Reminder that communism is not the future. Capitalism will be replaced with technofeudalism. The most cunning will turn their capital into cryptocurrency. They will not pay any taxes to the government. Eventually the lower class will subcome to robots taking over their jobs and will also not pay taxes. This will leave the government to crumble as they cannot support themselves simply by middle class taxes. That, or they raise the taxes on the middle class so much that they revolt - also leaving the government to crumble. Without any where to go, the technocrats form separate smaller governments which leads to technofeudalism. Their main goals after that shall either be to grow their new governments via capitalism or war. Either one of these will eventually lead to one large government ruling a country and a transition to technocracy from technofeudalism. What comes after this depends on if space travel is viable or not.
At the rate robots are taking over the lower class, this will be sooner rather than later.
Neofeudalism is the future
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Fuck. I set the subject as neofeudalism. That's a mistake.
I unironically this this is more likely than a socialist revolution
So basically what we have now?
This picture again. Gosh, so ridiculous…
Almost. The lower class have not entirely been replaced with robots in industries. We're only at the beginning of it. There are many people who have converted their capital to crypto so we've reached that step at least. Middle class taxes are rising and will continue to rise. If a government keeps certain socialist policies like benefits (UK system) then the middle class will be hit even harder as the number of unemployed lower class increases.
Just ignore it. I didn't have anything better for this thread.
This is the future.
Deal with it commies.
Could you define neofeudalism? For me it makes little sense to call a global company feudal. They have no loyalty to anyone but themselves, whereas a feudal lord owes loyalty to his king. Likewise, employees show no loyalty for the company - except japs and I think koreans, but their companies also care for their employees.
No, there aren't. The vast majority of people don't own a single buttcoin, much less have given up on their investments and opted for buttcoin instead.
Well, that would be more like Roman Empire than Feudalism, with the slave caste replaced with robots in this case. WH 40K and shit
You might get out of sales tax that way, but you're still paying income, corporate and property taxes, buddy.
The poor already don't pay taxes unless you count sales tax.
You also haven't considered what happens when the poor are all out of a job and thus the consumer base for most goods vanishes.
The "middle class" has already vanished, get with the times.
So, big centralized governments collapse because they can't get tax money… and microstates (which would require more bureaucracy to function) take their place? How are they getting tax money?
Basically, your whole idea doesn't make any sense. Society would completely collapse before your bullshit society came into being. The poor aren't going to go quietly into the night and even if they did it would cause a massive economic collapse as industry has nothing to sell to anymore. Maybe this makes sense in lolbert autistrian land where everyone where all value magically apparates out of the market and production and distribution of goods don't actually matter and everyone can just run their own restaurant and eat at each others restaurants.
But in the real world this is batshit.
The bigger any one cyptocurrency gets, the more bandwidth and better hardware it needs; the easier target they are for state actors.
Warcraft 1 had a cool aesthetic.
It will be a distributed society like the phyles in "Diamond Age," where they'll be enclaves all across the world.
en.wikipedia.org
Nigger the only demand that would matter would be your own, your robots' and your trade partners'.
But they will go.
Neofeudalism is a system that states more land = more wealth and in which wealth is distributed up classes with each paying a small portion up to the next class and a king being at the very top. The king would have to spend his capital wisely on the kingdom to ensure safety for the kingdom, steady expansion and an expanding rate of capital gain (that being the extremely shortened version of it). However, I didn't mean neofeudalism. That was a mistake in the title.
I meant to set the subject as: technofeudalism is the future.
Technofeudalism is this but with less "more land = more wealth" (not the entire removal of it however) and more of a product production aspect of it. There is an open economy as products can only be sold for a profit on an open market. Instead of the neofeudalistic system of being born into a class, you can move up classes dependant on how much wealth you have managed to get and how much you give to the king. There won't be a lower class as that will be filled in by robots. The lower class of pre-technofeudalism times shall have to either die off or have something other than manual labour to provide.
Ancap pls go
With automation the poor will have no money meaning they will not buy anything, thus an economic collapse. Unless you use UBI
Learn about finance. It physicaly impossible for government s to run out of money because they can print as much of it as they want. The government will replace taxes with printed money. This wave of inflation will wipe out the savings of the rich.
Bitcoin isn’t like currency. It’s got nothing proping it up. It’s backed by nothing, but sheer ideology. And when that goes away Bitcoin will be revealed for the scam it really is. The smart will invest in Gold and Silver.
