Is there any consensus on how to recognize the ultra conservative waves of muslims coming into the west?

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You realize that they've actually started to go back right?

Nope. They are still coming, in ever increasing numbers.

And the ones staying are having many children.

Remind me how the natives are any better. Disregarding the radical fringe, European "leftists" are Blairite SocDems at best. Most people are liberals and reactionary right wing populists. It's already a lost cause for the most part.

Lol

Because muslims are even more reactionary than the average European in every single way.

Pic because I reminded myself how much I dislike how muslims treat Kurds.

It's not like fascists are know for their morals and consistency.

delet this kuffar

Leftcucks already have an alliance with muslims.

"As a whole, the Kurdish people are adherents to a large number of different religions and creeds, perhaps constituting the most religiously diverse people of West Asia. Traditionally, Kurds have been known to take great liberties with their practices."

They tend to follow the listed religions: Islam, Ahl-i Haqq (Yarsan), Yazidism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity and are the ones most tolerant of atheism in the middle east.

To almost all muslims, they are heretics and unbelievers.

Holla Forums spotted.

Nope. The solution imho is letting them in a 10:1 girl to boy ratio. Women then to be less extremist for obvious reason

I don't see that happening at all, even though it might be very… interesting to see.

That's wrong though
bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40460126
If you're so worried about migration then solve the underlining problems that lead to it

That article mentions the ones in Turkey and Middle East mainly.

The ones that will go back are the ones who didn't come to Europe.

And even if all the recent migrants left, guess what, pic related. And they are the only demographic with high fertility rates. Not like it's essential, being that between 3% to 7% of the population is enough for a revolution/counter-revolution.

6.5% is the estimated population participation rate during the American War of independence, and it was started by an even smaller percentage of the population (like 2% I think).

Threads like this demonstrate just how terrible humans as a whole are at analyzing problems and working out solutions. It isn't limited to the right or the left. You're all morons who think you're smart because you can regurgitate quotes from other, marginally less stupid, people.

I don't see you coming up with any analysis or solutions, smart ass.

My best friend is a Muslim, and he's more liberal than I am. I mean he's not a first generation immigrant but still. I really don't buy into the 'islamisation' meme.

Oh shit

Personal anecdotes are irrelevant when dealing with large numbers of people.

If you had a Communist friend that considers himself a Tankie, does it mean all Communists are Tankies? No.

And btw if he's Muslim he can't be liberal, if he is liberal he doesn't follow Islam's rules and is therefore not a Muslim.

And just because he is a liberal it does not mean he is a Communist, or on our side at all.

Honestly, this is a pretty cucked mindset for anyone here (not you, necessarily) who is chill with letting people believe in their dumb skydaddies. It actually seems to go around - one day some Christian's repeating the "Islam is all literalist readings of the Quran and unless they're super-hardcore about it then they aren't real Muslims, anyway!" and the next day they're thinking "wait, maybe this applies to my religion, too" and suddenly they're a fundamentalist. Insisting on a certain "true" form of religions you don't even practice is a bad idea. The Islamic reformation is actually responsible for a lot of the hardcore purity olympics that go on now, so it's not like the religion hasn't changed - it's just been for the worse.

The thing is that the mainstream left as a whole, even their more militant atheists, give a free pass to muslims.

That is unacceptable. Either you want an end to organized religion, or you do not.

The thing is that Muslims have sharia law, and that is a living form of law already completely codified. Which is a big challenge for secular nations taking them in.

Props for the Balkan Muslims having secular governments, though. The benefits of having been socialist for so long I bet.

He's a moderate who doesn't follow the religion obsessively except for the obvious popular rules like fasting and not eating pork etc. (ie. I know he doesn't pray 5 times a day) but that describes most Christians too.

Never said that but he's not a scary sharia guy either, when I said he was more liberal I meant he isn't a communist.

I got to thinking about this a few weeks ago when we hung out and we were waiting for our other friend and he said to me, did you hear about Trump banning transgender people from the military, and I was like yeah, I guess, but why would anyone want to join the US military anyway, obviously he did it out of spite but it's better they don't join, I can't say I really care one way or the other. And he replied well but it's just wrong, people should be able to join the army if they want to. And I was like yeah I guess that's true.

Anyway that got me to thinking about his politics.

I understand what you are saying.

But we kinda can't win with this situation.

