Are labor vouchers like a voucher that shows how much labor you have done and you can pick out a product that cost the...

In a sense yes, but I don't think it'd be the only thing that prices and production are based on under socialism.

So when everything is automated labor vouchers and thus labour will be worthless?

Exactly.

That's kind of the idea, yes.

But if all value comes from labor how could labor ever be worthless?

We won't have to automate everything to do away with labor vouchers.

when it requires no labor to create anything

It's not like people wouldn't work and create things without an incentive to do so, user. Value would just be something you contribute to the whole of society directly, and any one person's contribution has the potential to be reproduced across the world, benefiting everyone. Kind of like how open source projects provide value to people without people needing an incentive to work.

Value is a means of expressing cost of production.

Capital, including automation, is built up of material resources, other capital, and human labor. The materials and earlier capital themselves come from materials, human labor, and capital. You can keep breaking down the material parts like this and ultimately you're left with everything being the cost of the labor that went into it.

If everything is automated, there is no labor going into anything. Therefore, these things have no value.

Spoonfeeding noobs is the thing that separates Holla Forums from Holla Forums

They're not talking about that kind of subjective use-value.

Nvm, I'm dumb.

Exchange could still happen, like bartering, but it's far more likely it'd just be things run off of social credit, as suggested by Modern Monetary Theory.

Why would exchange happen if people no longer produced to exchange?

They wouldn't produce things to exchange in the capitalist market.

For the same reason that you exchange with neighbors or other close friends. It's a social bonding thing.

Alternatively, it's like requesting memes on threads. You're exchanging because humans are a social animal by their human nature :^)

In a post-scarcity economy it would just be about distributing non-scarce resources more efficiently. Think of like copying a digital film and sharing it with your friend.

Does the OP or anyone else have any more questions on this? I'm more than happy to answer.

Marx explicitly says that the value form would no longer exist under communism, since the society would be producing for use, not exchange. Value underlies and is expressed by exchange-value, or the ratio at which commodities can be exchanged for one another. Evidently, once production for exchange is done away with, and goods are produced purely for their use-values, value as socially necessary labor-time will similarly vanish.

It is incorrect to view the value of a commodity as a means of expressing its cost of production for two reasons:
1) Because value is a measure of socially necessary labor-time, not price, so while the prices of the various inputs of the production process and the finished commodity itself can vary according to the dictates of supply and demand, the value of those inputs and of the finished commodity will always remain the same for a given time and place with a given productivity of labor-power.
2) Even if we were to assume that supply and demand are in equilibrium and goods trade at their value as represented in price, then, crucially, value does NOT express the cost of production. Capitalists rely on this very distinction to make their profits. Capitalists pay the workers a wage and gain their surplus-value for free. In other words, this surplus-value, by definition, does not factor into the cost of production.

I…don't disagree with any of that? I'm not assuming that this is within capitalism, otherwise yes, there are differentiations between what you have to pay to get something and what is required to produce it, which is something I rather intentionally avoided.
I suppose saying SNLT always existing doesn't make sense while also saying that it's possible for it to go away through the elimination of production for exchange. Thanks for that.

Labour vouchers are just "Money" that gets destroyed after use.

JUST

They're not money though because they have no inherent value. They're tied to average social production.

Yes
No. Dont listen to the idiot who told you that.
No, generally not, only if you have a special kind of flavour that does do this (but thats not really supposed to happen so only should serve to solve problems that otherwise cant be solved)

Theyre fucking great, read cockshott

And they cannot circulate.

Labor vouchers allow the ruling government/party members to exploit the workers. Don't be fooled comrade

If you don't take differences in different workers' production rates into their translation to vouchers, then you end up with discrepancies in what is available for claiming and the amount of vouchers that are currently unclaimed.

Could you explain how?

No, thats retarded mate. The cost of products is set in their social avarage labour time, so by definition there is always exactly the same amount of hours in vouchers as were put into the products. If everybody making cars would suddenly work twice as fast, then the value per car would simply decrease on avarage and thus also the price. It is exactly because its based on avarages that you always have a full representation of hours worked as vouchers.

But if you dont believe me even though im right, you can just implement cockshotts system wherein the price is set at whatever clears the shelves without shortage or leftovers, after which you adjust production to try to make the new price match the cost

Sure. How much is your labor worth? Do you get to decide that or does the ruling party members/government get to tell you, comrade? If the ruling party members decide labor is worth less than who are you to argue? The collective loves their party correct, comrade?

