What does Holla Forums think of prostitution?

Lol, you married someone to get laid?
I don't think anyone was arguing the against the convenience of prostitutes if you want to get your dick wet. They aren't that great if you want to start a family and get kids, and shit like that.

are you Italian? You sound like an Italian.

Isn't there a difference between being coerced by the rules of nature and being coerced by THE SYSTEM?

Prostitution has existed long before modern capitalism and factories.

When you don't have the option to live of the land because it is owned by Megacorp you're coerced by the system.

Then isn't it necessary for the prostitutes to own their own brothels and make their own corporation and thereby cease their means of reproduction?

I don't understand your point. Feudalism was also an oppressive and coercive system.
And how would prostitution be a rule of nature, what does that even mean?

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lmao, is this a common attitude in italy?

Well don't you consider feelings, sexual or otherwise to be a product of natural biology?

Isn't it only natural behaviour for humans to want this as a service, just as they desire food and shelter and are willing to exchange value for them?

How will unattractive people get laid under communism if there's no whores? State mandated sex buddies?

I think so

Idiot. I never been with a prostitute and never will. Half of them come from ex socialist dreams and thanks to gorby now they have to get selled as slave by an albanian pimp. You got 0 understanting on how prostitution works. In korea prostitutes were fucking slaves, grannies and nieces all working in same brothel. Also while I agree that marriage and dating is more expensive being divorced myself, I can still get my dose of pussae when I go to the pub. I'm not a cheap fuck, if I can't fuck I don't aliment slavery

It wouldn't be slavery or as open to abuse if it was decriminalized and regulated.

Nope. Go to a german brothel, they are fucking slaves too.
I know that under capitalism there is no ethical consumption but what the fuck.

Personally I don't think is any worse than any other european country. But if you mean getting married to get laid, no. It's not saudi arabia, if one motherfucker want to get laid can. One night stands are difficult as fuck tho

In theory, in practice, such as in Amsterdam, human trafficking continues and exploitation in that industry is just as bad if not worse than before since it's somewhat legitimized.

So what you are saying is that someone who is trafficked as a sex slave to be a prostitute is going to be one even if it is regulated?

What a surprise, then isn't the issue more to do with human trafficking. As a native to the country you are better for sure working in a regulated industry.

I find it extremely hard to believe that people are arguing against regulation and worker's rights. What result do you think that will bring?

Banning prostitution does not stop it, clearly.

Most of the prostitutes in "regulated and legalized" netherlands are human trafficked.

That as an issue is related to lax border controls and an indifferent concern towards migration and it's effect on the easing of the ability for the wealthy to exploit the poor.

Me: Labor in inherently coercive under capitalism
Idiot: Obviously
Me: Capitalism is historically a recent phenomenon.
Idiot: Obviously
Me: Therefor-
Idiot: HOLD ON A SECOND.

Hmm yes this totally invalidates my point that it doesn't matter if you "regulate" or "legalize" a line of "work" that literally has to kidnap and enslave people in order to exist, because it doesnt impact it, it just allows for more open conduction of slavery.

If refugees were being human trafficked to work as a domestic servants into a first world nation, is the answer to ban domestic service?

Or is it to deal more properly with the ability to enslave human beings in the 21st century.

I doubt those poor girls would sell their body if they have a chance. Human trafficking is an isusse but it related to prositution. Prostitutes get trafficked to be prostitutes. They are not workers but slaves, banning prostitutes in a capitalist system will do shit, in a communist society there is no reason for them to continue. I mean are so beta that you can get pussy in a moneyless society?
I

The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a pimp.

Even if you outlaw an activity, given no other choice people will still carry it out. Keeping it banned puts them at further harm. The fact that slaves can exist at all in a regulated industry shows that the regulations and workers rights are the issue. Not the line of work.

The coercion is by capitalism itself. While it's wage labor prostitution is different since the MoP isn't owned by the John paying the wage.

Banning slavery, aka banning "domestic serantry" or prostitution, generally helps quite a bit against the ability to enslave people.

Is banning a domestic "service" that is humiliating, degragating and oppresive for who does it is it such a bad idea? You'll get your pussy another way, leave them girls alone

No it doesn't, it creates a black market that makes sex workers prosecuted by both the state and criminal gangs. Even amnesty international thinks so.