My point being that they are like the average westerner with the exception they have a higher rate of heavy conservatism, which makes our end goals harder by ultimately increasing the prevalence of traditionalism in society.

Literally the only way to spread secularism.
Muslim girls can't marry a non muslim man.

You already made this thread five times this week and you rekt in all of them

This is your future and you lefties prepared it yourself. It's gonna be pretty fun to watch :^)
t. CSU man

muh islamisation is a meme. social conservativism has been deliberately promoted within 'the muslim community' by the state and the gulf petrodollar fueled salafi machine. our real enemy is the bourgeois, so I wouldn't reject the chance to radicalise and despook young working class 'muslims' . beats marching with neocons, fascists and other spooked flag wavers.

This is something like what I imagined.

Nice to know the Umayyads were Communist, wow.

Implying they would be spontaneously Communist naturally, or that they were before, is silly.

Why do we need to do anything for them?

I thought the point of socialism was to make our lives better, not to altruistically help everyone regardless of whether or not it will benefit us. Are we amoralists or not?

I'd say do it now, as long as they don't turn as consumerist as western women.

I'm kinda asking the same question.

It depends on who you ask. But you can't spread the revolution if you don't look after yourself first and then others, that's for sure.

Like the airplane safety procedure of putting your oxygen mask first so then you can properly help the child next to you with their mask and everything else.

there were massive communist and socialist movements in the middle east before. islamism is a relatively recent reactionary phenomenon .

Not to the point you believe it to be. Much less than everywhere else in the world.

Just look it up and if you still disagree tell me why.

Islam is the next stage after Communism, read Sayyid Qutb

they were de-facto nationalist like basically every third-world Communist movement. romanticization of pan-arabism should probably be re-evaluated.

Literally every middle eastern country (the exceptions are Israel and turkey) implements "sharia" or has a constitution inspired by sharia

What the fuck are you talking about? Kurdish society is conservative as fuck

The ones that came to Lebanon and Turkey still have higher fertility rates than those of natives there and will probably the main demographic before too long.

About 20-50k people left. The majority are here to stay.

Not really sure about any of what you said. But if they are reactionary even to your Middle Eastern standards then it's a pretty serious issue. They will not even leave poorer neighboring nations, much less Europe/America.

Most islamists are of Kurdish background. Sorry to burst your bubble lad

Muslims can be turned into leftists, they aren't inherently more reactionary than other religions.
Kurdish society used to be extremely conservative and many Kurds are still very reactionary in some regards. But the PKK has managed to get millions of supporters anway. There's no reason why this couldn't happen with Muslim populations in Europe.

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You seem to forget they were not religiously homogeneous, unlike the other ones at stake.

Kurds are multi-religious but it's not like they were always secular. Sunni Kurds have oppressed Yazidis and Arameans for centuries.
BTW, some Arab regions are just as religiously diverse as Kurdistan, e.g. Lebanon.
Kurds aren't that different from other Middle Eastern people.

fertility rates go down by second generation
secularism goes up by second generation
alienation goes up by second generation
user you are going a bit Holla Forums with this, treating muslim populations as interchangeable is very misleading. There is quite a difference between Turks and Moroccans and Afghans, for example. They aren't going to act as a single group.
I don't personally think the muslim problem really needs a separate solution from the generic opposition to religion or at least politicised religion.

I mean sure, liberals really don't offer much criticism of Islam, but that's because liberals have massive blindspots when it comes to what they're willing to criticize.

Then again part of the reason for their tendency to not criticize Islam has to do with the fact that reactionaries in the West NEVER shut up about Islam. Their liberalism implores them to defend individual Muslims from being lumped into a single monolith as many reactionaries like to do. I'm mostly thinking of the sort of imagery that most NGOs choose to show from the migrant crisis, mothers with hungry looking kids, compare this to the images one might find on Breitbart of the hordes of brown teenagers looking for Hwite women to rape. Both views are examples of reductive idealism. And honestly man, if you talk like a fucking NPC from Warhammer 2, maybe your critics have a point.

That's why the Lebanese also tend to be bros and actually fight imperialism in a consistent fashion. Don't they tend towards "Arab Socialism" as well?

I don't disagree much with what you said. My point is that they seem to be the only religious group that gets a free pass, and it grinds my gears.

So, liberals and muslims make each other more counter revolutionary by feeding each other's current state (instead of progressing), and actually fueling reactionary sentiments by stereotyping each other like the right does?