What is backing up the euro?
You can try, but it won’t be pretty.
European GDP
Bullshit. It's a fiat currency just like bitcoin. If the market lose faith in the euro, it will become less valuable, GDP or not.
cyrpto currency might collapse income taxes, but there are other ways to fund goverment
Every time.
You could have just told me you don't understand how economics works, fam.
So you're just going to die so some technocrat can play feudal lord? Because, make no mistake, unless you're a CEO, banker, major stoke broker/trader or property holder and measure in decuple digits, you are one of the poor rabble.
*measure your wealth
You can get out of other taxes. Get paid in crypto, avoid income tax. Transfer all assets to crypto, avoid corporate tax (also, >implying businesses already don't pay ludicrously small taxes)
Property tax… Yeah, there's no getting out of that one. I'll concede.
They do pay income tax. The lowest of the low are supported by the state and thus will fall when the state eventually drops that system due to them not being able to afford it. I have concidering, btw. The entire economy will go down the shitter. It would have to be rebuilt from the fact that there would be a lower consumer base and the essential items and useful ones will sell better.
What the actual fuck do you mean the middle class doesn't exist?
Yes, microstates would require a whole lot more bureaucracy to work but that's the point. Only the smart shall be leaders. The money will come from the trading of goods and funneling of money via a sort of taxation where each class hands money up classes. There obviously won't be many classes and I can't articulate the words to make them say what I mean but think of the feudalistic way of moving money up classes.
No.
Have you tried reading on? You'll have to either die off OR develop a new, less labour based set of skills.
I don't think so. Real life is not a Mecha Anime.
Not only the rich will survive. The skilled will. Only the people who refuse to get any skills will die off. These people are either too lazy for society's good anyway or too stupid. The stupid may be due to their Autism Level or just lack of education.
The lazy I despise but the stupid still have a chance. They can still be educated.
good luck, man
Or perhaps the way society is organized is horrible for the vast majority of people, hindering their success. A long time ago the vast majority of people were involved in agriculture, and people thrived. Such jobs are not available anymore and most people are not cut out for rocket appliances. So your solution is mass extermination? That's unrealistic, the vast majority of people would revolt before that could be brought to fruition
And there will be a revolution. History has shown that people will not just die off, when pushed they'll revolt, especially if there are people telling them that there's a better way. You know, people like us. Already there have been big political shifts just from the level that they're being squeezed at now.
You're living in the 20th century, my dude. At least in Burgerland the middle class hasn't been a significant portion of the population in years.
washingtonsblog.com
ssa.gov
So they're able to pull this money out of their assholes because they're "smart"? I bet you voted for Trump and genuinely believed that you'd be tired of winning because he's a billionaire and therefore must be a genius.
So money is just magically conjured forth by the market. Marvelous. Not even a word given to the production process.
It's hilarious that people think this is a realistic system. Maybe because it's horrendously shit. You know, when I wank off to imaginary utopias, I at least like to make them sound like nice places to live in.
Why the hell are you bringing Lelouch into this? I don't remember him having a political agenda other than overthrow the government. A pure anarchist (the best kind)
And what did they do when their jobs slipped away? They moved on. They got other jobs. Your analogy wasn't too clear though. Agriculture is still a field that people go into. There aren't as many people there due to technology assisting in farming and other agricultury things.
I dont advocate for a mass genocide. Their deaths will be of their own faults. If they don't get a useful new set of skills that will aid them then there's no hope for them. Either way only the lazy will die. The uneducated could get simpler jobs that a machine still can't do such as cooking, overseeing machines, the entire entertainment industry is open to them too etc.
Ah yes, the "skilled". Very nice, just vague enough so you can insert yourself into your shitty little utopia.
Well, I've got news for you, Ayn Rand, skilled labor is just a more valuable commodity traded by the bourgeoisie. And, like all commodities that the bourgeoisie purchase in their production and reproduction of capital, they want to pay as little for them as they can get away with. The only reason why they aren't being automated is because the technology isn't here yet, and in your shitty utopia the bourgeoisie would do as much as they could to automate the "skilled" positions or otherwise would churn people out through training programs to make the skills involved commonplace and thus paid a pittance. It's already happening in real life, with education programs beginning to push programming and engineering in public high schools and even special courses being experimented to begin to teach the fundamentals of these professions to children as young as elementary school.