Or more precisely:
Because the prices are set in SNLT, which is the avarage productivity, the total value created in society is exactly equal to the total amount of hours worked in society. But slow workers receive more than they produced and quick workers receive less. This might produce undesirable results, but monitoring and objectively measuring the performance of individual workers is next impossible. You can use a system for rewarding harder work, but you have to carefully design it so it doesnt fall victim to subjective judgement and doesnt require an invasive surveillance system.
I would personally think that you wouldnt need to reward some more than others, but what you could do is compare "competing" workers groups making the same things in different places and compare their productivity and award them more or less as a collective. They will then use group pressure to try to get everyone to work harder. But this is sketchy too because less performance can occur due to uncontrollable things like weather, other factories that deliver later or a plethora of other shit.

One hour for one hour of work.
Kinda dim there mate? A socialist economy bookkeeps with hours worked as their unit. Therefore an hour of work produced an hour of value. The worker receives this, minus taxes for wellfare, reproduction of MoP and expantion of the MoP. Products cost the same as they cost to produce.

So you just have no idea how labor vouchers work. Thank you, your input has been noted and summarily discarded.

I agree. That's why free markets are the only way.

You realize that you still do ultimately get rewarded for your harder work, right?

Dude what?
The whole point of communism is to eventually abolish labour vouchers and have a society based on free association, working because you want to, and producing what you can, while taking what you need.

The idea that you need to throw sacks of gold at people to make them work is retarded and only works for non-mental labour. This has been proven by science.
youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Wait so I don't have to work if I don't want to? I can just take what need while others do the work? So I can get on the welfare system? Do nothing and just fuck and listen to hip hop all day. I'm IN! You guys convinced me!

In higher stage communism, yes.
Its not welfare because theres no money or rationing.
You'd be bored pretty quickly by doing just that.

You wont live to see full communism.

Oh damn your right. Maybe I will get some friends together. Start intimidating my local neighborhood for power. Get people to do what I want under force. I mean shit I gots time on my hands.

Why don't you do that today mate?

What's stopping you?

Can't get on welfare. Will have to wait until you are all working and willing to become communists so I don't have to work ,just leach off all you. I mean damn you are willing to work all day and let me live for free right? While you are at work ill fuck your womens.

You can get on welfare today though.
And what is preventing you from just getting together with some friends and start intimidating the local neighbourhood for power?

Higher stage communism means barely anything has value anymore and there's no need to work

They still have a value

neither can Rupee's in the Legend of Zelda :^)

They do not actually carry value in themselves the way money does. If they did, they would be exchanged like money instead of redeemed.

No. That would be money.

Yes.

No, you got only one voucher. As for the products, it's up for the Soviet to decide.

They'll be necessary in the first phase of the communist society.

No, that is labour vouchers.

Rationing cards are rationing cards. Labour vouchers are labour vouchers.

Not if it has a value and is destined to be exchanged for a product of equivalent value, no. This is money.

Labour vouchers are a specific type of rationing cards.

Labour vouchers dont have value. They are vouchers. And they arent exchanged, they are collected upon. They cannot be transferred.

Marx said so himself.

Indeed.

Where?

Rationing cards have nothing to do with production. They are simply a token that can be exchanged for a certain good directly. They do not involve the labor of the recipient.

Money has market value which follows the token as it is exchanged.

Labor vouchers are tokens that allow you to claim your labor amount in forms other than what you directly output.

Critique of the gotha program.

Where?

The first part. He says people get exactly what they worked for. Vouchers are just a bookkeeping tool and can, as marx said himself, just as come in the form of a big book where they keep track of how much you work and claimed. You dont have to receive it in some form of physical thing. You dont exchange it, you just make good on what is already yours.

Don't worry about guys like friendo.
Come to Holla Forums, we'll be happy to answer all your questions till you finally understand

How do you reconcile the fact that some jobs produce nothing?
A garbage man provides an essential service but produces nothing, therefore, if you pay them anything, you're taking away some of the production of factory workers and the like.
So in effect it's impossible to pay people exactly equal to what they produce unless you somehow eliminate all jobs that don't produce anything (kek, good luck)

If you would bother to read critique of the gotha programme (its pretty short) you would have seen marx addresses all of these issues.
You dont get paid "the full fruit of your labour", deductions are made for reproducting the means of production, wellfare, new means of production, services etc.

Alright.
Next question.
How do you organise yourselves without a hierarchy?
I highly doubt a factory that produces even simple wares can function efficiently without at least one person overseeing and managing production.
And producing something like a new phone without some sort of management is mind boggling; it's just too complex

Management doesnt imply hierarchical societies. Have you ever heared of the idea of "the government serves the people". Same thing applies here, management is chosen by the workers and the workers retain the right to recall them any time, as well as having simple direct votes on topics.

Gorilla poster makes a thread a day here. It'd be nice if he actually read before posting.

Horizontal management means that you're not above the other workers, just that you're performing a different job. As workers, you design and fill out the management roles with people who are good at managing instead of promoting them "up" from one job they are good at, to a different job they may well suck at.