Is veganism justified?

*Yawn. Vegans are in a large part hypocrites.
ftfy, but it falls into the general "liberals are hypocrites" umbrella

Are you aware that you have a really limited choice of booze right? Jamson a nay, belvedere is a nay, guiness is a nay…

Meathooked & End of Water

youtube.com/watch?v=QkPBam3qO34

Published on Jul 7, 2017
The world is addicted to meat: In developing countries around the world, diets are starting to look more like ours, incorporating more and more beef and pork. Massive factory farms are springing up to supply that demand. But industrial meat operations produce more than just cheap T-bones; they also dish out enormous environmental harm. VICE travels to the feedlots, farms and slaughterhouses where our meat is made, to see the true costs of our burger habit.

Water is the single most vital resource we have – but it's also one of the most threatened. Around the world, from the American West to China, South Asia and the Middle East, the water we need is simply disappearing. VICE reports from California's once-abundant farmland and the heart of São Paulo's reservoir system to assess the depths of the crisis, and what can be done to reverse it.

What's hypocritical with trying to do less harm?

So, are you saying it's better to do nothing and just laugh at people who are trying to make a difference?

I've been a vegetarian for almost 10 years and changing my diet was one of the best decisions I made in my life.
The meat industry is one of the biggest polluters on Earth and the way animals are treated is absolutely fucked up.
I know just being vegetarian isn't enough if you want to do well, but for now I don't care. Some day when things are more convenient for me, I'll become vegan (except on sunday).

this attitude is basically the "pshh anti-capitalists using iphones heh" argument

there is still literally nothing wrong with anthropocentrism
but there are some smart arguments in favour of a plant-based diet, like energy efficency and environmental concerns
veganism itself is based on some silly moralism about animal rights, I mean it's fine if you don't want to use stuff animals have been used to make but don't pretend its anything more than a question of preference

What difference? Campaigning for veganism has as much of an impact as avatar changing on jeewbook or sign a petition at change. org

Some sort of vegetarianism where most meat product are phased out are objectively superior to heavy meat diets for many reasons, none moral. however going full vegan is still stupid and doing things like not eating fish is absolutely retarded.

How is not eating fish retarded when the ocean is being over-fished?

Because it's not that big of a problem, many fish are absolutely sustainable. A lot of over fishing comes from poorly planned attempts by mutiple fisheries to make big bucks who end up throwing away most of their catch anyway.

If that's your biggest problem with it i suggest going 99% vegan and just not caring when you drink or something.
Still hell of a lot better then not even trying.

I'd like to try tbh

Spirits are better anyway and they're basically all vegan except cream or honey based ones. I'm a vegetarian anyway so, who cares. I'm still better than 90% of people out there.

Go vegetarian then, it's still way better than being a carnivore.

animals are not humans I literally not feel sorry for killing them

It is not. So far I haven't seen any real argument for eating only plants. Meat and dairy products are tasty, healthy, there is no viable alternative for them and it's very effective use of land in the places where farming can not be used effectively, like on low-fertile land, hills and so on.

Veganism is good. Vegan activism has lots of problems.

/shitpost flag

cest la vie

you don't have to justify not doing something, there is no real choice to NOT eat meat, one simply doesn't

check your muh privilege

some post those rafiq arguments against ecology and veganism

theres a distinction between veganism and other forms of trying to consume ethically under capitalism.

once capitalism falls we'll see the end of sweatshop labour and general exploitation etc…. but we won't see the end of the meat industry. so that's why veganism isn't just some liberal feelgood bullshit (even though it often is).

also morally speaking, killing animals for food is prima facie wrong, according to almost all philosophers in this field.

What if the animal consent tho

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It's lifestylism in the place of actual change to the system..

yeah thats fair enough

hahaha no

yea there is its called grains, legumes, beans, vegetables.

but is that where 99% of amerifucks meat comes from? nah its all industrially farmed, where you have to grow 4-10 times the amount of grain just to feed the fucking chickens and shit

yeah but will the world go vegan once communism happens? no. so that's something we still have to fight for.

