So if a member of the working class is characterized by anybody that is employed by somebody...

Me no like cops!!! :🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧(
Watch "La loi du marché" (and "Jamais de la vie" to a certain extent as well) to understand what these people go through.

Why this board attack cops but defend the military? The both deserve to get meat grinded

A) the Police Force were invented specifically because the military wasn't capable of repressing labor effectively
B) show me people here defending cops

wew lad

While yes they are, and yes previous revolutions have utilized both the local police and the military, the police are in a position which puts them in direct odds with any kind of revolutionary action. If your able to garner support or sympathy from the police like the Soviets and integrate them post revolution, good on you. But the reality is most will oppose the revolution. I think a lot people do feel a sense of righteous indignation in regard to the police though, which I've always felt is the wrong way to percieve things. Its not that the police should be "hated", I'm sure there are those which truly just feel they're doing their jobs, its that it will be necessary to oppose and remove police who stand in opposition to the revolution. Its just the reality of the situation, no moralizing.

You mean soldiers? Just open a thread about it and see it yourself. There was a thread here a week ago where people where unironically defending military intervention in the middle east

Technically, yes. People who work as private security are absolutely proletariat. People working directly for the state are slightly hazier but class analysis suggests they are.

nigga they don't produce any value. they are not part of the working class.
read: any Socialist writer ever

working class is an ambigious as fuck term but in a socialist context with USUALLY be used a synonym for proletariat. Police are not proletarian no matter how much you try to stretch it.

The main issue is that police tend to side with reactionaries, racists, the wealthy, owners of private property, and the government. Which is why it's sad that police unions are some of the most powerful unions in the US. And at least in the US, they have a massive victim complex where everyone, but especially leftists, are out to get them.

neither does the trashman is he not eorking class?

yes they do.

God in the US they're literally trained to act as a occupying force against a populace actively out to get them

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i don't hate cops, but as long as they are cops they have to be opposed for they are the enforcers of capital and the state.

I wonder why…

First, no, because cops are not employed by 'someone' as in the owner(s) of private property, they work for the state so it's not a capitalist relation of production. So at least in the sense Marx typically used the term, of people who produce surplus value, they aren't members of the proletariat.

Second, this is by far one of the most idiotic and tiring ways you can approach the question of classes in Marxism. The point of us talking so much about proletariat and the working class at large is not to create a clear-cut designation that encompasses everyone that is cool & oppressed in a society and excludes everyone else, it's just a way to describe the bulk of the wage-earning classes in a capitalist society, which by extension means they're the ones who regularly have their hands on most of a capitalist society's productive forces, which by extension means they're the agents of any future social transformation in the relations of production.

For this reason, plus the fact there are certain instabilities in capitalism that makes the proletariat more likely to organize itself collectively in order to secure its own interests, Marx and other socialists have since designed this broad-as-fuck class as a revolutionary agent. Any other class or segment of the working class can agitate as much as they want, but by definition they'd be only reach the margins of capitalist society: the public sector, the co-ops, the small property. If you're dealing with capitalism, capital is the dominant relation of production. If capital is the dominant relation of production, we need the people who sell their labour directly under it to transform society. Revolutionary changes requires the people who deal with most of the production. It's pretty fucking easy right?

But instead of using this simple piece of information and letting good old common sense deals with the small imperfections, it has become a trend to approach Marxism like a tightly codified system, which leads to a series of dumb questions such as:

Which is all missing the fucking point. We're not trying to create an Identity that everyone who has it rough can adhere to, we're simply trying to describe a group within a productive proces.

So don't worry about obsessively identifying who is and isn't member of the working class or the proletariat, as if having a person who is a well-off dickhead or someone who does shady for shady corporations falling under this umbrella means our entire approach is flawed. It's a loose term meant to establish guidelines only.

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Police officers are class traitors. Hanged like the rest.

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No, DSA, police are not part of the working class.

Yeah they're workers. The thing is that their whole job is to work against other workers.
Look at it this way: If someone had a government job and the whole point of their job was "infiltrate and disrupt communist movements" would you want them as part of your communist movement?

Holla Forums is so fucking stupid that I, a carpenter, was told I'm not part of the working class. Only the famed position of factory worker, to you hardcore Lefties, is true "working class." It just shows how much of a fucking LARP this all is. There's no depth of thought. There's no conviction. You all just run with little fanciful stories of the past which you've completely disfigured and glorified beyond comprehension, speaking in your two century old political rhetoric and segregating based on what amounts to folklore at this point. It's hilarious.