Yet both human trafficking and prostitution are banned in some countries and it still takes place…the crux of the argument is that an unregulated illegal trade is better than an open regulated one. A prostitutes union would be far more effective at protecting these women than banning a 'humiliating, degrading and oppressive' form of employment. You know like being a porn actress.

This. I've talked to prostitutes in burgerland (don't judge me I'm a decent guy I swear) and they complain about the trouble they need to go through to do what they do, how it makes it easier for people to abuse them since they aren't eager to go to police.

Almost all of them have been caught at some point by a cop staging as a john

Proofs? Burgerland has the most people imprisoned on earth, so banning it doesn't work either. Amnesty international did a study that showed legalizing it was best.

I dont think you guys understand what is fucking going on here.

NO WOMEN OR PEOPLE FROM FIRST WORLD COUNTRIES IN THIS QUESTION WANT TO BECOME WHORES, THEY HAVE SOCIAL SAFETY NETS AND WELFARE. SO THEY HAVE TO LITTERALLY ENSLAVE PEOPLE FROM ELSEWHERE, SHIP THEM IN AND MAKE THEM BE WHORES. MAKING PROSTITUTION, A "LINE OF WORK" WITH NEXT TO NO NATIVE PEOPLE IN IT ILLEGAL WILL REDUCE SLAVERY. STOP VIEWING EVERYTHING THROUGH YOUR YANKY ASS LENS, AMERICA IS A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY WITH NO SOCIAL SAFETY AT ALL.

Preach comrade. People here are just thirsty as fuck because are betas /r9k/ woman haters that wouldn't get pussy even with a lamborghini

The social security net can only provide a very poor quality of life and makes you reliant on the state which in my opinion can be just as degrading as being a prostitute and you can earn a lot more money being a prostitute. Noone would pay money for what I have to sell but I digress.

I get sex more than you probably but I still think there needs to be some kind of social service for these loser betas that lets them get laid even under communism. Maybe super realistic sexbots.

same poster, also a lot of them are drug addicts.

You are completely out of touch

Maybe you should start sucking dick then mate. Unlike whatever shithole you live in, wellfare does buy you some kind of liveable life here, especially with all the other benefits such as rent-financing and other deductions.

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this is autistic dogmatic theoretical nonsense from someone with little to no life experience or understanding of present day western liberal society

The unfortunate reality is that there are entire slices of the male population that are at present incapable of having a "healthy" relationship with a woman, these men are already a minor danger to society, you do not want them to be not fucking at all nigga thats a BAD idea. Prostitution is not gonna dissapear anytime soon and you want it to be somewhat regulated so that the women get at least some protection and scum like 81 and the siptars cant move in(which they of course already have)

The problem compacts however if you swing in the other direction and go full legalisation as well; not only are you basically embracing criminal elements like the above mentioned, you are seperating "normal" pimps from the even nastier stuff. You dont want these two things seperated, if 18+ prostitution is completely legal, you are still going to have a criminal element that is offering other services and you will not be able to control them because they will have become for the most part independent of the now legal mileu.

basically you want to keep all the scum in one place where you can see it, and although you shouldnt criminalize sex workers or even johns it should still be illegal or at the very least under a very watchful eye

Its not an easy question by any means and although im sure there is a right answer nobody has really figured it out yet, both the criminalisation model and the legal model have a whole host of problems

See

I don't care, if it's that big a deal do what says and make robot waifus.

Then illegalize the trafficking/pimping as well as the purchase of sex without criminalizing the prostitutes themselves.

Either way you're getting fucked. Are we really gonna argue over what is more degrading, not being able to sustain yourself or your family with minimum wage employment, being disabled or unemployable? Not being able to have a family, all these things are supposed to be human rights you know? So what these women choose a career that is illegal and poorly regulated because muh foreign sex slaves. Well fuck foreigners they shouldn't even be in the country in the first place. The obvious solution is to ban immigration and have a highly regulated sex industry, like the porn industry but better.

