Transgender issues from a non-SJW left standpoint

wtf i love gulags now

What if the urinal consents tho

I don't know, it seems like a remnant of puritanism that we as a country have labored under for so long. I've been in neuter bathrooms abroad and its no big fucking deal, no one gets raped, stop legislating about fucking bathrooms.

half the country can barely scrape by day to day and you are crying about something that

Let trans people live how they want and leave them alone. It's not "degeneracy" to let people do what they want with their bodies in their own private lives. It's no skin off my back if somebody wants to identify as something or other

Well, make a thread about that then.

That's stupid and will make toilet lines ten times bigger and toilets themselves much more inconvenient.

I don't know any trannies at all (as I'm not actually American), but I know that they exist even here.

It is my call to make. Are you saying that we should never criticize any choices or lifestyles or decisions of anyone no matter what? Probably not. In that case, we should criticize and reject something that we consider wrong.
No, it would be worse cumulatively.

Ignoring the fallacy that we can only focus on one issue at a time what I want is for it to stop being such a big deal. Just let people shit in the toilet they wish to and be done with the issue. Bathroom warriors are fucking cancer.

Think you're leaving out the last part m8, and we both know why

Are you retarded? You could still have the same amount (and type if you want urinals) of toilets in one room.

Americans are moral crusaders and always have been. They are always fighting for something and burning witches, even if that something is exactly the opposite from what it was several decades before.

We cannot live anyone "alone"in a public space by definition. Anyone can do whatever the hell he wants behind locked doors of course, but I'm not discussing that.

Don't agree necessarily with these guys but here's a skeptical criticism:
socialistworkerspartyengland.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-trans-agenda-is-surgical-homophobia.html?m=1

It's everyone's call to call you out on it too.
Isn't feeling safe from harm and sexual tension my right? If the person is gay, then there won't be any sexual tension between them and members of the opposite sex. Clearly, the solution is to keep them away from toilets of their sex.

People who are so mentally ill that they maintain an artificial hormonal imbalance and opt for surgical genital mutilation need therapy, not pandering. It's like telling anorexics that they should lose weight. This whole idea that we're supposed to humor and applaud this dysfunction is perverse in the extreme. Reinforcing self-destructive delusions in others is not a political stance; it's sociopathic.

So should beating up reactionaries.
lol, ok let's keep primitive social norms because you're uncomfortable.

There is literally no point to being a Brocialist unless you're an absolute retard who can't distinguish between reactionary propaganda and actual social left arguments.

It doesn't fucking matter.

The past few years have been a retarded clusterfuck. When I was a kid, people were willing to accept that someone undergoing chemical/surgical changes to correspond with their gender may as well be considered that gender.

The bathroom shit is autistic as fuck.
Keep in mind that gendered bathrooms were a voluntary social system before those laws were passed. If someone had a problem, there was nothing stopping them from doing anything. Making it something the cops get called over or have a duty to intervene in is idiotic.

Here's my suggestion - if someone is clearly trans, whether the "pass" or even whether they've undergone SRS or not - then they should probably go in the bathroom that corresponds with their gender. I don't believe in passing a law on the matter one way or the other. If they cause a problem, they can be kicked out. If they cause a serious problem, then you can call the cops or STASI or whatever because they were probably already doing something illegal.

If someone who presents as a woman, say - whether they're ugly, or fat, or even don't 'pass' at all - and they'd feel more comfortable going in the women's restroom, then that's probably the right way to do it. And if a drag queen - even if they look like a beautiful girl - feels more comfortable in the men's, because they don't identify as a woman, that's fine too.

On misgendering - I don't sympathize with people who get uptight about it, in part because I've encountered some who are really defensive about their gender even when I'm not questioning or mocking it. I think that such behavior towards them is stupid, so I try to remain considerate of such things, but people can still sometimes get up in arms. I don't consider it a huge issue, and accidental misgendering (or ambiguous gendering with now-neutral friend terms like "dude" or "guys") is a non-issue to me.

If you're just misgendering someone again and again because you know it pisses them off, and they've asked you to stop - then it's an issue, in the sense that it could become verbal abuse. I don't see it as a special issue outside of such contexts.

I THINK WE'LL CALL THIS ONE TIFFANY, HAHAH HEY TIFFANY I'D LOVE TO DO THOSE NAILS

*every police officer, politician and judge screaming along with you in what was once a Wal-mart*

What does that have to do with the current debate surrounding the millions of people who can't afford, access, or choose not to undergo treatment?