I just think they will make our work harder because of such reasons. They fuel the machine of identity politics. As if pawns to provoke the Europeans/Americans to be more nationalist and reactionary, as you start to see in elections…

Also, the porkies could either be using them for cheap labor, or to implode the welfare state and then make the people dependent on corporate interests. Still am not sure, seems like a mix of both.

All this is very strange to me.

Lebanese politics is extremely religion-based. Parties are almost all divided along religious lines. I don't think Arab Socialism or secular nationalism is that big over there but my knowledge of Lebanese politics isn't that great.

I think it is because of the false dichotomy logic of modern politics alludes to:
Politics tends to be a negative project, characterised more by opposition of other political groups than their own programmes. Thus when the alarmist nativists of the Right vilify the muslims the reaction of the Left (leftists and social liberals in this context) is to form in support of the group, despite the generally reactionary views of muslims themselves. This is where the radical left should make a clear break of the liberals - aggressively criticise and oppose the liberal infantilisation of the muslims (muh poor brown man doesn't know rape is bad), which is every bit as racist and dehumanising as the nativists' demonising. Deal with the real, material problems of deprivation and dysfunction, not "muh human rights" or "muh pure nation".

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But I think them being used to heterogeneity made them more cooperative and "progressive" in a good sense, overall.

They tend to be more polite and responsible than the usual Arabs. In my personal social experience of course, personal anecdotes aren't that powerful of an argument.

And Lebanese chicks tend to be qt actually.

I just know that they faced neo-con/Israeli/American interests bravely and kept their sovereignty, without becoming animals like other insurgent groups.
Remember 2006? And now after that, they are fighting the salafists/wahabists in Syria.

^Basically this. But how can it be put into action?

When those proles are religious zealots and reactionaries, it is. Besides giving the right fuel, they become their own conservative muslim movement.

There will be no second generation third generation, they will a majority, they are't going to just take on our culture by osmosis. There's will be the dominant culture, we will take on theres.

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Every society that doesn't exist anymore. Why will Islam become moderate in subsequent generations when it isn't happening now in places like Belgium and England. Let alone when they have replaced the culture they are supposed to absorb liberal values from?

1) proofs that muslims will become majority before a 2nd or 3rd generation (or ever at that)
2) what happens to Islam as an ideology is not that important, what does matter is how people relate to it, which is again material in nature
3) proofs that muslims in the west aren't far more liberal than their counterparts in pakistan, etc. even low-level political shit like alcohol bans which used to be all the rage in christian europe isn't that popular or visible, let alone the death-to-kuffars bogeymen
if by this you are referring to ghettoification I agree that something should be done about it, but it certainly isn't a muslim-only problem

Okay. Such as?

muslims in andalusia conquered spain by force of arms yet they dropped the hijab and the alcohol bans, why wouldn't muslims that enter europe as manual workers and will never become a majority in population or government do the same?
the whole muslim fear is pretty retarded and reeks of pol bullshit.

The "Andalusian tolerance" meme is mostly a myth though.

They were a bit better than most other muslim places, but it is exaggerated.

And enslaved the woman as rape toys

Of course it's not a good idea to bring in masses of people from underdeveloped regions with an alien culture. But it's also not a choice we get to make. Climate change, and the other disruptions caused by the neoliberal chaos we Westerners all suck at the teat of, will make inevitable millions of desperate people trying to get in. They are coming. How we deal with their wanting to come here is one thing, but let us not pretend "bringing them here" has anything to do with it.

Except we are bringing them, right from the coast of Africa. It's insane.

Usually by the hands of porky "NGOs"

Here's what we should be doing: banning all the NGO's, and putting like a 100.000 EU soldiers in Libya and turn it into a huge refugee camp. Yes, it will be teeming with terrorists wanting to take potshots at European soldiers, and the refugee upkeep will be high, but at least we'll have a temporary humanitarian solution. Also support the legitimate Libyan government, because you can't do this unless the Libyan people invite you in.

Your option seems reasonable and valid.

And btw their upkeep will be much cheaper in Libya compared with upkeeping them in Europe.

Not to mention a good jobs program for Europe: right wingers get military careers, and the left wingers can go be case workers and humanitarian assistants or whatever and get a generous EU-wage. Trick the liberal youth into joining up.

Of course. There is a place for everyone in an egalitarian communist state.

Total reactionary psychos are a very small minority, people are just inherently fearful of certain memes.

Otherwise, they just need to be feel their essential needs are met.