Drug addiction is treated as a disease here, so addiction curing is covered under universal healthcare too. You can litterally get free top-tier heroin if you enroll in a programme, which doesn't consist of anything more than counselling and medical checks.

Of course I consider feelings as a product of biology, in no way am I saying that prostitution is unnatural behavior, all behavior is rooted in biology is natural.
But you called it a law of nature, and implied that this is an inescapable feature of society unrelated to the (economic) system.
Sexual feelings are inescapable, the need for food and shelter is inescapable, but the exchange of sexual services for food and shelter is a feature of a economic system.

No trade means no trade.

Hey man don't back away from your fucking stupid talking point now, you made the claim that receiving a check every month is as bad as giving handies to drunk German assholes for food.

back to Holla Forums

But shouldn't be more easy for everyone getting laid in a communist society? Realistic sex bots are idea than prostitution

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Are you saying that pornography wouldn't get banned under communism? Man I don't want to start this conversation again.
Under the current system prostitution need some kind of regulation, under communism it shouldn't even exist

Yes. Living off welfare is FAR LESS degrading than selling yourself as a whore, and far less dangerous.

Except you can have a family on wellfare here you stupid twat.

Literally the only natives who become prostitutes are manipulated young girls addicted to drugs and a number of actual free will ones so few they fit into one room.
Except for the 30 odd women in this country, no woman would ever freely choose to become a prostitute.

No, foreigners forcibly taken away from their homeland shouldnt be kept here as slaves.

Explain again how receiving a livable wellfare check and free healthcare and rent financing is more humiliating than selling your asshole to sweaty 24 year old americans or 50 year old assholes who burn you with cigarettes.

The exchange of value is a fundamental product of biology. Before we had currency there was the barter system. Outlawing a form of barter does not remove that good or service. As the drugs and prohibition of the 1940s north america proved. In fact all it does is provide funding for terrorist and criminal groups.

lul nigga wat are you talking about getting neetbux is komfy as fuck, thats half the problem, sure beats gettin yer head stuck in a toilet and your asshole demolished (unless youre into that kind of thing)

You mean you don't know? You're just hoping it works out?? Idealist.

Same with banning porn. Porn and prositution will keep happening because people will keep needing them unless we can come up with some amazing answer to every social ill such as being an ugly guy who can't get laid. Also since you're a stalinboo I'll throw out that it will be the same with gays and trannies.

Actually no I can't have a family on welfare, in any country.

Hm, just like no woman chooses to ever freely become a porn actress? There is no difference essentially except that they can earn a lot more money.

If you ban prostitution you are depriving them of a high paid income source that would normally be beyond their education level. You are essentially saying that they must have a low income of welfare, or the indignity of minimum wage drudgery. I think you are mistaken.

Standards of employment being as bad as they are, and the decline of worker's rights is largely in part to wage compression and mass immigration in my point of view. Like with ancient roman republic, the mass import of slaves bankrupted many plebs in a time of economic hardship while the landed nobles profited by buying up all their farms.

It is particularly harmful to the lower classes, but the wealthy elite benefit and so we have mass immigration. Thank you for serving your corporate overlords interests so vigilantly.

If I had the choice of living off neetbux and being a useless drain and parasite on society, or earning a lot of money doing a degrading job I know which I would choose. Given the stark choice of either reality.

Unfortunately i have no choice but to rely on welfare or die due to the natural law.

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Religion is banned.

They get laid though, by raping children.

Gulag.
I'm joking but really I think that without cultural capitalism there will be less alienation and obsession with superficial parts a human. That said fuck betas. Communism isn't a solution to you being a loser and not being able to getting laid. I mean it's not even that fucking hard. The problem with betas is they expect a 10/10 girl, while they are a 3/10. Just settle for a 2/10-5/10 and shut the fuck up

Wew, retard detected. You actually fucking can. School is free, you receive money for each child you have.

As ive explained before theres litterally no women who become whores.

And yes, almost no women freely choose to become porn "actors". They either do it because they need money badly or because they are insecure and manipulated into it. The pool of pornstars who do it voluntarily is very very very very small.

If she is under a pimp's control it's rape
If she seized the means of reproduction it's revolutionary to have sex with her

But m-muh sexual liberation

I came because I was a little girl in a sugar daddy's world. But I stayed for the huge throbbing niggerdicks.