Except for, you know, the fact that proles have no power over any building not under their name.

Most buildings are privatized to reactionary porkies who would never spend the money to assist the conditions of proles. 99% of buildings don't offer transfolk the option to simply "go in the bathroom that corresponds with their gender." 99% of buildings limit the thinking behind bathrooms to man or woman.

If they did, there would be no debate at all you moron.

Our country's states centralize the final say on the matter. If you don't believe in reforming state power in some way, then you may as well not even have an opinion on the matter.

Neither do I, but it is a winning issue for the Left and we should milk it to ruin right wing credibility and the sanctioned institutions that protect their bigotry.

Or we could just offer non-binary and separate bathrooms. Really simple solution, really.

Honestly, the liberal ones are all potential comrades. Probably best to respect them and educate them (if they're not already hardcore leftists).
Remember that leftism is to help your community and fellow human at work and at home. Supporting health care and acceptance is good shit

agree

My own opinion is that persons who wish to move to the other category of human should be indulged. I see little wrong with them, bar the need to impress on them that they are not entitled to demand the romantic interest of others. Silly people who wish to claim to be something other than man (a male human) or woman (a female human) should be allowed wear and behave however they wish, but should not be indulged in demands for new pronouns and the like any more than we would indulge people who claimed to be wolves in that belief; a firm rebuke is in order.

I firmly agree with your position on lavatory access, bar an exception for those in the process of moving from one group to the other, who will tend to use the facilities quietly and without disruption

It has to do with the kind of vicious, idiotic, antagonism and controversy that's leveled at trans people right now. I'm saying people used to not give a fuck, and now they're all "OH YEEEEAH, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR GENDER???!"

I'm talking about if there was a problem with the trans people going in the bathroom. Like if they actually did something wrong or caused some kind of damage. I'm saying, legally, it was unnecessary to bar them.

I have been in bathrooms not corresponding to my sex or gender before. 99% of buildings do not actively police who goes in what bathroom.

Passing a law to prevent them from going into a specific bathroom is idiotic, and has happened. The current debate (and most of my post on this topic) is in the context of that, not just how bathrooms were prior to those laws.

The "debate" was stoked on the national level by the idiotic NC laws. It wasn't brought up spontaneously, it was a direct reaction to conservative idiocy.

I do have an opinion on the matter - wholesale state or nationwide reforms dictating who can or can't go in a bathroom are nonsense. It's like asking if we should pass more free trade laws or ban trade of any kind altogether. Given options like that, I'd pass on "reform."

I don't think we have the leverage you're suggesting on the issue, and even if we did I don't think it's urgent that we do more than reverse the areas where laws have taken steps backwards.

Are you talking about in a hypothetical state, or in the current capitalist US?

It'd be a tremendous effort to look like idpol-oriented toilet-grabbers, in the current scenario.

...

Not much of a fucking problem if they're voluntarily deferring treatment, is it? Sort of indicative of not needing any treatment in the first place, isn't it?

It definitely is though, people can have all sorts of reasons for not undergoing treatment, maybe they think it won't help things, maybe they're skeptical, maybe they're comfortable with how they look but still experience gender dysphoria, maybe they don't want to risk complications, maybe they know for a fact that they would be ridiculed by society for seeking it. You don't know these people at all, there are all sorts of valid reasons for transgender people to refuse treatment of any sort, everyone has evolving circumstances but using the same bathroom as 40 year old men shouldn't be forced on anyone.

I didn't say that these people who refuse treatment, need or don't need it. I was simply considering them when it comes to the bathroom debate. Reactionary mong you are.

It's not immoral
It's not something to praise either
It is what it is
Let people do what they want if it isn't affecting anyone else.
Only fascists crack the sads over other people do things that in no way impacts on them.

Serious question: why won't you let white nationalists have their ethnostate if "it doesn't affect anyone else"?

NOBODY GETS AN ETHNOSTATE

WAY TO FOSTER REACTIONARY BULLSHIT AND LEGITAMIZE RACIALIST THINKING. WE WILL BE SUFFERING FROM NEOCONS AND CAPITAL AGAIN IN NO TIME

Because it does? It will see people die/have their lives forceably uprooted for no reason at all

Is it, though?