9/10 cops will side with the rich & gleefully beat/shoot you in exchange for scraps from their table & care more about their ego/power than actually enforcing the law. I've worked with police in the USA for 12 years. Nearly all modern police I know are excited about Trumps military hardware giveaway and excited to have free reign to beat protesters. The young ones are especially bad.

i'm a leftist because i'd rather try to make the world whole instead of giving in to fascism because muh scarry niggurs

careful user you might twist your ankle if you keep making those big leaps in logic.

You'd rather destroy all diversity through mass forced diversification and destruction of heritage and culture, under one world order, of whatever sort you like to proclaim fit, and leave humanity an sick aimless, baseless blob of brown, whose pride is null, whose diversity in survivability is null, whose intellectual prowess has been weakened etc.? Sounds pretty fucking disgusting. But you keep trying to lump your lust for this in with low-brow ineffectual attacks on my "masculine pride." Problem is you don't even begin to comprehend what masculinity is…

why are you talking like a racist warcraft 3 character

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WE ARE NOT LIBERALS
No one here talks about forced mass diversification or even wants it. Plus cops are assholes not because they shoot jamal but because they shoot to whatever they want.
Also where the fuck do you get this idea that socialism wants to destroy culture? Read fucking adorno, capitalism is destroying culture and flooding the continent with immigrants and if you are american go fuck yourself, you are not white and don't act like you have culture.
Culture flourish under socialism, under capitalism becomes a product

I should add onto this that a lot of other workers don't actually do anything of real value for work, but they're still workers

Not all proles are socialist, the vast majority are against it because of the constant bombardment of misinformation for the last hundred or so years. Some proles uphold nationalist capitalist garbage even when they know it's against their best interest. So yeah, I guess they're proles, but their job makes them professional state sponsored assholes and the ultimate militant class cuck.

Even if cops were working class, their job description is to be a class traitor. They're not working class because their labor doesn't have a social function. Their job is to enforce capitalist control, and doesn't contribute something with use-value. There'd be no reason for them in socialism.

Yes.
No.
These are two separate things. The lumpenproletariat are not workers either but they're still oppressed. Capitalists are oppressed even. It's not that capitalists oppress workers. The cycle of capital and the resulting rules and pressures of the system oppress everyone.

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Weird, my DNA is 100% European.
Where? When? All I recall from Communists and Socialists is the destruction of national monuments, statues, the rewriting or erasing of historical literature and events etc. It happened in Eastern Europe. It happened in China. It's happening here. Oh, but that's just "muh liberalism." Weird how similar they act to Maoists and Soviets.

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Nobody's dna is 100% european, because your british grandpa's french grandma's italian grandfather himself had a grandmother who was unknowingly the bastard of an arab sailor

As a matter of fact it is. My grandparents are from Germany, Poland, and Ireland. You keep pushing the "all americans are mixed" meme though, you dumb rat. It's funny at least how inaccurate it is. I'm more European than half the European cities in Western Europe now, thanks to filth like you who seek to displace and destroy white populations.

That is not true at all.

Being American is a brain disease.

kek I bet you're actually a jew

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Read fucking adorno. While I agree with you that destroying statues is retarded, it's not that the problem.
Also I've made a few more points than statues

I can't tell if you're mentally slow or being purposefully obtuse. Use some simple deduction. If my grandparents came from those places, then it's safe to assume, isn't it, that their parents, as well as grandparents, and so on, also did? After all, these countries weren't exactly heavily diversified back then with massive annual immigration. On top of that every feature on my face is European. My skin tone is pale white. I look native German. What are you not comprehending here? Taking a boat ride to another continent doesn't alter your DNA you fucking retard. Thanks for the laugh though.

genetically speaking you are european maybe, culturally speaking? FUCK OFF LARPer
You are not european and will never be. You are a stupid american, we make fun of people like you in europe.

No, this is precisely why I'm saying you're a retard. Ancestry doesn't just begin in the 20th century and before that everyone, everywhere was descended purely from people of the same nationality.

The most ridiculous example of this being Poland. Poland in 1920 was absolutely full of Jews and had been for centuries, if you have a Polish grandparent you're more likely than not to have some Jewish (read: not-European) ancestry. Similar if you have an Irish ancestor for instance, you probably also have an English ancestor, and if you have an English ancestor you probably also have a French ancestor, and following from that you very likely have a Spanish or Italian ancestor - and if so you could potentially have an Arabic ancestor.

If this basic logic doesn't persuade you why not take a DNA test? I assure you, you're not going to be 100% European. Even actual Europeans rarely get 100% European.

That's also very funny because Germans are almost as mongrel looking as Americans are.
Not to mention every """"white"""" American thinks they have "European features" (whatever the fuck those are).

Poles and all slavs are genetic faliures and are traitors to the white race. They're a disgrace and every last bit of slavic gene should be purged from the planet.