You are being superficial imo. If someone is, for example, an amazing chemist that can make all kinss of breakthroughs in his field but happens to be debilitatingly ugly/shy then there should be a way for him to get his physical needs met imo. And I say this to someone who won't even let the poor guy have a dirty magazine to whack it to.

Oh and just so we don't forget I'll say this is idealism again.

Lots of places have tried that: it doesn't offer much improvement.

PC: sex "work"
Marx: lumpen mercantilist exchange

Barter didn't arise until the collapse of economies that had previously had access to currency as they tried to approximate what they were used to without currency itself. Actual primitive economies work on a gift economy.

all behavior is the product of biology, we have already covered that.
never claimed it did, but clearly the failure of stopping drug trade was due to economic factors, not a biological need humans have to produce and distribute drugs, so if the economic system was changed it follows that behavior would also change. The same is presumably true for prostitution.

Shit I never considered that, you might be right. At least for warlords/chieftains etc.

Yes the idea that we can constrain natural human behaviour is something that all idealists dream of but never seem to see come to fruition. The one part of human nature that really needs to be contained is the impulse to violence and violent greed.

At least think up a better fictional person that "a super smart world famous scientist that cant get laid".

Yeah they gifted their daughters.

Dude zizeks an ugly freak but he's super social. Way to shut down my dumb example with an even dumber response.

I don't get it, I thought the SJW "left" defended sex work? That has been my experience so far on fedbook

I guess in fairness you did sometimes get formal bartering between separate groups (but then not always, in the Pacific Northwest the gift economy basically extended to everyone you weren't actively at war with because you wanted everyone possible to know how rich you were and how much you could afford to give away)

So from Holla Forumss prospective if I want to have sex with people for money, ITS LITERALLY SLAVERY/RAPE. Kinda funny, I use to believe this board was one of the only occasional voices of logic around here, yet it's turning Holla Forums-tier

Thats because the SJW "left" is bourgoies as fuck and only cares about "muh freedom to choose" without taking into account the realities of class, such that "freedom to choose" can be negative for the working class regardless of what genitals or skintone they have.

Some tankies and a few feminists ("sex negative") are still against it, both because they're stupid moralists at heart.

All work under capitalism is slavery. Prostitution in reality is even more coercive and slave-like than other forms of work.

You know these really condescending defenses of capitalism that use extremely early barter societies for examples of why it's a fair system? The ones that ignore the nuance of late capitalism and the exploitation it inherently relies on? You're complaining that we're not doing that in the case of prostitution.

I feel you. I just want to exchange money for other people's services, and suddenly butthurt everywhere.

Have you ever worked in a factory, at least prostitutes get paid well.

In a communist society would someone be allowed to receive labor vouchers in exchange for sexual favors?

There is nothing fair or right about it. It's an illustration that attempts to suppress natural human behaviour may indeed be futile at the expense of quality of life. In this case prostitution provides certain oft downtrodden classes to achieve a quality of life that would ordinarily be beyond their means. Noone would argue that the nature of the work is unpleasant, but then is not a soldier's work unpleasant?

It is still work, and if it pays well then who is to complain?

The concern should be work that is demeaning, difficult and paid poorly.

In a communist society sex would be outlawed, sex is the opium of the masses.

All human behavior is natural you humongous mongolian, but in a ill-fated attempt to not seem like a fool, you had to add the word 'natural' to your obviously wrong statement that we can't constrain human behavior, and then you go ahead and say we really must contain the human impulse to violence and violent greed. 10/10

4 u

Hardly anyone is arguing that it's "fair," but that it's roughly as "fair" as anything else under capitalism.

I remember the people wanting to ban prostitution advocating for imprisoning the johns. But I guess helping to shore up the legitimacy of the bourgeois justice system is what it means to be on the nuanced anti-prostitution "left."

Contain is a synonym of accomodate. Constrain means to tie up, like with a rope. My argument is to contain prostitution by regulating it, not constrain it by outlawing it.