White nationalism is an ideology. Gender dysphoria is not. No one said a white nationalist ethnostate doesn't affect anyone else - but who's stopping them from creating one?

Trans people aren't asking for a trans-state, they're asking for autonomy over their own bodies and human decency in their treatment.

If white nationalists want to fuck off into neutral ocean and start an "ethnostate" on a barge, I think that's probably legal. But people would probably be born there, so I think it's a terrible idea in the same way that I think Wahhabist states are a terrible idea. You would be building a society on a fundamentally violent, repressive ideology built on celebrating a culture that never actually existed. If they want to ask for a country on land that is already part of a country, then they're no more entitled to take it for themselves than anyone else - so they don't get it.

You don't know what you're talking about

the article itself was quite strange, as it doesn't really engage with the issue itself, but rather just flatly denies it existing. it equaltes gender and sex in a clumsy manner I think, abandoning the whole concept of gender as a performative identity is bad analysis. if, say some woman in the prewar era dressed, worked and voted as a man they would socially be men for all purposes.
I haven't heard of any big drive by the 'transgenderists' to equate homosexuality with repressed transgenderism, is it really a thing

You have provided 0 (zero) reasoning as to why your spooks are more important than theirs.

Mongoloid detected- though that could have easily been deduced from your flag. The overwhelming majority of trans people are comfortable using the bathroom of the gender they transitioned to… because they transitioned. That's kind of the whole point of transitioning. The fact that

I'm from bumfuck Southern Louisiana so your claim is laughable here, can you be more specific?

It's not about being policed into bathrooms, it's about nonbinary people being forced to pick 1 of 2 potentially hostile environments when they are in the situation of needing to use the restroom when not at home. Which is like, half the time or more. Someone who identifies as a woman should not have to enter a small area alone with one exit and 40 year old Trumpanzees. You'll never win that argument.

Why should they have no safe or comfortable option while cis people do?

The debate was stoked by a surge of trans activists who pointed out that it was a significant issue. People didn't even think twice about it until le crazy sjws brought it to light. The NC laws came in direct response.

Ok well we won't live in an anarchist society for quite some time, so again, your opinion surrounding reforms is worthless. Real people will make legal reforms to suit their needs as long as state power is centralized, trans friendly or not. If you still retain that opinion, then you're effectively quitting the debate.

It really doesn't matter if something is urgent or not. Something doesn't have to be urgent for you to support it. If you're talking about a matter of time and tactic, then yes we can have some discussion. It can be urgent for people directly affected that don't spend all day at home and if that's true, then it doesn't really matter whether it effects me or not but then again, I'm not a selfish reactionary.

It'd be a tremendous effort to look like idpol-oriented toilet-grabbers, in the current scenario.
I would say both, really and can you clarify that second sentence for me, please?

Wanted to make another point. Shouldn't it be considered a good thing that there is controversy? Why is that a bad thing if it's to discontinue something really negative.

Slavery, for example, was all the norm back in the day and you better believe rogue activists got shit for, yep, "starting controversy".

What? What spooks do I have?

Except I never made this argument.
Not even with regards to just trans people.

My reply to you was telling you why comparing transgender people to white supremacists is false equivalence. If you read my other posts in this thread, it should be clear that you're not actually arguing with anything I've said about bathrooms. Even the post you replied to initially was not about this.

Ok, in Georgia, people used to not give a fuck. Also gay people. Also many lawmakers in recent history started giving way more fucks if NC is anything to judge by at all.

Overall, it seems like more people give a lot more fucks in a very bad way.

They should. But the idea of 'desegregating' bathrooms comes at potential risk for cis people with regards to the same issue, and just building a third bathroom in every building that lacks a neutral one already? The amount of effort for the results just doesn't seem worth it to me. Let alone to make a bunch of people do that over comfort and safety when I presume that both cis and trans women face issues of 'comfort and safety' just walking down public streets.

The NC laws may as well have been a response to trans people in general. The "what if a pervert goes into the women's bathroom!" rubbish had been around for a long time afaik.

No I'm not.
I can literally just oppose any reform I don't agree with - like everyone who has an opinion about anything.

I'm saying that the economic left stands to potentially alienate allies if they spend as much time on making private property owners add more toilets as they spend on leftist economics. It also bears potential to misrepresent their economic positions as identity-based capitalist reformism.