What the fuck? I thought for moment that I was on /liberalpol/ while browsing this thread. It really bothers me that this many "comrades" will have to go gulag for being a faggot after the revolution.

veganism is an easy activism for the desperate

bad for you
disgusting
disgusting
cant live on them 100%

the lack of a profit motive will end the overproduction of meat and significantly lessen the tortuous conditions most meat lives in

nop

holy fuck are you 4?

I'd like to hope, but there will still be people who want to eat meat in a communist society, and it'd probably be the large majority, so conditions might improve a bit, but if you want to feed billions of people you can't do it ethically with animals. there's just not enough space on earth lmao.

also even humane meat is still morally wrong
a pretty good paper on the topic here

philosophy.rutgers.edu/joomlatools-files/docman-files/Eating_Animals_the_Nice_Way.pdf

Don't worry hedonist waste, you'll probably die of heart disease before you have to see that.

damn

Rafiq went offfffff on a nigga

The amount of meatfuck edgelordism in this thread is staggering. Like, you won't even consider reducing your meat intake when it's demonstrably healthier because "muh anthropocentrism", even though we all know it's the kind of mentality that's been shitting on the environment for years.
I just can't wait for lab meat to become reasonably cheap so you fucks will be out of arguments for good.

oh you just think eating animals is

k

Honestly I have nothing against veganism and might even consider becoming one myself, but I probably couldn't go without eggs and milk. There's also the issue of the fact that I really like wool coats and would have to give those up too.

yeah bruh its just eating meat that shit all over our planet not the system that generates it

"no"

there is literally nothing wrong with anthropocentrism

That fucking dumb, why would you want literally everyone to be vegan? The problem with current meat and diary consumption is that it is inefficient, wasteful and unsustainable however in some cases we have to use the land for cattle, wool(which is arguably more ethical than cotton) and especially chickens which is extremely useful for turning things that grow that we normally can't eat into food. Not using the resources we have at hand like fish and animal products might be the dumbest idea i have ever heard.

What the fuck. Not only are they absolutely delicious but are you so much of child that you can't bite down on something not covered in sugar without gagging?

vegans are dipshits holy

lab meat means the end of that edible animal life

I think vegetarianism is more justified than veganism. It's certainly possible to harvest certain animal products without causing harm.

That said, there's some really trashy arguments against them.

Some animals in nature also commit cannibalism but most people don't seem to advocate killing other people and eating them.
That's just flat bullshit, especially with the fact that synthetic meat is possible now.
This is pure capitalist propaganda. Taken as a whole, no, meat farming is ridiculously energy intensive.

why would cattle not just go completely extinct once we have lab meat for everyone

we gotta make it to our great "communist" utopia but by being as nice as possible along the way

liberals, liberals everywhere

other humans are not me I literally not feel sorry for killing them

There are much stronger arguments for not caring about anyone's suffering (other humans included), than there are for only caring about the suffering of humans.

because eating animals harms animals? lmao its not that fucking hard to understand. if you need to eat animals to survive, fine, but we should be aiming for a communist society where we don't farm animals because they are conscious sentient beings.

What would be bad about cattle going extinct, assuming they all died painlessly?
Hell, what would be bad about humans going extinct, assuming they all died painlessly?

pain or not who fucking cares once theyre extinct

yeah that might happen. but is that really a bad thing? making it that a being doesn't come into existence is CLEARLY not the same as killing a being that is already in existence. Otherwise birth control would be mass murder.

a being that does not exist has no interests, so we can't harm a cow by making them not exist.

but we could still have some cows as pets and shit if we want idk

Ending animal pain by ending animals
are vegans JRPG villains?

You seem to care a lot, given that you made the point in the first place.

'lets all kill ourselves so nobody can feel pain anymore'
this is the worst kind of utilitarianism

Well, that's how I plan to end my own pain.
It's an entirely valid philosophical position.