Well, the idea is pretty utopian, but so is communism. I do appreciate that OP, even if he comes from Holla Forums, came up with the topic, it is really interesting to read through arguments here.
t. Marx
You got me there! I completly forgot about this quote, I really need to finish reading Capital already
There will be a revolution against the government, sure. But what after that? A revolution against the machines? This has already happened with the luddites. It didn't work for them either. Machines can just be replaced.
The middle class still exists. It just isn't half the fucking population.
How do you think old feudalism worked? The money required to run a small state is given by taxes. It's how the feudalism of yore worked too. A single person doesn't run the entire state's business. The businessmen run the businesses
The ruler is there to expand the land, protect the land and make sure everyone can eat. The businesses produce the goods and the traders trade them for capital.
Let me elaborate. When I say skilled labour I mean labour that robots can't do. I may have set a semantic trap for myself by calling it skilled labour but labour-that-robots-cant-do was a little too long. Until I find a better word for it I will call it skilled labour (even though that includes the entertainment industry).
I wouldn't call it a utopia by any means. What I would consider a utopia is full ancap. This is just something that I believe will happen.
Why?
lol, no?
revolution against oligarchs obviously
revolution against haves, owners of machines
who is gonna buy goods? what about profits?
like what?
...
I dunno user.
where is the theorys ???
That's his lady, you infidel
A revolution against the technocrats.
Exactly. It's receded to it's pre-WWII levels. Which is to say that it's insignificant from a sociological viewpoint.
Peasants worked the land and had to give a portion of their crops to their lord, either as a portion of their crops as a tax or by farming an area designated as the lord's lands a few days out of the week.
The problem with your system is that there are no "serfs", and thus no way to gain taxes.
Trade to who? You just said the whole consumer base died off.
Like what? Potentially, robots can do any kind of labor. And my point still stands, labor will take on a commodity form in your system and so there will still be a push to make the skills necessary to do it commonplace so they can pay you less and less, causing people like you to live in poverty.
lmao implying technology is going to be that different in a hundred years
My thought is that a normal knight wouldn't just wear armour around for no good reason.
Are you talking pre-technofeudalism or post? Because right now there isn't an oligarchy. A revolution against the haves isn't going to help when haves also have guns and aren't going to fight on your soil. To fight back against them you're going to have to go to them. Even if you do survive, what the hell are you going to do? Continue producing goods? Under what leader? What the hell is the incentive for people to produce goods?
So you've destroyed the means of production. Congratulations. You've just created neo feudalism. Now instead of having a rich form of feudalism and integrating into it with a little effort you've destroyed modern society in your country. Your choice is to either move out or begin from scratch. In no way will people accept to work for free in communism.
>Who's going to buy the goods
Other people.
Robots can't entertain people
Robots can't program
Robots can't cook (requires taste)
Robots can't oversee other robots (who's going to oversee these robots?)
Robots can't think about complex topics like morals, physics or general things that go against the norm.
How did you get that from "the cunning will change their capital into crypto"?>>2046025
Explain yourself
Because Code Geass is a Monarchist Capitalist-Fascist future.
Maybe it's a parade?
...
Wew there lad.
We're not going to destroy the means of production. We're going to take them from the bourgeoisie and the "technocrats" and use them for ourselves. They'll be managed democratically by the workers and when they eventually replace the workers, we'll live in a post-scarcity paradise where goods are produced and distributed based on need.
It is but if in the end it becomes something else (another hierarchy) then it cases to be pure anarchy.
Climate Change is going to rectally ravage the future to the point technology will cease to advance at such a rapid pace for the rest of the public.
The upper class will only have their gated communities growing smaller and smaller in coming history. But it won't last.
there is
haves would need a conscript army to fend off have nots
and army is a whole lot of headache, especially in a scenario of a full scale civil war
it were petrograd sailors who started to shoot their officers en masse
because they need those goods?
who? 1.5 owners that survived?
implying they couldn't possibly do it in the future
compilers already do it to the extent
they already have vision, why couldn't they possibly have taste?
except they can
vague, you can't engineer a human soul tier
the weaboo trash is right there is an oligarchy right now, how you can not see it lol
For what reason? The public isn't retarded. They know that you need a leader for an ideology to succeed. Communism doesn't have a leader and the public also aren't huge raging homos enough to accept communism into their asses.