It's a medical issue, leave it at that. People experience their particular anxieties, sit down with their doctor, figure out an approach that works for them (talking cure, behavioral, hormones, surgery - whatever), and socialized medicine pays for it all. Toilets and "misgendering" are things people should figure out within their own communities, not something any outside force should intervene in (neither the state nor online mobs) absent clear abuse.

It's a bad thing in the sense that what a lot of the current approach to lgbt politics seems to entail is a lot of shitflinging - frequently within the community. Controversy about something is fine. Controversy at groups of vaguely defined people is generally stupid, provided said people aren't defined on being porkies. The trans "controversy" is something which has been marketed and commodified as products like Catelyn Jenner, who somehow was the object of lots of righteous indignation in spite of essentially being an ethical vacuum ill-equipped to represent much of anyone.

It seems like there's a level on which the question has turned more to whether or not trans people should even exist or be respected, and this is the controversy which baffles me, as someone who grew up in a time and place where trans women were generally seen as more sympathetic and less harmful than gay men.

Get out of here

Ony one restroom, four categories of stalls with pictograms like pics related.
Getting rid of idpol will solve this.
Idpol aside, the real problem is that some people feel like strangers in their own body. The easiest way to solve their problem is the best. If psychotherapy is the easiest way, go for psychotherapy. If it's surgery, ok with it too. I guess the answer will vary from one case to another.

Gender dysphoria and transgenderism should not be glorified nor looked down on. Focus should be on good research of possible causes to find more treatment options.

Misgendering is not something a "trans" person should take offence to if it's not meant to be offensive, it should be just accepted that different people use pronouns differently. Ideally gender from language should be voluntarily phased out to reflect how gender is a spook.

Public toilets should be just a single room with individual stalls that have full height walls and proper doors and have a security camera or attendant in the sink area. This basically solves everything from both sides that people go on about.

honestly OP, you are reactionary and retarded, but I'll answer your question anyways.
All bathrooms should be gender neutral. In bars, clubs and generally places where there are a lot of drunk people, have urinal stalls, which are for people with dicks, purely for convenience.
Genders and names follow similar social norms. They're not super important in most social contexts, it's acceptable to get it wrong the first few times, purposefully mispronouncing a name/misgendering someone is a dick move.

agree.

You utterly disingenuous shitbag. What you have described is this :

Invite open dialogue about it.
Toilets aren't something I care about.
Just don't harass people in the bathroom, and use whatever one your comfortable with. Every other solution is a liberal one, because it's demanding that capitalist enterprise cater to these people. The point is to do away with capitalist enterprise, and then we can implement whatever toilets we want.
Secondly, it's easier to help these people if there's no profit motive in the way.

fuck off humanist.

Reminder: Public toilets are not """safe spaces""": google.co.uk/search?q=woman raped in public toilet

You don't know what that word means.
Gender itself is a spook, which is why I have no reason to care what they call themselves.

What you need to understand is that transgenders are mentally ill and need help. There are only 2 genders, thats it.

People should respect the identities of others but it's not a problem if in their mind they're thinking "this person is a loony", nor is it a problem if cultures are whatever-normative. The problem with racism/sexism/homophobia/xenophobia/et cetera are the material consequences of them under non-communist systems, not "wrongthink" or whatever.

Abolish the open-air urinal. Stalls for everyone. Make all bathrooms gender neutral. Problem solved.

It's clearly not "Fixing the problem" for everyone if some people choose not to take it. Transitioning isn't a happy cake walk for everyone, there are all sorts of medical and social conditions that can just as easily make you more miserable or not change much at all. Drop the Shoe0nhead videos and actually read a book please.

Fuck you, I'm not waiting in line to pee. Urinals are the best.

I don't know why I should explain nuance to you, if you're just going to be a dumb fuck reactionary about everything btw.

This is dumb as shit and would make things worse while at the same time, solving nothing at all.

close. gender isnt real. there are two sexes. if you think you're born the wrong sex, you have mental problems. that's really all there is to say it.

stopped reading

Those people are choosing not to take it because they do not have an actual problem.

No-one said the process was perfect. Again, if these people do not want to transition, they by definition do not have a problem in need of treatment.

No, you need to stop listening to the likes of retards Riley Dennis and Zinnia Jones and actually read some scientific literature

For persons like yourself, """nuance""" is a synonym for sophistry and calling people are reactionary is just whining about disagreement. Do you have any arguments or are you just going to whine?