That's not really a bad thing though.

nope

Why not embrace emancipatory nihilism instead, dear user?

So you don't believe in euthanasia for babies born in agonizing, incurable pain?
Easy there, Hitler.

you don't have to be a utilitarian to recognise that animals ought to have some sort of moral status, certainly enough to realise that its wrong to eat the fuckers just cos you want a shitty hamburger

That's plan A. When plan A fails, I'll fall back to plan B.

If your entire existence was suffering, would you rather have not been born?

are you even a communist

It's funny that you mention this 'Hitler' guy.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_welfare_in_Nazi_Germany

What the fuck do vegans think communist farms are going to look like

Thats only vegetarianism. There is literally no reason we can't have chickens to do extremely useful farm work and then have an egg with your bowl of spinach or whatever. I'm extremely doubtful of the sentience of fish you're going to have to back that statement up with something.

You could have a child. You know that if you do, your child will have a 100% chance of having a shitty, tortured life. If you don't have a child, nothing happens except your bloodline ends.

DO YOU HAVE A CHULDRIN?

10 seconds on google.
scientificamerican.com/article/fishes-use-problem-solving-and-invent-tools/

how do i know
and again; what the fuck do you think a farm under communism will look like

That's no substitute for meat, I eat all of them alongside meat. Also, you can't find good alternative to milk.

Back to reddit, fucker

Comrade gets it.

if we don't macerate the male chicks like we do in capitalist society nowadays, yea eating eggs becomes a bit more ok. but cos we have selective bred the chickens to lay 2-300 eggs/yr (chickens originated from the red jungle fowl which laid 10-15/yr), chickens have really fucked up bodies. they lose a ton of calcium and shit when they lay eggs, so if we care about chicken welfare we should feed the eggs back to them. but thats kinda minor lol

from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish

" Fish fulfill several criteria proposed as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. These fulfilled criteria include a suitable nervous system and sensory receptors, opioid receptors and reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics, physiological changes to noxious stimuli, displaying protective motor reactions, exhibiting avoidance learning and making trade-offs between noxious stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements. "

I'm fucking sick of these sadist pieces of shit ITT. Like what the fuck, tearing innocent plants out of the ground? Which psycho madman would do this? Why can't just people accept that eating sunlight is the only spoo… I mean moral way to self-preservation?

you don't NEED a substitute for your health. vegan/vegetarian diets are perfectly healthy, all major dietetic organisations agree

i singled out america cos i image the dude i was replying to was from there. But in reality its every developed nation. you can see footage on youtube

If you care about animal welfare so much, how many of them do you take care of?

Have you ever heard of the phrase "thought experiment"?

You do understand that most animals have a central nervous system while plants don't, right?

I swear, the level of critical thinking skills on Holla Forums gets worse every day.

That's not what I said, and does not follow from my statements. Coincidentally I would support euthanasia in that case for practical reasons.

No, but you have to be (a shitty) utilitarian to think about values and value of existence specifically on a pure pleasure-pain axis.

Do the vegans not actually know what a communist animal farm will look like?

Do you know what communism is?

is Rafiq just spank fuckin on?

answer the fucking question you mong

I'll have a kid because I'm not omniscient and don't know the future

Read again. Does that sound like an intellectually honest response to anything anyone else has said, or does it sound like a shitty strawman.
You make retarded posts, you get retarded responses.

i care about them enough not to eat them lol. after that i start caring more about humans

This is why being misanthropy makes the perfect combo for vegans

If you knew what a thought experiment was, you would understand how stupid and irrelevant your question is.

It's like answering a maths question, "how do you find the side length x," with "I just measure it lol".

read , again, to which that was an answer, which is the logical conclusion of the sort of pain-minimisation logic espoused in the other posts I quoted
yes, it is a perfectly intellectually honest answer to that, a comment the ridiculous logic of naive utilitarians

Are insects with complex hunting skills sentient too?

