Hess even flew to Britain on a retarded quest to broker peace. They didn't want 'chunks' of Denmark they wanted Schleswig-Holstein, and they got it too. No. It happened each year in real life nazi Germany on may first. This was a direct quotation from a direct real life equivalent of Hitlers most famous speech. I did not say "since the end of underground partisan operations in annexed Poland". You fail to comprehend how the nazis utilized anti-partisan tactics. Königsberg becomes Petersburg, East Germany becomes West Russia, Warzaw pact becomes Nurnberg pact. Of course they could win. A booming mixed economy legitimized only by the approval of the labourer would not try to appease the globalist elite that it had tried to partially gas to death since it feared its influenced rivalled that of der partei. The MAD doctrine would not permit a round 3. Not defeated, and they would receive support from a panicked U.S.
Joshua Cruz
Same Einstein used in his motivation for dropping out of Manhattan. Kurt Diebner made a proposal for one in mid '45 and distribution is done by conventional means. Also it would be deployed off the U.S. coast so if they fucked up they'd irradiate some sea urchins. They didn't refute the bomb due to jew pseudo-science they refuted it due to missing a few 0's in potency of energy release on a briefing due to conversion error, leading the German high command to conclude the bomb wouldn't have a high enough power to weight ratio to be worth the spending which had become scarce due to British bombing. Amerikabombers were a project of hundreds of prototype jet and propeller aircraft by different companies with capacity for delivering heavy ordinance to the U.S. heartland, launching from Germany. They did fly and became several post-war allied bomber and civilian designs which revolutionized air travel. Carrier based aviation could not deliver a full scale nuke. It is possible a sea launched bomber could refuel in the Atlantic and then brave German total air supremacy and ground to air supremacy to deliver a bomb on a dutch city, provided it wasn't interrupted in the Atlantic by German naval supremacy. The most potent use of such a weapon, I imagine, would have been to attack German naval formations and clear a path for an invasion. You have to remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki were during total air and naval supremacy by bombers launched from 2500km away (vs 6000km for the U.S) But again, the second the nazis realize the U.S. has a nuke and how potent it is, it will take days until they can send dirty bombs and weeks until they can send nukes. The US could of course invade Canada and then go to Iceland and then down into Norway, or they could make the brits 'betray' the Germans and send a stowed bomber to the U.K., assemble it there, and then surprise the Germans, much like the real bomb raids happened. No point in crossing the lines when the goal is to re-enforce France to prevent the Germans from re-deploying in full force. Darling radiation poisoning was well known and documented due to uranium mining. Not very well understood but still whoever got the nuke first could try to deliver one for a few days, say against a frontline section, before the other side got one as well. Successful delivery would depend on air supremacy. It was impossible for the Germans to bomb Britain after the Brits gained air supremacy. They most likely would have if the Germans didn't get it first. And at that point the Germans would be reluctant to give it to Japan. It would more likely be used as a bargaining chip.
Julian Perry
No. Because as the bourgeois has figured out, you can just keep workers content with the spoils of imperialism, and they won't revolt. So while Germany in this case would have been a SocDem paradise, everyone outside of it would have been reduced to poverty and starvation.
Jason Thompson
Thank you for addressing the actual topic
Cooper Edwards
Porky has realized that workers won't be happy with the spoils of war, so it would either be a corporate dystopia or in this case, a SocDem utopia. However those "Germania" proletarians who are protected by the state will at best be classcucked to death, but all the "unfit" and slave workers necessary for such a state to run will still be very receptive to leftism, not to mention any soviet partisans left over from the war would be a constant thorn in the side. The NSDAP wouldn't go back to SA and st.rasserist roots either, not after winning a war with its corporate and aristocratic supporters.
A victorious "Germania" would have to deal with an incredibly bloody guerrilla war, dystopian levels of privatization and genocide for the workers as per nazi policies, and a reluctant Britain that still has its armed forces relatively intact. In this AU it's a miracle that Germany even managed to win the war so soundly, but it will need another it if wants to last another decade. But in short no, there's still a world outside of Europe.
I think not but AU is so ridiculous, why didn't you make a thread with this question by itself?