Even after the techno feudalism has been enstated it wouldn't make sense. The small governments would have small armies as well. Anyone trying to rebel would either have to move to a new land or shut up. You aren't talking about medieval technology either. These armys have real weapons. There's no point. All you could do at that point is wait for a technofeudal nation to grow large enough to establish a technocratic system.
He's right you know.
Yep. An anarchist with no ideology other than cause havoc.
You can't run an industry without a leader or an incentive. Imagine working for a guy but that guy doesn't pay you, or imagine going to work but nobody's there to tell you what to do in that job.
Prove it.
That's not good enough. What if one was too lazy? Oh look. That one's decided to take lead of the industry because nobody was told what to do and thus did nothing. He's trying to order them around but they're not listening. Suddenly, he whips out money.
You live in a fantasy land if you believe that communism can exist. People need to be told what to do and need an incentive to do it. Humans are greedy creatures after all.
No they can't. You need to be able to be self aware to entertain.
Explain yourself. Compilers are programs that transfer your scrawlings that a human can understand into scrawlings that a computer can understand. They can't add a line to a program.
That they can have, but it's useless to them because, unless you want an exact tasting meal every time, they can't understand the concept of food. Producing true self awareness in computers in nigh impossible.
Then who oversees these computers? Humans have no error messages. If the lead robot fails there's nobody to back it up. A human can interpret problems and find solutions to them. Robots can only find solutions from a very specific set of pre programmed interpretations.
look up wealth redistribution
money buys political power
then they get no goods
one of the principles of socialism is To each according to his contribution
have you mistaken me for an anarchist?
deus ex machina tier
money facilitate a circuit of capital
but if production part of circuit is not there, then money would be useless
machine could just emulate self awareness
compilers not only translate, they also optimize, and that involves all kinds of weird magic behind the scenes
I don't see why programming couldn't be further simplified and automated
just look back, in the 50s programming was an art
do you think birds brain can understand the concept of food?
but we are the living proof that it is possible
machine learning proves otherwise
*wealth distribution
who is right Charles? He got his ass handed to him by a peasant collective of various diverse races. If something that proves that his ideology that Britannians were superior is flawed af, they're fewer & therefore weaker against the United Nations that Zero makes.
Why don't you just go ahead and say that the technocrats were chosen by God to rule over humanity and be done with it? It makes more sense than the rambling nonsense you're spouting now.
It's very possible for the people to revolt against their leaders, even if they have an army. It's happened multiple times before throughout history.
I have no idea why you need immediately observable reality proven to you.
What if the technofeudalist stage is the final stage before the socialist revolution?
All wealth comes from labor. Don't know how your going to maintain something as sophisticated as a robot that can labor like a human when something like an OS requires armies of programmers and administrators to maintain.
So basically "Brink" but with land instead of Sea.
inflation enables the rich to get rid of debt, it kills the savings and incomes of the poor.
bitcoin is, unlike the dollar, not a fiat currency by design and every bitcoin that is created requires more work. bankers are planning to circument this though and i'm sure there will be enough dumb people who are gonna fall for their tricks. moreover, unlike gold, bitcoin's quantity is finite,
also under the current cicumstances op's scenario is much much more likely than communism. marx was right in pretty anything but he was wrong when he predicted that capitalism is gonna eat itself and communism comes naturally after it.
capitalism will just get worse and worse and eventually descend into some 1984 or brave new world type dystopia. we can't just sit around and watch capitalism accelerate. personally, i believe there will always be this fight between communists and capitalists and right now our side is doing pretty fucking bad.
capitalism will just get worse and worse and eventually descend into some 1984 or brave new world type dystopia. we can't just sit around and watch capitalism accelerate. personally, i believe there will always be this fight between communists and capitalists and right now our side is doing pretty fucking bad.
I believe you need to read a book. Systems don't just get worse into infinity, they're a process and eventually the process ends and collapses. Capitalism will simply collapse before anything like what OP is describing could come true. There are no eternal struggles because eventually one side collapses. Feudalism vs liberalism didn't last forever, eventually feudalism collapsed.
Automation is exaggerated, converting wealth to crypto-currency is a bad idea, and technocracy is literally Stalinism with lasers.
Well when you put it like that…
That sounds slightly better than what we have now.
techno porkies will probably keep the misplaced masses around to fuel their "charity" boners.