Of course you wouldn't use the todays farmed chickens as they can barely perform their functions anymore.
Studies have also shown that plants experience something similar to pain when damaged and release a number of stress related chemicals too, it seems we're shit out of luck.

Question for you vegans, do oppose eating molluscs too?

that is legit all pseudoscience. you won't see any respected scientist in that field saying that plants feel pain

i mean the science says they aren't sentient right? so i don't see any problem w/ it.

lets have a little thought experiment where we devise the nature of communist farming

answer the question

t. liberal hedonist who pretends that dumb animals have any kind of consciousness so he can stop eating them which in turn fills him with the pleasure derived from this act of ethical consumerism which of course does not make a difference, but instead lets him escape the agony of powerlessness imposed on him by capital

read the cambridge declaration of consciousness before you spout more bullshit lol

I'm vegetarian, but no, I don't oppose eating molluscs.
I think even insects would be fair game as they don't feel pain, I'm not even sure they make the cut for consciousness (which is actually an incredibly hard concept to define, both philosophically and biologically).

No animals are delicious and humans would have never evolved higher intelligence and become such a dominant species without their consumption fuck this hippie anarchkiddie shit we'll only stop murdering animals for food when we can effectively synthesize vitro meat and it simply becomes unnecessary.

It was a combination of a lot of factors, most of which are still only speculation. Pinning it down to just one like it was THE determining factor for evolving bigger brains (which is the main evolutionary trend for primates anyway) is pretty dishonest.

well then kill someone man what can I tell you? If you think there is no difference go ahead and do it

And? How can you know that what do plants feel when they are murdered even if they don't feel like us, animals?

That's bullshit, if go Vegan you have to take notes how much vitamins, proteins and so on you eat and combine it with vitamin supplements.

no, I'm not american.
[citation needed]. Factory farming is most usual only with poultry.

It was a key factor and what likely propelled us beyond other primates, it is believed consumption of meat gave us the extra energy boost our brains needed to expand and it isn't exactly surprising that studies have shown vegans to have less brain mass than meat eaters.

Well, they aren't conscious enough to realize that murder is wrong and stop killing each other so who cares about them? :^)

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TUMBLING DOWN

I'm not a vegan.

Asking people to envision one specific facet of communism is fucking retarded though.

red meat and cooking mostly. the human brain isn't cheap

im still in favor of lab grown meat, not because it's ethical, but because its getting pretty cost effective lately.

link?? cos that sounds like a load of bullshit, but if you have sources i'll believe you

because biologists and scientists say they don't. i trust their opinion more than some NEET on leftypol tbh

sounds spooky as fuck m8

No it wasn't, chimps hunt too, and so did our closest common ancestor most likely.
You sound like one of those retards who cherry pick through the "science" that supports their already established world view and ignores everything else.

No fucking wonder the Holla Forumsyp agrees with you.

that's right soyboy, you don't need to eat meat. You can be my lower caste slave :^)

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the only supplement you need to take is b12, and that is cheap, easy to take and effective. go to any major dietetic org website, and have a look about what they say about vegan diets. they all say it can be perfectly healthy

not just poultry. a quick search couldn't get me any stats about percentages, but thinking about it logically. if the world kills approx 60 billion animals yearly, the vast majority are likely to be intensively farmed, no?

This theory would pretty much apply to the entire homo genus not just exclusively homo-sapiens. I know chimps have been known to eat meat but I'm not sure this make up a regular part of their diet, we have also began to recognize chimp's expressing more tool use and perhaps even ritualistic proto-religeous behavior so in fact maybe they're becoming more intelligent due to this meat consumption.

I can live off bread and vitamin supplements and I would be perfectly healthy. When you need to combine your meals with vitamin supplements, something is wrong.

well, try to use your logic and think about how that would be possible when only minority of world food production is made by corporations.