Let me go back to your original "pol" tier logic because you're just repeating the exact same claim while ignoring contradictory examples.

Yes it is a problem because they are not "voluntarily differing treatment". That was your pinheaded assertion, not mine. I wasn't even talking about people who personally don't want it at all, I was talking about the people who deny the treatment for all sorts of serious and potentially devastating reasons and that is a "fucking problem" because these reasons shouldn't be impacting their choices at all, and yet they are. Trans-phobia and discrimination is as much a part of the problem as is limited access to treatment.

Secondly, it is entirely irrelevant if someone is totally opposed to treatment because they should still have the option and many of these people do like having the option because they know it would be retarded to push it off the table when they don't know what the future holds for them. A lot of these people do consider it a problem in the same way that somebody with 4 shiny tires would consider it a problem if they had to cross the US without a spare tire. Nice try though.

If people are experiencing serious gender dysphoria but don't have the option of treatment, then that is a problem regardless of whether they want it or not at any given moment and that is because circumstances are everchanging and fluid for people. This is why there are women who are horrified at the idea of having an abortion but would still like the option on the serious offchance that something goes wrong. Life is complicated and senseless problems arise when retarded fucks like you stick to Holla Forums tier logic instead of considering real life scenarios.

Care to explain where exactly there is "no fucking problem" for these people?

Why would I read what you consider "scientific" literature, when I could just hop on Steven Crowder's channel and post your exact same shitty arguments? Seriously, your Holla Forums tier logic doesn't require any scientific reading at all. Kill yourself, I'm done here. I'm not going to listen to you whine and moan while rephrasing the exact same claim and sticking your head up your ass.

it's not a "big drive" in that it's currently very fringe and only exists seriously among people just starting to come of age, but it's definitely a thing I have seen unironically espoused every now and then. i have heard thie idea of homosexuality as latent transgenderism (usually with some vague, half-informed reference to samoan fa'afafine or other third gender cultural practice) from the some of the kids I've met when organising for demos and shit, but it's hard to tell what they really think because kids that age are inevitably full of shit.

other than that, it's mostly just online shit as far as i can tell. if you've ever seen those "pink pill" memes floating around on twitter, most of the time it's just shitposting, but you will occasionally come across somebody who is taking that seriously. and i've heard stories / seen threads from time to time where confused teen boys are being bullied into thinking they're transgirls and being told to try getting HRT because they're finding other boys attractive and may be into some superficially "girly" things. Problem is it's so hard to filter this shit and it's such a hot-button idpol issue right now you can never be sure what's legit and what's countersignal shit from soc-con right wingers. But I've seen enough that smells real and had one solid, worrying real life encounter that I am convinced there is a small, but real and possibly very unhealthy strain in trans activism that bears watching.

if i had to look into my crystal ball, i would say that as we see more "gay conservatives" and other rightwingers and porkies being openly homo over the next, say, 10 years or so, it has a chance of gaining more traction. Mostly because "progressive" politics of this kind tends to mean very little except transgressing against whatever is socially acceptable among conservative middle class layers at any given time.

oops, meant for

Call others Holla Forums and you don't even know the meaning of the word "deferring". Which leads me on to

You're not providing contradictory examples. You're autistically throwing out points about completely unrelated topics such as:

That's not someone voluntarily deferring treatment, you utter mongoloid.

Only thing you said which is in any way relevant is:
If the opprobrium of others is sufficient cause to deter someone from transition, then their dysphoria is obviously not so severe as to require that treatment and should handled in other ways not that you want to hear that.

Clearly, given that you are under the impression that shouting Holla Forums and vomiting out received opinions is a substitute for knowledge. You are not worth listening to on this topic.

Scientifically, according to the NIH. Being trans is a genetic disorder. Herm genitalia is solid evidence of this. More common evidence of this are, for example, genetic malformations which either cause a lack of hormone creation or double the amount of hormones opposite of your pelvic genitals.

This is evident in blood tests of trans people prior to them getting hormone treatment.

All of this being said: as a cuntboy, I am sick and tired of hearing this attention-whoring bullshit of 349285628562903876 genders.

From a non-SJW standpoint, we need to take a scientific approach rather than an approach with daddy issues.

You are one of 5 genders
male
female
male with a vag
female with a dick
all of the above