The fact that prostitution is seen as a viable escape hatch from otherwise crushing poverty and despair is the problem, I think. And it's telling that that was your defense for its existence. Basically admitting that no one would take up this profession without some amount of economic coercion. You're not engaging in a fair exchange when you hire a prostitute. Maybe in a post-scarcity society where you trade a rare Bob Dylan record for a blowjob, I don't know, but definitely not in any realistic scenario on today's earth. If you go to Amsterdam you're hiring a slave, if you go to New York you're probably hiring a slave or just a desperate drug addict who grew up destitute.

You're right, nobody should hire poor or desperate for jobs. It's ultimately coercion, they should also be barred from any and all other unsavory avenues of income and self employment as women in particular do not have the wisdom to decide for themselves what to do with their own body.

If you eat in the US, you're likely eating something picked or cultivated by a human-trafficked or financially desperate immigrant. You aren't engaging in a "fair" system even for basic things.

Isn't this "fair" capitalist exchange talk symptomatic of the "I can be a moral consumer if I eat/do the right things"-type liberalism?

Which is to say, not fair at all, and in regards to prostitution in particular the work involved is emotionally and physically damaging, often dangerous, and is always tied up in other, equally objectionable activities (human trafficking, violent drug trade, etc.).

This isn't something I'd advocate for. The issue is that even legalizing prostitution does not solve the problem. It turns out that it doesn't establish a safe and healthy industry, it just makes the exploitation already going on further ingrained.

Like in the porn industry?
It's well compensated like most dirty dangerous work. Should we ban men from mining then, because it is physically damaging, often dangerous and is always tied up in other, equally objectional activites (industrial pollution, deforestation).

That's not the point I'm trying to make, more that legalizing the system does not actually reduce the harm it causes and is maybe counter-productive. I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to a sort of "prostitute co-op" scenario but the issue I see is that in places where it is legalized, Amsterdam being the most salient example, that doesn't happen. The old system continues just with more cashflow.

Similar to the porn industry yes, although that one doesn't rely on slavery. Either literal, as in actually purchasing women from Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia, or practical, where women are caught up in drug addiction and are coerced into staying in the business.

Mining as well doesn't, anymore anyway, rely on slavery. Although it probably wasn't the best example you could have chosen as historically the mining industry has been home to the some of the most deplorable working conditions in the first world and these conditions largely continue in the third.

All labor under capitalism is exploitative but I'm very skeptical of ideas like these, legalization of prostitution, that don't actually seem to help. Again, in theory I don't take issue with sex being a commodity in an exchange, but under capitalism, even when legalized, it is grossly unethical.

And? Capitalist work is already emotionally damaging by being alienating (among other things depending on the job, social situation and psychological make-up of the individual), and often physically damaging outside of white-collar work.

Good, because the last person I argued with on this board about this issue did think so for whatever reason.

The question is what problem we're solving exactly. If we're trying to solve the problem of imprisoning (generally poor) people for buying and selling sex, then legalization would solve that specific problem. Legalization can further ingrain activities that are sometimes used to support prostitution (e.g. human trafficking); it does make more sense, however, to attack those problems rather than threatening those who buy and sell sex with prison.

Can I suggest that maybe there is more prostitution in countries it is legalized in because there is less personal risk to the prostitute and that maybe they are less likely to have a pimp so they can keep more of their own income?

Ethical doesn't come into it in my opinion as I said there is plenty of work that is grossly unethical that people don't bat an eyelid at seeking as employment and they aren't judged by others for it. Like being a soldier or a miner. The issue here is the placement of sex a natural biological function on some sort of bizarre worship pedestal when it's really nothing special. The satisfaction of sexual desire is no different than sewage treatment. It's a shit job but somebody has to do it.

Also, here, it depends on what "harm" we're talking about. If we're talking about the harm of human trafficking, then it does not reduce that specific harm. If we're talking about the harm to the prostitutes and johns that can result directly from the exchange, then it does decrease that harm, as health has been and would almost certainly be regulated when a country legalizes prostitution. If we're talking about the harm of imprisonment, it would decrease that harm as well. So it depends on what we're talking about whether we can say it reduces harm.

Ding ding ding, we have a wiener.

You are overestimating the power of sexual feelings. Masturbation suffices.