Putting the shitposting aside, there are huge fucking differences (both genetically and culturally speaking) between european countries, sometimes even regions. People from the Mediterranean region like Sicly and Spain have a lot of influence from Beduins (but I'll use simpler term that you too can undertsand: "niggers"). And most eastern slavs, like russians and ukrainians have a fuckton of central asain blood in them. Europe is not some "genetically clean" continent and it has never been. Every single people group today is a result of hunderds of years of bastardizations. Get fucking used to it, your magical masterrace doen't exist,a dn it never has existed, outside of the brains of some nazi fuckwits.

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fucken oath m8, is there anything more cringey than colonials LARPing as muh proud european

class is not defined by "employment status" but your relation to the production process and the means of production.
the relation of police to the MoP is they defend it for the bourgeoise. they do not work with the MoP, they're not in maintenance, they are to enforce the bourgeoise laws of private property against the workers.
to give another example of people that are workers but don't use the MoP but have another relationship, by serving the workers, are nurses, or any of the service workers. while not working with MoP in production, they do service more often then not the working class and usually share its fate in consequence of being exploited and held down. you here can also differentiate between those who work subordinate to the working class or serve the bourgeoise (private hospital in example) where working conditions are better.
it's a question of which class they're serving. you can put the police into service of the working class but it does not make them part of it.

You know absolutely 0 shit about 1 genetics 2 the immigration waves in europe 1000 B.C. - 1800 3 You are a special kind of loser for believing that you are intelligent

This reasoning only holds under an assumption that a state cannot be capitalist. Which is to say, it does not.

You're completely right about the rest, though, which is precisely it should not be difficult for anyone to admit that, yes, cops are wage slaves just like everyone, regardless of the particular task they're forced to do to make a living, and regardless of whether they'll become our enemies in the event of revolution.

Actually, that describes a majority of their job pretty well.

For all intents and purposes, yes they are working class.
However, they are an instrument of the ruling class, much like soldiers are. Soldiers are used for imperialism.
If conscription is in effect, they are comrades, if they do it by choice, they are not.
There is no police conscription, they are tools by choice.

Yes, they are proles. No, that doesn't make them the good guys.

You just admitted to being mixed you mouth breather. Celtic, Germanic, and Slavic are considered distinct genetic ethnicities even by most Nazi retard standards.

Not all working class are our allies.
Not all capitalists are our enemies.
Their class may be determined, their individual ideologies and class interests may vary according to specific type of work.
A petit bourgeouis may be supportive of the socialist cause. Perhaps because he would see it as an opportunity to level the playing field for a true meritocracy. He would be an ally.
A high-paid paper-pusher may be working class still, as long as he recieves pay from above. But he may see socialism as a danger to his job, and fight against it. He makes himself an enemy.
A true powerful capitalist. could be switching sides as early as possible, to make sure his neck stays on his pelvis when a crisis breaks out he couldn't survive. He would be an ally, if he helps. (A very valuable one imo)
A police officer would see socialism as a danger to law and order. He would fight against it. He may be working class, but he still makes himself an enemy.

Class opposition is the most fundamental opposition, but there are always class traitors on any side, for whatever reason.

Cops chose a side. They are proles but they chose to fight against their fellow man so they deserve everything they get.
That being said, when society is collapsing and the cops are leaving their jobs in droves, it might be better to reach out and co-opt them lest they fall to the right (though, i wouldn't hold out much hope)

This guy has the right idea

Spinning numbers the right way so it can mean whatever you want it to mean, I see. The vast majority of crime is intraracial; according to your own logic, doesn't that mean white people should be even more afraid of and accepting of police brutality targeted at other white people, considering it's much more likely for a honkie to be killed by another honkie than by a nigger?

Why are you so hung up on race?

Meant to respond to other guy

Yes but their role in society is what makes them bad. Individual police aren't bad, but rather their role and implied interests are whether these implied interests actually line up with what they are more interested in as members of the working class.

Yes, thank you ! I will add it's not an olympic oppression. I worked for a boss who earned less than me (he was a plumber with a small buisness) but the place he has in the mode of production makes him petty bourgeois, with a buisness owner mentality. Wich is sad because his interest would be abolition of Capitalism.
By the way petite bourgeoisie is not always reactionnary because it's a disparate class : you have lawyers, small owners, shopkeepers, craftsmen, bar tenders, etc…
Lawyers,shopkeepers and small owners will probably stick with Capitalism in a revolution but craftsmen for exemple are threatened by the development of the productive forces so might become part of the insurrection.
State employees have the same issue : Sate bourgeoisie (high ranked officials), police, military commanders are threatened by the revolution, but cleaning employees, teachers (maybe demand in which country)etc… have more to win in that game.

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