STOP TRIGGERING ME WITH YOUR BIOLOGY!

what happens when porky stops making the vitamin supplements? you will be up shit creek without a paddle

Shit I'm fine with people only cheetos, but if people start harassing me or others for not only eating cheetos, because it's the "etchical" thing to do, they can get fucked.

For the record whale is tasty as fuck.

gas yourself OP

Yeah, meat eating is inefficient. But viable alternatives (that taste good!) are needed for a transition.
Especially cow meat is shit, 10kg of feed for 1kg of meat is pretty crap. Chicken or insect meat is a lot better, but there aren't many insect-mush based meat substitutes yet, and you can only eat so much chicken until you get sick of the taste.
Also, anyone know any good (and cheap) alternatives to meat, milk and eggs for protein?

Fuck carbs. What do I eat/drink for fats and protein?

Easy there with the smug m8.

This

What's wrong with trading 10kg of grass for 1kg of meat?

The land the grass is being grown on could be used to grow plant foods. Larger animals are fairly inefficient in regards to labor+resources in to labor+resources out. On top of that modern cattle farming is pretty catastrophic for the local environment, particularly waterways. Aquaculture is a much more sustainable and efficient source of protein.

Just meant resources out.

Preventing living things to live. That's worse than killing them at age X. Because you kill them at age 0.

yeah, because killing old nigger slaves is better than killing them at birth

fuck off Holla Forums

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tbh, veganism is the only sensible choice. It's just damn hard to make the switch and break old habits, which is why I am not vegan. Yet.

dude, you don't have any idea what are you talking about. Grasslands are good, we need to keep them if some bizzare scenario like war happened, so we could increase our food production due to embargos and shit. If you leave piece of land absolutely unworked, disaster will happen, wild bushes and invasive weeds are bigger problem than you can imagine. Using land as pasture is the best way how to keep it rested, fertilized and ready for the event of crop production.

You are pulling this out of your ass. With animals like cows, all you need to do is check them a few times in the week to ensure they have enough water. It's, in fact, one of the best jobs if you don't want to work 40 hours every week, but have much more free time for decent money.

There is saying that good cow farmer do not primary tend for cows, but is just using them to create perfect meadow. And If you don't like idea, you can have cows in sparsely planted orchard/forest, and produce fruit or wood alongside cow meat. If it's not enough, you might be able to add there beehive so you can produce also honey, I never heard about someone who do that, but it should be possible.

redpill me on this, what are you talking about?

I don't see how it is "more sustainable", but yes, it's another effective way to produce meat. But when it comes to my food preferences, diversity is the key.

Everyone ITT needs to read these two essays. It talks about how veganism is useless and contradictory as a revolutionary activity, but also how veganism as a concept is harmful and is effectively middleclass, chauvinistic moralism.
theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-veganism-why-not
theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-veganism-is-a-consumer-activity

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I was planning on reading Anarchism Works, but I probably won't now I've found out it's author is fucking retarded.

wow you sure convinced me with those hot opinions fagtron

Yeah whereas 'hurr only the middle class can be vegan even though it's literally cheaper than buying meat' is a super hot take

yeah, just like whites
are you retarded or you just want to avoid reality

Not him, but the nitrates and other plant minerals and shit in the dung would flow into the waterways.
Overfertilization has also contributed to this.
Safe to say, too much of a sometimes-useful thing is bad.

I couldn't be a vegan or even a full vegetarian considering I'm allergic to soy and legumes. That really cuts out of a lot of food, so I mostly eat potatoes and rice and other vegetables. I eat fish too. Sometimes I'll have eggs or a bit of chicken, but my meat consumption has gone down probably 99%.

It's better for the environment and for the animals. I don't even really crave meat. When you're allergic to most stuff from the grocery store or restaurants you really get turned off by it or anything really related to it. Or, at least, that is how it is for me.

Stopped reading here.

It's not really relevant, it's not like we are going to give the means of meat-production to the animals. Everyone's read the animal farm and saw what happens.