You are right, but we should at the same time encourage people to choose forms of release that don't have to involve prostitution. Legalize sex, but have public information campaigns about the use of robot waifus, or the good old hand.

see above

It's possible, I don't really think there's a huge issue with the sort of backpage independent prostitute. More than there's issue with a lack of social security forcing her to get into that job in the first place, which is a broader topic. The problem is when an industry is set up like the red light district in Amsterdam as that's when the exploitation starts occurring on a much larger scale and the degree of exploitation, like human trafficking, is far worse.
The difference between a shitty public service job like a sewage technician and a prostitute is that there are real material consequences if we don't have any sewage technicians. I struggle to think of a similar effect if we had no prostitutes. Would rapes and elliot rodger shooting sprees increase? Probably impossible to say, if the cost is just sexual frustration then the trade-off, allowing prostitution and all its moral implications, isn't worth it.

Perhaps it's a broader cultural issue with how people view sex but the consensus seems to be that it is something special and that commodifying it is a particularly vulgar expression of exploitation. I know I'm invoking the Netherlands a lot but really, next to zero Dutch girls get involved in the trade since their basic needs are met. In a communist society it would probably be much the same. The nature of prostitution seems to be inherently more unpleasant than similar hard labor. There are still Dutch sewage workers and I don't know if we have the evidence to say that it's all social stigma.

The power of masturbation will put prostitutes out of business. They're gonna be out competed by an on demand service that's free just like streaming movies!!!

Exactly. Now you too are an onanist socialist.

If sewage technicians were outlawed people would dispose of their waste in another way. Illegal gong collection would be a serious issue for the urban population. In fact i would predict a huge deurbanization and an increase in pay for shitty workers. You might say that the shitizens would leave the shitty for a better life. Some would dig latrines but soon the amount of shit and poop would overflow into the streets and you would have rampant shit flinging and disease would spread. As you can see, it's a perfect analogy for outlawing prostitution. The stigma attached to prostitutes is no different than the stigma attached to rubbish collection and other dirty disgusting or taboo jobs.

As for the Amsterdam trafficking system, the environment that facilitates that is weak border controls that allow the insecure movement of people without proper oversight. That is what makes people trafficking viable in a modern society.

If anything you should be championing the cause of local prostitutes in your nation who's legitimate labor is being devalued by outsourced foreign workers.

On a side note, this may be an appeal to emotion fallacy but, in terms of abolishing the class system or instituting communism, is it not very good to undermine the link between education (which can be a function of circumstances) and more gainful employment?

The only way I can think that is faster at disrupting the current system is impractical land redistribution/grants. That's why in ancient rome they paid legionaries after 26 years of service with a parcel of land to farm. Because it's real wealth compared to gold or silver. Or maybe they just had an excess of land from all the people they were killing, I dunno.

Wasn't OP spamming 4/pol/ with these Dumblr chat posts like months ago?

If materialism holds, it follows that the technical solution to any problem is a just matter of time. Whether that solution is actually put into pratice, however, is another matter entirely.

utter feminist lies, they can't tell the difference between hookers from eastern europe sending money home and literal sex slaves, human trafficking for sex is pretty much negligible as something that actually happens

It's a grave sin that is endemic to cities. Since I hate cities and would rather live a peaceful existence in a small town or village, it's one of my highest priorities.

not one of*

Rural folks are more fucked up than city slickers if anything, they just usually confine their perversions to raping their wives and daughters and fisting farm animals.

LMFAO! For all the reading everyone claims to do, I rarely see it. Iceberg Slim's Pimp or American Pimp documentary. You can find both on YouTube.

Your argument is now invalid and WRONG!

Thanks for playing kid.

Yeah, but the question was about prostitution, not perversions. In my experience it's been the exact opposite, but hey, maybe I'm just a little biased :^)

I am a really, really ugly guy and have nothing but homebody hobbies, so prostitution is the only way I ever get to have sex with decent looking women. I hire escorts around once or twice a month and it keeps me happy.

I know it's probably wrong, but the type of escorts I hire aren't completely desperate on-the streets type of prostitutes so it's not that bad I think.

Are you that same faggot who was hatin on vidya games?

a thing that would happen as soon as the stone age
defeated your own point